Lookout Landing: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Around SBN: Getting Marshawn Lynch touches is key for Bills' success Bar-right-arrows



A Reconciliation

It occurred to me earlier today that my stance on the Bedard rumor might be causing a little confusion. It's one thing to say that you don't want to give up Adam Jones as part of a package, but then to turn around and agree with Dave that you'd give up any number of other young players to land the same guy? Those two positions seem more than a little contradictory. Either a pitcher is worth a lot, or he isn't, right?

My rationalization is two-fold. For one thing, Jones has - by a fair margin - the best odds of any of our young players of turning into a solid, long-term regular. He's proven the most. Morrow has a great fastball but limited offspeed stuff and zero experience starting games professionally. Balentien still has things to work on in AAA, and will never be Jones' equal in the field. Triunfel has all the potential in the world, but he's miles away. Tillman's 19 and hasn't touched AA. Clement has to get a little better at the plate (albeit not much) while proving that he can stick behind it. Tui's still waiting on his power. And so on and so forth. There are a lot of guys with a lot of promise in this system - seriously, we're in pretty good shape - but Jones is the only one who's ready to be a good regular right now. The further away a prospect is from that point, the lower his odds of making it, and therefore the easier it is to trade him. It doesn't mean you won't go on to regret it, but your chances of wishing you never gave up that great player are lower with a package excluding Jones than they would be with a package including him.

My second reason - and I still can't decide which of these is more important - is that there comes a point at which a team is justified in overpaying for an impact player in order to better its chances of winning in the short-term. A point at which the benefit (greatly improving your immediate playoff odds) begins to outweigh the cost (all the talent you're giving up). Detroit's not a bad example. I believe that, in a situation in which they're able to keep Adam Jones, the Mariners are at or around that point. If you add Bedard to this team and keep Jones in right, they're neck and neck with the Angels in true talent, which puts them in good position. However, if you take Jones away, then you're back to being a few wins worse, because the replacements aren't as good. And in that situation I don't think you've improved your odds enough to justify the expense.

Where you stand on this trade depends primarily (but not exclusively) on (A) how highly you think of Adam Jones, and (B) where you place the threshold described in the last paragraph. That is, the location of the point at which the short-term benefit outweighs the cost. If you think a 10% chance of going to the playoffs is good enough to go all out, you've probably been bullish on this deal from the start. If your level is 50%, you're less in favor. And if you only support making a trade like this on the condition that the player you bring back makes you the Series favorite, you've presumably convinced yourself that this is completely retarded. You already know what I think.

Despite all the heated debates in so many different places, though, I know for a fact that there's one thing on which we can all agree -

This just needs to be over.

0 recs | Comment 30 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

I am with Dave
Bedard in return for anyone else would be ok for me. I gotta think that once Bedard puts up some nice numbers thanks to Safeco and hopefully improving M's D, he resigns here, at top dollar of course, just recognizing that he can become and icon even starting in Seattle in his thirties ala Moyer.

But... I also want to keep Wlad, mainly because he is Felix' best friend and I want to keep him very happy.

I nearly said 'satisfied' but that was a little too homoerotic for me. Although given the choice, El Rey would be on the short list of men I'd go gay for.

Stop. Drinking. Now.

by hcoguy on Jan 17, 2008 10:10 PM PST   0 recs

Item C
Where you stand on this trade depends primarily (but not exclusively) on (A) how highly you think of Adam Jones, and (B) where you place the threshold described in the last paragraph.

It also depends on (C) how you regard Balentien as a replacement for Jones.  There is a substantial community in the Ms blogosphere that believes there the difference in value between having Balentien is RF vs Jones in RF is sufficiently small that there is little net loss in RF from dealing Jones.

Not saying I concur - just saying there are Mariners mavens who have that opinion.

by Steve Nelson on Jan 17, 2008 10:19 PM PST   0 recs

I wish that were true.
That would be sweet.
Babies hate me.

by Librocrat on Jan 17, 2008 10:21 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

To borrow a 'phrase'
:daps:

Spot on, Steve!  That's a very important addition...

Ill Ligitamus Non Carberendum

by PositivePaul on Jan 17, 2008 10:40 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

After watching Jones sit in Triple A for two strai
What makes you think Balentien would even be in our OF next year should Jones go?

We'd have Balentien and Bedard together for one year (2009).

by Slica on Jan 17, 2008 10:46 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

DOV thinks he will.
Not Steve. It's one of their main arguments in saying trading Jones is okay.
Babies hate me.

by Librocrat on Jan 17, 2008 10:48 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

To make matters worse
In 2009 Ibanez will still be in the starting lineup at either LF or RF.

Odds? Gotta be 95%.

by Slica on Jan 17, 2008 10:53 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Yeah.
By then, he won't even be a spasm corpse. He'll be too old to spasm.
Babies hate me.

by Librocrat on Jan 17, 2008 11:00 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Also true
for 2008, I doubt the organization would begin the year with Wlad in right field. I think they're highly likely to go after a stopgap veteran.

However, if you're a big Balentien fan, then that would take a lot of the sting out of losing AJ long-term (although there's nothing wrong with having two cheap young outfielders instead of one).

by Jeff on Jan 17, 2008 10:57 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Well
If they fail to sign a stopgap, im sure they would use Bloomquist over Wlad. Not making a joke. Not rolling my eyes because its the Mariners. Just speaking the truth.

I really think Bloomquist has a better chance of being our starting 3rd OFer than Balentien does next year.

On a side note, id love to keep both Wlad and Adam. Sadly, Triunfel is my main concern. Ive been watching him since he debuted. Losing him would crush me and ruin the excitement I have watching him grow. Adam Jones would crush me because he would automatically be my favorite Mariner. They LOVE trading my favorite players.

Except Jose Lopez. Figures, they keep the disappointing one.

by Slica on Jan 17, 2008 11:34 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I can't see the M's starting Willie, ever.
This organization is in love with Bloomquist's versitility to play all positions and just can't bear the thought of him being stuck in one position.

I can see Wlad starting if the FO fails to find a replacement but if they find one during the season (depending on Wlad's performance) they will use him the first chance they get.

by ThundaPC on Jan 18, 2008 8:41 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Organizational love for Willie B
I believe that many fans overestimate the Mariners attraction to Bloomquist. I think it's clear the team sees him as a limited role utility player.  The team values that role - they're willing to pay quite generously for it.  But they don't see Willie as a starter anywhere on the field.

Last year, despite playing for managers who value grit, hustle, and veteran presence, Wille had the fewest number of plater appearances since he went on the 25-man roster full time. It's not as if there weren't opportunities to use him - but first Hargrove and then MacLaren decided not to give him starts to rest regulars.  His number of game appearances held up - so they were simply deploying him much more as an in game substitute.

I think it's also significant that in signing Miguel Cairo the Mariners said they were doing so to push Lopez.  Isn't second base Willie's "natural" position?  Isn't Willie more firmly entrenched and valued by the club?  Wouldn't it be scarier for Lopez if he were getting pushed by a guy who is as beloved and valued by the team as Bloomquist??

IMHO - the team has looked at Willie and concluded he's a gritty utility player who can cover every position on the field except pitcher.  (IIRC - Willie has been the emergency third catcher in recent seasons.) They think he's valuable in that role, but it looks to me that's the only role they see for him.

by Steve Nelson on Jan 18, 2008 12:36 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Good point
it's related to (A), but it's probably important enough to stand on its own.

by Jeff on Jan 17, 2008 10:53 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

It would be great if it was over.
Because, in some ways, either way is a entertaining, if nothing else. Watching Adam Jones would be great. Watching Bedard pitch would be great.

In this case, it is the cost that makes this a terrible deal, as well as the likelihood we reach the playoffs. But as far as entertainment value of those two players, 2008 will be entertaining, if nothing else.

Babies hate me.

by Librocrat on Jan 17, 2008 10:20 PM PST   0 recs

hypothetically speaking
of course, until someone sees this on reallylegitoriolestraderumorsandpossiblefacts.com, what would be willing to give up if the return was erik bedard and nick markakis?

by seattlebruin on Jan 17, 2008 10:33 PM PST   0 recs

Well
Adam Jones, for starters.

by Slica on Jan 17, 2008 10:45 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Don't torment yourself
with such fantasies. Markakis is their best player and he's only got two years of service time. We'd have to trade Felix to get him.
What do I look like, a guy who's not lazy?

by Rollo Tomasi on Jan 17, 2008 10:58 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

This has got to be the most analyised
non trade ever. If this actually goes down, there is going to be nothing left to say, because it's all been said already.
These pretzels....are making me thirsty!

by Goose on Jan 17, 2008 10:42 PM PST   0 recs

Yep
Last night I went over in my head what I'd say when we hear a final decision. Not much. That's what I'd say.

by Jeff on Jan 17, 2008 10:55 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Just you watch the trade turn out to be
some insane five-team trade with Seattle, the Mets, Baltimore, Minnesota and Arizona where Bedard, Santana, Nathan, 4 role playing veterans and a collective 13 team top-ten prospects get moved.

by Matthew on Jan 17, 2008 11:01 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I am sure
we would get the 4 role-playing veterans.

by KC on Jan 17, 2008 11:19 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I watched Balentien in LF
and Jones in RF last year when they were down playing the Portland Beavers.  (The Beavers had zero talent, by the way.)

Unfortunately, I also saw Horrible Ramirez on the mound.

Anyway, Jones had an aura about him.  Good vibes.  He was ready for The Show.  Like watching a cool combination of Clyde Drexler's body and all-star baseball skills.

Balentien looked okay in the field.  Not great, but okay.  He is a strong kid, a little like Jose Guillen in the field (I didn't see his arm strength, though).  He flailed at a few sliders, ala Hendu, but he did hit one rocket to the deepest part of CF.  That ball was crushed!

Not sure if this means anything to you guys but, for me, emotionally, Jones was mesmerizing.  Vlad was just another player.

I don't want to miss out on AT LEAST six years of Jones.

by KC on Jan 17, 2008 11:32 PM PST   0 recs

I think
that the Beavers actually had negative talent last year.  But I'm still renewing my ticket package, hopefully this year'll be a bit better.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Jan 18, 2008 9:36 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

The Mariner Factor
I've been thinking over the last couple weeks why I was "ok" with Jones possibly being dealt for Bedard.

I think in thinking things over the one thing that kept coming to mind wasn't the value of Jones or the value of Bedard and how it went along with improving the team, but rather that the Mariners seem to have a knack of not trusting their everyday rookies, and in doing so tinkering with either their approach to mold them into Major league hitters, or giving them a short leash to be productive.

I can easily see the Mariners giving Jones the Lopez treatment, trying to get him to focus on using all the field cutting down his strength of hitting homeruns, having him drop down bunts, concentrating on "putting the ball in play" instead of striking out.  I also see him being pinch hit for and getting one to two days off a week especially if he struggles early, as well as having a short leash.

I think those are the reasons why I'm ok with the trade if it happens, while Jones would have alot more value and bet better for the club in the long run, short term because of the Mariners handling of their prospects I can see Jones value for the first year or two being greatly diminished by his usage.

by MfaninAlaska on Jan 18, 2008 9:34 AM PST   0 recs

I know
its just that there is so little going on in the world of baseball right now that I post obvious things.

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 21, 2008 10:08 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

By reading a game thread of your own volition you agree to accept all liability for any and all damage done to your delicate sensibilities.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Theking_small
LL Football: Friday or Saturday?

Recent FanPosts

Hmssurprise_small
Deconstructing WHIP
Seangreenhead_small
Lillibridge flipped for left handed reliever (and some guy named Javy Vazquez too)
Purple_hippo_small
OTFP: The Rime of the Current Mariners
Small
Scott Thorman -----> Brewers
Leavemikealone_small
OTFPOTD - 12/2 LATE
Small
NOOOOOOOOOOO
Small
Angels Eyeing Draft Picks Galore
Seangreenhead_small
Astros to burn at least two million dollars in giant bonfire
Small
Raul Offered Arby, Two Coaches Named

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini


Sexy People

Hmssurprise_small Graham

Small Matthew

Small Jeff

ad

Site Meter