Probability vs. Certainty
Jeff's note: this is required reading. Go over it as many times as is necessary to understand that everything - everything - we do deals with probability, and that nothing is black and white.
Picture the following:
Two friends are arguing over the likely outcome of a set of ten coin tosses.One declares - quite sensibly, since these coins are known to be fair - that he expects said coins to be distributed evenly.
The other, more radical in thought, feels that they'll come up all heads but one.
The coins are flipped. Nine heads, one tails.
'Ah', says the second friend, quite happy, 'You were wrong. That's why we flip the coins!'
Pretty silly, right? Everyone knows that, cheating aside, coins have a 50-50 split between heads and tails. This obviously isn't to say that every time that 10 coins are flipped, the result is even. If we flipped 10 coins 10,000 times, we would instead see a distribution that looked something very similar to this curve (except it would be jagged):

This is known as a probability density function, and understanding what these are is vital when assessing the strength of a prediction. A PDF essentially gives the expected probability for a whole random of outcomes. In this case, it's a bell curve, but they can of course look much more complicated, and even bell curves can look very different because of what's called variance (essentially the spread of the data). Obviously, friend #1 was wise to predict 5/5, even though if you look closely a true 50/50 split will only occur 24.6% (252/1024) of the time. 9/1? 1% (10/1024). Using PDFs, you can say things like 'the number of heads is 62% likely to be 5 or less', which would be completely accurate even if it didn't turn out that way the next time you ran the experiment.
'What does this have to do with anything?', you ask yourselves. 'I hate numbers!' a heckler in the back calls out. 'Please won't someone love me?' a strange young boy cries.
Well, the thing is, every half-competant baseball analyst is in the business of thinking in terms of these PDFs. No, things are never going to be as simple as a coin toss - these are athletes playing a sport, not random numbers dancing around a spreadsheet - but that's not a prohibitive barrier with all the research that goes on these days. PECOTA? It's not giving a number, it's giving a curve. That's where things like 10%, 50%, and 75% levels come from. You've got a team's Pythag predicted accurately? Great, then you can generate a PDF and say that they have something like a 70% chance to be within +/- 4 games of that.
We don't deal with certainties when we look at this game. Sometimes, it comes across that way to people who've never seen stuff like this before and then have PECOTA dropped on them, but it's really not true at all - 'I don't think the Mariners have a high chance of making the playoffs' is NOT the same as 'We're not going to make the playoffs'. And it's not just analysts who do this - everyone who thinks about the future does, albeit subconsciously. What do you think a scout is doing when he's evaluating prospects his team might want to pick up in the draft?
Anyway, here's the crux of the matter.
We work in probabalistic terms. This means that when you tease a single number out of us, it's going to be our best guess and will probably be wrong. This does not mean that the prediction curve itself is complete bollocks (although sometimes this is in fact the case).
'That's why we play the games' is not an acceptable response to an argument about probability any more than 'that's why we flip the coins' is. An argument against a prediction must be conducted against that prediction's assumptions, rather than with a 'Well we'll just wait and see what actually happens then' because that's just not how probability works. Challenge the mechanism behind the prediction, not the expected outcome. I'm not saying the situation is as black and white as my hypothetical argument between friends, but invoking that statement means that 2 doesn't really understand that 1 was NOT stating with 100% certainty that 5 coins would come up heads.
He was, after all, perfectly correct even though he was wrong. The illusion of certainty is a ghost that many people would do well to stop chasing.
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You are a very smart and eloquent man.
Maybe Baker will link to this. I doubt it, but maybe.
by acblue on Feb 9, 2008 2:00 PM PST 0 recs
Yes, exactly.
by JI on Feb 9, 2008 2:04 PM PST 0 recs
Hey
those democrats aren't going to defeat themselves..
Oh wait.
(or the other way around)
by PhilKenSebben on Feb 9, 2008 2:19 PM PST 0 recs
Curse you Grey-Ham!
by Coach Owens on Feb 9, 2008 2:21 PM PST 0 recs
Ah.
by Graham on
Feb 9, 2008 2:23 PM PST
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Why you gotta be like that
by Coach Owens on
Feb 9, 2008 2:34 PM PST
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You'd think this would be common sense.
by John Morgan on Feb 9, 2008 2:30 PM PST 0 recs
Totally agree there
I see where they're coming from, but I also definitely see why the average fan would tell them to go fuck themselves and enjoy some baseball.
by Garces on
Feb 9, 2008 2:33 PM PST
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It's the average fan's fault
And most of us rather do enjoy watching baseball.
by Jeff on
Feb 9, 2008 2:39 PM PST
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There's "fault" on both sides
Like I said below, posts like this are great because they attempt to educate with the data - which is a whole different process from presenting data and saying "this is right, and if you don't believe it you're wrong". Which is a factual statement, from a data perspective, but it's a bit off-putting from the "average fan" perspective.
by pdb on
Feb 9, 2008 2:43 PM PST
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That's true.
Where I have a problem is when people come to places like this or USSM and blast us for using too many numbers. That's like waltzing into a Rufus Wainwright show and complaining that he sings too much.
by Jeff on
Feb 9, 2008 2:55 PM PST
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Next time Rufus Wainwright is in town
by Garces on
Feb 9, 2008 2:58 PM PST
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In the academic community...
For what it's worth, I happen to like economists and stat-heads.
by skijake1 on
Feb 9, 2008 3:17 PM PST
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Hey,
by Liebkartoffel on
Feb 9, 2008 3:30 PM PST
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I don't even know what that means
My army of bio-robots will be knocking on your door shortly.
by Graham on
Feb 9, 2008 3:31 PM PST
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Really?
Qualitative analysis, bitches--helping mathematically challenged people sound smart for the past two centuries.
by Liebkartoffel on
Feb 9, 2008 3:56 PM PST
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I'm going to give them anthrax cannons
'So define "it".'
And then I drank some gin.
by Graham on
Feb 9, 2008 3:59 PM PST
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What a cop out.
"Yeah, but how do you know? Isn't knowledge entirely dependent on perception? I mean, when you really think about it, couldn't you just be a figment of my imagination?"...
At which point you punch them in face and respond with:
"Yeah, well, how'd you perceive that motherfucker?"
by Liebkartoffel on
Feb 9, 2008 4:10 PM PST
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He was Scottish
Never punch a Scotsman in the face.
by Graham on
Feb 9, 2008 4:45 PM PST
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Ah,
by Liebkartoffel on
Feb 9, 2008 5:22 PM PST
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We philosophers get a bad rap
by Uncle Ted on
Feb 10, 2008 11:00 AM PST
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Social Sciences
by Edgar for Pres on
Feb 9, 2008 4:36 PM PST
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Of course I would
by Graham on
Feb 9, 2008 4:37 PM PST
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If we were soc majors
by Edgar for Pres on
Feb 9, 2008 5:20 PM PST
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Correction:
...Or did I just prove your point?
by Liebkartoffel on
Feb 9, 2008 5:16 PM PST
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Symbolic Interaction!
(Is also a Sociology major)
by tworsandtwols on
Feb 9, 2008 4:43 PM PST
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Fuck you.
by Librocrat on
Feb 9, 2008 3:59 PM PST
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I tried to stop being an arrogant bastard once
by Graham on
Feb 9, 2008 2:39 PM PST
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And the world is a better place for it.
by pdb on
Feb 9, 2008 2:43 PM PST
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The problem with that logic is that you
"Say you a flip a coin and it comes up heads. Ask the person you are working with what the odds are that the next flip will be tails. If they say anything greater than 50% do not do business with them. They will inevitably fail in business based on their inability to understand probability and independent results."
by Sec 108 on
Feb 9, 2008 2:44 PM PST
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Higher math is not common sense
Which is why posts like this are so valuable - the concept is elusive, but if you sit down and think about it it does make good sense.
And this applies especially to sports fans - for most people, sports is an ESCAPE from things like numbers, probabilities, and bell curves. They craft a sports narrative that fits the heroic model more than it does the mathematical model, and when presented with the math side of things, they refuse to believe it because it doesn't fit their narrative.
Me, on the other hand, I largely choose to ignore the mathematics - but that doesn't mean I don't value them, or want to learn more about them than what I currently know. But, most people, as you say, deal in absolutes, so there's no room for alternative narratives in their world. This doesn't make them retarded, nor is it a weakness; people enjoy things up to the level that makes them happy, and that's fine. More power to them.
Rather than take the intolerant/elitist approach, point your non-stat friends to posts like Graham's, and some of the USSM stuff - don't demonize, educate.
by pdb on
Feb 9, 2008 2:39 PM PST
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I'd definitely bring them to LL
Bringing statistics and probability into the game DOES enhance the experience in the way that rooting for players on your Fantasy Football teams does or throwing down cash at the sports book enhances the viewing of whatever your betting on.
Which reminds me: I need to gamble more often!
by Garces on
Feb 9, 2008 2:43 PM PST
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I think that first line
I blame the California sun.
by Garces on
Feb 9, 2008 2:45 PM PST
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I always love getting the line
Whenever that comes up, I just point the other person to the broken IKEA chair.
by Jeff on
Feb 9, 2008 2:58 PM PST
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Agreed
Nobody can resist a bowl full of skittles.
by Garces on
Feb 9, 2008 3:00 PM PST
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The two advanced stats
But then again, I was always more an M&M guy than a Skittles guy anyway.
by pdb on
Feb 9, 2008 3:04 PM PST
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Something we can all agree on
by Garces on
Feb 9, 2008 3:06 PM PST
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a-frickin-men
by pdb on
Feb 9, 2008 3:07 PM PST
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Both of you had better
by Goose on
Feb 9, 2008 4:17 PM PST
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I strongly disagree!
by kentroyals5 on
Feb 9, 2008 3:08 PM PST
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I think Win Probability is more fun after a game
And peanut butter M&M's are delicious. (This is NOT a new diary topic.)
by Jeff on
Feb 9, 2008 3:10 PM PST
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You should have a
by kentroyals5 on
Feb 9, 2008 3:24 PM PST
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They are not nearly as good as
by Edgar for Pres on
Feb 9, 2008 4:39 PM PST
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Here's the thing though...
by John Morgan on
Feb 9, 2008 3:10 PM PST
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It's uncertainty.
Plus, by holding an opinion, they're introducing a confirmation bias into their future discovery of evidence, so even if they learn the truth later they might not believe it.
This is how religion works. People don't know how the universe functions, so they believe a story that explains it all even though there's no good reason to reach that conclusion.
Statistical probability goes completely over most people's heads because it measures the uncertainty. Since they can't accept that uncertainty ever exists, any attempt to measure it must therefore be fabrication. If the outcome of the Superbowl happened as it did, then there must be an explanation as to why, and a typical person will choose an explanation that fits the outcome regardless of whether its supported by any data.
When Billy Beane said "my shit doesn't work in the playoffs", his point was that the outcome of the playoffs, from his point of view, was unexplained variance. BP's Joe Sheehan has put it better by saying, "In a short series between two playoff calibre teams, any result is reasonably likely." But since both of these contain explicit recognition of uncertainty, the average person doesn't actually understand what's being said.
Given that the average person doesn't understand any line of reasoning where the outcome is uncertain, is it any surprise when they don't understand the point Graham is making here? And isn't it scary that we let them vote?
by Llewdor on
Feb 9, 2008 10:32 PM PST
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That's the attitude right there
Just because people may not understand that line of reasoning is no reason to be arrogant. You're not a better person than me just because you grasp that concept faster than I do.
by pdb on
Feb 10, 2008 8:00 AM PST
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It's not arrogance if I'm right
This is demonstrably true.
by Llewdor on
Feb 10, 2008 11:36 AM PST
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Yes, it is
As I said, just because you may be better than me at grasping a particular concept does not make you a better person than me, nor does it allow you to judge my ability like you do when you say "isn't it scary that we let them vote?".
by pdb on
Feb 10, 2008 12:40 PM PST
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Being a "better person"
As for the voting comment, that's only assholish if you think voting is some sort of fundamental right that should never be withheld from anyone (so my suggestion that it be withheld is abhorrent). But I certainly never espoused that opinion.
Since one of the more important jobs of a government is to act as an economic steward, and most economics relies on just these sorts of probabilistic measurments, allowing people who can't understand the math behind the decisions to influence the decisions is crazy.
by Llewdor on
Feb 10, 2008 1:25 PM PST
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That's interesting
So in your world, only an educated elite should have any say in the direction of a representative democracy? Interesting.
Or, put another way: If you don't know how the engineering of a combustion engine works, should you be allowed to operate a car?
by pdb on
Feb 10, 2008 5:01 PM PST
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Not disagreeing with you.
Extrapolating, he's (probably) saying that economists should run the economy. The equivalent argument to the car you brought up would be "noone but economists should be able to have or use money".
by Faux on
Feb 11, 2008 9:11 AM PST
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Maybe I misunderstood
allowing people who can't understand the math behind the decisions to influence the decisions is crazy.
I read that as saying if I don't understand higher economic theory/mathematics, I should not be allowed to have a say in how those theories get applied (as in, I should not be able to vote). The car thing was kind of a stretch, but what i was thinking was that it is like driving - when I drive, I need to make decisions about proper speed, acceleration rate (when passing), braking, and the like.
I have no idea how, when I press the gas or brake pedal, the speed increases or decreases; I just know it does. And the fact that I don't know how the speed increases does not make me any less competent of a driver than my brother-in-law, the mechanical engineer, who probably does understand.
Voting's the same way - I don't need to know how to apply economic theory in order to be able to cast a vote. Does it help? Maybe. But should it be a requirement? Never.
by pdb on
Feb 11, 2008 10:03 AM PST
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Not to step on toes
-Lets say you happen to own stock in Car Company X (CCX). The board of directors recently decided they want to come up with a brand new clean-energy car line, but they're undecided as to which clean-energy to pursue so they're going to put it to a shareholder's vote. You have the right, in this case, to vote on the decision, but should you?
Or, to put it another way, you say:
when I drive, I need to make decisions about proper speed, acceleration rate (when passing), braking, and the like.
But you did go to some sort of school for that. Either driver's ed or possibly you were taught by a parent, whatever. There was training involved. We don't let people who haven't passed a driving test drive, so why do we let people who haven't passed an economics test vote on economic policy?
I think that's more of what he's saying.
by Matthew on
Feb 11, 2008 10:13 AM PST
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Yeah, I think I get it
You could extend that argument even further, and say that if you aren't a trained educator, you shouldn't be able to vote for your school board, or if you haven't studied the law you shouldn't be able to vote for judges; before long, you're back to the "landed gentry" concept where only a small percentage of the educated elite (read: rich white men) are entitled to cast a vote.
by pdb on
Feb 11, 2008 10:21 AM PST
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I don't think judges should be elected
by Llewdor on
Feb 11, 2008 10:31 AM PST
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I agree, actually
by pdb on
Feb 11, 2008 10:43 AM PST
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Yeah, it's a "slippery slope" problem
by Matthew on
Feb 11, 2008 10:40 AM PST
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Don't mistake my fervent defense
by pdb on
Feb 11, 2008 10:44 AM PST
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I'm not willing to concede that the people
So on one side you have a small group of knowledgeable people making decisions, while on the other side you have a much larger group making uninformed decisions. I can't honestly say that the democratic option looks superior.
by Llewdor on
Feb 12, 2008 10:12 AM PST
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I would say if you are part of the landed gentry
Also, just because many people choose not to educate themselves (not everyone, but American Idol does destroy CSPAN in ratings), doesn't mean the theory of democracy isn't good. You probably know that about 1/2 the population votes and the more educated a person is, the more likely that person will vote. I believe the key to a well functioning democracy is successfully educating and empowering the population.
by Jed MC on
Feb 12, 2008 10:26 AM PST
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It's not about better or worse
The problem with the landed gentry was that they had no incentive to make decisions that benefitted anyone but themselves.
This is what I like to call "human nature", and it would b ethe same today as it was then. This is the best argument for allowing everyone to vote that there is. If only one group is allowed to express opinions, of course those opinions will benefit themselves and themselves only; if every group has that right, the effect is diluted to a point where everyone seems willing to live with it.
by pdb on
Feb 12, 2008 10:31 AM PST
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In an ideal world.
by Matthew on
Feb 12, 2008 12:17 PM PST
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an anonymous person
I know it's pedantic, but I find it humorous how interchangeably the term democracy is used for our republic and how we're a lot closer to an oligarchy than most people realize.
You vote in a primary, to elect delegates to the convention, who, depending on the state, may not even be required to vote per the primary results, which in turn selects the candidate, who goes into the national election (only if it's one of the two main parties) where the public votes again, but for electors who then actually vote to elect the president, and again, they may not be bound to vote as the public in their state did.
Toss in voter fraud and the screwed up system where we only have two parties, nomination within those parties are partly (I'd argue mostly) controlled by the media (see: debates) and lobbyists/PACs and really, are we anything close to a democracy?
by Matthew on
Feb 12, 2008 12:26 PM PST
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We're pretty damn close
As for elections being a national holiday, it's a great idea - I'd go a step further, and do what Australia does. Australia requires their citizens to vote, or it's a $100 fine. They can vote for whoever they want, but they are compelled by law to do so.
by pdb on
Feb 12, 2008 1:33 PM PST
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god no
by Matthew on
Feb 12, 2008 1:36 PM PST
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On what basis?
If you vote regularly anyway, what difference would it make if there were a law making it compulsory? And if you don't vote, you would now have an economic incentive to do so.

