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A Challenge

Tiny by Jeff on in Regular News

Let's cut through all the bullshit for a minute.

-Carlos Silva is an average pitcher, and nothing more
-Carlos Silva is an improvement
-Carlos Silva's contract isn't a good one
-Carlos Silva's contract isn't going to cripple the team on its own

There. This isn't a genius way of addressing a roster that we all want to see contend next year, but it's better than trading nigh everything we have in the upper levels for two years of Erik Bedard (which, granted, may still happen). So it could've been worse.

With that out of the way...

In 2008, the Mariners will be paying ~$51m to the likes of Richie Sexson, Carlos Silva, Jarrod Washburn, Miguel Batista, and Jose Vidro.

Identify any other non-Yankees teams who will be spending that much (gross or by proportion) on such a thoroughly mediocre group of players, and report back on how well they're doing.

Use this as your salary resource.

0 recs | Comment 85 comments

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Why just baseball?
The stupidity must compare badly to other sports too, regardless of cap or tax restrictions.
Detect-O-Vision

Favor the Bold

by IcebreakerX on Dec 21, 2007 1:06 AM PST   0 recs

You're right.
I'm just not nearly as familiar with player value in other sports.

by Jeff on Dec 21, 2007 1:13 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Jerome James
quite possibly is the worst contract in the history or sports.

by Slica on Dec 21, 2007 1:20 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Jim McIlvaine anyone?

by BaltimoreMarinersFan on Dec 21, 2007 6:10 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Ugh....
I was trying to remember his name. Now that you said it I want to forget it again.

by Ben in Va on Dec 21, 2007 6:35 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

It's a tough one
but I'm going to go with the Mets:

Delgado, who did not put up great numbers last year at .258/.333/.448 ($16M)

Pedro Martinez, injured most of '07 with poor numbers in '06 ($11M)

Moises Alou, in his age 41 year, can only play half the time even if he does hit .341/.392/.524 like he did last year ($7.5M)

Orlando Hernandez ($6.5M), increasing his walks from '06 to '07 despite about 10 fewer IP, in his age 42 season according to BBReferece.

Luis Castillo ($6M), who had a lower OPS in '07 than our own Jose "Turbo" Vidro.

That rounds out to $50M, which is close to the M's fab five, but I'm not sure what to make of Alou's half-time and Pedro's injuries.

by tworsandtwols on Dec 21, 2007 1:14 AM PST   0 recs

Good guess
Though at the time those players were signed, most of them were still impact players.

by Gomez on Dec 21, 2007 7:21 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Delgado was plan A for Sexson, but...
He's on the hook for $16M this year, and has a $16M option ($4M buyout) for '09.

Sexson's going to be given $14M this year and his deal is done.

Delgado's OPS, last 3 yrs: .981, .909, .781

Sexson's: .910, .842, .694

In retrospect, whose deal do you take?

by tworsandtwols on Dec 21, 2007 1:12 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

That doesn't really tell the whole story
Richie Sexson is probably the worst defensive first baseman in baseball. Carlos Delgado is about average.

I'd much rather have Delgado. Especially with his being a lefty.

by Jeff on Dec 21, 2007 1:16 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

But he's tall!

by tworsandtwols on Dec 21, 2007 1:37 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

CS52
Anyone else notice the jersey hanging in the press conference??

Carlos Silva 52?

by tkballer22 on Dec 21, 2007 1:27 AM PST   0 recs

Um
Unless GS(52) changed his number, I'm a tad worried.

by Gomez on Dec 21, 2007 7:16 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

//Channels Vada Sultenfuss...
"Do Wa diddy diddy DUM Diddy DOOOOO"
"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Dec 21, 2007 8:52 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

ChiSox
Thome (14), Buehrle (14), Contreras (10), Dye  (9.5), Pierzynski (5.5) giving a total of 53.

Some are debateable. Buehrle isn't that great, Thome is old and injury prone, Dye is declining, Contreras sucks and AJ isn't that great.

The answer: not well.

Tigers:
Rodriguez (13), Guillen (12), Willis (6.45), Rogers (8), Jones (7), Inge (6.2), total of 52

Pudge is declining, Guillen doesn't hold as much value at 1st IMO, Willis sucks, Rogers is old and injury prone, Jones isn't that great and Inge is all D and likely a backup now.

The answer: Better than us

Giants:
Zito (14.5), Rowand (~12), Winn (8), Durham (7.5), Roberts (6.5) for ~48.5. You could add in Vizquel and Molina and take out Rowand for about the same figure

Result: shit

Angels:
Anderson (12), Garland (12), Matthews (9), Speier (4.75), Figgins (4.75), Shields (4.25) for 46.75

This one is pretty arguable, I'll admit, but you could potentially argue for Hunter being included.

Result: Better than us

Dodgers:
Schmidt (12), Kuroda (12 (including 7 mill bonus)), Kent (11.5), Garciaparra (8.5), Pierre (8) for 52

Result: probably the same or slightly better

So that's 5 teams that have about the same collection of talent for the same price, with two doing well because of good investments and prospects, two doing poorly for shitty investments and one doing average. Texas is in this field in 09 with Young's deal starting and Houston, Philly and the Cubs are in the periphery

That was probably more work than it was worth. Don't be too harsh.

When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade.

by Mariner John on Dec 21, 2007 1:58 AM PST   0 recs

I thought about SF
IIRC, Atlanta was in the same area as well.

by tworsandtwols on Dec 21, 2007 2:02 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Paying for star level production is not a problem
The White Sox, Tigers, Giants, and Dodgers groups include players who performed at a star level last year.  Thome was 5th among AL qualifiers with an 973 OPS, Guillen was 14th in the AL with an 859 OPS(which would have been 2nd in the AL among 1B behind Carlos Pena), Rowand was 18th among NL qualifiers with an 889 OPS (1st among CF), and Kent was 22nd in the NL with an 876 OPS(2nd among 2B).  As for the Angles, Anderson was at 827, same as Ichiro (827), and Figgins was at 825.  

The Seattle group is the worst.

by G_ on Dec 21, 2007 10:18 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Thome? Rowand? Figgins? Guillen?
And if GA counts, then so does Raul.

by Jeff on Dec 21, 2007 10:55 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Like I said
It's not set in stone.
When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade.

by Mariner John on Dec 22, 2007 1:23 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

The Cubs spring to mind immediately.
Anyway, saw Churchill's report on Colon.  Man, I don't want to touch that now with a 20 foot pole.
I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not...

by TIF on Dec 21, 2007 6:00 AM PST   0 recs

I am getting used to being mocked
every off-season.  From the Pioneer Press:

"Well, it occurs to me that if Silva is worth ... worth ... forty ... I can't even type it into my laptop. My hands shake. Anyway, if he got that much, then Johan Santana's value just shot out of the stratosphere and into orbit."

by KC on Dec 21, 2007 6:00 AM PST   0 recs

Anybody know
what's up with this Jeff Samardzija guy on the Cubs?  They drafted him from Notre Dame in the 5th round last year and gave him a 5yr/$10M contract through 2011, but looking at www.baseballcube.com, he doesn't seem to be all that special - he doesn't miss bats much, his BB/9 rate is good but not amazing, and the only thing he seems to excel at is preventing HRs, which I assume means he gets lots of GBs.  

Is this just a matter of Notre Dame hype and the fact that the Cubs had to pry him away from football?  I have to give him credit for one thing, though:  He has an amazingly ridiculous fan website.

by Nadingo on Dec 21, 2007 7:07 AM PST   0 recs

I'm pretty sure
they just wanted to keep him away from football.
Free Adam Jones

by bluemax on Dec 21, 2007 11:44 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

The Mariners must make
a minimum on one terrible personnel move every winter, whether because of the talent involved, the money involved, or both.

by Gomez on Dec 21, 2007 7:22 AM PST   0 recs

Ridiculous
Checkout this quote from Bavasi about Carlos Silva in the ESPN article: "I think he's a good fit for any club," Bavasi said. "Guys who get American League hitters out fit anywhere."

At first I thought he was talking about Bedard, but after rereading this he was indeed talking about Silva.  A man with a career opponent batting average of .299 "gets American League hitters out."  A guy who the league hit .324 against (with a 5.94 ERA) in 2006, "gets American League hitters out."

GIVE ME A BREAK!!!

Here's a good breakdown of how the M's rotation compares to the league avg: http://marinerlog.blogspot.com/2007/12/whats-good.html

by PP on Dec 21, 2007 8:55 AM PST   0 recs

Maybe he just meant
"a guy who got an American League hitter out once will fit anywhere".
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 21, 2007 8:56 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Even better!
During the presser, he said this gem:

We wanted to add some power to the rotation.

Silva.  Power.  

One of those things is NOT like the other...

"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Dec 21, 2007 9:01 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Power!
How many pitchers can throw 180 IP and only strike out 80 guys?  That is TOUGH to do.  Silva is definitely a unique talent.

by PP on Dec 21, 2007 9:09 AM PST   0 recs

Paul Byrd
Silva is the groundball version of Byrd.

by G_ on Dec 21, 2007 10:19 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Okay, how about Boston?
JD Drew: 14m
Varitek: 9m
Julio Lugo:9m
Dice K: 8m (not counting posting fees)

Then you add the bench and some so-so guys:

Covelli (!) Crisp: 4.75m (great defense, but expensive for a glove) Alex Cora: 2m.

Then after that I'm realizing it's not as bad as it looked at first glance. Still, some of those contracts would kill other teams.

I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 21, 2007 10:43 AM PST   0 recs

I think the posting fee should count for DiceK
Boston was able to get him for 8M for a reason and that reason had everything to do with the 50+M they spent to eliminate any leverage Daisuke and his agent could bring.

I don't care if it "comes from a different budget" or whatever, Daisuke cost the Sox 103M for a 5 year contract.

by Matthew on Dec 21, 2007 10:52 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

I agree, it should be taken into consideration.
I just didn't have time right that moment to pro-rate it out to a yearly average.
I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 21, 2007 10:55 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Posting fee
was basically $50 million, so

Drew: 14m
Varitek: 9m
Lugo: 9m
Dice-K: 18m

Which adds up to a nice round 50 million for those 4 players.  Unfortunately, when you add in Dice-K's posting fee, the Sox are spending like $160 million next year, so you take away that $50 mil and you're left with roughly the M's payroll.  When you've got that kind of money to throw around, you can afford more mistakes.

*Visiting Angels fan* Never give up, never surrender!

by TheOptimist on Dec 21, 2007 4:25 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Hmmm
Astros have
$13m to Tejada
$6.25m to Woody Williams
$5m to Kaz Matsui

That's much less than the M's have tied up in mediocrity, but their payroll is lower (not THAT much lower) and that's pretty damned mediocre.    

St.L have:
$12m to Scott Rolen
$10.5m to Chris Carpenter
$6.5m to Juan Encarnacion
$6.5m to Mark Mulder
$5m to Joel Pineiro
$3.5m to Adam Kennedy
$2.3m to Player A
$2.25m to Ryan Franklin

That's a total of $48.55 for a bunch of ex-stars and ex-M's, out of a total payroll of $90.3m (2007 figure).  That's well over 50%, whereas the M's total is just shy of that.  

Cardinals 'win.'

by marc w on Dec 21, 2007 11:05 AM PST   0 recs

I know : (
Although there are worse things to have $10m wrapped up in than in Chris Carpenter. He's only going to miss half the year or so.
"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 21, 2007 11:10 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

That's pretty good.
I also expected the Rangers to get a little more love in this thread than they have.

The bottom line being, bad teams have money tied up in mediocre players.

by Jeff on Dec 21, 2007 11:15 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

oh yeah, Texas
Millwood: 8.5
Padilla: 11
Blalock: 6
Young: 5 (jumps to 16 next year for the next 4! hahaha)
Cat: 4
Broussard: 4

that's nearly 40M of their 70M payroll. You know, frankly all of Texas is pretty mediocre.

by Matthew on Dec 21, 2007 11:18 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Michael Young
is the best position player in the AL West!

by Graham on Dec 21, 2007 11:19 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Worst contract in the division.
He's about as good as vintage Mark Grudzielanek too.
"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 21, 2007 11:22 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Barry Zito.
Mike Hampton is probably the worst ever.

This seems like it needs a new entry.

"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 21, 2007 11:29 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

If a player just sucks (Zito)
I think that makes his contract worse than when a player is injured (Hampton).
I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 21, 2007 11:37 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Disagree.
Hampton sucked for four of five years of his deal, and then he got hurt. He's pitched 70 innings the last three seasons and made about $45m.
"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 21, 2007 11:40 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Was he that bad before he was injured?
I honestly can't remember. My main memory of him since he went to Atlanta is remembering him being a pretty good hitter for a pitcher.
I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 21, 2007 11:41 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

That's WITH the A-Rod subsidy coming off the books
"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 21, 2007 11:23 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

2006 was the luckyest season ever
What a horrible team. The Cardinals will be competitive again in 2042.
"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 21, 2007 11:21 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

The thing about the Cards though
is that it gets worse in 09 and 10.

Whatever's left of Scott Rolen will still be getting paid, as will Mulder/Encarnacion/Carpenter, all of whom are coming off of serious injuries.  

Then, you've got the escalators on Pineiro's deal (mmmphrphHA HA HA HA!) and another year of Franklin.

Wow.   They better hope Reyes figures some shit out, that Rasmus is ready quickly and that Ankiel's fairy tale isn't over.

by marc w on Dec 21, 2007 11:24 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Encarnacion is (literally) finished. Can't see.
Mulder is a complete bust, CC is recovering from TJ surgery, and will probably still return value on his deal (which 3/45 is still pretty good for a pitcher of that caliber). But yeah, we're losing a 140 games this year.  
"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 21, 2007 11:29 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

I thought I'd heard that but didn't know if it
was 'official.'  He was always a long shot to come back, but he's retired now?

What's up with Mulder?  Any word on how his second rotator cuff surgery went?

You've got a lot of faith in CC, which is fine - and yes, TJ surgery is generally easier to recover from (somewhere Jesse Foppert is banging his head against a wall), but I'm not sure about a guy who's got both a surgically repaired shoulder AND elbow.  He may in fact return some value in 08, but the fact that he's under contract for three more years would really scare me.  

by marc w on Dec 21, 2007 11:32 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

I've lived through the mark Mulder
debacle. Nothing scares me. Plus, TJ is the safest major surgery a guy can have. It still has the potential not to blow in the future even though years 1 and 2 will like be complete busts.
"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 21, 2007 11:37 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Encarnacion is (literally) finished. Can't see. ??
What happened to him?
I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 21, 2007 11:38 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Line drive to the face.
He was hit in the eye socket with a batted ball while in the on deck circle last August(?). I don't know how that works out for payroll purposes though. I assume he gets paid, but I don't know if it counts against payroll.
"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 21, 2007 11:42 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Here we go:
Eye Injury

On August 31, Encarnacion was struck in the face by a foul ball hit by Aaron Miles while he was on the on-deck circle. Encarnacion suffered multiple fractures to his left eye socket and an injury to his left eye and missed the remainder of the 2007 season. [7] The injury was regarded by the Cardinals' head team physician, Dr. George Paletta, to be the the worst injury he'd ever seen to the face on a baseball player. The future of Encarnacion's career is unknown and could be in serious jeopardy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Encarnacion

"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 21, 2007 11:42 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Damn!!
How did I not hear about that? I sure feel sorry for him. Hell of a way to end your career, not to mention having a huge affect on the rest of your life.
I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 21, 2007 11:57 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

He has one hell of a wiki entry
for such a generic ballplayer.

I do wish him the best, (even though getting him out of RF really helps the team).

"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 21, 2007 12:00 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

He needs to learn to duck:
"In September of 1999, Encarnacion was hit in the face by a pitch and missed the remainder of the season. He received several stitches to close a wound to his jaw and lip."
I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 21, 2007 12:02 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

About the funds....
I suspect that contract insurance probably would cover that salary, if he has to retire.  It might count, on paper, towards the payroll, but the insurance company will likely foot the bill, rather than the club.  And (were the Cardinals to get even MORE stupid, which wouldn't surprise me since I tend to cheer for really stupid teams and the Cards are my fave NL team), I'd doubt it would count against the payroll luxury tax were they to escalate it that highly...
"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Dec 21, 2007 11:47 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

I miss 2000-2005.
"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 21, 2007 11:53 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

It's worse
$3m to Cesar Izturis
$4.25 to Tony LaRussa
$3.5 to Braden Looper

That bumps the total closer to $50m.

"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 21, 2007 11:26 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Yeah
I was trying to stick only to the unambiguous cases, otherwise I'd have been tempted to add Carlos Lee's albatross to Houston.  
3.5 to Braden Looper isn't a terrible deal.  Or is he hurt or something?  

by marc w on Dec 21, 2007 11:29 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

just plain sucks
he's a 5.50 ERA guy as a starter in the NL, luck and defense being equal.

Not a bad deal, but there are guys just like him in the minors that can suck for free. He's their Chris Reitsma.

"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 21, 2007 11:31 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

He's been solid out of the pen
no law against putting him back out there.  

by marc w on Dec 21, 2007 11:33 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Have you seen that rotation?
And he blew his first year out of the pen in STL.
"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 21, 2007 11:35 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

He did?
"And he blew his first year out of the pen in STL."

125 ERA+, 3.33 FIP, fairly standard LOB%.   That's pretty good.   Maybe not amazing, but I'd take that.

by marc w on Dec 21, 2007 11:45 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

He gave up a lot of hits
didn't strike many guys out, and was awful against lefties.
"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 21, 2007 11:52 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Giving up a lot of hits
tends to come with the GB-pitcher territory.
Low K's, low walks, GB tendencies, not a bad contract... again, I don't think it's a crippler, and I don't think he sucked in 2006.  
He wasn't good in 2007, but for 3.5m, he's not exactly the problem.

by marc w on Dec 21, 2007 1:12 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I can't figure out what the Astros are doing.
They aren't rebuilding, but it's almost like they are purposely stocking up on over-the-hill veterans.

And wow, the Cards really are throwing a good chunk of their payroll at bad and/or questionable players.

We think we have it bad, but there are many people in other cities who have to feel the same way. Of course, even Yankee and BoSox fans are never happy.

I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 21, 2007 11:30 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

They are in complete win now mode.
...and it ain't happening because the Brewers and Cubs will probably finish .500.
"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 21, 2007 11:34 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Win now??
Man, they should have signed Carlos Silva! (sarcasm ends)
I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 21, 2007 11:40 AM PST to parent up   0 recs