9/28: Open Game Thread

Catalanotto 1B Ichiro CF Kinsler 2B Beltre 3B Young "SS" Ibanez "LF" Byrd CF Guillen RF Blalock DH Clement DH Botts LF Johjima C Murphy RF Morse 1B Saltalamacchia C Lopez 2B Metcalf 3B Ballgame SS ---------- ----------
Volquez (2-1, 4.40) Weaver (7-13, 6.30)
A lot of Mariner fans have had a problem with Chuck Armstrong for a few years now, but given his fairly limited role in roster management, I never had a reason to dislike him that much, nor had he ever said or done anything that rubbed me the wrong way. That is, until yesterday. Via Geoff Baker:
Armstrong said the disastrous trade that brought Horacio Ramirez from Atlanta for proven veteran setup reliever Rafael Soriano wasn't all Bavasi's fault. Armstrong said, without naming specific off-field incidents, that "a lot of things went on that compelled us to make that move" of Soriano for whatever the Mariners could get.
The implication is pretty clear - that the organization had non-baseball reasons for wanting to dump Raffy somewhere else, to go along with their performance and health concerns (both of which they misevaluated in spectacular fashion). That off-the-field issues kind of forced their hand into making a trade that, on paper, didn't make a lick of sense. This is how Armstrong has decided to explain to fans the rationale behind one of the worst transactions in franchise history.
Here's the problem: Raffy was never involved in any "off-the-field incidents". Not once. I know this to be true beyond a reasonable doubt. If Raffy was guilty, it was of two things - being quiet and shy instead of outwardly social, and having a group of predominantly Latin friends and supporters that made certain people in the organization uncomfortable. You know, the same kinds of friends and supporters that get mentioned on the scoreboard when they're there for Willie, or who're talked about in glowing terms on the broadcast when they're in Anaheim for Jeremy Reed. Somehow Willie's posse is just a bunch of good guys who don't pose any threat, while Raffy's gets stuck with the label of being an intimidating entourage.
I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that I know you're all thinking, but this isn't the first time this has happened to a Latin player on the team, and to use it as a justification for shipping one out of town in exchange for pennies on the dollar - especially so long after the fact - is unnecessary and offensive. Why say this now? Even if you're trying to cover Bavasi's ass at a time when you know a lot of people are upset, it's a total cheap shot taken at one of the last players in baseball who deserves such disrespect.
Yeah, he tended to keep to himself and roll with a group of friends that didn't get the Mariner stamp of approval, but all Raffy ever did in Seattle was go about his job with determination, success, and the utmost professionalism. The same cannot be said of our team president.
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Isn't it funny...
My feeling? This organization likes to slag players who don't drink milk and get into bed at 11 pm, and aren't white guys from Washington state. It's easy to sort of hang this label out on some people, because it lets the front office obscure their incompetence.
I'm not saying they do this with ALL the Latin players, obviously- Raul, Vidro and King Awesome are good examples where they don't. But just wait, Jose Lopez is going to be the NEXT guy to get slagged. You just watch.
by eponymous coward on Sep 28, 2007 5:58 PM PDT reply actions
Lopez will get slagged for being lazy
It's not that the organization wants its players to behave like priests - Felix and Yuni like to go out all the time, for example, and the Mariners still love them. But that's because they're outgoing. They smile a lot, they're always joking around with each other in the dugout, and they don't mind talking with the media or executives when they're not on the field.
Raffy wasn't like that. Raffy didn't stick gum on anyone's hat or light a match on anyone's cleats, nor was he real comfortable talking to the press. He just liked to get people out and hang with his friends. Raffy was also one of the best relief pitchers we've ever had. And now he's gone.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions
So I guess we can
Ho Ramirez is Latin too, I think.
Jeff
by mobvok on Sep 28, 2007 6:06 PM PDT reply actions
I should explain a little more
As far as I can tell, the Mariners went into the last offseason pretty much determined to send Soriano somewhere else, and then when his velocity went down in winterball, that's when they panicked and jumped at the first offer they got.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions
He caused many uproars...
Here's what I don't get.
Maybe it's an age/"experience" thing. Whatever the case, stuff like this just ends up hurting the team in the long run.
This doesn't surprise me.
I don't consider that very professional behavior.
to be fair
To be fair...
What a surprise,
Almost all vets for us...
by Bodhizefa on Sep 28, 2007 6:27 PM PDT reply actions
Um, Felix? Yuni?
What?
I heard
That's flat out wrong.
by cookiemonster on Sep 28, 2007 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions
In Other News,
FUCK YOU JOHN MCLAREN.
Phillies winning, Mets losing.
Sucks for David Wright
by JI on Sep 28, 2007 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions
JI JIM THOME!
brewers about an hour from being eliminated
WEVE IMPROVED YES
I love how Raul slides to cut that off
Manny Acta = manager of the year
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 7:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Kinsler
by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Well...
Kinsler's home OPS is 921, and his road OPS is 690.
+129 at home vs. -36 on the road is a tradeoff worth taking, I think.
Most of the difference is in batting average. I don't think the park itself creates a 91 point swing in average, particularly given that he's not the type of hitter whose strengths fit with TBIA's.
by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 7:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm just giving you a hard time.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah
I don't know how to explain it.
by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Ladies and gentlemen,
Did you see the hit?
Season opener tomorrow morning at 9am. You setting your alarm? You know I am.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Related question
No, never really got it to work.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Can you even make out the game
by JI on Sep 28, 2007 7:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Haven't tried it yet.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Okay, I just tried it out
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions
That was the worst Stanley Cup ever.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions
It;s amazing
that is a pretty awesome video
agreed
The M's hate everything about Oakland
I don't get it.
by JI on Sep 28, 2007 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions
I dunno...
//no, Broussard's middle name isn't Dover...
by PositivePaul on Sep 28, 2007 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions
The Yanks lost on a bases loaded squeeze.
by JI on Sep 28, 2007 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Please do not root for the Cubs
by MrIncognito @ Lookout Landing on Sep 28, 2007 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Brandon Fahey: .582 OPS
I wonder if an organization has ever demanded that one of its players take steroids before.
watching this game
This, and meeting the Budweiser guys who dressed up like girls to get cheap beer on ladies night, appearing at Jillian's.
Piniella, Melvin to the playoffs.
Ramon Vazquez is ours...
by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 8:09 PM PDT reply actions
Who would you pick in the NL?
I'm sending you...
by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Ian Kinsler = flaming queen.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Kam Loe
Kam Loe with a python around his neck is a pretty weird sight.
by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions
You're forgetting Adrian Gonzalez.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions
They had nowhere to play him.
Otsuka could relieve us to death if he weren't on the DL.
by JI on Sep 28, 2007 8:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey
And he'd have brought a great return at the trade deadline this year, if he hadn't been hurt.
by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions
"Great"?
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Gagne
Otsuka isn't a f.a. until after 2009.
If he'd been healthy, he would have brought a better return than Gagne did.
Although Engel Beltre is a beast.
by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions
You who's more valuable than Alex Rodriguez?
by JI on Sep 28, 2007 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm still confused...
by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Al we have left of Mark Langston
In other words, the Rangers had a fantastic player who they dealt in a horrible horrible trade, and then they compounded the matter by trading Soriano for Wilkerson.
by JI on Sep 28, 2007 8:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Well...
I liked the Soriano trade at the time, but Wilkerson hasn't been healthy.
Still, Soriano wasn't generating much trade interest, because he was a lousy second baseman who was a year away from free agency, would make over $10 million in 2006, and who was going to pout if moved to the outfield. And the Rangers felt Kinsler was ready to take over at 2B.
If the Rangers had hung onto Soriano, they still wouldn't have made the playoffs last year, and they'd still have seen him leave after the season as a f.a.
by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Even if Otsuka brings back a B+ prospect
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions
My take on the Eaton deal...
http://www.lonestarball.com/story/2005/12/20/14373/361
http://www.lonestarball.com/story/2005/12/20/153344/01
And looking back, I think I wasn't critical enough.
Young is helped by Petco and a great OF defense, but he'd still be pretty good at TBIA. But Buck thought he couldn't hold up.
by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions
It's easy to understand the skepticism
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions
What I wouldnt pay to hear
by JI on Sep 28, 2007 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions
The Final Season isn't even a good story.
The trailer is too long for the commercial break
FAIL
by JI on Sep 28, 2007 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah, fuck norwegians
The best part
Fuck you, Norway High.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions
The Final Season almost had redeeming value
veteran grit
teaching our young, nubile rookies proper mariners values!
Actually, it's a pretty amazing story.
Okay, I would.
It was a fine story without the movie.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions
On Baseball-Reference
I will make it my mission in life to change that.
"Guillen on his horse."
Holy crap
Somebody shoot Guillen's "horse".
one final "fuck you" from jeff weaver
that movie's stupid preview-guy voice
I cant see a movie preview anymore without thinking of this, or the stanley's cup episode where stan coaches the hockey team, and the preview-guy voice follows him around with the record player
why the hell hasn't ichiro stolen 2nd?
helllo?
It's the perfect storm!
Get that lardo some rally fries!!!
I can't believe
Damn you, Mariners. Damn you all...
Jesus Christ that was close.
by bpdawg24 on Sep 28, 2007 10:04 PM PDT reply actions
Salty Mocha???
Better than A.J. Pierzdsjrpoinsdl;fkn rsdasjda;flski
and Doug Monkeywitch/Mientkiewicz
by PositivePaul on Sep 28, 2007 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Balls can sink, Adrian.
He's going to get a shaving cream pie in the face.
I suggest mass suicide
OMFG.
Wow.
Just.
Wow.
Oddly enough, Greg Dobbs is receiving
by bpdawg24 on Sep 28, 2007 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Hmmm. Doubt it...
by PositivePaul on Sep 28, 2007 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Gosh if we didn't have Vidro under contract...
It's been amazing
We are stuck with Vidro, who could possibly block Clement and already blocked Jones.
We got rid of Soriano, which took a great veteran reliever out of the pen AND set back Morrow's development.
Sure glad Bavasi is back next year!!
Vidro really isn't the problem
Wrong
He's had a decent year, but he's not good enough to put the playing time of Jones and Clement up in the air.
Not by a long shot.
that's not Vidro's fault though
So What
I'm not blaming Vidro for being what he is (an aging, slow, no-power bat with another two years on his contract), I'm blaming Bavasi for making the deal. And I also note the fact that, while the deal was almost universally panned when it happened, it is now creating a problem for 2008.
Jones has to go to Venezuela to get ABs. Who knows where he could be developmentally if he'd gotten 200 ABs in Seattle, rather than 62?
Also, the M's have to account for Vidro when making up the 2008 roster. Will they have to consider making Raul a 1B, or might they be tempted to refrain from making Jones an everyday player?
And even if Clement builds on his 2007, and tears the cover off the ball in Tacoma next year, will the M's make room for him?
These are questions that have to be asked because Vidro is on the roster. And he's just not good enough to justify having those questions hanging over the team...
The more I think about this
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions
With few exceptions (i.e. Edgar), I agree
by PositivePaul on Sep 28, 2007 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, Edgar changes everything.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I mostly agree with you
The trade was stupid. Really really stupid. But that's the FO's fault, not Vidro's.
Hey -
But this is Bavasi's fault, not Vidro's.
It's not Vidro's fault
by Coach Owens on Sep 28, 2007 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions
I think we're all mad,
- Everyone loves Doyle, despite his injury proneness.
- Fruto at 22, could still become a very dependable middle relief or setup guy.
- Vidro is a big liability, as he can't run or field, which severely hampers his value, also he has absolutely no power. Despite most likely knowing this, Bavasi still traded for him because of a track record, which we all knew was just going to get worse as he's going into the age were most players decline.
by Coach Owens on Sep 28, 2007 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions
If we'd gotten Vidro for free...
It's the whole philosophy behind Vidro in the first place -- moreso then what you're trying to explain in #3. The $$$, the unnecessary roster spot clogging (adding a fourth guy to the mix for the DH spot).
If he squeezed anyone out, it was Broussard. Having Broussard on the club made the acquisition of Vidro completely unnecessary.
by PositivePaul on Sep 28, 2007 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Meh, if we could have
by Coach Owens on Sep 28, 2007 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I would've liked him more a year ago
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions
oh absolutely
I'm just saying he's done about as well as any sane person could have hoped for and he's been useful. Blame Bavasi for blocking the DH spot and forcing Ibanez and Sexson into the field all year. Don't blame Vidro for Bavasi's idiocy.
Wow
So I'm predicting,
His bat may be slow.
Won't help.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions
If i woke up at 3am and JJ was towering over me
How would your tune change
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Bavasi won't trade him
Gosh I hate the post game...
I came home
That's some awesome timing.
It was all you.
-Michel Scott
by SethGrandpa on Sep 28, 2007 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Co-cather/co-DH with Kenji would make sense.
by SethGrandpa on Sep 28, 2007 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions
The former seems like the useful approach
Wait my idea makes sense.
by SethGrandpa on Sep 28, 2007 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions
You'd need to have a third catcher though
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Whither Jamie Burke?
If Clement does well through April/May next year, this is something that should be discussed. It never will be, but at least we'll have a shiny new example of organizational inefficiency to bitch about.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Clement would take Broussard's spot
But, yeah, it won't happen, and as long as Clement still has a chance to stay behind the plate, he could use the time behind the plate in Tacoma.
On the bench.
Not immediately.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions
at this point, I'm not sure how I feel about him
If only he could take a freakin' walk once in awhile.
I like Kenji fine
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions
probably
If we had smart people running the team, this would be one of those "good problems to have". Since we have what we have, this is a potential catastrophe.
depends on your attitude going in I guess
Me 12 months ago? Yeah, that wasn't laughter.
Agreed.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions
He's as good as gone.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Snelling yeah, Raffy didn't
suffice to say I know how Gene here feels
Those commercials will be funny forever.
That ~week was miserable.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions
1B?
That makes way too much sense and thus
But it's funny how McLaren raves about "players who have been through the wars" and yet doesn't approve of "platoons".
When I write my posts this winter
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions
outcomes:
plan B) Bill Bavasi makes trades at winter meetings, thousands die.
What Bavasi's gonna do to our rotation
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Should I start organizing the Welcome to Seattle
I don't know which veteran we'll get
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 28, 2007 11:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Just have to bring this up again...
LOMFL
by PositivePaul on Sep 28, 2007 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions
WHAT'S UP GUYS THIS IS JI
by Coach Owens on Sep 28, 2007 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions
You lucky son of a gun!
by Coach Owens on Sep 28, 2007 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions
To think, if it weren't for luck,
Scary huh?
Also, you guys on TV missed an awesome situation
In about the 3rd inning, Willie wrote "Miller" in the light sand, and it took Miller about 4 innings to notice it and he wiped it off.
Chuck Armstrong
by munsrat on Sep 28, 2007 11:56 PM PDT reply actions
I do not believe Chuck Armstrong is a racist.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 29, 2007 12:04 AM PDT up reply actions
More Chuck Armstrong
by munsrat on Sep 29, 2007 12:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, while I agree with you
I think I'll just leave it like this - sometimes Chuck Armstrong lets inaccurate character judgments shape his opinions of certain players, and that doesn't sit well with me.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 29, 2007 12:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Also
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 29, 2007 12:17 AM PDT up reply actions
So?
Just because some folks want their employees to act like adults doesn't mean any of us have the right to suggest racism, should the employees be colored. That immediately blankets the topic in emotion and reactionism, and eliminates any chance of meaningful dialogue.
If Chuck Armstrong doesn't want his employees to act like fools, that's his choice. He's the boss. If we don't like it, we don't have to buy tickets. I'm really disappointed that an intelligent individual such as yourself immediately plays the race card. You know this isn't about race, so why suggest it?
Uh
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 29, 2007 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
As I read it
"I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that I know you're all thinking, but this isn't the first time this has happened to a Latin player on the team, and to use it as a justification for shipping one out of town in exchange for pennies on the dollar - especially so long after the fact - is unnecessary and offensive."
"and having a group of predominantly Latin friends and supporters that made certain people in the organization uncomfortable. You know, the same kinds of friends and supporters that get mentioned on the scoreboard when they're there for Willie, or who're talked about in glowing terms on the broadcast when they're in Anaheim for Jeremy Reed. Somehow Willie's posse is just a bunch of good guys who don't pose any threat, while Raffy's gets stuck with the label of being an intimidating entourage."
How else should I interpret that? Not that I know anything about it, but are Willie's friends like Raffy's in regards to behavior? If not, then why mention it? Why bring up race if it's not a factor?
I believe race was a factor
It is my belief that Armstrong didn't like the way Soriano, Guillen, and Garcia went about their business, and at the same time was uncomfortable with and intimidated by the kinds of people they chose to hang out with. Those people have been predominantly Latin (and, to the best of my knowledge, have never caused any significant trouble) (unless you think going out on the town is problematic). I think this speaks to an unfortunate and most probably subconscious prejudice on Armstrong's part, but I do not think it makes him a racist. In fact, I don't think it makes him any different than the overwhelming majority of the population. It's just a bad quality for a man with that much power to have.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 29, 2007 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions
It was me that suggested race
by munsrat on Sep 29, 2007 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions

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