Lookout Landing: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:





Probability vs. Certainty

Jeff's note: this is required reading. Go over it as many times as is necessary to understand that everything - everything - we do deals with probability, and that nothing is black and white.

Picture the following:

Two friends are arguing over the likely outcome of a set of ten coin tosses.

One declares - quite sensibly, since these coins are known to be fair - that he expects said coins to be distributed evenly.

The other, more radical in thought, feels that they'll come up all heads but one.

The coins are flipped. Nine heads, one tails.

'Ah', says the second friend, quite happy, 'You were wrong. That's why we flip the coins!'

Pretty silly, right? Everyone knows that, cheating aside, coins have a 50-50 split between heads and tails. This obviously isn't to say that every time that 10 coins are flipped, the result is even. If we flipped 10 coins 10,000 times, we would instead see a distribution that looked something very similar to this curve (except it would be jagged):

This is known as a probability density function, and understanding what these are is vital when assessing the strength of a prediction. A PDF essentially gives the expected probability for a whole random of outcomes. In this case, it's a bell curve, but they can of course look much more complicated, and even bell curves can look very different because of what's called variance (essentially the spread of the data). Obviously, friend #1 was wise to predict 5/5, even though if you look closely a true 50/50 split will only occur 24.6% (252/1024) of the time. 9/1? 1% (10/1024). Using PDFs, you can say things like 'the number of heads is 62% likely to be 5 or less', which would be completely accurate even if it didn't turn out that way the next time you ran the experiment.

'What does this have to do with anything?', you ask yourselves. 'I hate numbers!' a heckler in the back calls out. 'Please won't someone love me?' a strange young boy cries.

Well, the thing is, every half-competant baseball analyst is in the business of thinking in terms of these PDFs. No, things are never going to be as simple as a coin toss - these are athletes playing a sport, not random numbers dancing around a spreadsheet - but that's not a prohibitive barrier with all the research that goes on these days. PECOTA? It's not giving a number, it's giving a curve. That's where things like 10%, 50%, and 75% levels come from. You've got a team's Pythag predicted accurately? Great, then you can generate a PDF and say that they have something like a 70% chance to be within +/- 4 games of that.

We don't deal with certainties when we look at this game. Sometimes, it comes across that way to people who've never seen stuff like this before and then have PECOTA dropped on them, but it's really not true at all - 'I don't think the Mariners have a high chance of making the playoffs' is NOT the same as 'We're not going to make the playoffs'. And it's not just analysts who do this - everyone who thinks about the future does, albeit subconsciously. What do you think a scout is doing when he's evaluating prospects his team might want to pick up in the draft?

Anyway, here's the crux of the matter.

We work in probabalistic terms. This means that when you tease a single number out of us, it's going to be our best guess and will probably be wrong. This does not mean that the prediction curve itself is complete bollocks (although sometimes this is in fact the case).

'That's why we play the games' is not an acceptable response to an argument about probability any more than 'that's why we flip the coins' is. An argument against a prediction must be conducted against that prediction's assumptions, rather than with a 'Well we'll just wait and see what actually happens then' because that's just not how probability works. Challenge the mechanism behind the prediction, not the expected outcome. I'm not saying the situation is as black and white as my hypothetical argument between friends, but invoking that statement means that 2 doesn't really understand that 1 was NOT stating with 100% certainty that 5 coins would come up heads.

He was, after all, perfectly correct even though he was wrong. The illusion of certainty is a ghost that many people would do well to stop chasing.

0 recs | Comment 262 comments

Story-email Email | Print |

Comments

Display:

You are a very smart and eloquent man.
I wish there was a pocket version of this post that I could carry around with me at all times so that when I try to explain these concepts to people I could make a lick of sense.

Maybe Baker will link to this. I doubt it, but maybe.

--aaron c.

by acblue on Feb 9, 2008 2:00 PM PST   0 recs

Yes, exactly.
"You know, as that was coming out of my mouth, I knew that it was wrong."

by JI on Feb 9, 2008 2:04 PM PST   0 recs

Hey, great
Is it April yet?

by Garces on Feb 9, 2008 2:12 PM PST   0 recs

Hey
Go vote those of us north of the columbia.

those democrats aren't going to defeat themselves..

Oh wait.

(or the other way around)

This is me not lurking.

by PhilKenSebben on Feb 9, 2008 2:19 PM PST   0 recs

Curse you Grey-Ham!
"Kruger! My son tells me, your company shtinks!"-Frank Costanza.

by Coach Owens on Feb 9, 2008 2:21 PM PST   0 recs

Ah.
The strange young boy mentioned in the post makes an appearance.

by Graham on Feb 9, 2008 2:23 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Why you gotta be like that
Grey-Ham? :*(
"Kruger! My son tells me, your company shtinks!"-Frank Costanza.

by Coach Owens on Feb 9, 2008 2:34 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

You'd think this would be common sense.
But it's not. Football Outsiders correctly argued this last Super Bowl was one of the largest mismatches ever, but when the Giants won countless people took that as proof that their system doesn't work. Or, worse, is fabricated. I hate to be intolerant or elitist, but some people seem, if not incapable, at least retarded from thinking in anything but absolutes. I fear you cannot simply explain away that weakness.
You can ching ching ching cash in on this tragedy.

by John Morgan on Feb 9, 2008 2:30 PM PST   0 recs

Totally agree there
That said, the arrogance of the Statistics crowd on certain sites around this fine internet has become pretty nauseating.

I see where they're coming from, but I also definitely see why the average fan would tell them to go fuck themselves and enjoy some baseball.

by Garces on Feb 9, 2008 2:33 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

It's the average fan's fault
for engaging the statistics crowd in conversation.

And most of us rather do enjoy watching baseball.

by Jeff on Feb 9, 2008 2:39 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

There's "fault" on both sides
the "average fan" should know what they're getting into, but in a lot of cases, the statistics crowd can come off as sounding so sure of themselves that everyone else is automatically not just wrong, but a lesser fan because of it, and that's where I have a disconnect.

Like I said below, posts like this are great because they attempt to educate with the data - which is a whole different process from presenting data and saying "this is right, and if you don't believe it you're wrong".  Which is a factual statement, from a data perspective, but it's a bit off-putting from the "average fan" perspective.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Feb 9, 2008 2:43 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

That's true.
The numbers crowd can definitely have an air of haughtiness from time to time. (I wonder if this isn't in part due to the fact that there's an inverse relationship between scientific/numerical aptitude and the ability to write.)

Where I have a problem is when people come to places like this or USSM and blast us for using too many numbers. That's like waltzing into a Rufus Wainwright show and complaining that he sings too much.

by Jeff on Feb 9, 2008 2:55 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Next time Rufus Wainwright is in town
I'm waltzing all over that bitch.

by Garces on Feb 9, 2008 2:58 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

In the academic community...
(and I don't meant to get too obtuse) this same thing plays itself out between economists and every other social scientist at conferences.  The economist is the stats guy.  He explains his position--often, though not always, in a belligerent fashion--and then loses his patience and gives everyone the academic iteration of the bird.

For what it's worth, I happen to like economists and stat-heads.

by skijake1 on Feb 9, 2008 3:17 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Hehe
Social scientists.

by Graham on Feb 9, 2008 3:19 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Hey,
Speaking as a Soc. major, watch your mouth, or I might just have to go symbolic-interactionist on your ass.

by Liebkartoffel on Feb 9, 2008 3:30 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I don't even know what that means
But I assume it's some sort of threat.

My army of bio-robots will be knocking on your door shortly.

by Graham on Feb 9, 2008 3:31 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Really?
What significance do you attach to bio-robots? Is it socially appropriate for them to be "knocking at my door" or are they a fundamentally deviant construction? Your choice of the word "door" intrigues me. Do we both attach the same significance to this symbolic door? What does it symbolize--keeping you out or me in? What other barriers are there between us in our relationship as blog commenters? Are there other shared symbols that we employ to further define said relationship? What are they? Is it a dynamic or static relationship? What about blogs? What types of norms and collective behaviors have evolved in blog culture? Does your behavior change within the concept of this blog? Or toward Jeff, the officially established authority figure? What about unofficial authority figures? Where do you feel you fit in within the blog's hierarchy? Do you feel that you're treated differently due to your status? Why?...And I could go on.

Qualitative analysis, bitches--helping mathematically challenged people sound smart for the past two centuries.

by Liebkartoffel on Feb 9, 2008 3:56 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I'm going to give them anthrax cannons
At least you're not a philosopher, though. My last argument with one involved me laying out an argument for 5 minutes, and him replying with:

'So define "it".'

And then I drank some gin.

by Graham on Feb 9, 2008 3:59 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

What a cop out.
The standard philosophy argument toward anything confusing sounding or "sciency" is to reply:

"Yeah, but how do you know? Isn't knowledge entirely dependent on perception? I mean, when you really think about it, couldn't you just be a figment of my imagination?"...

At which point you punch them in face and respond with:

"Yeah, well, how'd you perceive that motherfucker?"

by Liebkartoffel on Feb 9, 2008 4:10 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

He was Scottish
The last time I've seen a Scottish person angry, he kicked down the front door of a house and then pissed on a policeman.

Never punch a Scotsman in the face.

by Graham on Feb 9, 2008 4:45 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Ah,
Well, the implied corollary is that all bets are off when it comes to Scots.

by Liebkartoffel on Feb 9, 2008 5:22 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

We philosophers get a bad rap
Speaking as a professional philosopher I can promise you that most of us aren't like this.  As for the economists, I love what they do so long as they remember that they aren't engaged in a normative discipline and they stick to making predictive models.  Economists are too quick to use words like "rational" innapropriately, implying that what is rational is simply what maximizes ones own preferences.  In short, economists, keep making models leave the normative stuff to philosophers, that's our turf.

by Uncle Ted on Feb 10, 2008 11:00 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Social Sciences
tend to disguise simple concepts with large words.  I'm sure you'd understand it.

by Edgar for Pres on Feb 9, 2008 4:36 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Of course I would
But I'm an engineer and therefore chronically lazy.

by Graham on Feb 9, 2008 4:37 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

If we were soc majors
we'd call it being time efficent.

by Edgar for Pres on Feb 9, 2008 5:20 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Correction:
Social sciences describe various phenomena that the general populace take for granted but never bother to identify because they're chronically incapable of describing their or other's behavior.

...Or did I just prove your point?

by Liebkartoffel on Feb 9, 2008 5:16 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Symbolic Interaction!
God, this blog has got it all!

(Is also a Sociology major)

by tworsandtwols on Feb 9, 2008 4:43 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Nice.
Three cheers for Erving Goffman!

by Liebkartoffel on Feb 9, 2008 5:30 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Fuck you.
Any time you want to act like an idiot while drunk, I'll point to expectancy theory and laugh at you.
...and now I'm here

by Librocrat on Feb 9, 2008 3:59 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

The problem with that logic is that you
set yourself up to be taken advantage of.  I had a stats prof who said a very profound thing that has always stuck with me.  

"Say you a flip a coin and it comes up heads.  Ask the person you are working with what the odds are that the next flip will be tails.  If they say anything greater than 50% do not do business with them.  They will inevitably fail in business based on their inability to understand probability and independent results."

by Sec 108 on Feb 9, 2008 2:44 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Higher math is not common sense
I have never grown up thinking in numerical terms - my mother was a Spanish teacher and my dad had a Ph.D in psychology, and worked in the public school system most of his life.  So, while I'm OK with basic math, things like this are by no means common sense or easily intuited by a lot of people.

Which is why posts like this are so valuable - the concept is elusive, but if you sit down and think about it it does make good sense.

And this applies especially to sports fans - for most people, sports is an ESCAPE from things like numbers, probabilities, and bell curves.  They craft a sports narrative that fits the heroic model more than it does the mathematical model, and when presented with the math side of things, they refuse to believe it because it doesn't fit their narrative.

Me, on the other hand, I largely choose to ignore the mathematics - but that doesn't mean I don't value them, or want to learn more about them than what I currently know.  But, most people, as you say, deal in absolutes, so there's no room for alternative narratives in their world.  This doesn't make them retarded, nor is it a weakness; people enjoy things up to the level that makes them happy, and that's fine.  More power to them.

Rather than take the intolerant/elitist approach, point your non-stat friends to posts like Graham's, and some of the USSM stuff - don't demonize, educate.  

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Feb 9, 2008 2:39 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I'd definitely bring them to LL
But I wouldn't link them to USSM unless I wasn't planning on being their friend for very much longer.

Bringing statistics and probability into the game DOES enhance the experience in the way that rooting for players on your Fantasy Football teams does or throwing down cash at the sports book enhances the viewing of whatever your betting on.

Which reminds me: I need to gamble more often!

by Garces on Feb 9, 2008 2:43 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I think that first line
Might just be the clunkiest ever sentence written.

I blame the California sun.

by Garces on Feb 9, 2008 2:45 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I always love getting the line
about how numbers detract from a person's ability to get into the game.

Whenever that comes up, I just point the other person to the broken IKEA chair.

by Jeff on Feb 9, 2008 2:58 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Agreed
It's a huge boost to the enjoyment of baseball, more than any other sport.  As silly as win probability is, it's like a bowl full of skittles.

Nobody can resist a bowl full of skittles.

by Garces on Feb 9, 2008 3:00 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

The two advanced stats
I don't ever really follow are pythag and win probability.  Pythag, because I don't get the point of it (and I'll go dig up the post where I asked the question, I don't want this to get into what value Pythag has), and win probability, because frankly, when the M's are down 7-1 in the 7th inning of an away game, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that they have a good chance of actually losing that game, so WP doesn't really add much to my enjoyment of the game because quantifying that probability is just depressing.  

But then again, I was always more an M&M guy than a Skittles guy anyway.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Feb 9, 2008 3:04 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Something we can all agree on
The peanut butter M&Ms were a mistake.

by Garces on Feb 9, 2008 3:06 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

a-frickin-men
those things were bad.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Feb 9, 2008 3:07 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Both of you had better
shut your motherfucking mouths right now. Them be fighting words.
These pretzels....are making me thirsty!

by Goose on Feb 9, 2008 4:17 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I strongly disagree!
I fucking hate you Mariners

by kentroyals5 on Feb 9, 2008 3:08 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I think Win Probability is more fun after a game
when you're able to look back on a chart and see how much it mirrored your emotions.

And peanut butter M&M's are delicious. (This is NOT a new diary topic.)

by Jeff on Feb 9, 2008 3:10 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

You should have a
'buy author some peanut butter m&m's' button
I fucking hate you Mariners

by kentroyals5 on Feb 9, 2008 3:24 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Here's the thing though...
You don't need proficiency in math to understand Graham's point. You need only to understand that something can be predictable without being certain. I've met so, so many people who can't wrap their head around that idea. I wholly disagree that it's not a weakness, too. To me, this is exactly the type of logic that allows someone to drink and drive, succeed, and thus conclude that they are somehow capable of drinking and driving when others are not.
You can ching ching ching cash in on this tragedy.

by John Morgan on Feb 9, 2008 3:10 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

It's uncertainty.
people seemingly can't abide uncertainty.  If they don't know the answer to something, they tend to pick one and then believe it firmly, regardless of whether that opinion is supported by the evidence.

Plus, by holding an opinion, they're introducing a confirmation bias into their future discovery of evidence, so even if they learn the truth later they might not believe it.

This is how religion works.  People don't know how the universe functions, so they believe a story that explains it all even though there's no good reason to reach that conclusion.

Statistical probability goes completely over most people's heads because it measures the uncertainty.  Since they can't accept that uncertainty ever exists, any attempt to measure it must therefore be fabrication.  If the outcome of the Superbowl happened as it did, then there must be an explanation as to why, and a typical person will choose an explanation that fits the outcome regardless of whether its supported by any data.

When Billy Beane said "my shit doesn't work in the playoffs", his point was that the outcome of the playoffs, from his point of view, was unexplained variance.  BP's Joe Sheehan has put it better by saying, "In a short series between two playoff calibre teams, any result is reasonably likely."  But since both of these contain explicit recognition of uncertainty, the average person doesn't actually understand what's being said.

Given that the average person doesn't understand any line of reasoning where the outcome is uncertain, is it any surprise when they don't understand the point Graham is making here?  And isn't it scary that we let them vote?

by Llewdor on Feb 9, 2008 10:32 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

That's the attitude right there
Given that the average person doesn't understand any line of reasoning where the outcome is uncertain, is it any surprise when they don't understand the point Graham is making here?  And isn't it scary that we let them vote?

Just because people may not understand that line of reasoning is no reason to be arrogant.  You're not a better person than me just because you grasp that concept faster than I do.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Feb 10, 2008 8:00 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

It's not arrogance if I'm right
Furthermore, if I grasp a concept faster than you, then I am better than you (at grasping that concept).

This is demonstrably true.

by Llewdor on Feb 10, 2008 11:36 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Yes, it is
You can be right without being superior about it.  Comments like "isn't it scary that we let them vote?" are just assholish.  

As I said, just because you may be better than me at grasping a particular concept does not make you a better person than me, nor does it allow you to judge my ability like you do when you say "isn't it scary that we let them vote?".

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Feb 10, 2008 12:40 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Being a "better person"
is a meaningless designation without a more detailed definition.

As for the voting comment, that's only assholish if you think voting is some sort of fundamental right that should never be withheld from anyone (so my suggestion that it be withheld is abhorrent).  But I certainly never espoused that opinion.

Since one of the more important jobs of a government is to act as an economic steward, and most economics relies on just these sorts of probabilistic measurments, allowing people who can't understand the math behind the decisions to influence the decisions is crazy.

by Llewdor on Feb 10, 2008 1:25 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

That's interesting
allowing people who can't understand the math behind the decisions to influence the decisions is crazy.

So in your world, only an educated elite should have any say in the direction of a representative democracy?  Interesting.  

Or, put another way:  If you don't know how the engineering of a combustion engine works, should you be allowed to operate a car?

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Feb 10, 2008 5:01 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Not disagreeing with you.
But that's the completely wrong argument. He's arguing that you shouldn't allow people that don't know how an Internal Combustion Engine works to design one.

Extrapolating, he's (probably) saying that economists should run the economy. The equivalent argument to the car you brought up would be "noone but economists should be able to have or use money".

by Faux on Feb 11, 2008 9:11 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Maybe I misunderstood
but when he said:

allowing people who can't understand the math behind the decisions to influence the decisions is crazy.

I read that as saying if I don't understand higher economic theory/mathematics, I should not be allowed to have a say in how those theories get applied (as in, I should not be able to vote).  The car thing was kind of a stretch, but what i was thinking was that it is like driving - when I drive, I need to make decisions about proper speed, acceleration rate (when passing), braking, and the like.  

I have no idea how, when I press the gas or brake pedal, the speed increases or decreases; I just know it does.  And the fact that I don't know how the speed increases does not make me any less competent of a driver than my brother-in-law, the mechanical engineer, who probably does understand.

Voting's the same way - I don't need to know how to apply economic theory in order to be able to cast a vote.  Does it help?  Maybe.  But should it be a requirement?  Never.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Feb 11, 2008 10:03 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Not to step on toes
But I just think those are two fundementally different analogies. The way I see it, to stick with your car one:

-Lets say you happen to own stock in Car Company X (CCX). The board of directors recently decided they want to come up with a brand new clean-energy car line, but they're undecided as to which clean-energy to pursue so they're going to put it to a shareholder's vote. You have the right, in this case, to vote on the decision, but should you?

Or, to put it another way, you say:
when I drive, I need to make decisions about proper speed, acceleration rate (when passing), braking, and the like.

But you did go to some sort of school for that. Either driver's ed or possibly you were taught by a parent, whatever. There was training involved. We don't let people who haven't passed a driving test drive, so why do we let people who haven't passed an economics test vote on economic policy?

I think that's more of what he's saying.

by Matthew on Feb 11, 2008 10:13 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, I think I get it
but I tend to get a little sensitive when I start hearing ideas that would restrict people's rights to vote.  We let people who haven't passed an economics test vote on economic policy because it's a fundamental right of all Americans to be able to vote - with no preconditions or tests.

You could extend that argument even further, and say that if you aren't a trained educator, you shouldn't be able to vote for your school board, or if you haven't studied the law you shouldn't be able to vote for judges; before long, you're back to the "landed gentry" concept where only a small percentage of the educated elite (read: rich white men) are entitled to cast a vote.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Feb 11, 2008 10:21 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

I don't think judges should be elected
but that's a different argument, and not one we need to have here.

by Llewdor on Feb 11, 2008 10:31 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

I agree, actually
but as long as they are, I want to be able to have a say.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Feb 11, 2008 10:43 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, it's a "slippery slope" problem
but I don't think that makes the argument/opinion any less valid, though naturally that's my opinion and I've never put much faith in the voting process in modern America.

by Matthew on Feb 11, 2008 10:40 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Don't mistake my fervent defense
as an endorsement of how elections work.  In this country, they largely don't.  But I don't think that's the fault of the electorate and its ignorance as much as it is a fault of the system and its entrenchment of the status quo.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Feb 11, 2008 10:44 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

I'm not willing to concede that the people
generally make better decisions than the landed gentry would.  The problem with the landed gentry was that they had no incentive to make decisions that benefitted anyone but themselves.

So on one side you have a small group of knowledgeable people making decisions, while on the other side you have a much larger group making uninformed decisions.  I can't honestly say that the democratic option looks superior.

by Llewdor on Feb 12, 2008 10:12 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

I would say if you are part of the landed gentry
then go with the oligarchy.  If not, go with democracy.

Also, just because many people choose not to educate themselves (not everyone, but American Idol does destroy CSPAN in ratings), doesn't mean the theory of democracy isn't good.  You probably know that about 1/2 the population votes and the more educated a person is, the more likely that person will vote.  I believe the key to a well functioning democracy is successfully educating and empowering the population.

by Jed MC on Feb 12, 2008 10:26 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

It's not about better or worse
it's about the ability to choose for yourself.  If the right to vote is suddenly taken from me, for whatever reason (I didn't take physics, I'm not a lawyer, whatever), why should I trust that some anonymous person has my best interest in mind?  

The problem with the landed gentry was that they had no incentive to make decisions that benefitted anyone but themselves.

This is what I like to call "human nature", and it would b ethe same today as it was then.  This is the best argument for allowing everyone to vote that there is.  If only one group is allowed to express opinions, of course those opinions will benefit themselves and themselves only; if every group has that right, the effect is diluted to a point where everyone seems willing to live with it.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Feb 12, 2008 10:31 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

In an ideal world.
I still cannot fathom why election day is not a national holiday.

by Matthew on Feb 12, 2008 12:17 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

an anonymous person
like say, a delegate or elector?

I know it's pedantic, but I find it humorous how interchangeably the term democracy is used for our republic and how we're a lot closer to an oligarchy than most people realize.

You vote in a primary, to elect delegates to the convention, who, depending on the state, may not even be required to vote per the primary results, which in turn selects the candidate, who goes into the national election (only if it's one of the two main parties) where the public votes again, but for electors who then actually vote to elect the president, and again, they may not be bound to vote as the public in their state did.

Toss in voter fraud and the screwed up system where we only have two parties, nomination within those parties are partly (I'd argue mostly) controlled by the media (see: debates) and lobbyists/PACs and really, are we anything close to a democracy?

by Matthew on Feb 12, 2008 12:26 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

We're pretty damn close
on the city/county/state level.  Presidential elections are not close.  The easy way to fix that is to lose the electoral college entirely, but then there's still the media/lobbyists/PACS to deal with; but abolishing the electoral college would be a good start.

As for elections being a national holiday, it's a great idea - I'd go a step further, and do what Australia does.  Australia requires their citizens to vote, or it's a $100 fine.  They can vote for whoever they want, but they are compelled by law to do so.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Feb 12, 2008 1:33 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

god no
I'd vehemently oppose being required to vote.

by Matthew on Feb 12, 2008 1:36 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

On what basis?
(not being snarky, just genuinely curious)

If you vote regularly anyway, what difference would it make if there were a law making it compulsory?  And if you don't vote, you would now have an economic incentive to do so.