So, Okay
I'm basically at the point right now where I'm treating the Bedard trade as an inevitability. I'm convinced that, before long, Erik Bedard will be a Mariner, and Adam Jones, George Sherrill, and some other people will not. I don't have an inside source leading me in one direction or the other, but at least this way, if it happens, I'll be prepared, and if it doesn't, I'll be ecstatic. That's how the experienced loser deals with dejection.
Obviously, this trade is all the rage. Every Mariner fan with an Internet connection is talking about it, and it's been analyzed and evaluated from every angle imaginable. There is little to say about this deal that hasn't already been said, which is kind of remarkable considering it hasn't happened yet. The Mariner community is nothing if not thorough.
With that in mind, there's one thing that's bothering me in a lot of the current discussion. It's not that some people are underselling the impact of defense - that's pretty much always the case. It's not that some people are willing to sacrifice a chunk of the future to win now - that's understandable. And it's not that some people are ignoring the value of Jones' low salary - it's tough to make people care about money when all you see are the players on the field.
It's the fascination that some people have with labels. Bedard, the #1 ace pitcher. Jones, the average corner bat. Sherrill, the LOOGY. And so on and so forth. A typical argument will be that "Bedard is a #1 ace pitcher, and there aren't many of those around, so you have to seize the opportunity to get one while you can."
This point (or some variation thereof) is being repeated everywhere as justification for making the trade. And if you just give it a casual glance, it makes sense - #1 starters are rare, and therefore extraordinarily valuable, because whatever you trade to get one is more easy to replace than the pitcher himself, who has few peers. In a way, this is sort of the whole basis of the stars and scrubs approach to roster management.
Well, for one thing, while #1 pitchers are indeed incredibly rare, so are highly talented outfielders under cheap team control for the next six years. Right now, Adam Jones has fewer comparables than Erik Bedard.
But more importantly, let's drop the labels entirely. Yes, Erik Bedard is a #1 pitcher. That's great. Just don't let that fact cloud your judgment.
Every single player in baseball can be described by two values - the number of runs he contributes to his team, and how much he costs. Every single one. There's no need for labels when it comes to serious analysis. Instead of saying something like "Erik Bedard is valuable because he's an ace," it's better to say "Erik Bedard is valuable because he's x runs better than (other pitcher), and won't cost that much in terms of money." It paints a more accurate and specific picture that makes for easier evaluation than trying to navigate between a bunch of flattering, imprecise adjectives.
In the case of the current Mariners, you can't just rationalize a trade for Bedard by saying that he's an ace, and that we need an ace something terrible. You need to work with the numbers. Let's forget about salary for a moment. Bedard is likely to be, I dunno, anywhere between 30-40 (edit: 40-50) runs better than whoever else we'd end up plugging into that final rotation spot. That's a huge improvement in the team's overall run differential, one that would make us a handful of wins better as a team.
Now subtract from that total of 40-50 however many runs you think we lose going from Sherrill to somebody else. Then subtract however many runs you think we lose going from Jones to another RF at the plate (if any). Finally, subtract however many runs you think we lose going from Jones to another RF in the field. What number are you left with?
In order to properly evaluate this trade, you need to look at three things:
(1) the size of that number in 2008 and, if you're feeling adventurous, 2009 (the improvement in run differential)
(2) how much closer that brings us to the upper tier of the AL
(3) whether an improvement of that magnitude is worth giving up six years of Jones, four years of Sherrill, and six years of whoever else you give up
I'll let you make up your own mind about what you'd prefer to have happen, but if you want to analyze this trade, that's how you have to look at it. Any other approach, particularly one that draws heavily upon the appeal of having Bedard/Felix at the front, is incomplete. Yes, that would be an awesome pair to have. But would it be awesome enough to justify the expense?
My personal belief is that, no, it wouldn't. If we were about five wins better or so, in a position where adding Bedard could put us over the top, then yeah, it'd make sense to overpay. But I don't think we're there, not yet, not without an inordinate number of good bounces going in our favor. And I think we're unlikely to get there in the next few years unless we hang on to the very talent that we're on the verge of trading away.
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Comments
Can we just call that a "win"
by Thingray on
Jan 14, 2008 5:10 PM PST
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I wonder what that number looks like in
by kentroyals5 on
Jan 14, 2008 5:10 PM PST
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Aces
by pdb on Jan 14, 2008 5:15 PM PST 0 recs
That reminds me
by MfaninAlaska on
Jan 14, 2008 5:17 PM PST
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Having a legit #1 is necessary
by Katal LM on
Jan 14, 2008 5:20 PM PST
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Yeah
by Jeff on
Jan 14, 2008 5:23 PM PST
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Slightly disagree
by pdb on
Jan 14, 2008 5:23 PM PST
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true dat
by Katal LM on
Jan 14, 2008 5:25 PM PST
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CC Sabathia
by Librocrat on
Jan 14, 2008 5:26 PM PST
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why do the o's demanding sherrill
by rturk89 on
Jan 14, 2008 5:46 PM PST
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Just because they are rebuilding, doesn't
And yeah, he wasn't as good in the 2nd half as he was the first half, but he was still pretty good overall, not to mention we're talking about 17 innings here.
by Goose on
Jan 14, 2008 5:51 PM PST
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the fact
by rturk89 on
Jan 14, 2008 5:56 PM PST
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Manager usage isn't a good excuse
But regardless, he is the most expandable part of the package, I will agree.
by Goose on
Jan 14, 2008 5:58 PM PST
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Just found out why the o's want sherrill
by Graham on
Jan 15, 2008 1:19 AM PST
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Good lefty relievers
by PetRock on
Jan 14, 2008 9:32 PM PST
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just found out why o's want sherrill
by rturk89 on
Jan 14, 2008 11:56 PM PST
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you can stick to posting the same info
by Matthew on
Jan 15, 2008 12:04 AM PST
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I read this.
Oh my god... I'm an insider. The insiders are saying Mike Morse + Vidro for Bedard!
by Librocrat on
Jan 15, 2008 12:25 AM PST
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it makes sense though
by rturk89 on
Jan 15, 2008 12:35 AM PST
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just found out why o's want sherrill
by Graham on
Jan 15, 2008 1:20 AM PST
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A lot of things make sense.
by Librocrat on
Jan 15, 2008 8:45 PM PST
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just found out why o's want sherrill
by Graham on
Jan 15, 2008 1:20 AM PST
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An ace
Imagine where he was last year when Ho and Reefer Jaw would come off of two TERRIBLE outings where we overused our bullpen to attempt to save the day. Felix gets to his start and suddenly,he has a ton of pressure to win because no one else has and if he doesn't, who will. Then, he HAS to go at least 7 or 8 innings (or maybe until his arm falls off) because there is no bullpen behind him.
Imagine 2008, a guy like Bedard comes in and suddenly becomes the ace. He gets the matchup with the other team's unstoppable force. Felix slides into the #2 spot and gets matched up with another team's #2. Granted nowadays, most teams have a spectacular 1-2 punch, and we would now be on an even playing field with them. We play Boston in a 3 game series and now instead of it being Felix-Silva-Batista vs. Beckett-Schilling-Matsuzaka its now Bedard-Felix-Silva vs. Beckett, Schiling and Dice-K. I like those odds MUCH better.
To me adding a pitcher like Bedard would make Felix become that much better. I just wish we wouldn't have to mortgage the farm for him.
by tkballer22 on
Jan 14, 2008 6:26 PM PST
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i cant imagine
by rturk89 on
Jan 14, 2008 6:31 PM PST
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just found out why o's want sherrill
by Graham on
Jan 15, 2008 1:21 AM PST
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I hate intangibles.
That being said, the only thing I feel good about for this trade is the fact that Bedard might be so good, that he might be able to pull the Mariners out of their typical 2-3 times a season tailspins where they can't win despite themselves.
I am fully aware of how useless it is to think of Winning and particular Pitchers, that good pitching is basically worthless without good defense and hitting and everything else we read every day on USSM and LL. Oh yeah, and how stupid the FO is by thinking slumps are prevented by a Veteran Mentality and Chemistry.
I do believe there is a human factor to the game that is impossible to ignore, and I think it's a benefit to the other sides of the equation (defense, and especially offense) to have someone that can just go out and pitch better than almost anyone else.
Now, do I believe that Jones is worth it? No, I'd rather have 6 years of a good, young, athletic corner OF that might develop into a good OPS guy. But if it does happen, I am looking forward to watching a guy that can just pitch-- better than anyone else in a Mariners' uniform since Randy Johnson (I might be wrong on that one, but I am too tired to jog my memory).
by batura on
Jan 14, 2008 5:47 PM PST
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Your last paragraph sums it up for me
by Jeff on
Jan 14, 2008 9:00 PM PST
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You forgot about
by I'm NOT Corco on
Jan 14, 2008 11:47 PM PST
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Mariners
by batura on
Jan 15, 2008 12:08 AM PST
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/DOV
/end_Dov
by Katal LM on Jan 14, 2008 5:19 PM PST 0 recs
You are forgetting:
/end_Dov
by Goose on
Jan 14, 2008 5:35 PM PST
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I... I'm torn
The loss of Sherrill I think is negligible, as EOF and RRS can pick up the slack pretty well. Also, that rotation should considerably lighten the load on the bullpen, so it may actually become better than last year's, especially come August.
Thinking about it more, I realize I can convince myself that both are pretty attractive options. Its like this. You throw a party, and you get wasted very early (this always happens to me when I host). You know that later that night your smoking hot coworker you've been flirting with is gonna show. But that's later and this is now. And now your roommates older sister (who is meh) is all over your jock and talking dirty. Of course, it is preferable to keep your eyes on the prize and wait. However, if the choice were taken our of your hands and given to a nice but misguided bald man with an elongated cranium, and you suddenly find that you're already in bed with the sister, you're not giong to be pretty happy just the same. there's a georgian saying - you can't argue with a naked woman.
by Mere Tantalisers on Jan 14, 2008 6:08 PM PST 0 recs
Oh my...
If there is, you just won it.
by Wilder83 on
Jan 14, 2008 6:15 PM PST
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Couldnt said it better myself
Well done, sir. Have yourself a beer.
by Slica on Jan 14, 2008 6:19 PM PST 0 recs
FWIW, I went through the steps
40 - 20 (weighted runs compared to J. Affeldt) - 10 (BAT: Jones to Wlad) - 12.5 (GLOVE: Jones to Wlad)
=
-2.5 runs
by Matthew on Jan 14, 2008 6:43 PM PST 0 recs
BTW, this surprised me
by Matthew on
Jan 14, 2008 6:50 PM PST
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And naturally, I screwed it up trying to do
So +5.5 runs total
by Matthew on
Jan 14, 2008 6:55 PM PST
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Is that using 2007 leverage
by Jeff on
Jan 14, 2008 8:59 PM PST
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I used Sherrill's career LI
by Matthew on
Jan 14, 2008 11:38 PM PST
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I think you're overvaluing Sherrill
by Graham on
Jan 15, 2008 12:47 AM PST
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Or undervaluing guys like O'Flaherty
by marc w on
Jan 15, 2008 9:21 AM PST
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I randomly decided the other night
by Robert on
Jan 16, 2008 2:52 AM PST
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Heh. Suck.
by Librocrat on
Jan 14, 2008 6:52 PM PST
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does this take into account innings pitched?
I'm thinking this is probably factored into your calculations, but I wasn't sure.
by Zack on
Jan 14, 2008 10:18 PM PST
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Thank you John Hickey.
by TIF on Jan 14, 2008 8:35 PM PST 0 recs
Erik Bedard
I'm leaning towards "Go get Bedard" but not for reasons most people suggest.
In fact, my reason for getting him is kinda stupid. Some people want him to provide that "1,2 punch" with him and Felix. Some people want him because the guys that are being traded "are just prospects".
Why do I want him? Because it would be considered a success for this low-grade front office. Let's face it, as long as we have the front office that we have, we're not going to see the Mariners become an Indians, Athletics, Tigers, Red Sox, or even Yankees type team anytime soon. These folks have a love for veterans and track-records even if said veterans may not be very good.
I stared off the offseason not wanting to get Bedard/Santana. What changed my mind? The direction this team was obviously heading in. They think they can win. Despite the availability of stopgap options on the market we decided to blow $48 million on Carlos Silva for four years. We can be happen to retain Adam Jones but then we're also stuck with Carlos Silva and our backend being HoRam or Brandon Morrow. NOT that putting up with that nonsense while keeping Adam Jones is a bad thing mind you.
I would be lying if I said I wouldn't be excited if we landed Bedard. We're going to give up a lot and it's going to hurt. People who don't think this are kidding themselves. Also, by accepting this route, I believe we have two chances to win big...2008 and 2009. After that, though, comes the consequence. Oakland gets better, Texas gets stronger, and we start collapsing under the weight of the deals we'll have in place at the time. Next thing we know, we're back in last place again with no Adam Jones and whomever else we give up.
Is that going to be worth the risk? Depends. Right now, I'm under the impression that based on the FO's line of thinking we're going to be heading back down the crapper eventually anyhow. That makes it kind of easier to deal with. Then again, watching Astrubal Cabrera contribute to the post season while Eduardo Perez does commentary on Baseball Tonight kinda stung. Can I really stomach seeing Adam Jones tear it up in another uniform? Or worse, watch him take Mariner pitching to the cleaners like Vlad does?
Basically, I want to get Erik Bedard because our FO is stupid. They're at least going after something valuable this time. Honestly, I'd pick a well-built team over this any day of the week. Man, I wish we had a smart FO. :|
by ThundaPC on Jan 14, 2008 9:13 PM PST 0 recs
Hey, I'm all for Bedard
Buy yeah, at least they aren't targeting a guy like Pavano '04.
by JI on
Jan 14, 2008 9:26 PM PST
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Jones - Bedard
Jones will probably be a great player, but Bedard will help the Mariners more right now AND in the next couple of years, I think.
If there's a trigger, the front office should pull it now.
by scoutingbook on Jan 14, 2008 9:26 PM PST 0 recs
The front office has pulled enough triggers
by Jeff on
Jan 14, 2008 9:26 PM PST
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Is this another sock puppet?
Seriously, have you read any of the diaries?
by pdb on
Jan 14, 2008 9:27 PM PST
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Geez
Im baffled at how clueless people are.
I could be ok letting Jones go for Bedard if he were guaranteed to stay. I see the argument 'how often do the Ms get a frontline pitcher like this'?. They conveniently forget Bedard is virtually a lock to leave in two years...how often do we retain frontline pitchers?.
Bedard is an awesome pitcher. Im still not putting him as high (Santana/Peavy high) as everyone else until he has another awesome year. Just me being stingy.
But even the great Bedard will see double after double next year wiith our outfield defense. It felt like we gave up 3-5 doubles a game.
by Slica on Jan 14, 2008 9:26 PM PST 0 recs
you know, im actually excited about this trade
of course i think the rumored packages are terrible. obviously, you cant know for sure what youve got with prospects, especially one as young as triunfel, but as we've said so many times on this board, you have at least have a decent educated guess always.
back to the subject of my comment, if erik bedard ends up in a mariner uniform, regardless of the cost, i will be damn excited to watch him on the hill for us. it goes against all rhyme or reason, but damn do i want to watch a guy like erik bedard pitch for the Ms
by seattlebruin on Jan 14, 2008 9:35 PM PST 0 recs
also,
by seattlebruin on Jan 14, 2008 9:54 PM PST 0 recs
nobody wants to hear this arguement
In reality, Bedard in the starting rotation will bump this team upto major contender status, and the Angels will have something real to deal with.
If/when the M's get into the playoffs, they will be a tough team to beat with Bedard/Felix 1-2 punch.
The trade now sounds like Morrow or Tillman, Jones, and GS52.
I would absolutely pull the trigger on this, especially if we can sign Bedard to more years.
This board (yes I'm calling it a board, so eat me) will just have to deal with the poor prospects of watching Bedard and Felix pitch back to back ohhh the horror! MORONS
by I Heart Silva on
Jan 15, 2008 7:39 AM PST
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I too would enjoy such a scenario
by Scrappy the Scapegoat on
Jan 15, 2008 7:46 AM PST
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I'm immensely curious...
by Graham on
Jan 15, 2008 7:50 AM PST
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Just found out why o's want sherrill
by I Heart Silva on
Jan 15, 2008 7:53 AM PST
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Oh Graham
by johnbai on
Jan 15, 2008 10:13 AM PST
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Fine, fine
by Graham on
Jan 15, 2008 10:13 AM PST
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I think you mean
by PositivePaul on
Jan 15, 2008 10:23 AM PST
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Do you honestly think
by pdb on
Jan 15, 2008 7:59 AM PST
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Don't bother, pdb
by Graham on
Jan 15, 2008 8:01 AM PST
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Your arguement lack merit
by I Heart Silva on
Jan 15, 2008 8:03 AM PST
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I'm glad that
I'll still take any of my arguments[sic] over your (however amusing) spasms of retardity.
by Graham on
Jan 15, 2008 8:08 AM PST
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I'm going to start a punk band
by pdb on
Jan 15, 2008 8:10 AM PST
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I prefer honey to vinegar
I can't remember - why does it make sense for the O's to ask for Sherrill again?
by pdb on
Jan 15, 2008 8:06 AM PST
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