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9/28: Open Game Thread

Tiny by Jeff on in Regular News Comment 339 comments

First Pitch: 7:05pm PDT

                   

Catalanotto 1B Ichiro CF Kinsler 2B Beltre 3B Young "SS" Ibanez "LF" Byrd CF Guillen RF Blalock DH Clement DH Botts LF Johjima C Murphy RF Morse 1B Saltalamacchia C Lopez 2B Metcalf 3B Ballgame SS ---------- ----------

Volquez (2-1, 4.40)         Weaver (7-13, 6.30)

A lot of Mariner fans have had a problem with Chuck Armstrong for a few years now, but given his fairly limited role in roster management, I never had a reason to dislike him that much, nor had he ever said or done anything that rubbed me the wrong way. That is, until yesterday. Via Geoff Baker:

Armstrong said the disastrous trade that brought Horacio Ramirez from Atlanta for proven veteran setup reliever Rafael Soriano wasn't all Bavasi's fault. Armstrong said, without naming specific off-field incidents, that "a lot of things went on that compelled us to make that move" of Soriano for whatever the Mariners could get.

The implication is pretty clear - that the organization had non-baseball reasons for wanting to dump Raffy somewhere else, to go along with their performance and health concerns (both of which they misevaluated in spectacular fashion). That off-the-field issues kind of forced their hand into making a trade that, on paper, didn't make a lick of sense. This is how Armstrong has decided to explain to fans the rationale behind one of the worst transactions in franchise history.

Here's the problem: Raffy was never involved in any "off-the-field incidents". Not once. I know this to be true beyond a reasonable doubt. If Raffy was guilty, it was of two things - being quiet and shy instead of outwardly social, and having a group of predominantly Latin friends and supporters that made certain people in the organization uncomfortable. You know, the same kinds of friends and supporters that get mentioned on the scoreboard when they're there for Willie, or who're talked about in glowing terms on the broadcast when they're in Anaheim for Jeremy Reed. Somehow Willie's posse is just a bunch of good guys who don't pose any threat, while Raffy's gets stuck with the label of being an intimidating entourage.

I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that I know you're all thinking, but this isn't the first time this has happened to a Latin player on the team, and to use it as a justification for shipping one out of town in exchange for pennies on the dollar - especially so long after the fact - is unnecessary and offensive. Why say this now? Even if you're trying to cover Bavasi's ass at a time when you know a lot of people are upset, it's a total cheap shot taken at one of the last players in baseball who deserves such disrespect.

Yeah, he tended to keep to himself and roll with a group of friends that didn't get the Mariner stamp of approval, but all Raffy ever did in Seattle was go about his job with determination, success, and the utmost professionalism. The same cannot be said of our team president.

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Isn't it funny...
how Freddy, Carlos and now Raffy get shipped off to other places, and the teams don't seem to have problems with them, but somehow there are whispers about them being awful people around here?

My feeling? This organization likes to slag players who don't drink milk and get into bed at 11 pm, and aren't white guys from Washington state. It's easy to sort of hang this label out on some people, because it lets the front office obscure their incompetence.

I'm not saying they do this with ALL the Latin players, obviously- Raul, Vidro and King Awesome are good examples where they don't. But just wait, Jose Lopez is going to be the NEXT guy to get slagged. You just watch.

by eponymous coward on Sep 28, 2007 5:58 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Lopez will get slagged for being lazy
not for something else.

It's not that the organization wants its players to behave like priests - Felix and Yuni like to go out all the time, for example, and the Mariners still love them. But that's because they're outgoing. They smile a lot, they're always joking around with each other in the dugout, and they don't mind talking with the media or executives when they're not on the field.

Raffy wasn't like that. Raffy didn't stick gum on anyone's hat or light a match on anyone's cleats, nor was he real comfortable talking to the press. He just liked to get people out and hang with his friends. Raffy was also one of the best relief pitchers we've ever had. And now he's gone.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So I guess we can
look forward to another year of Mario Mendo... I mean Richie Sexson at first base. (He's a white guy from Washington State)
My name is Matt Foley. I am 35 years old, I am divorced and I live in A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!

by Coach Owens on Sep 28, 2007 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ho Ramirez is Latin too, I think.
But, yeah, it seems the players the Mariners accuse of being lazy are always not white boys from Washington State. But, hey, the Danny Tartabull trade worked out real well.

by JI on Sep 28, 2007 6:03 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Jeff
do you know the truth about Soriano's situation from the same general sources that told you about his winter ball rehab outing w/ the flu that caused the FO to panic?

by mobvok on Sep 28, 2007 6:06 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I should explain a little more
there were both on-the-field and off-the-field reasons behind this trade. It was suggested to me at the time of the deal that the Mariners didn't like Raffy's introversion or group of friends, but I wrote this off as speculation and focused instead on the more baseball-relevant points of argument.

As far as I can tell, the Mariners went into the last offseason pretty much determined to send Soriano somewhere else, and then when his velocity went down in winterball, that's when they panicked and jumped at the first offer they got.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He caused many uproars...
not all that was said was false in Baker's story.

by ppl4life on Sep 28, 2007 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's what I don't get.
We toss away Freddy, Carlos, and Soriano for non-baseball reason but have no problem bringing in guys like Carl Everett, Jose Guillen, and Jeff Weaver?

Maybe it's an age/"experience" thing.  Whatever the case, stuff like this just ends up hurting the team in the long run.

by ThundaPC on Sep 28, 2007 6:07 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

This doesn't surprise me.
I believe Armstrong let non-baseball considerations cloud his view of Randy Johnson.

I don't consider that very professional behavior.

by rtang on Sep 28, 2007 6:19 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

to be fair
Randy wanted a 4 year extension the season after having major back surgery.

by Matthew on Sep 28, 2007 7:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair...
...most bosses act a hell of a lot more professionally whenever an ex employee comes up....

by rtang on Sep 28, 2007 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What a surprise,
almost all veterans in the lineup again. Thanks Mac.
My name is Matt Foley. I am 35 years old, I am divorced and I live in A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!

by Coach Owens on Sep 28, 2007 6:21 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Almost all vets for us...
while Cole Hamels conceivably just pitched the Phillies into the playoffs.  But our vets are gritty and hometown faves, so heaven forbid we would've played our youngsters when we had a chance at post-season play -- much less now that we're completely out of it and in need of seeing what these kids bring to the table for next year.  No, I'm not bitter.

by Bodhizefa on Sep 28, 2007 6:27 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Um, Felix? Yuni?
I know this org has a bad philosophy, but let's not act like they throw every talented player they don't like under the bus.

by Gomez on Sep 28, 2007 7:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What?
First he won't play Ellison, now Adam Jones is getting shafted. I think McLaren just flat out is afraid he won't be able to control him once he gets in the lineup.

by JI on Sep 28, 2007 6:36 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I heard
With Soriano was that when he was trying to come back from Tommy John he had been cleared to throw and he was beeing really unenthusastic about coming back and doing work, he liked not playing and being paid. Thats just what i heard. I have no idea how much truth is behind it.
Everytime Richie gets a hit, a small child is murdered....good thing he never gets a hit.

by shunter160 on Sep 28, 2007 6:50 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

That's flat out wrong.
That couldn't be further from the truth.  He had his surgery in August, stayed in Seattle rather than going to the Dominican to rehab until Christmas, and was back throwing rehab appearances in the minors in July/August of the following year.  He returned to pitch for Seattle in the middle of September.  I guarantee you that Rick Griffin would vouch that he worked his tail off that entire winter and recovered ahead of schedule.  

by cookiemonster on Sep 28, 2007 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In Other News,
Adam Jones did something to piss McLaren off really, really bad.

FUCK YOU JOHN MCLAREN.

by tait644 on Sep 28, 2007 6:53 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Phillies winning, Mets losing.
On September 16th, CoolStandings gave the Mets a 97.5% chance of making the playoffs.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 6:55 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Sucks for David Wright
Bye bye MVP. He is 34/39 stealing. Wow.

by JI on Sep 28, 2007 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

JI JIM THOME!
My name is Matt Foley. I am 35 years old, I am divorced and I live in A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!

by Coach Owens on Sep 28, 2007 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

brewers about an hour from being eliminated
on July 2, coolstandings had the Brewers at a 88.8% chance of making the playoffs.

by Matthew on Sep 28, 2007 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There's only one
OCTOBER!!!111one11f113`1

by ThundaPC on Sep 28, 2007 7:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

ahem
actober

by JI on Sep 28, 2007 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

WEVE IMPROVED YES
I AM CERTAINLY GLAD WE NEVER DID A CLEVELAND STYLE TEARDOW THAT PROCESS COULd NEVE RESULT IN TWO 95 WIN SEASONS

by JI on Sep 28, 2007 7:12 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I love how Raul slides to cut that off
and still doesn't return the ball to the infield for five seconds.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 7:13 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Mike Young: .757 road OPS
Ian Kinsler: .690 road OPS

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 7:14 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Kinsler
9th out of 22 major league second basemen (qualifiers) in RZR.

by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
The team OPS at home is 792, and on the road is 726.

Kinsler's home OPS is 921, and his road OPS is 690.

+129 at home vs. -36 on the road is a tradeoff worth taking, I think.

Most of the difference is in batting average.  I don't think the park itself creates a 91 point swing in average, particularly given that he's not the type of hitter whose strengths fit with TBIA's.

by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 7:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm just giving you a hard time.
He had the same kind of split last year, though, which is curious.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah
Soriano and Teixeira had pretty extreme splits, though, and have hit well since leaving Texas.

I don't know how to explain it.

by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ladies and gentlemen,
the best player in the AL West-Michaelllll YOUNG!
My name is Matt Foley. I am 35 years old, I am divorced and I live in A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!

by Coach Owens on Sep 28, 2007 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dave sounded pretty surprised
when he declared that there's no score yet.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 7:17 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Did you see the hit?
I can't remember being so angry. Someone's going to feed Downie his lunch sooner or later.

Season opener tomorrow morning at 9am. You setting your alarm? You know I am.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Related question
Is there any Sopcast equivilent for Macs? Since I got my new computer I've been deprived of watching sports online...

by Nick S on Sep 28, 2007 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, never really got it to work.
Just been listening on the radio for a few years. But now NHL.com is offering Center Ice Online, which is intriguing...

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can you even make out the game
when the picture is 512 x 384 ?

by JI on Sep 28, 2007 7:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haven't tried it yet.
But it has to be better than nothing.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No and no
I can't really get into hockey until I get a team to root for.

I think I'm going to go get NHL '08 for the 360, that'll help.

by Matthew on Sep 28, 2007 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It;s amazing
that 20 games is one of the longest suspensions in NHL history. And Go Redwings!
My name is Matt Foley. I am 35 years old, I am divorced and I live in A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!

by Coach Owens on Sep 28, 2007 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rockies winning streak is an inning away from
coming to an end. They've had chances.

by JI on Sep 28, 2007 7:29 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

You missed

You are . . . slippin' into darkness

by Paytheline on Sep 28, 2007 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

that is a pretty awesome video
i put it in when im feeling down sometimes

by thenatural on Sep 28, 2007 7:40 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Saltalamacchia.
One of the coolest last names in baseball.

by Patrick517 on Sep 28, 2007 7:42 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Neihaus
"An outstanding play by Willie Bloomquist"

ehh...he just picked it up and threw it...

by ThundaPC on Sep 28, 2007 7:45 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

agreed
fuck the human element... get the god damn calls right

by thenatural on Sep 28, 2007 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The M's hate everything about Oakland
and are bitter rivals with SD.

I don't get it.

by JI on Sep 28, 2007 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I dunno...
But there's a Ben Dover on there somewhere on the team, that's for sure...

//no, Broussard's middle name isn't Dover...

Yes. Shrubberies are my trade. I am a shrubber. My name is Rogerthe Shrubber. I arrange, design, and sell shrubberies.

by PositivePaul on Sep 28, 2007 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Phillijuerapraugicago
I hope it gets hit by terrorists.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 7:59 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I hope they win awesomely
or lose spectacularly.

by JI on Sep 28, 2007 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please do not root for the Cubs
If the Wrigleyville crowd gets too excited all those flipped up collars will put someone's eye out.

by MrIncognito on Sep 28, 2007 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hoffman gets the Brewers 1-2-3
He's gonna pitch forever.

by JI on Sep 28, 2007 8:05 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Brandon Fahey: .582 OPS
.625 in AAA this year.

I wonder if an organization has ever demanded that one of its players take steroids before.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 8:08 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

watching this game
ranks among the most meaningless moments in my life.

This, and meeting the Budweiser guys who dressed up like girls to get cheap beer on ladies night, appearing at Jillian's.

by Paytheline on Sep 28, 2007 8:08 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Piniella, Melvin to the playoffs.
All we need now is for Hargrove to lead the Liberal BeeJays to a summer title.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 8:09 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Who would you pick in the NL?
I'd pick Philadelphia if Hamels could get 2 starts, but their bullpen is pretty craptacular.

by JI on Sep 28, 2007 8:13 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm sending you...
...the Texas Rangers pets calendar that I got at the game last Saturday, which has Kinsler and his Bichon Frise for April, 2008...

by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ian Kinsler = flaming queen.
Given how well Bret Boone hit against Texas, I guess I had this coming.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kam Loe
He and C.J. Wilson are the month of May, with their snake and dog, respectively.

Kam Loe with a python around his neck is a pretty weird sight.

by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jeff Weaver totally fucked himself
by not taking that two year deal STL offered him.

by JI on Sep 28, 2007 8:19 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

You're forgetting Adrian Gonzalez.
but that Billy Killian was a winner.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They had nowhere to play him.
They do now.

Otsuka could relieve us to death if he weren't on the DL.

by JI on Sep 28, 2007 8:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey
We also got Akinori Otsuka.

And he'd have brought a great return at the trade deadline this year, if he hadn't been hurt.

by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Great"?
The Gagne package was pretty underwhelming.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gagne
Not as valuable as Otsuka.  He had the no-trade clause, health questions, and is a f.a. after this season.

Otsuka isn't a f.a. until after 2009.

If he'd been healthy, he would have brought a better return than Gagne did.

Although Engel Beltre is a beast.

by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?

by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm still confused...
...about how Wilk and ARod came into the conversation...

by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Al we have left of Mark Langston
is Jeremy Reed and Mike Morse.

In other words, the Rangers had a fantastic player who they dealt in a horrible horrible trade, and then they compounded the matter by trading Soriano for Wilkerson.

by JI on Sep 28, 2007 8:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
Yes, trading ARod was stupid.

I liked the Soriano trade at the time, but Wilkerson hasn't been healthy.

Still, Soriano wasn't generating much trade interest, because he was a lousy second baseman who was a year away from free agency, would make over $10 million in 2006, and who was going to pout if moved to the outfield.  And the Rangers felt Kinsler was ready to take over at 2B.

If the Rangers had hung onto Soriano, they still wouldn't have made the playoffs last year, and they'd still have seen him leave after the season as a f.a.

by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know.
Doesn't make it any less funny from our perspective.

by JI on Sep 28, 2007 8:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even if Otsuka brings back a B+ prospect
that's hardly enough to salvage the Eaton deal. Although I think Chris Young would get murdered in Texas.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My take on the Eaton deal...
...at the time...

http://www.lonestarball.com/story/2005/12/20/14373/361

http://www.lonestarball.com/story/2005/12/20/153344/01

And looking back, I think I wasn't critical enough.

Young is helped by Petco and a great OF defense, but he'd still be pretty good at TBIA.  But Buck thought he couldn't hold up.

by lonestarball on Sep 28, 2007 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's easy to understand the skepticism
if you watch Young pitch without any knowledge of his performance, you'd wonder how he even managed to get this far.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like Dave Sims.
I don't like Blowers' "feeling".

by Patrick517 on Sep 28, 2007 8:29 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Willie was out.
We've scientifically quantified the magnitude of his hustle again.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 8:35 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

So does anyone actually think/care
that Raul is Mr. Mariner besides Chuck and Howie?

by JI on Sep 28, 2007 8:51 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The Final Season isn't even a good story.
Norway High's baseball program was dominant. There's no underdog here.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 8:51 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

yeah, fuck norwegians
go play in your fjords assholes

by thenatural on Sep 28, 2007 9:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The best part
the school still closed after the season.

Fuck you, Norway High.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Clement at bat
First interesting thing so far.

by Patrick517 on Sep 28, 2007 8:57 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Clement's done here
that was a selfish walk.

by JI on Sep 28, 2007 8:57 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The Final Season almost had redeeming value
Eliza Dushku was originally to play Polly Hudson, but she dropped out and Rachael Leigh Cook was given the role.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 8:59 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Hey, it's actually loud in there.
How positively uncharacteristic.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 9:01 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Mike Morse is like Vidro
without the lefthandedness, power, or defense.

by JI on Sep 28, 2007 9:02 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks, Wes.
Please do that more.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 9:08 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I keep forgetting
How many Octobers are there again?

by Nick S on Sep 28, 2007 9:09 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

veteran grit
swinging at first pitch and GIDP...

teaching our young, nubile rookies proper mariners values!

by redwolf75 on Sep 28, 2007 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Norway High had Willie Ballgame
I'm pretty sure they'd still be winning state championships.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 9:10 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Actually, it's a pretty amazing story.
Still, I wouldn't watch the movie even if the players were filmed with Jessica Alba in the showers.

Okay, I would.

by Paytheline on Sep 28, 2007 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

On Baseball-Reference
if you type in "Ballgame", you get back Ted Williams.

I will make it my mission in life to change that.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 9:11 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

So we know which is our good Green
but which was our better White?

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 9:12 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

"Guillen on his horse."
Must be the old grey mare.

by JOlderdude on Sep 28, 2007 9:14 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Holy crap
courtesy of Adam Morris - the Brewers have lost each of the last 22 games that Chris Capuano has started.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 9:14 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

rally Gary Locke?
now THAT would be funny.

by Patrick517 on Sep 28, 2007 9:15 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

"Tough break for Weaver."
Yeah, it's too bad he sucks.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 9:17 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

that movie's stupid preview-guy voice
kind of reminds me of this...

I cant see a movie preview anymore without thinking of this, or the stanley's cup episode where stan coaches the hockey team, and the preview-guy voice follows him around with the record player

by thenatural on Sep 28, 2007 9:31 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

why the hell hasn't ichiro stolen 2nd?
salty is crap on throwing out base runners, and we need ichiro in scoring position to tie the game.

helllo?

by redwolf75 on Sep 28, 2007 9:33 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

It's the perfect storm!
A little ugly chunker! It fits both of the requirements that they be either small of fat.

Get that lardo some rally fries!!!

by Faux on Sep 28, 2007 9:46 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

fun fact!
1 more rbi from vidro and all 9 mariners starters will have had 60+ rbis for the season.

by redwolf75 on Sep 28, 2007 9:55 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm not watching
was Vidro's ball hit hard?

by tait644 on Sep 28, 2007 9:55 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I can't believe
I've got to the point where I get pissed when Vidro does anything positive.

Damn you, Mariners.  Damn you all...

by tait644 on Sep 28, 2007 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jesus Christ that was close.
Okay, JJ.  Throw fucking strikes, please.

by bpdawg24 on Sep 28, 2007 10:04 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Salty Mocha???
Salty Karate Kid???

Better than A.J. Pierzdsjrpoinsdl;fkn rsdasjda;flski

and Doug Monkeywitch/Mientkiewicz

Yes. Shrubberies are my trade. I am a shrubber. My name is Rogerthe Shrubber. I arrange, design, and sell shrubberies.

by PositivePaul on Sep 28, 2007 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

See you
Mariner ownership does not extend to JJ coverage.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 10:09 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Balls can sink, Adrian.
Just because it looks like it's at the belt doesn't mean it'll be at the belt.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 10:12 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Fuckin-A!
I love Jeff Clement!

by Patrick517 on Sep 28, 2007 10:19 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I FUCKING LOVE JEFF CLEMENT!!!
Too bad he has a slow bat speed. :P

by SethGrandpa on Sep 28, 2007 10:19 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

WOW
Speed that bat up, boy!

by Paytheline on Sep 28, 2007 10:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I suggest mass suicide
if Bavasi trades Clement.

OMFG.

Wow.

Just.

Wow.

Yes. Shrubberies are my trade. I am a shrubber. My name is Rogerthe Shrubber. I arrange, design, and sell shrubberies.

by PositivePaul on Sep 28, 2007 10:21 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Screw suicide
If it happens, burn the tree.  And by 'tree' I mean 'Bavasi's house'.

by Gomez on Sep 28, 2007 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oddly enough, Greg Dobbs is receiving
a whistle shot from a Philly stripper in some Broad St. bar, as we speak, to commemorate their probable playoff birth.

by bpdawg24 on Sep 28, 2007 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm. Doubt it...
If there's someone who's wife is hot enough for him to be 100% faithful all the time, it's Greg Dobbs...
Yes. Shrubberies are my trade. I am a shrubber. My name is Rogerthe Shrubber. I arrange, design, and sell shrubberies.

by PositivePaul on Sep 28, 2007 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gosh if we didn't have Vidro under contract...
99% chance the FO would just let Clement DH next year.  It'd be a horrible move cause he still need to catch better, because that's where his value is.  But still you know they'd do it. coughcoughMorrowcoughcough

by SethGrandpa on Sep 28, 2007 10:22 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

It's been amazing
how much Bavasi's trades from the offseason have had a crippling effect on the future.

We are stuck with Vidro, who could possibly block Clement and already blocked Jones.

We got rid of Soriano, which took a great veteran reliever out of the pen AND set back Morrow's development.

Sure glad Bavasi is back next year!!

by tait644 on Sep 28, 2007 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Vidro really isn't the problem
he gets way too much crap 'round here

by Matthew on Sep 28, 2007 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wrong
Vidro blocked Jones this year, and he'll block someone else for the next two years.

He's had a decent year, but he's not good enough to put the playing time of Jones and Clement up in the air.

Not by a long shot.

by tait644 on Sep 28, 2007 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's not Vidro's fault though
and be real, not one person thought Adam Jones or Jeff Clement (or Wlad for that matter) would take the steps forward in '07 that they (all) did.

by Matthew on Sep 28, 2007 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So What
if they didn't know how Clement and Jones would develop?  That's not the point, either.

I'm not blaming Vidro for being what he is (an aging, slow, no-power bat with another two years on his contract), I'm blaming Bavasi for making the deal. And I also note the fact that, while the deal was almost universally panned when it happened, it is now creating a problem for 2008.

Jones has to go to Venezuela to get ABs.  Who knows where he could be developmentally if he'd gotten 200 ABs in Seattle, rather than 62?  

Also, the M's have to account for Vidro when making up the 2008 roster.  Will they have to consider making Raul a 1B, or might they be tempted to refrain from making Jones an everyday player?  

And even if Clement builds on his 2007, and tears the cover off the ball in Tacoma next year, will the M's make room for him?

These are questions that have to be asked because Vidro is on the roster.  And he's just not good enough to justify having those questions hanging over the team...

by tait644 on Sep 28, 2007 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The more I think about this
the more I become in favor of never going into a season committed to a big-money DH. It's just too easy to fill to be worth hamstringing yourself.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

With few exceptions (i.e. Edgar), I agree
Especially when you already have a guy who can do a decent job himself, that you traded for the previous season to fill that exact role.  
Yes. Shrubberies are my trade. I am a shrubber. My name is Rogerthe Shrubber. I arrange, design, and sell shrubberies.

by PositivePaul on Sep 28, 2007 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, Edgar changes everything.
But generally speaking, it just isn't smart to make a big commitment to a guy who only has to hit. There are tons of people capable of doing that for next to nothing.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's the easiest position to fill
See Cust, Jack, and Pena, Carlos.

That and middle reliever...

by tait644 on Sep 28, 2007 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I mostly agree with you
My first comment was just in general.

The trade was stupid. Really really stupid. But that's the FO's fault, not Vidro's.

by Matthew on Sep 28, 2007 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey -
I'll admit, I don't like Vidro.  Part of that dislike comes from my love for Adam Jones, but I think I can say with some objectivity that Vidro simply isn't that good, and isn't worth the roster-construction problems he'll cause.

But this is Bavasi's fault, not Vidro's.

by tait644 on Sep 28, 2007 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

apparently
Vidro's pretty good as a PH.

by Patrick517 on Sep 28, 2007 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not Vidro's fault
that Bill Bavasi traded for him.

by Gomez on Sep 28, 2007 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not Vidro's fault
that he's a fat pig with bum knees and who's favorite snack is hot dogs. Oh wait... Yes it is.
My name is Matt Foley. I am 35 years old, I am divorced and I live in A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!

by Coach Owens on Sep 28, 2007 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think we're all mad,
because of these reasons.
  1. Everyone loves Doyle, despite his injury proneness.
  2. Fruto at 22, could still become a very dependable middle relief or setup guy.
  3. Vidro is a big liability, as he can't run or field, which severely hampers his value, also he has absolutely no power. Despite most likely knowing this, Bavasi still traded for him because of a track record, which we all knew was just going to get worse as he's going into the age were most players decline.
He has worked out pretty well though.
My name is Matt Foley. I am 35 years old, I am divorced and I live in A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!

by Coach Owens on Sep 28, 2007 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If we'd gotten Vidro for free...
...these same people would still be equally ticked.

It's the whole philosophy behind Vidro in the first place -- moreso then what you're trying to explain in #3. The $$$, the unnecessary roster spot clogging (adding a fourth guy to the mix for the DH spot).  

If he squeezed anyone out, it was Broussard.  Having Broussard on the club made the acquisition of Vidro completely unnecessary.  

Yes. Shrubberies are my trade. I am a shrubber. My name is Rogerthe Shrubber. I arrange, design, and sell shrubberies.

by PositivePaul on Sep 28, 2007 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Meh, if we could have
gotten him for nothing and then had a platoon of him and Broussard at DH, I would have been fine with it.
My name is Matt Foley. I am 35 years old, I am divorced and I live in A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!

by Coach Owens on Sep 28, 2007 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would've liked him more a year ago
before I ever thought about the whole LD/BABIP thing. Now he just makes me nervous.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh absolutely
I don't think he's particularly valuable or anything.

I'm just saying he's done about as well as any sane person could have hoped for and he's been useful. Blame Bavasi for blocking the DH spot and forcing Ibanez and Sexson into the field all year. Don't blame Vidro for Bavasi's idiocy.

by Matthew on Sep 28, 2007 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow
That was a bomb...and that was a slow bat.
Everytime Richie gets a hit, a small child is murdered....good thing he never gets a hit.

by shunter160 on Sep 28, 2007 10:22 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

THANKS
Jeff Clement.

seriously, thanks.

by Patrick517 on Sep 28, 2007 10:23 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yay!!
McLaren is a .500 manager!!!!!  Yippee!!!

(good for Clement)

by tait644 on Sep 28, 2007 10:23 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

So I'm predicting,
a Clement, Jones and Wlad for Bob Wickman deal this offseason.
My name is Matt Foley. I am 35 years old, I am divorced and I live in A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!

by Coach Owens on Sep 28, 2007 10:24 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

His bat may be slow.
But he was fast enough to dodge the shaving cream pie.

by JOlderdude on Sep 28, 2007 10:24 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Won't help.
Even if he avoids it at the stadium, I'm pretty sure he's going to wake up at 3 in the morning to JJ standing at the foot of the bed with a fresh pie in his hand.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If i woke up at 3am and JJ was towering over me
I would thank all the gods that exist if all he was about to do involved a shaving cream pie to the face

by Matthew on Sep 28, 2007 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How would your tune change
if JJ had just saved the World Series-clinching win?

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Like a horror movie
Who needs Stephen King when you have JJ Putz and a bottle of shaving cream?

by Gomez on Sep 28, 2007 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bavasi won't trade him
He's the Face of the Franchise come 2009.

by G_ on Sep 28, 2007 10:26 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Did you see the interview?
He's Dan Wilson, just from Iowa instead of Illinois and, you know, good.

by G_ on Sep 28, 2007 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gosh I hate the post game...
They said J.J. vultured the win.  Vulturing is when you give up the lead and then still get the win.

by SethGrandpa on Sep 28, 2007 10:26 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I came home
I turned on the TV.  And Jeff Clement immediately hit a walkoff home run.

That's some awesome timing.

by Gomez on Sep 28, 2007 10:27 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

It was all you.
"I'm not superstitious.  But I am a little stitious."

-Michel Scott

by SethGrandpa on Sep 28, 2007 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Co-cather/co-DH with Kenji would make sense.
But really he should spend a month or two in AAA getting better at catching first.

by SethGrandpa on Sep 28, 2007 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The former seems like the useful approach
They need him to start off catching in Tacoma full-time in 2008 instead of doing the Rob Johnson platoon thing again.

by Gomez on Sep 28, 2007 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wait my idea makes sense.
That means there's 0% chance that the front office would actually do it.

by SethGrandpa on Sep 28, 2007 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You'd need to have a third catcher though
because no manager will want to have his two backstops in the game at the same time.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whither Jamie Burke?
That third catcher would have either the absolute best or absolute worst job in the league, depending on your perspective/work ethic.

If Clement does well through April/May next year, this is something that should be discussed. It never will be, but at least we'll have a shiny new example of organizational inefficiency to bitch about.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Clement would take Broussard's spot
Burke would still keeps his job, and depending on the line up, serve as the right-handed pinch-hitter.  Or you get a Matt LaCroy-type.

But, yeah, it won't happen, and as long as Clement still has a chance to stay behind the plate, he could use the time behind the plate in Tacoma.

by G_ on Sep 28, 2007 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

BURKE!!!
I must see him hit a big league HR

by Matthew on Sep 28, 2007 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah
A smart manager could play him 2 or 3 starts at C and 2 or 3 starts at DH per week.  McLaren?  He would play Sundays and day games when Kenji is hungover.

by G_ on Sep 28, 2007 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

On the bench.
Learning. Like all good rookies.

by JOlderdude on Sep 28, 2007 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not immediately.
He needs to work on his defense in AAA. But if he makes enough progress, I could see him being eased in down the stretch as Kenji's heir apparent in 2009. If we ever let Kenji walk, of which I'm not certain.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

at this point, I'm not sure how I feel about him
he's good enough at the plate and his defense has been legit gold glove this year.

If only he could take a freakin' walk once in awhile.

by Matthew on Sep 28, 2007 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like Kenji fine
but he'll be 33 in 2009, and if Clement's done well enough in Tacoma, then the switch ought to be made.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

probably
2008 will tell us.

If we had smart people running the team, this would be one of those "good problems to have". Since we have what we have, this is a potential catastrophe.

by Matthew on Sep 28, 2007 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dare I say
a potential hilassacre?

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

depends on your attitude going in I guess
after last offseason, I think I'm numb to stupidity, so yeah, I'll probably just find it funny.

Me 12 months ago? Yeah, that wasn't laughter.

by Matthew on Sep 28, 2007 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.
Fortunately we're running out of my favorite players to trade.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's as good as gone.
I've come to terms with that. Snelling and Soriano just blindsided me.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Snelling yeah, Raffy didn't
at least as far as being traded. The return on those trades though...

suffice to say I know how Gene here feels

by Matthew on Sep 28, 2007 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Those commercials will be funny forever.
I knew Raffy was involved in pretty much every trade scenario out there, but part of me still didn't expect him to go anywhere.

That ~week was miserable.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

1B?
they would never do it, but I could go with a Morse/Clement platoon at 1B. Keep Joh and Burke as the primary catchers, but rotate Joh between C and DH more often and give Jeff some starts at C.

by Matthew on Sep 28, 2007 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That makes way too much sense and thus
would never happen.

But it's funny how McLaren raves about "players who have been through the wars" and yet doesn't approve of "platoons".

by JLC on Sep 28, 2007 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

When I write my posts this winter
about (A) what I would do, and (B) what I think is more realistic, it is going to make me depressed.

by Jeff on Sep 28, 2007 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

outcomes:
plan A) Ms turn into juggernaut system while also trimming payroll

plan B) Bill Bavasi makes trades at winter meetings, thousands die.

by Matthew on Sep 28, 2007 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just have to bring this up again...
Look similar to you???
Yes. Shrubberies are my trade. I am a shrubber. My name is Rogerthe Shrubber. I arrange, design, and sell shrubberies.

by PositivePaul on Sep 28, 2007 10:32 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

LOMFL
Well played!
Yes. Shrubberies are my trade. I am a shrubber. My name is Rogerthe Shrubber. I arrange, design, and sell shrubberies.

by PositivePaul on Sep 28, 2007 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

WHAT'S UP GUYS THIS IS JI
JIEFF CLHOME!
My name is Matt Foley. I am 35 years old, I am divorced and I live in A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!

by Coach Owens on Sep 28, 2007 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You lucky son of a gun!
My name is Matt Foley. I am 35 years old, I am divorced and I live in A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!

by Coach Owens on Sep 28, 2007 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

To think, if it weren't for luck,
Jason Ellison and Mike Hargrove quitting, we might very well be about to witness Ichiro's final weekend as a Mariner.

Scary huh?

by Matthew on Sep 28, 2007 10:57 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Also, you guys on TV missed an awesome situation
On the field, the word "THANKS" was written with that lighter sand. Bill Miller was the 2nd base umpire.

In about the 3rd inning, Willie wrote "Miller" in the light sand, and it took Miller about 4 innings to notice it and he wiped it off.

Washington Highways

by I'm NOT Corco on Sep 28, 2007 11:07 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Chuck Armstrong
You may be onto something with Armstrong. I happened to hear him speak to a small group of people the other night and he talked about the Mariners really looking at character in who they bring to the team. He referenced maybe four times during the 40 minutes he talked to us the NBA and "those guys with tattoos." At the time I kind of thought his consistently referencing "those guys with tattoos was coded language. After reading your post about Armstrong's comments on Soriano, I'm more convinced it was the classic coded language of a racist. There should be more investigation of this.

by munsrat on Sep 28, 2007 11:56 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I do not believe Chuck Armstrong is a racist.
That would be a wild and libelous thing for me to suggest. After all, he's had no problem with several other Latin players over the years. I do, however, think he and the rest of the organization are uncomfortable with some of their "entourages", and on occasion they allow this discomfort to cloud their judgment.

by Jeff on Sep 29, 2007 12:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

More Chuck Armstrong
Some of his best friends are Latin players, I'm sure. Maybe I was too strong but I do think this deserves more scrutiny.

by munsrat on Sep 29, 2007 12:11 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, while I agree with you
it's not really something we can investigate. We have no way of ever knowing Armstrong's "true" motives. We can make inferences based on patterns, but a data sample of three points (Garcia, Guillen, Soriano) is incredibly limited.

I think I'll just leave it like this - sometimes Chuck Armstrong lets inaccurate character judgments shape his opinions of certain players, and that doesn't sit well with me.

by Jeff on Sep 29, 2007 12:15 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also
you better believe that Armstrong's going to be hearing from Raffy's agent.

by Jeff on Sep 29, 2007 12:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So?
I don't see any evidence of Chuck Armstrong being a racist. If he was "uncomfortable" with the group of people a big hick player hung out with, would anyone here dare say he was racist, were Chuck Armstrong black/Hispanic? I seriously doubt it.

Just because some folks want their employees to act like adults doesn't mean any of us have the right to suggest racism, should the employees be colored. That immediately blankets the topic in emotion and reactionism, and eliminates any chance of meaningful dialogue.

If Chuck Armstrong doesn't want his employees to act like fools, that's his choice. He's the boss. If we don't like it, we don't have to buy tickets. I'm really disappointed that an intelligent individual such as yourself immediately plays the race card. You know this isn't about race, so why suggest it?

Willie is ours, and you can't have him

by spittle8 on Sep 29, 2007 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uh
I didn't call him a racist. I actually said the opposite of that.

by Jeff on Sep 29, 2007 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

As I read it
...you were all but calling him one. My reasoning:

"I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that I know you're all thinking, but this isn't the first time this has happened to a Latin player on the team, and to use it as a justification for shipping one out of town in exchange for pennies on the dollar - especially so long after the fact - is unnecessary and offensive."

"and having a group of predominantly Latin friends and supporters that made certain people in the organization uncomfortable. You know, the same kinds of friends and supporters that get mentioned on the scoreboard when they're there for Willie, or who're talked about in glowing terms on the broadcast when they're in Anaheim for Jeremy Reed. Somehow Willie's posse is just a bunch of good guys who don't pose any threat, while Raffy's gets stuck with the label of being an intimidating entourage."

How else should I interpret that? Not that I know anything about it, but are Willie's friends like Raffy's in regards to behavior? If not, then why mention it? Why bring up race if it's not a factor?

Willie is ours, and you can't have him

by spittle8 on Sep 29, 2007 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe race was a factor
but that doesn't make Chuck Armstrong a racist. This team has had far more Latin players that it liked than Latin players that it didn't. I mean, hell, they're trying to extend Jose Guillen as we speak.

It is my belief that Armstrong didn't like the way Soriano, Guillen, and Garcia went about their business, and at the same time was uncomfortable with and intimidated by the kinds of people they chose to hang out with. Those people have been predominantly Latin (and, to the best of my knowledge, have never caused any significant trouble) (unless you think going out on the town is problematic). I think this speaks to an unfortunate and most probably subconscious prejudice on Armstrong's part, but I do not think it makes him a racist. In fact, I don't think it makes him any different than the overwhelming majority of the population. It's just a bad quality for a man with that much power to have.

by Jeff on Sep 29, 2007 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was me that suggested race
Yeah, Jeff, did not suggest race. It was me. I did suggest that racism may play a part because of both Armstrong's Soriano comments and his comments about "those guys with tattoos" in the NBA. I probably should have been more careful in not saying this means Armstrong is definitely a racist but it does make one raise an eyebrow. My raising this concern is not "playing a race card." It is raising a legitimate concern at dubious comments by an executive who runs a team supported by taxpayer money.  Saying someone is playing a race card is not an argument or an analysis, it is a cliched attack. Armstrong's comments deserve more scrutiny. Putting race aside, Armstrong making vague accusations against Soriano without speciying them or providing any evidence is cowardly at best and McCarthyite at worst.

by munsrat on Sep 29, 2007 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for resolving that
As usual, you're much more intelligent than I. As for that little prejudice, I think we all struggle with it. I know I do.
Willie is ours, and you can't have him

by spittle8 on Sep 30, 2007 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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