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Okay, Let's Talk About Erik Bedard

So, for potentially murky reasons, the Mariners whiffed on Hiroki Kuroda. Say what you will about the wisdom of giving that guy $35m+ over three years; the bottom line is that, no matter how you feel about Kuroda, the M's were banking on landing him, and now that they they've missed out they have to go to the backup plan. And this isn't an organization that excels at backup plans.

The four most prominent names right now are Bedard, Johan Santana, Carlos Silva, and Kyle Lohse. The Mariners aren't going to get Santana, though, and since no one in his right mind wants to talk about Silva or Lohse on purpose, we're left with Bedard. Let's brainstorm.

I'll get right to it - trading for Bedard, to me, only make sense if you think the Mariners have a 2008-2009 window of opportunity that they have to seize. After that, of course, he's due to be a free agent.

It's a tempting idea. Erik Bedard was the best pitcher in baseball last year, and it'd be hard to beat a one-two punch of Bedard/Felix, assuming Felix finally gets his shit together. Granted, that's only two players, but back in 2001 Arizona rode Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling, and an offense no better than ours all the way to a championship. It's funny how far you can get sometimes with an average roster topped off by two aces.

That would definitely be the biggest selling point, I think. "Mariners need pitching, land ace to pair with developing phenom." A #1 starter is perceived as the most dramatic roster upgrade you can get from any one player, and were the M's to bring him in, they'd be in terrific shape for the playoffs were they to win the division or, somehow, the Wild Card. And the whole deal would also serve to re-energize a fan base that's still sore from last August. Try to imagine trading for Erik Bedard and then not being at least a little more excited for the season to start. You can't. The immediate emotional response to acquiring that kind of pitcher is quite positive.

That's the upside. If you think the Mariners ought to be playing for the next two years, then Bedard's not a bad guy to go after. He'd make the team ~30 runs better by himself, and he'd give us arguably the best 1-2 starters in baseball (unless Boston ends up with Santana). You better believe teams would be openly weeping at the prospect of having to face both Bedard and Felix in a three-game series.

Now, what about the other perspective?

There are two ways to look at this from the other side. The first is by calling into question the true impact of trading for Bedard. Bedard projects to be somewhere around 30 runs better than an average starter next year (give or take, I dunno, five). That'd be a huge gain for the Mariners, but you can't just take that number and run with it, because there'd be more to the deal. At the bare minimum, you'd be losing Adam Jones from the ML roster. You then have to replace Jones with somebody. Wlad? That'll cost you ten runs with the glove. Trot Nixon? Kenny Lofton? No better. Geoff Jenkins would be cool, but he's on the verge of signing somewhere else. Brad Wilkerson? Okay, whatever, but he's no AJ. The point is, replacing Jones with an inferior right fielder takes away from the value that Bedard adds to the roster. And if you have to give away other bits of the roster, too (like Sherrill), then you're losing even more. This point is largely moot if you don't think that AJ is ready to contribute, but I think he is, so, yeah.

The other way to look at it is this - 2008/2009 window? Really? The Mariners finished six games behind the Angels last season, and in Pythagorean terms, they were really more like ten games worse. So far this winter the Angels have lost Orlando Cabrera and gained Torii Hunter and Jon Garland. The Mariners, meanwhile, have lost Jose Guillen and replaced him with Adam Jones. Yeah, Weaver and (probably) Horacio are taking their 47 miserable starts somewhere else, but LA's also ditching Bartolo Colon, so even if we've made up a little ground, the gap between us is still damn big, too big for Bedard to erase by himself. Bring him in and we're still just a better version of the second-best team in the division.

For what reason should we be focusing on the next two years? The Mariners don't have a prayer of winning the Wild Card, meaning the West is our only shot, and the Angels are a significantly better team than we are. If anything, we should be re-stocking so as to mount a charge after the next two years. Not only is a lot of the Angels' core over 30, but everyone important besides Hunter, Matthews, Kotchman, Kendrick, and Weaver is coming up on free agency. The Mariners, meanwhile, will have all of their crap coming off the books and a lot of their young talent coming up through the ranks to join Ichiro, Felix, Morrow, JJ, and Yuni. Opportunity beckons. We just have to be patient.

I'll stop there because that's basically a whole other post. What it comes down to is that I can't in good faith support the idea of unloading a hefty package to bring in Erik Bedard. If the Mariners were just about even with the Angels, or if the Wild Card were wide open, then yeah, I'd be more receptive, but they're behind the rest of the pack by a comfortable margin, and if Bedard only increases the odds of making the postseason from, say, 15% to 20-25%, then I don't think it's worth it. The long-term cost would just be far too large for the short-term gain.

This isn't just a case of some Mariners blogger overrating his team's prospects, either. Jones isn't a sure thing. Morrow isn't a sure thing. Nobody, not even Triunfel, is a sure thing. Everybody we'd trade for Bedard could turn into a bust. However, just because something could happen doesn't make it a valid reason to make a move or stand still; you need to look at the probabilities, and to me they say that we'd be better off keeping Jones+ than we would be dealing them for two seasons of Bedard.

Look, in no way do I want to just write off both 2008 and 2009 in anticipation of making a run three years from now. This isn't a bad team, and conceding defeat this early on the heels of the first interesting summer in ages isn't going to make people happy. With that said, there are ways to make this team better, ways to make it more competitive, that don't involve sacrificing so much of our promising future. Trade for one of the Devil Rays. Pay someone to take Sexson and bring in a left fielder. Sign Colon, Clement, or some other reclamation project and hope they stay healthy long enough for Morrow to make some major strides in AAA. And so on and so forth. None of these things is nearly as sexy as bringing in a clear #1, but as a whole they're just about as effective, and none of them involves giving away many things we may need down the road. That's the key. What Bill Bavasi should be doing right now is figuring out a way to make this team better while simultaneously protecting much of the talent that could help us later on, when our chances will be better.

I absolutely love Erik Bedard. He's a phenomenal and inexplicably underrated stud starting pitcher, and if the Mariners bring him in, then two days out of every five, I won't be able to wait for the first pitch.

I do not, however, think that trading for him, at the assumed price, would be in our best interests. Not for a team in our position.

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I have a hard time seeing us finish .500
next year with virtually no production from firstbase or DH, and Raul dragging this team down in LF. This team needs a big bat as well as an ace. In the position we're in two years of Bedard is not worth 6 of Jones.
"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 16, 2007 8:50 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I think Sexson will hit okay
but barring something unforeseen, I think we're somewhere around .500 right now, with some upside if Felix finally takes off. But the Angels are way better. We need to narrow that gap without losing future pieces.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 16, 2007 9:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Consider me skeptical.
The biggest problem is Vidro. That trade still haunts us-- there are a bunch of ok hit, ok field LFers that could approximate his production with the bat while saving us few dozen runs of defense.

: |

"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 16, 2007 11:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Vidro's inevitable decline
should, in theory, be offset by Sexson's rebound.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 16, 2007 11:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I saw this mentioned elsewhere
But if we trade our big prospects for him, and next year is a bust, is there a chance we could trade him again before 2009 to a team in the running and replace said prospects? Look at what people are willing to give up for Santana's 1 year.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 16, 2007 9:06 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Regardless of the smartness
I think it ends up happening and along with Jones is going to at least one of {Clement, Morrow} and probably a couple other B level 'spects.

by Matthew on Dec 16, 2007 9:12 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I think we make the mistake of
overvaluing our prospects here...yeah, seriously

The thing is we have to decide the direction we're headed - as the reason for a farm system is either to groom them for the ML or trade them for stars.

As we know, prospects rarely live up to their potential (see Corey Patterson).  Remember back in the early 2000s when we thought that by now our rotation would be led by Pineiro, Meche, and Franklin? I remember that Tacoma was oozing with pitching prospects - Thornton, Blakely, and even Ryan Anderson (what a depressing story btw) etc, and look at what happened?

So no, I don't believe we should totally scorch the farm system, but I do recognize that we shouldn't treat prospects anymore than what they are - unpolished/unfinished products.

"You just got AJ-aculated on! In Baltimore?"

by wwbaker3 on Dec 16, 2007 9:21 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Notice that all those prospects you named were
pitchers.
These pretzels....are making me thirsty!

by Goose on Dec 16, 2007 9:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...
All prospects fail!  See, this one guy failed!  Sure, some prospects make it, but mostly star-level major league talent magically appears out of thin air.
For it is the greatest truth of our age: information is not knowledge. -Caleb Carr

by helfgott on Dec 16, 2007 9:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That is not what he is saying
He is saying that prospects are a question mark and many of them do not pan out, even the top ones.

by Gomez on Dec 16, 2007 9:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No
He's saying "prospects rarely live up to their potential."  Translation: most prospects fail.

In the case of elite hitting prospects, it's demonstrably false.

For it is the greatest truth of our age: information is not knowledge. -Caleb Carr

by helfgott on Dec 17, 2007 12:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That depends on your definition
of an 'elite prospect.'

And that doesn't disprove his statement that prospects rarely live up to their potential.  Most prospects overall don't, even top ones.  Citing elite prospects is citing the cream of that crop, rather than the whole body of prospects.

by Gomez on Dec 17, 2007 9:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Right.
And the one prospect the community is really worried about losing is the one elite hitting talent we have.
For it is the greatest truth of our age: information is not knowledge. -Caleb Carr

by helfgott on Dec 17, 2007 10:09 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Basically
We can drop the idea that we're talking about "prospects" in general in this thread.  The central question on everyone's mind is whether it's worth losing Jones and several other potentially valuable players for a star level pitcher.  

If  Jones were not in the discussion there isn't a combination of 4 Ms minor leaguers/young major leaguers I wouldn't be happy sending off for Bedard, and I'm guessing most people here feel the same way.  

The category of prospects to which Jones unquestionably belongs has a very good success rate of at least becoming above average major league players.  The super athletic ones who play premium positions have an even better success rate.

"Most prospects overall don't, even top ones."

You've said this twice now in the exact same language.  You've been wrong both times.  

A prospect doesn't need to become an all star to "pan out" and become a valuable player.

For it is the greatest truth of our age: information is not knowledge. -Caleb Carr

by helfgott on Dec 17, 2007 10:25 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But not all prospects 'pan out'
And by 'pan out', I mean become regular contributors at a level discernably above replacement level.  There is no guarantee Adam Jones becomes such a regular, in the sense that he puts up the requisite performance given the chance.

He possibly could.  And he possibly couldn't.  And that's the point.

You need to do a better job of explaining why I'm wrong.

by Gomez on Dec 17, 2007 10:46 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Anybody could possibly do or not do anything
Bedard could possibly blow out his arm on opening day and never pitch again.  Jose Lopez could possibly hit 30 HR next season.  I could possibly slip on a baseball on the grass and torque my elbow in such a way that it allowed me to throw 100+ mph and get signed by the Cubs.

We can't predict the future, so instead we look at probable outcomes based on previous history.  Jones will probably become a regular contributor at a decent-to-very-high level, based on the history of previous players with similar skills and track records to his.  That's the real point.

by patsfan on Dec 17, 2007 11:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's a rather optimistic generalization
I haven't the time at the moment, but I'll need to dig for comps on Adam Jones when I do.  And even good comps are only educated guesses at what a player will do.  To speak of Adam Jones like he is a lock to hold down a lineup spot with an .850+ OPS and solid defense is premature no matter how talented he is or who his comps are.

More later.

by Gomez on Dec 17, 2007 4:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?
How is "Jones will probably become a regular contributor at a decent-to-very-high level" a 'rather optimistic generalization'?

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 5:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Conversely
How are you so certain he will?

by Gomez on Dec 18, 2007 9:14 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Because he's really good?
Why is anyone high on A-level prospects?

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 9:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We all seem to be underrating Jones, actually
.983 OPS in a hitters park in AAA at 21 years old. 21!

Jesus.

by Graham on Dec 18, 2007 9:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you mean Pitchers' Park...
He's good, sure, but I'm curious how much of an adjustment he'll need to MLB.  AAA pitching <<<<<<<< MLB pitching.
"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Dec 18, 2007 9:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Whoops, I did mean pitchers'
Need more than 5 hours sleep a night, apparently.

And while I agree he needs some adjustment, that's still a ludicrous line for someone his age to be putting up. We really couldn't have asked for more out of him in Tacoma last year.

by Graham on Dec 18, 2007 9:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sssssafe.
He's so good, he even can umpire himself:
"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Dec 18, 2007 10:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He played a lot of games in launchpads
It IS the PCL, after all.

He's a good player, especially for his age.  Does it translate full-time against MLB pitching?  Maybe it will, and in spades.  But there are lot of guys who can OPS .950-1.000 in the PCL and can't do shit in the Majors.  Shit, Nick Green had a monster year last season.

by Gomez on Dec 18, 2007 10:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

so...
we look at numbers when it's convenient and fits our agenda? (see USSM as a whole, and what's being done here now)

but we should also ignore or discredit numbers when it's a contradiction to our agenda?

now that's being a true politician.

"You just got AJ-aculated on! In Baltimore?"

by wwbaker3 on Dec 18, 2007 11:14 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Numbers are important for Major Leaguers
with minor leaguers, you need to know a lot more, because there's a difference between Adam Jones OPS'ing .968 in AAA and Scott Seabol doing the same thing.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 11:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We should always look at everything, obviously
But there are times where the tool that should carry the most weight is the stats, and time when that's not the case.

by Graham on Dec 18, 2007 11:23 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Or look at them
Jones hit .325/.381/.601 in Tacoma compared with .304/.382/.571 on the road last year. The road numbers are very, very good, even for the PCL.  The home numbers are insane.

If you want to throw out random references to thinks like park factors, might want to actually understand how they effected the player in question.

For it is the greatest truth of our age: information is not knowledge. -Caleb Carr

by helfgott on Dec 18, 2007 11:00 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay
You, Jeff and half the readers here are thoroughly convinced that Adam Jones is a star and an absolute lock to be the next great Mariner, neverminding the definition of the term prospect or any actual performances at MLB level.

Look, I like Adam Jones, and I understand he's arguably the team's top prospect right now.  In fact, if you'd go back I make it clear I wouldn't deal him for Bedard.

But... and Matthew and others briefly brought this up after the game on Sunday... Mariner fans on this and other Mariner blogs have a complex about vastly overrating their own prospects, the ceilings, their abilities and so on.  Jeff kind of scratched the surface on that argument in his original entry but proceeded to maintain the status quo.

We won't know Adam Jones is a star until he gets the requisite ABs, sure.  But as far as you and others are concerned, he already is, without needing to provide the requisite visual proof at the MLB level.  And that's the problem we're having.  We did the same thing with Doyle.  And Ryan Anderson.  And Shin-Soo Choo.  And Asdrubal Cabrera.  And plenty of others.

I am not about to waste a holiday compiling a comprehensive list of prospects and how they ended up to prove to you that many of the best prospects are question marks... not that you or anyone else bothered to do the same to prove your respective points.

So all I can do, in the unlikely event that Bavasi deals Jones for Bedard or anyone else, that a) most of you don't kill yourselves and b) that the bitter histrionics die down after a couple of days.

by Gomez on Dec 18, 2007 1:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bad day at work?
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 18, 2007 1:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wait, what?
Since when did we think Shin-Soo Choo was a star?

Or Cabrera?

We overvalue our prospects, most of us have noticed this and compensate for it. We're overdoing it on Jones.

by Graham on Dec 18, 2007 1:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What?
We did the same thing with Doyle.  And Ryan Anderson.  And Shin-Soo Choo.  And Asdrubal Cabrera.  And plenty of others.

-Nobody ever trusted Snelling's ability to stay healthy. Nobody.

-Ryan Anderson was great until he got a pitching injury.

-Shin-soo Choo was never a very good prospect and the people who called him such were dumb.

-You may not have noticed, but Adrubal Cabrera is good, and he wasn't even considered that much of a player by most of us (except marc) when he was with the Mariners.

Jones is very, very good, and there's no comparison between him and Anderson, considering AJ isn't about to injure his elbow or shoulder while pitching like a crazy idiot. The odds of him stagnating right now are about the same as those of any "established" Major Leaguer suddenly falling off the cliff.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 1:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A few problems
  1. Who the hell said Jones is a guaranteed star?  He's a GREAT bet to be league average with a plus glove.  On top of that, out of the thousands of guys whose established major league performances aren't yet known, Jones is a better bet than all but about 10 of them to be a star.
  2. If you compiled such a list you'd see exactly what I said.  When you look at any reputable list of the top 10-15 or so hitting prospects in baseball, the vast majority of them end up being very valuable.  You can (and seem to) believe that's not true on a hunch, but you would be (and are) wrong.
For it is the greatest truth of our age: information is not knowledge. -Caleb Carr

by helfgott on Dec 19, 2007 1:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And...
I (and most of the blogosphere) was ecstatic when we got a productive major leaguer for Choo and bummed when we traded Cabrera for 90 at-bats, even when I thought they were going to be productive ones.  The only blogger who projected Choo as a potential star was the guy who thinks Jason Veritek is a reasonable estimate of Rob Johnson's ceiling.
For it is the greatest truth of our age: information is not knowledge. -Caleb Carr

by helfgott on Dec 19, 2007 1:14 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What Jeff said
And Jones doesn't have to put up an .850+ OPS to meet the "discernibly above replacement level" criteria.

Also, dismissing probable outcomes based on previous history as "only educated guesses" is a cheap way out.  Yes, technically it's correct, so we could banter back and forth all day about what we think Jones may or may not do and both claim we are right.  That's just an exercise in futility.  I can't prove you "wrong" any more than you can prove me wrong.    

But certain predictions ARE more correct than others, if they are based on something that is demonstrably true.  That's the case here.  I'm sure you can find many comparable prospects to Jones who flamed out miserably, if that's your goal.  Feel free to do so, if you like.  But the fact remains a big enough percentage of prospects of Jones' pedigree and skillset have been successful that I'm comfortable saying that Jones will probably also be sucessful.

by patsfan on Dec 17, 2007 10:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok
You're wrong because the vast majority of elite hitting talents in the upper minors become at least league average players and a substantial number of them become superstars.

You aren't saying "not all," at least you weren't until this point.  You said MOST top prospects don't pan out. That's simply not true.

Adam Jones is an elite hitting talent in the upper minors.  Given both his combination of athleticism/projection and present performance and the history of similar players this close to the majors, the chances that he succeeds and becomes an incredibly valuable player are far greater than the chances that he busts.

De-valuing Jones because he's "unproven" is the kind of thing shitty GMs do on the way to ruining their franchises.

For it is the greatest truth of our age: information is not knowledge. -Caleb Carr

by helfgott on Dec 18, 2007 10:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If all Jones becomes is league average
then you should have traded him for Bedard.  Jones needs to get pretty close to his potential to make a trade not worth it.  There are plenty of league average OF on the market to scoop up.  The real question is what is the chance that Jones becomes a +10 to +20 runs player for an extended period.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 18, 2007 11:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A league average hitter + his glove
makes him a +10 to +20 run player. And for next to nothing.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 11:09 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ha...
and Jeff and I make essentially the same comment 2 minutes apart (didn't see it).
For it is the greatest truth of our age: information is not knowledge. -Caleb Carr

by helfgott on Dec 18, 2007 11:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah so I'm saying
he's got to hit .275/.340/.450 on average to be worth it.  It seems like he should be able to do that but there are enough "what ifs" that make it so he might not be able to do that.  I think he should be able to but I'm just saying that he's got to do pretty well.  Its not a question of if he's a bust or not.  Its a question of whether he's great or average.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 18, 2007 11:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's a pretty high league-average
for a corner, adjusted for Safeco, an average player would hit ~.260/.330/.430. If Jones even comes anywhere close to that, he's a plus player.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 18, 2007 11:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Damn you Safeco. Got me again
Yeah he should probably be able to hit those marks.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 18, 2007 11:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No there aren't
There aren't a lot of league average offensive plus defensive outfielders out there to be had for the major league minimum under club control for 6 years.  That on its own makes Jones a near-push with Bedard.  

Of the thousands of guys with professional contracts who haven't played a full major league season, Jones has a better chance than all but about 10 of them to be a perennial all-star talent.  Good teams don't give these guys away for rentals when they're right on the verge of breaking through.

For it is the greatest truth of our age: information is not knowledge. -Caleb Carr

by helfgott on Dec 18, 2007 11:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Two Words
Jason. Varitek.
I'm more like I am now than I've ever been.

by ralphie81 on Dec 17, 2007 12:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Once again,
the point is not all blue-chip prospects pan out - it's hard to even say that a majority of them pan out.

Anyways, we have to remember the purpose of "prospects" - you either get them ready to play in the ML for your ballclub, or you trade them for established stars.  You have to pick a direction to go, because you simply cannot be wishy-washy about this subject.

"You just got AJ-aculated on! In Baltimore?"

by wwbaker3 on Dec 16, 2007 9:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

well...
I guess it depends on  your idea of what it means to "pan out."  While it's not an exhaustive study, if you look at BA's top 20 from 2000-2003 there isn't a single year where you can call over half the top 20 guys busts.  When you look at the guys who did bust, the overwhelming majority are pitchers.

The hitters we can call unqualified busts from those lists: Jason Stokes, Sean Burroughs, Angel Berroa, Drew Henson, Alex Escobar, Antonio Perez, Dee Brown, Chin-Feng Chen, and Joe Borchard.

Perez and Berroa aged a year and a half and two years respectively as a result of age-gate.

Four years of top 20 prospects yields seven true busts and two guys who wouldn't have been on the list with the knowledge available today on the offensive side.  Every other hitting prospect on the list (27 out of the 34 unique players in the top 20 those 4 years) ranges from at least a serviceable major leaguer to perennial all-star.  Patterson, your example of a bust, turned in above average performances in 2003, 2004, and 2006 when you factor in defense/positional value.  

Top tier offensive prospects fail far less often than you think they do.

I don't think anyone would mind giving up a combination of Balentien/Clement/Sherrill/Tillman/Halman/Morrow/Butler/Ramirez/Saunders/Tui  .  We could probably even stomach the idea of losing Triunfel's sky-high ceiling.  The thing this community is worried about is that acquiring Bedard means losing the first elite MLB-ready offensive talent the team has had in a decade.  That's not a case of overrating prospects.

For it is the greatest truth of our age: information is not knowledge. -Caleb Carr

by helfgott on Dec 16, 2007 11:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Corey Patterson is not
a good comp for AJ. As he was promoted through the minors, his numbers kept becoming worse and worse, culminating in a 695 OPS in 396 PAs at AAA at age 21.

At age 21, AJ had a 968 OPS in 469 PAs at AAA.

273 points of OPS, is in a 150 game season about a 55 runs difference.

The gap between the 2 of them is HUGE.

visiting A's fan.

by rfloh on Dec 17, 2007 12:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, we probably undervalue them
As do almost all Major League teams as well as fans, writers, analysts, you name it. People are constantly underrating the immense benefit and value that pre-free agent players hold to a team. For every Lopez, Betancourt, Sherrill, Putz, Hernandez, Jones, Green, the team saves itself a few million dollars a year over what a player like that would cost them on the open market. That's a few million dollars for each player. The smart teams realize that the most effective way to build a winning team is to have a core group of talented young players that are costing, in baseball terms, next-to-nothing, and using those savings to sign expensive free agent talent to fill the holes.

Even an average pre-free agent player can be worth $10-15 MM over his first six years. A player that becomes top-tier, like many think Jones has a good chance of being, could be worth as much as $50 MM or more to a team. You did see the contract Torii Hunter just signed, didn't you? For reference, Jones will be getting $380,000 next year, and over the next six years, if he becomes All-Star level, will be paid roughtly $20-30 MM, but will have been worth somewhere around 60-100. Or a savings of about 30-70 million for whatever team has him. If he only becomes a somewhat better-than-average player, he probably still gets $15-20 MM, and the team would still see significant savings of 20-30 million. Bedard himself is still pre-free agent, so he also is a relative bargain, but not so much now that he's in his last two years of arbitration. He'll be paid (as a guess) about $25 MM for his next two seasons, a savings of about $15 MM, roughly. So even Jones straight up for Bedard wouldn't be a good deal for the M's, let alone adding more good young players into the trade.

The best course of action is to zealously gaurd that good young talent so you can build that core group that can serve as a foundation for a winning club. Then you use the savings to fill in around them with expensive free agents that you can acquire without giving up talent in return.

by nathaniel dawson on Dec 17, 2007 1:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lopez isn't worth too much right now
and Yuni says hi to the contract his idol Adam Everett just got.  The thing is that the pool of elite talent is only so big.  That's why you trade for a guy like Bedard.  Besides Felix, we don't really have much in our system that profiles to fill that need in SP.  In addition, its been really tough to get SP in FA lately.  The only way people have been able to add decent SP has been with trades because by the time a SP makes it to FA, alot of the time their best years are behind them.  Jones is worth a lot but supply/demand is motivating these trade discussions because its a lot easier to find FA OF than FA SP.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 17, 2007 1:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Additionally,
Due to supply and demand and what was discussed earlier (the fact that pitching prospects often bust at a much higher rate than hitting prospects), a good SP is going to be worth a lot more than a good hitter - simply because it's easier to find good hitters in your system or someone else's system, which is simply not the case when it comes to SP.
"You just got AJ-aculated on! In Baltimore?"

by wwbaker3 on Dec 17, 2007 5:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is absolutely true
I just don't think that elite SP would mean as much to the 08/09 Mariners as it would if they were, I dunno, five games better than they are.

It's the right kind of idea but the wrong kind of team.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 10:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, Jones is the big issue here
dealing for Bedard is a win now sort of move, which I think is fine, the AL West is a two team race and we're not starting from a bad position. Problem is, Jones is part of a win now philosophy because having patrolling a COF spot everyday is essential to making us a better team.

Also, this move cannot be made by itself. It would have to be done, as Jeff eludes to, as part of a plan to make several important steps to improve the 2008 team. The good news is that they are doable steps. Bad news is they won't be done.

by Matthew on Dec 17, 2007 11:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

umm, it goes both ways
look at Houston, They traded Taveras, Bucholz, and Hirsch for a "established' consistent pitcher in Jason Jennings. He turned out to be one of the worst pitchers in their franchise history, Boston trading for Eric Gagne. Gagne was horrible for the Sox. awhile ago, twins traded a.j. pierzynski for boof bonser, joe nathan, and liriano, all relative prospects at the time. The fact of the matter is, I'd rather take our chances with prospects we drafted and groomed, then trading for an 'ace' or a 'stud' that has the same likelihood of failure. Because, we all know baseball is a game of it.
Shenanigans

by Brohan on Dec 17, 2007 11:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't know about that Pierzynski trade.
That's sick.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 11:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

oh yea
that's prolly one of the best trades i've seen. with trades like that, and the signing of zito, makes one wonder why the giants can't win ;)
Shenanigans

by Brohan on Dec 17, 2007 1:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We lost out on Kuroda?
We'll probably get Esteban Loaiza, whose job Kuroda took

by I'm NOT Corco on Dec 16, 2007 9:25 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

The long term damage
would be mitigated by the extra two draft picks when / if Bedard leaves right?
I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not make jokes in my sig. I will not...

by TIF on Dec 16, 2007 9:37 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

If we strike gold twice
which is incredibly unlikely.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 16, 2007 9:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Makes perfect baseball sense, but ...
I don't believe the Mariners as an organization can accept passing off 2008 and possibly 2009 as continuing building years.  I suspect they are unalterably committed to making significant changes in the rotation, and those changes need to be something that the vast majority of fans will see as a significant upgrade.

If Jones is traded the average fan doesn't see that as any loss - since Jones isn't on the big league roster his lost production isn't apparent.

*

I think this all sets up for the Mariners to "pay what is needed" to bring a front line pitcher.

by Steve Nelson on Dec 16, 2007 9:43 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Orioles insider says he got a text
That a deal will get done "soon" and the current offer is Jones + Clement + minor prospect or two

by Fett42 on Dec 16, 2007 9:46 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

So they want Clement now?
instead of Morrow? wow, what a strange turn of events...I was sure that they already had some blue-chip catchers in the minors.

I prefer keeping Clement...simply because he's build for Safeco.

"You just got AJ-aculated on! In Baltimore?"

by wwbaker3 on Dec 16, 2007 9:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Booooo...
I'm praying for Omar Minaya to do step up.  Or Krivsky...

by tait644 on Dec 16, 2007 10:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think Bedard's going anywhere
And even if he is, I don't think the M's will, or should, answer the Orioles' likely asking price, which will probably start at Adam Jones and Morrow, plus other quality young talent, and it would likely be for Bedard and only Bedard.

I'd say let's do it, MAYBE, if the tag only involved one of Jones or Morrow, and maybe a couple of other top prospects (Clement or WLAD or one of the low-minors pitching talents like Butler or Tillman) or even AAAA spare parts like Feierabend or Morse), a huge but do-able sacrifice... but I'm thinking the Orioles will want both, and at least 2-3 of the aforementioned others.

by Gomez on Dec 16, 2007 9:49 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

And then Fett's post. LOL.
I'll believe it when I see it, but if that's the proposed deal, it's not a bad one.

by Gomez on Dec 16, 2007 9:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Have a change of heart, Jeff?
Im just glad im not getting crucified for being so outspoken against trading for Bedard with the ridiculous offer the Orioles want.

Way I see it, if you're going to throw out that many quality prospects, why not go for Santana. Oswalt. Kazmir.

If Tampa Bay really was talking to us about Jackson for Broussard, its pretty clear we wouldnt have to give up that much. Id rather take a risk at him if he is available at cheap.

Never once did I say Bedard sucks, im just unsure if he is worth it.

by Slica on Dec 16, 2007 10:15 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Jeff is Right ON
His argument exactly mirrors my beliefs about Bedard.

We simply won't be as good as the Angels if we get Bedard.  Or Bedard and Colon.  And I'm not ready to give up Jones/Morrow or Jones/Clement for two years of Bedard and a couple of second-place finishes in the West.  

Trade Sexson, Lopez, and Ibanez and move on.

Lord, I hate being a Mariners fan.

by tait644 on Dec 16, 2007 10:23 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I'm not as down on this team as everyone else
but maybe I'm just stupid.
When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade.

by Mariner John on Dec 16, 2007 10:37 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Is Clement ready to hit in the majors?
If he is, we might as well use Vidro off the bench and let Clement DH. Then Clement can relieve Kenji every so often to refine his catching skills.
  • Play AJ
  • Sign Colon to 1-year deal
  • Put Morrow in the starting rotation
  • Sign Prior and pitch him out of the bullpen after he is healthy
Watch this team compete to its potential and enjoy the surplus of cash next offseason to sign/trade for an elite starter, first baseman, and left fielder.

by Wilder83 on Dec 16, 2007 11:03 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I think we're overrating
Jones' defense at this point in his career.  I believe he has the potential to be a very good defender, but his showing last year during his callup showed he's still got a ways to go to be above average, so in regards to losing him, I don't think the drop off in defense will be as significant as you might think in RF if it goes to Wlad over Jones.  I don't think Wlad is by any means a gold glove calibur, but I think he's probably about league average, and Jones would be average to a little above that at this point in time.  

Right now from what I saw Jones still takes some bad routes and misjudges balls... he'll get better then that, but I don't think it will be right away like next year, I think it'll be 09 or later before he's considered an above average defender.

by MfaninAlaska on Dec 16, 2007 11:36 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I dunno
like Matthew said a few days ago, using an admittedly small sample Jones caught 31 of 34 balls in his zone last year, with eight more caught out-of-zone. These are pretty good rates (and way better than anything we got out of the regular corners). He obviously had - what was it, two? three? - lousy drops, but drops are flukes, and range is real.

Any weird routes that you saw Jones take probably happened because he played center all year in Tacoma, and had to adjust on the fly to a corner in an unfamiliar ballpark. With a little more winter experience under his belt, I think he should be okay. It might take him a little while yet, but I figure by May or so he should be comfortable.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 16, 2007 11:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think one thing to keep in mind
is that sure Jones takes some bad routes just like Morse and Brossard did but he's way more athletic so he can make up for most his mistakes.  I'd expect with a little experience he'll develop into a top defender.  Ichiro, you gonna move to corner OF sometime?

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 17, 2007 12:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Couple comments
On the first read through I actually got pretty excited thinking about Bedard coming to Seattle even though i've already thought about it a bunch and I'm pretty sure I don't want to see it if i think we'll send the prospects we will.  You have to admit, getting an ace like that would be one of the bigger trades we've ever seen.

Another question is if there is anybody we are bidding against for Bedard?  Dodgers don't need him anymore.  Angels don't really need him.  Boston will be stacked if they get Santana and don't really need him but might go for him if Santana doesn't pan out.  Yankees might go for him if they don't get Santana.  I don't know as much about the NL teams but one of the big ones, the diamondbacks are out of the running now.  If we are the only really serious ones then it should bring down the cost some right?  Hopefully we are smart enough to not offer too much with the ball in our court.  What am I saying, he's a starting pitcher so there is no way we'll value him correctly.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 17, 2007 12:47 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

AL East...
Whether Boston or NY loses the Santana sweepstakes, neither team will likely be included in the Bedard sweepstakes.  I'd be seriously surprised if the O's traded that major of a player within their division...
"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Dec 17, 2007 9:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Erik Bedard
I don't mean to hate on Erik Bedard -- who's motherfucking damn near the same age as Johan Santana that it spun my drunk mind into a frenzy -- however, this past season was somewhat of an aberration for him. In all likelihood, Bedard will regress back to his established mean during this upcoming season. Anyhow, I'm too goddamn shitfaced to cite ERA+, xFIP, K/9, and GB% -- even though I did look up those numbers to solidify my point -- yet, that notwithstanding, I'd argue that Bedard isn't worth just Adam Jones—but also an unproven position prospect in Carlos Triunfel. Instead, the Seattle Mariners should offer a package Richie Sexson, Adrian Beltre, and Raul Ibanez -- along with a couple of overrated pitching prospects (i.e., Chris Tillman and Tony Butler) -- to an idiotic fucker such as Ned Colletti, with the objective of garnering a return of James Loney, Andy LaRoche, and Matt Kemp. I, without question, bet that a moron such as Colletti would bite at that deal. Okay, I'm done theorizing for tonight. Right now, I'd much rather look back at the mistakes I've made in 23 short years and bitch about the pitifulness of my life.

by AK1984 on Dec 17, 2007 1:26 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

niceeeeeeeeeee
Copenhagen = WAYYYYY better than Paris

by MarinerintheDistrict on Dec 17, 2007 4:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bedard
I'll check out the rest of the thread later after I get off work.

Here's my gut feelings on Bedard.

If we get him, I'll be quite excited.  Excited, because we actually landed a top-of-the-line pitcher.  Excited that we actually have a one-two punch.  Excited because our rotation will suddenly look decent.

It's going to be a while before the concequences sink in.  I will have to see instances where we pay dearly for giving up that one prospect that could've helped us win that certain game.

I'd like to have Bedard, but I also want this team to improve without blowing the farm.  Decisions, decisions.

by ThundaPC on Dec 17, 2007 3:02 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Keeping Jones won't allow us to match up
with other teams in the postseason. Pitching wins in the postseason. We will never compete with top tier teams without (at least) 2 front line starters.
Any package of Jones/Morrow, Jones/Clement, or Jones/Sherrill/Tui, should start the deal. Saunders, Butler, Reed, plus other IF'ers should be enough to sprinkle on top.

That's it. Two blue chippers, or 1 blue, 1 MLB RP, and B-IF'r. plus A-AA throwin.

If Jones is gone, we will live. We have a CF for now, Wlad or Jimerson (carl crawford-lite) can play LF better than Raul.  Hitting MLB pitching would be the real question.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 8:04 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

the point is
we won't get to the post season with or without Bedard, so why waste our best prospects in a decade on a guy who'll be a free agent in two years?

by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 17, 2007 8:23 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, the problem is
We have to get to the postseason first.

I don't think it's about just keeping Jones.  It's keeping players who can help us in the future.  The risk is punting quite a bit of the future for a two-year rental and in that timeframe we either have to beat the Angels, who would still have a better overall rotation than ours, or challenge for the Wild Card, which is becoming SERIOUSLY overcrowded.

by ThundaPC on Dec 17, 2007 10:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We're playing the October matchup game already?
And pitching doesn't win in the postseason. Outscoring your opponent does.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 10:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

HERETIC!!!!
Hasn't Tim McCarver taught you anything?

But yeah, it's a bit early to start setting up the postseason rotation for a team that probably won't even MAKE the postseason.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 10:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

but how do you know
we won't make the post season?  We could, you never now what could happen.  Surprises happen every year, I hate how everybody just assumes the M's will stink next year.  The Angels weren't that good last year and the M's weren't that bad. We could also re-sign Bedard before he goes free agent.  

by drm1125 on Dec 17, 2007 9:18 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

We could also win the WS without Bedard
If you're going to give us a magically lucky season, why not go all the way?

Willie Bloomquist walk off grand slam to win it all!

by Graham on Dec 17, 2007 9:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nobody's talking a lucky charms season
either way. Keeping the farm and later having a good offense (average AND power) doesn't win you a WS or postseason. Getting Bedard today and improving our rotation doesn't win us enough games throught the year to GET to the playoffs, although, we would be built much more like a playoff team. KEEPING Bedard here for at least 4 years would be the ticket. That would give us enough time to fill the offensive voids created by losing AJ,Ibanez, Richie over the next few years.

Add an extension window before the trade, attempt to extend him for 2-3 MORE years at 16-22 per.
If he won't do it, shit can the trade and hope Morrow and Horam can carry us to a WS. Our rotation sucks balls without bedard, but looks awesome with him in it.

I am just tired of looking at a weekend series and seeing: Felix v. Lackey, Wash v. Escobar, Batista v. Garland OR Felix v. Beckett, Wash v Schilling, Batista v. Matz

We simply do not match up past our first pitcher and if he has a rough outing, then the whole series is eff'd.

Outfield and pitching are our glaring holes. Which is easier to fill? Which is more difficult? Are we a penny-pinching 65mill payroll or are we a 105 mil payroll? Do we have replacements for our holes in OF and rotation?

So if Jones stays, no bedard.
we have Morrow, Baek, Fiereerererbend, Dickey, Lehr, Silva, Loshe, Colon, Prior to fill our 2 spots AND WASH is your number 2 TOR starter.

Jones/Morrow go, Bedard becomes lead anchor.
we have Wlad, Reed, Jimerson, Jenkins, Wilkerson, Shawn Green, Luis Gonzo, Lofton, Shannon Stewart,or rondell white to fill the outfield holes.  not pretty, but your rotation matches up, aahhhh crap, we'd be Tampa Bay.

No one in the M's blogosphere seems to be excited about acquiring high dollar FA pitchers (no good one have really been available for a few years), so when do we upgrade our rotation? After all the fielders are set, after Felix is tired of pitching alongside of suckiness and is ready to be traded. We need to show him that pitching is important to our org, sending him out there 'alone' is not the message I want to send to the face of the franchise.

Maybe we need to decide who IS the face of the franchise (besides Ichiro). Is it Jones, or is it Felix? You really can't have both. If you choose Jones, you push Felix out of town by not committing to a frontline rotation. If you choose Felix, well, Jones is gone and the M's get a mention on ESPN. I can't really decide, both scenarios have upside, just different levels of known upside.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 10:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

why do you say shit like this?
Going to cambridge doesn't make you an authority. Either make an argument or let it go, don't just insult people.

by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 17, 2007 10:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Zing.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 10:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Cue Benny Hill music
and lots of confused running around.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 10:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Everybody would be excited
but that doesn't mean they wouldn't also be disappointed.

And Bedard said he's testing free agency no matter what. Good luck getting him to sign that extension.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 10:37 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

oh goody, lets give up the idea of winning
for another 3 years. I can handle that. So after Jones and Morrow are established MLB contributors (1-3 years), THEN can we add a frontline pitcher.

Clearly, when Ibanez, Richie, and Vidro are gone, replaced by Wlad, FA X and Y (Clement could be Y) then we will be in a better position to add to our rotation.
3 more years of Felix ALONE, Extend wash, extend batista, then 7 yrs/199 mill for Bedard/Santana/Kazmir, ahhh I see it's so clear now.

Its fair to say I know shit, but an opinion of 'lets hold off till 20??' for a 100 mil team doesn't sound/look to good.

Either way, however you want to see it, Bavasi will pull the trigger on the deal now matter how valuable the kids are to you, if the Orioles are interested because MLB talent will always be WORTH more. Plus Bavasi doesn't give a shit about the M's 3 years from now, he wants a job in 09 which means win in '08.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 11:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough.
But you can't seriously think bill will make a 'combination' of trades, do you? He has never shown to do anything creative. He either, signs FA to above-average salary or he makes trades. Nothing about his moves are connected or appear as anything more than a shallow this for that swap.
I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 11:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Are you new to this blog?
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 12:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not going to endorse one plan of action
because our GM is too retarded to go another way.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 12:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's not quite true
To play devil's advocate and defend Bavasi for a second, I'll point out that he appeared to have a plan last offseason to get two starting pitchers (Ramirez and Batista) who are known to create a lot of groundballs, believing that Beltre, Yuni and Lopez were strong enough defensively to make the plays. He saw a strength (infield defense), and acquired pitchers who fit in with that.

It obviously didn't work very well, because Ramirez's groundball tendencies couldn't overcome the fact that he's terrible, and Yuni seemed to take a step backward defensively. Bavasi also gave up a lot (in players and money) to get those pitchers. It might not have been the smartest plan, but it was a plan.

by Teej on Dec 17, 2007 6:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, I think you're right....
he probably wouldn't, at least with the M's, but it does change the dynamics of the trade a lot if they were able to hammer out an extension as a pre-condition of a trade. That changes things enough that it would be worth looking at a little harder.

I still don't think I would do it for even just Jones straight up, but it's worth thinking about.

by nathaniel dawson on Dec 17, 2007 4:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely
if Bedard came with an extension, I'd have to re-consider my whole platform.

But he doesn't. So...

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 4:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Miracles don't happen twice.
Mariners should have sucked last year. They will probably suck this year.

Also, the Angels were very good last year.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 9:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Angels were good last year
but are the likely to repeat that?

Garrett Anderson had a year surpassing his previous 3 years by a wide margin... at age 35

Chone Figgins at age 29 surpassed his career numbers by a wide margin (.293/.354/.400) with a line of .330/.393/.432

John Lackey well surpassed his career averages and had the best year of his career

Kelvim Escobar also had his best season as a starter

I think the Angels are a solid club, but they also were the beneficiaries of some young players having their best seasons as well like Kotchman... are these repeatable or was it just one of those seasons like the M's of 2001?  

Again I think they're a solid club, but I don't think they're nearly head and shoulders above the M's.

by MfaninAlaska on Dec 17, 2007 9:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

very true
they were also plagued by pretty severe injuries and brought up a lot of young players, some of whom experienced major growing pains. Chone isn't ichiro, and will not repeat last years' season, and they're taking a big hit at short. However, they ought to get great production out of second, will be able to DH Vlad more often, and see a more experienced and more effective Kotchman at first. Their catchers were both very green last year and may improve.

In short, there is every reason to expect similar performances from their starting five, and at least an equal performance from their position players. They set the bar for this division, and they set it quite high.

by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 17, 2007 9:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think we can outscore them next year
but their trio of Lackey/Escobar/Weaver + KRod is pretty amazing.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 17, 2007 10:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes.
Also, the Mariners outperformed their expectations far more than the Angels did. Think Vidro is going to hit like that again next year?
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 10:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You mean with a hefty, yet empty average?
Well, then yes. I think Vidro will have basically the same year in '08. Maybe a touch less, but still a .300 hitter.
I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 10:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He'll be worse.
As will Ibanez, probably Johjima. While Sexson may be better it won't be enough to be significant. Beltre, as good as he is, may do worse. Jones may not be great right away. And Ichiro will probably do slightly worse. They're miles ahead of us right now. The only people who may improve on last year would be Lopez and Sexson ("improve" being relative), while Angels have several players who can do as well or better than ours can.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 10:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

They definitely had some overachievers
but even if you think they're only six or seven games better than the M's, instead of ten, Bedard still doesn't make that up, so you'd be going from long shot to slightly less long shot.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 10:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

For Kotchman,
career numbers in MLB are not a good guide.

Year by year OPS+ from 2004 aged 21: 51, 122, 14, 119. His career numbers are dragged down by the years when he was struggling with weird maladies like mono. He is unlikely to repeat a 14 OPS+.

He has a very good record in the minors, career 325-401-493.

He was finally healthy last year. He will only be 25 in 2008. There is a very good change that he will be better in 2008 than he was in 2007.

Kotchman and Kendrick should improve, given their ages and records in the minors.

visiting A's fan.

by rfloh on Dec 17, 2007 10:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We had good fortune in some areas, BUT...
that might not be as unrepeatable as you'd think.  Firstly, I know it's been said already, but not only can Kotchman repeat his season, he's likely to improve on it.  Until he suffered a concussion on a freak play in June, he had an OPS over .900.  Afterwards it took him nearly a two months to find his equilibrium again.

Second, John Lackey and Kelvim Escobar pitched very well, yes.  However, it might interest you to know that there are only two pitchers that have been top 10 in the AL in ERA 3 years in a row: Johan Santana and John Lackey.  Lackey will be 29 this year, so did he have a career year or is he entering his prime?  

Escobar will be 32, and yes he posted a career ERA as a full time starter last year.  Of course, he also posted a career ERA as a starter in 2006, and 2 years before that in 2004 as well.  Escobar is, interestingly enough, a demonstration of what happens when a 2 pitch guy learns a 3rd pitch and finds out he has a really good version.  He's kind of like JJ Putz in that regard.  It's unlikely he'll get much better, but I wouldn't expect a huge fall off either.

Third, Chone Figgins is unlikely to hit .330 again...or is he?  It was said he's not Ichiro Suzuki, and barring last year he certainly hasn't been.  But what is the reason for that? Ichiro's BB/SO ratio is a little better than Figgin's but not very much.  Ichiro is a smarter baserunner, but evidence suggests he's not really much faster than Figgins. So why? Well, 2004-2006, Figgins posted an average GB/FB ratio of 1.06. For comparison's sake, Ichiro averaged a 2.30 G/F ratio.  Of course, this includes the outlier 2004 season, when Ichiro had a G/F ratio over 3, but even in 2005 and 2006, he an average of 1.9.  In 2007, however, Figgins had a G/F ratio of 2.06.  Ichiro had a G/F ratio of 2.32.  I guess what I'm saying is that it shouldn't come as a shock if Figgins posts an average over .300 again.    

Fourth, the Angels gave over 200 plate appearances to Shea Hillenbrand and his 57 OPS+ because Juan Rivera broke his leg in winter ball.  Bartolo Colon likewise ate (heh) 18 starts and almost 100 innings with a 6.34 ERA.  So it's not like their luck was all good.

*Visiting Angels fan* Never give up, never surrender!

by TheOptimist on Dec 17, 2007 6:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Figgins 2007 BABIP: .399
Yeah, that won't happen again.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 7:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ichiro's was .390
His BABIP in 2004 was .401.  Again, I'm not saying he'll hit .330 again, but I think he will get over .300 if he continues to listen to Nathan Haynes and doesn't go back to trying to hit the ball out of the park half his AB's.
*Visiting Angels fan* Never give up, never surrender!

by TheOptimist on Dec 17, 2007 8:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Indeed?
2004-2006, Figgins' GB+LD was 60-64%.  Ichiro's was over 80 in 2004 and around 70-74% in 2005 and 2006.  In 2007, Ichiro's was around 76%. Can anyone guess what Chone Figgins was in 2007? 74%. As indicated by the GB/FB ratios I posted earlier, Figgin's flyballs dropped like a rock last year.  Maybe it's just a fluke.  But I have to wonder about it given that even Figgins claims his turnaround came on the heels of batting advice from Nathan Haynes.
*Visiting Angels fan* Never give up, never surrender!

by TheOptimist on Dec 17, 2007 9:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Figgins had an unsustainably high LD%
I'd say at best we're looking at a regression to .300-.310, with a good chance of something lower.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 8:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

morrow's projected value
it seems that if jones and morrow are to be the centerpieces of this deal, we have something off a handle on jones's projectibility. Less so on morrow? Where do you all see that guy in two years, five years? If this has been addressed in depth, can someone post a link?

by zachsullivan on Dec 17, 2007 10:46 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

No idea
tough to say how he'll do as a starter when he doesn't have any experience starting.

He's a solid prospect, though. I'd give him...I dunno, 30-40% odds of being a good pitcher by 2009/2010?

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 10:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't read all the responses,
But I agree Jeff. Bedard is amazing, but I'm willing to gut out a couple more non-playoff years if it means becoming a legitimate contender. And getting Bedard does not make us a legitimate contender.

Side note-you said HoRam is probably gone. Really? I thought we offered him. Are you expecting him to sign with someone else?

by BaltimoreMarinersFan on Dec 17, 2007 10:47 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I think we're expected to give him a shot
before dropping him.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 10:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think we end up with two starters
and he's shown the door. Right now he's just insurance.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 10:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So who's going to command our rotation
in 2010, when we're ready to compete again? Felix....then....Morrow....yeah he'll be ready to dominate as a number 2 by then....then who?
I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 11:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

One of the 200 other pitchers we've never heard of
yet. That's 3 years away.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 11:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Also
I'm not sure how this was a response to what Jeff said.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 11:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Its not really.
But if the plan is to just keep going after reclamation projects, yay. I will be excited watching AJ run his ass off.
I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 11:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I am a M's fan either way
Its amazing how polarized people become. Even discussing viable solutions is pointless when Bavasi is leading; he simply won't make the best/smartest decision or combination of moves to help the team. No, he'll address 1 thing each offseason and go with that.
I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 12:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

yep like in 2004
when he addressed 1B and 3B

or 2005 when he addressed C and SP and DH

or 2006 when he addressed SP and DH and RF

Bill Bavasi fails many times on actually getting the right players, but he always tried, he has the right ideas, and he knows where the problems are on the big league roster.

by Matthew on Dec 17, 2007 12:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The Mariner LF
is like the Alaskan Way Viaduct.  It's been a disaster since before most of us can remember, everybody identified long ago that a fix was needed, and yet nobody can successfully deliver that fix.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 1:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Getting Jose Cruz Jr.
to fix the viaduct is just asking for another Utah Mining disaster. Unless he gets Raul to help, then it's milk and cookies for all of us.

by Faux on Dec 18, 2007 7:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly! We just keep waiting
for a SP. It could be those guys, well not Feir or Ramirez, but who knows.

Just so I get my fan-dome intact: We're waiting.
Until a pitcher blooms from within OR until we pay 7/199 OR until pitcher from NW wants to pitch for us really bad. Gotcha!! GO OFFENSE!!!

Oh wait, we have Bavasi. So he'll speed the waiting up for us. Thank goodness he knows how to evaluate talent and is capable of acquiring it.

Tried and failed, yep that's our guy. I guess its enough that he tried.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 12:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

my point is
you guys are the experts. I just love the m's. (unless they get Blanton). If you think waiting is the smart way to go, then I will play good soldier and follow along. I am just sick of our 'lite at the top and downright shit at the back' rotation.

If signing 4 reclamation projects each offseason is what we want to do, then I won't be surprised when Felix wants to test free agency.

I am a fan. I apologize for not contributing the stat-heavy, overly well thought out material. I read this site for fun, insightful mariner discussions, not to force my crappy ideas on the rest of the world.

I want the best M's team 105 mill will buy. Whatever that is.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 12:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's not so much about waiting
as it is about trying to implement a system under which we can compete now and down the road.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 1:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Felix won't be eligible for free agency
until the 2012 season, if my math is correct. I get your point, but I wouldn't worry too much about Felix bolting. We have a few years to put together a winner until that's even a possibility.

Man, just briefly thinking about Felix leaving makes me a sad panda. My bobbleheads will be covered in tears.

by Teej on Dec 17, 2007 6:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oops
just realized this is talked about in the post below.

by Teej on Dec 17, 2007 6:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Say we pass on Bedard
Keep the offensive guys in the minors to play.. and basically hope for the best with reclamation projects like Clement, Prior, or something along those lines.

How many years do we have left of having Felix under club control? 3 years max?

That means by the time 2010 comes around Felix will be in his free agent year, and you know he's going to be extremely highly coveted if he continues to improve.  So we're going to be in a cycle of seeing the young guys get adjusted to perform (Jones, Clement, Morrow, Wlad and the likes) and see our one true ace on the verge of being on the free agent market.  (Note: I don't see any pitcher in our minor league system that projects to above average talent on the mound in the next few years except maybe Morrow and he's a huge question mark as a starter).

Anyway you look at it, this team the way its constructed and with the available parts in its minor league system is always going to be looking for something it doesn't have.

by MfaninAlaska on Dec 17, 2007 12:00 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Felix isn't an FA for four years
and I wouldn't put it past Bavasi to sign him to a contract that grabs at least one of his FA years, either.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 12:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought his 89 inning season
counted for a full season... I have no idea how that crap works anyways.  I just think either we this team is screwed... it doesn't have enough quality pitching prospects in the minors that is close to being ready to fill out a rotation in the next few years... top Free agents don't seem too interested in wanting to come here (spurned by Schmidt and Zito last year, Kuroda already this year)...

by MfaninAlaska on Dec 17, 2007 12:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Felix has 2 years and 60 days of service time
under his belt, which for all intents and purposes is only two years on his six-year clock. So, assuming he pitches regularly through 2010, even after that year, he wouldn't have a full six years, so he'd still be in his arbitration window.

At least that's how I understand it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

by Teej on Dec 17, 2007 6:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It OKAY
cos we can win with 1tor + 4 scrubs as long as our offense can score 8-10 runs per game. We'll be fine. Eyes on the prize, 2017!!!!!!!
I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 12:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Part of the thing is...
....is that trading Jones is not trading just the future. It's trading the present, as well.

He's pencilled in as a corner outfielder, absolutely no doubts about it. And there are some skills that he has that overwhelmingly counteracts any problems he'd have as a relative newcomer (problems he'd have no matter when he came up)---range is something tangible he brings to the table, and it's something the team needs and can count on.

Thinking seems to be biased toward his offensive output, but it's his defense that's going to be valuable as well.

by rtang on Dec 17, 2007 12:32 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

And yet
we devalue him (to us and other teams) buy sticking him in RF. We need a LF'r more than a RF'r because LF is where our 2nd rangey-ist player needs to be.
For Jones ultimate value, he needs to play CF, but then Ichiro will be 'devalued' in RF.

Ibanez in LF is our big problem, he is the domino that sets other moves into action.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 12:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

BTW
The O's are talking about AJ as a SS NOT as a out fielder!
Go M's

by OBF on Dec 17, 2007 1:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Link?
Because I'm finding that hard to beleive.
I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 1:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

[citation needed]
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 1:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

seriously, link
its hard to believe any team could be that stupid. well... this is the orioles after all

by seattlebruin on Dec 17, 2007 2:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think we can chalk that one up to
stupid internet rumor. I'm sure someone on an O's blog looked at AJ's minor league stats and saw SS, then started blabbing on about how he could replace Tejada.

Other than Craig Biggio, people almost never move back to the IF once they have been out in the grass.

Not to mention that he was not a great SS anyway, and has the potential to be an extremely good OF.

I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 4:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What the hell...
As long as they're on that tack, they might as well be talking about moving Jones back to the mound to replace Bedard.  :-)

by Tom2000 on Dec 18, 2007 1:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why do we assume
Bedard won't resign with us??

Seriously, if Bavasi laid out a 100 mil offer (6 years) after we trade for him, would he really turn that down, with TWO possible injury years before getting to FA.  Would YOU?

I should hope you wouldn't.  The first 100 mil is WAY more important than the last 10-20.

Plus it would be a huge raise over what he is making now (3.4 mil)

Go M's

by OBF on Dec 17, 2007 1:04 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

You could just wait until he's an FA
and sign him then if you want him that bad. Chances are he's not re-signing with anyone before then.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 1:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That has been his stance so far.
He's said all along that he wants to test free agency.
I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 1:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I am not sure debating it is even an issue.
Bill IS going to make the trade. Jones/Morrow are Orioles. The O's GM is his best friend, so we will only get ass-raped 'a little'.
Bavasi is the 'make a splash' GM, not the 'make a calculated decision' GM.
Our rotation 07 reminds me of our 3rb base debacle in 02-04, when it gets so bad that rich-season ticket holders know our 3rd baseman sucks it's time to make a splash. In comes Beltre. Same thing this offseason. EVERYONE saw how terrible Weaver and Horam were and that Wash is more of a number 5 than a #2. Bill is again ready to make a splash. He didn't get to last year, so he's ready to do it again. 2 years of Bedard IS worth it to him, although, the more 'informed' reports I see on Jones makes this untrue.
I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 1:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Big difference.
Beltre was a free agent. Nobody here would be objecting to Bavasi going after Bedard full bore if he were an FA. We just don't want to trade the farm for him, then lose him to FA before we're even ready to compete.
I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 2:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Question...
How much is too much though?

I mean, clearly Jones is the centerpiece to any deal for Bedard or (less likely) extended-Santana.  That's a safe assumption.  If, however, the M's and O's were able to manage a trade giving up, say, Morrow, Clement, Saunders, Tillman, and maybe a few other pieces, is it still a problem?

We also have to consider the way the front office handles its players and the way that players bats settle into Safeco.  Is the team's management smart enough to stick Jones in LF in Safeco where his defensive strengths are maximized (assuming Ichiro stays in CF)?  Good question.  It sounds like he's moving over to RF, where he'll still be a good defender, but in Safeco it's perhaps a slightly less important position to man.

For the sake of argument, let's say that having an above-average defender in LF is more crucial in Safeco than having one in RF.  So, the fact that the M's management doesn't recognize this and utilize Jones in this role diminishes his value to the M's even slightly.  It's not Jones' fault, of course, but it's still an issue.  

Likewise, the fact that Jones is a RH bat in Safeco takes away a little bit of his value to the M's, too.  I'm not sure if he's the type of hitter that can adjust to Safeco well, but he's certainly good enough of a hitter that he'll be a solid bat.  

Certainly Jones is one of our top young players.  He's one of the top up-and-comers in the game, position-player-wise.  But considering that the Mariners can spend money on players (unlike teams like Cleveland, Minnesota, Oakland, etc.) AND they  are run extremely inefficiently, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to trade Jones for a player like Bedard whose specific value to the M's (and the obstacles they place in front of themselves) is probably higher than Jones is now and possibly will be in the future (if, say Bedard decides he likes Seattle, and likes the bushels of $$$ they throw at him in free agency).

Bottom line, I have some reservations about Jones' future with the M's.  Clearly the issue becomes what one's assessment of the long-term risks of trading away Jones for a potential two-year "rent-an-ace" is.  Jones' overall value could be lessened by remaining in Safeco and within this dumb organization.  I'm intrigued by the possibility of getting someone whose value is a) presently higher than Jones' value and b) will be better utilized by a less-than-well-run Mariners organization.

The key to all of this, though, is the package that it will take to land Bedard.  Obviously it starts with Jones and will take more than that, likely.  But if something like Wlad+Morrow+Butler+Saunders+whatever gets the job done, then I think folks' perspectives on acquiring Bedard changes quite a bit.  Even if it's still "expensive" (prospect-wise), the fact that Jones himself isn't included will also temper peoples' reactions.  I'm not so attached to Jones that I'm unwilling to surrender him in a deal for Bedard.  But I recognize I'm clearly in a minority.  Yeah, gutting the farm for Bedard (i.e. Jones + CLement + Wlad + Morrow + etc...) isn't smart.  But Jones' immediate future production probably is somewhat replaceable (i.e. you can find glove-strong OFers that can hit enough or bat-strong OFers who can field enough).  

"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Dec 17, 2007 1:58 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Let's forget about Jones' value for a moment
do you think the M's are an Erik Bedard away from being at least even with the Angels?

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 2:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Honestly?
If Jones is still in the equation and Bedard is added, then yeah, they're pretty even.  
"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Dec 17, 2007 2:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But that again assumes
that Jones will both command a significant amount of innings and that he becomes what he should become.  I still think the M's have some catching up to do - they're not hopeless, but I don't think that Bedard is the one missing piece that catches the Angels.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 2:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
I, for one, think the Angels are overrated.  Kendrick will be good.  Kotchman, too.  Their pitching might still be better. But Jered Weaver could turn into Jeff Weaver, too.  Vlad is crazy good, but he's getting older and is breaking down.  Aybar isn't the SS that Cabrera was.  They have lots of question marks -- they're certainly not a sure thing either.  

The M's surprised a heck of a lot of people last year.  Yeah, you can call it "luck" you can call it whatever.  But if the M's have any semblance of a better rotation last year and even ONE pitcher that could go 6+ innings without giving up 5-6 runs, then they're a MUCH better team since the bullpen doesn't get so desperately worn down in August.  Maybe they lose a step, offensively, by giving up on Guillen.  Who's to say, though.  There's certainly a lot of question marks for the M's, too.  

But if the M's add Bedard and keep Jones, they still can make one or two moves to build some depth and hedge some injuries and still hang somewhat respectably with the Angels.  It'll take a lot less to get there by adding Bedard and a few smaller pieces than what the M's could try and do without landing him...

"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Dec 17, 2007 2:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's the thing, though
But if the M's add Bedard and keep Jones, they still can make one or two moves to build some depth and hedge some injuries and still hang somewhat respectably with the Angels.

You're right about that, but I have this horrible feeling that if the M's do get Bedard, they'll hang a big "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner at Safeco and call it good for the off-season.  And that, while definitely an improvement, is not as much of an improvement as the M's would need to close the gap with LAAAAAAofAAA.

I just know how completely hot-or-cold this M's offense was in '07, and if nothing besides the elevation of Jones is done, I don't see that getting any better any time soon.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 2:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Personally
I don't think there's any way we're going to get Bedard without losing Jones.

If we could (see Matthew's diary), I'd change my tune.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 2:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There are two sides to it, for sure...
Trading Adam Jones creates another hole for the Mariners, too, and we know Jones' value is as a long-term center field option with plus offensive ability.

Getting Bedard for two years is not maximizing Jones' return.

Defensive outfielders with above-average to plus offensive skills are at a premium right now.  Rowand gets 5/60, Hunter signs for 5/90 and a broken Andruw Jones gets 18 mil per.

While Baltimore is being very smart in asking for the world for Bedard - because someone might give them half of that, if not more - but the Mariners should be treating Jones the same way.

While he isn't proven at the big-league level, Bedard doesn't have a track record as an ace, either.

Personally, I'm at the point where I wouldn't make the deal if Jones was the only player heading east.

by JasonAChurchill on Dec 17, 2007 2:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I literally couldn't say it better myself.
Not that it isn't obvious how I feel about prospects.
I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 2:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think it matters how you feel
Bill IS going to make a deal for Bedard. Jones will be in that deal. Get used to it.
I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 2:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why do you keep saying this definitively?
There are several teams in on Bedard, and if a team like NYY or Boston jumps in, they could trump our package. If a deal with the M's were a sure thing, we'd know about it. Until then, we can discuss the merits of a potential deal.

by Teej on Dec 17, 2007 6:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd have to *really* think about it
but I'd probably lean towards passing on a Jones for Bedard straight up swap.

To compete in 2008 the Mariners need to do two things (and really, only these two things):

  1. Fill 2 rotation spots
  2. Improve OF defense while not punting OF offense
Jones for Bedard is lateral.

by Matthew on Dec 17, 2007 2:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't do it
I'd trade pretty much anyone else in the system (maybe even Tri :( ), but we need Jones. Any plan to make a serious run in 2008 has to include Adam Jones.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 2:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Again.
I recognize that I'm in the minority, but my love-fest for AJ is somewhat limited.  

That said, I'd still prefer Johann pull his head out and figure out what a nice place Seattle would be for him to pitch in.  A Jones-ful package for Johann would be much more palatable to me...

"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Dec 17, 2007 2:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Careful, he only has 1 year left
so getting an extension would be the only way to keep from getting crucified here. But I am sure you meant to include that.
I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 3:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Whoops, yeah.
"Extended-Johann" is my nickname for that.  I'll shorten it to "EJ" from now on...
"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Dec 17, 2007 3:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If Jones falls short of his potential
a combination of average bat + good/great defense makes him a good/great outfielder. While his future offensive productivity is up in the air, his glove is legit.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 3:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hm. I said that.
But not nearly as colorfully or as succinctly.

by rtang on Dec 17, 2007 3:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed!
It's a lateral move.
But, which FA's are easier to acquire? TOR's or TORRII's?
I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 2:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Since I don't know what a TORRII is
I'm going to say TOR which I assume means a very good starting pitcher.

by Matthew on Dec 17, 2007 2:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It was TOR v. Torii (or other offensive OF'rs)
terrible 'joke'.

Still think TOR's are easier than rowand/hunter/crawford?

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 2:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Tell me how you'd improve the OF defense
after trading away Jones and I'll reconsider my position.

by Matthew on Dec 17, 2007 3:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why the fixation on #1 starters?
There are countless ways to make a team better.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 2:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm.
Honestly, because the M's don't have one?  And need one?  

Yeah, Felix is on his way.  He's not there yet.  It'd be nice to have one while we're waiting for him...

I'm tired of "projects". The M's are a rich club.  There's no reason for them not to have a decent rotation, with two guys at the top.  

"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Dec 17, 2007 3:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure they need one
Or that any team does.  The only time the #1 designation matters is on Opening Day; after that, it's just the same guy once every five days or so.  They need good pitchers, sure, but don't fall into the trap of thinking the M's need one stud at the "top" of the rotation; they need solidity throughout, not one or two decent guys and three HoRams.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 3:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It matters in the playoffs.
Honestly
Bedard,Felix, Batista, Wash, RRS/Baek/Lehr/Dickey
is a solid rotation. Felix + the rest, isn't really.
You like the 1+4 rotation? It does get results, and we went with it in '07. Other teams have won WS with it, but we don't have Pujols.
I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 3:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Uh....
I don't like the 1+4 idea, not sure if you were responding to me or not, but I'm with you on this one.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 3:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Since when are we in a position
where we can start building our roster around what maximizes our chances in the playoffs?

The Mariners need to improve their run differential while making sure they don't sacrifice necessary pieces of the future. It's that simple. Erik Bedard accomplishes the first part, but deals tremendous damage to the second.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 3:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bedard will help DURING the season also.
to the amount that Jones' D will cancel the Morrow transition to the rotation over torri hunter I can't quantify.

Both lines of thinking require MORE moves to happen for us to be better. Which are easier acquire? OF or pitchers.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 3:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Run differential, yep.
I agree fully with your second statement. Bavasi will focus on now. So how will build a team after Jones is gone?
I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 3:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is what people keep forgetting
The M's are not one missing piece away from a fairytale run to Bud Selig handing them a trophy.  There's a lot of work to be done - if a relatively empty, streaky offense last year won 88 games, and was widely perceived to have overachieved, what happens in 2008 when the only upgrade to that offense (Adam Jones) gets traded for Bedard?
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 3:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

another piece people forget about our RA
is Weaver and ho ram were in our rotation, severely over inflating our RA.

Also, I wouldn't see AJ as an improvement over Guillens numbers. It would be good to expect the same for cheaper, at least in '08-09. 'Expecting' more than Guillen's numbers is prospect overvaluing by a tad.

Which area are we going to patch this offseason through FA? Pitching or Outfield?

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 3:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And the Angels had Colon/Santana
which severely inflated their RA.

Jones will be better, overall, than Guillen. Offense isn't the only thing a player contributes.

Free agency isn't the only way to adjust a roster, but given the current market, I'd much rather bring in the bargain FA arms than try to find a suitable RF (assuming Jenkins goes to Philly or SD).

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 3:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nobody needs a #1
What people need are good pitchers. Or, failing that, decent pitchers and a good defense.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 3:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, but those take creativity.
And our management doesn't have any.

I understand that bedard will not carry us to the postseason, but 1 + 4 rotation will keep us from winning once we get there. It CAN be done. The m's need another frontline starter to compete in the playoffs, if they were ever to be made.

Other teams have more than 1 good pitcher.

It works either way. Keep Jones, add 2 FA reclamation projects pitchers. Hope offense/defense can carry the team. Lose Jones, get Bedard. Add 1 FA reclamation project pitcher, plus 2 FA OF's. Its about the same for 2 years. Still forced to rely on FA's to fill holes.

SO we have add Loshe, Silva and keep Jones or Add Bedard, Jenkins, Stewart.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 3:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No
"The m's need another frontline starter to compete in the playoffs"

This is not true. There are many many ways to win.

by Matthew on Dec 17, 2007 3:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The Rockies say hello.
"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 17, 2007 3:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The Cardinals did have Carpetner
but that was more than balanced out by Reyes and Weaver.
"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 17, 2007 3:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Arizona!
Arizona had Schilling AND Johnson. Remember.

Look, I said it COULD be done, but are you going to argue against 'better teams have better rotations'?

It takes alot of team work to win a game, but you can't win if Jeff Weaver/FA reclam gives up 7 runs by the 3rd.

1+4 does work, just not in the AL.

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 3:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The White Sox did it
they had an average pitching staff backed up by a phenomenal team defense. It worked.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 3:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

2007 Arizona had neither.
"1+4 does work, just not in the AL."

Outscoring your opponents works everywhere. Doesn't matter how you do it.

by Matthew on Dec 17, 2007 3:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dude....
Having two "aces" is neither necessary NOR sufficient to win.

Other teams have done it without two "aces." Other teams have had two aces and have not won anything.

I think you (and possibly the team) is getting hypnotized by the thought of two hot arms at the top of the rotation and are forgetting the needs (CURRENT!) on the field and at the plate.

by rtang on Dec 17, 2007 3:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If the Cardinals can win it all
with Carpenter/Suppan/Reyes/Weaver, then a Bedard-less Mariners team cannot be said to be boned in a playoff situation.

Adding Lohse/Silva would be a different kind of disaster. We'd be tied into both of those guys through at least 2011.

Jenkins isn't going to sign here.

Do people realize that Jones is going to cost about $1m combined over the next three years? That's a huge advantage.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 3:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It helps that the Mets rotation
was ethnically cleansed in time for the NLCS.
"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 17, 2007 3:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure we can say
That we know his future is the centerfield/plus offense genre. I'd expect he's more likely to turn into the excellent offense/plus defense corner outfielder. Somewhat of a Carlos Lee/Jermaine Dye/Magglio Ordonez type rather than a Torri Hunter/Aaron Rowand/Andruw Jones type. I'm far from convinced yet that he's going to be a plus defensive centerfield after hearing first-hand reports from Tacoma and watching him here in Seattle last year. He's only been going at it for a couple years now, true, but somehow I think we'd see more from him already if he was on his way to becoming an elite type defender in center.

His bat though, I got no questions about. The guy's a hitter through and through, and it likely won't take him long in the Majors to show us that.

by nathaniel dawson on Dec 17, 2007 5:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good comment.
I don't think it will come down to us giving our top 4 guys, but Jones will be a MUST. In any ace for spects trade #1 HAS to go. Another 'rule' in trading for an ace is: you have to give up your best pitching spect, so Morrow will be included. To me, Clement is the next most valuable TO US, but not to them, which is why we should keep Clement.

Jones/Morrow are auto-ins for a Bedard trade. The rest of the package is what I am interested in.

Add Sherrill and Tui. Done.

O's get #1 fielder and pitching spects we have, PLUS MLB lefty and IF spect they want.
Is that too much?  Should we stop after Sherrill?
Who are the throwins? They want IF spects, do we include TRUI?
Jones and Trui straightup for Bedard?

I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 17, 2007 2:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Daily Blog List
Congratulations! SeattleIAM.com has chosen this blog article as one of the top articles in Vancouver for December 17, 2007. The SeattleIAM Daily Blog Review can be found on NowPublic.com

by SeattleIAM on Dec 17, 2007 2:01 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Dude, you didn't give me props for my article
about Griffey? What's up? This isn't even Jeff's best article.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 2:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

that's good nooz?
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 2:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wait...
One of the top article about Vancouver? It's almost as if it is bunk!!!
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 2:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I love teh interwebs
some random dude who writes for seattleIAM (whatever that is) has said that a blog written by a San Diegan is one of the top articles of the day about Vancouver.

WEEEE ARRRE THE WORRRRRLLLLD
WEEEE ARRRE THE CHILLLLLLDREN

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 2:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We globalize via the web.
And eventually, everybody will be speaking in AlTeRnAtInG cApS.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 2:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Whatever Jeff
You know you need the publicity, what with your blog being so unpopular and all.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 2:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Also
this subthread is closed. I don't want this thread straying from the topic, because it's important.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 2:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Just to re-rail
The M's are an Erik Bedard away from having a decent staff.  That does not at all mean they're an Erik Bedard away from October baseball.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 17, 2007 2:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Also, when making a good team
It's important that you think they can win in the playoffs as well. A lot of people on this thread are talking about how the Mariner's hitters did well last year. Even if we assume that's the case, they were so streaky that they would have been out first round of the playoffs against a good pitcher. So even if we are 1 pitcher away from the playoffs, we don't have the players to win once we get there.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 2:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Better to make the playoffs and
have a chance to win then not to even make the playoffs.  Just about every year a suprising team makes it to the world series, see rockies, cardinals, etc.

by drm1125 on Dec 17, 2007 4:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

They were all better than us.
And in the National league.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 4:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Streaky is as streaky does
Or they could go on a hot streak in the playoffs and overwhelm any pitcher they come up with no matter how good they were, no?

by nathaniel dawson on Dec 17, 2007 5:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

As I recall
we actually had the right kind of offense for the playoffs. Batting average-based, contact lineups have given teams better odds.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 5:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Also, Bedard is a Canadian.
Do we really want a Canadian on our team?

Although Jones is from San Diego.....

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 2:32 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

IS HE FRENCH-CANADIAN??!!
IF SO HE WILL RUIN THE TEAM, BELIEVE YOU ME!
I reject your reality and substitute my own!

by Phildopip on Dec 17, 2007 3:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He's from Vancouver BC.
Which theoretically could help our chances of signing him to an extension if he ended up here.
I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 3:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you missed the joke...
re:Aumont
I reject your reality and substitute my own!

by Phildopip on Dec 17, 2007 4:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ed McMahon says:
YOU ARE CORRECT SIR! HAHAHAHA....
I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 4:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good thing you still have yesterday's pants.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 4:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I always keep one extra pair in the car,
and one in the office. It never hurts to be prepared.
I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 4:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Funny
I say the same thing about my women.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 4:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Erik Bedard is from Ontario
And that might hurt our chances.  Detroit and esp. Toronto have a better chance of receiving a home town discount.

Adam Loewen's the local canuck on the Orioles.  

by marc w on Dec 17, 2007 4:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I just read BC yesterday...
On SI, ESPN, or one of the "major" sports sites. Not that they are always accurate. Maybe he has family in BC or something?
I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 4:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

How bad exactly
is Wlad's defense projected to be?  Because really that would be the telling tale as to how much of a loss Jones would be in a trade for Bedard.

Wlad's offense from last year was as good in alot of ways as Jones'... so that should be a fairly similar transition.

Wlad actually was better on the basepaths then Jones....

Both have extremely strong arms.  Both have played all 3 outfield positions in the minors, so while Jones' is projected to be a gold glove calibur, I can't imagine that Wlad wouldn't be an improvement upon both Raul and and Guillen defensively.

by MfaninAlaska on Dec 17, 2007 3:55 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I think...
...you're not considering the magnitude of difference in their defensive abilities (Jones has to be considered a lot quicker, and being better than either Raul or Guillen is not saying much). Basestealing is not equivalent to range.

And I still think Jones' game (more line drives) is better suited to Safeco than Wlad.

by rtang on Dec 17, 2007 3:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I know
basestealing isn't equivalent to range, but it does show reaction and foot speed...

as for Jones' offense .. his linedrives may be a plus... but Wlad's batting eye and ability to take a walk is a plus in his favor.

The question that I have is... would the M's be better off with Felix, Bedard, Washburn, Batista, and PTBL and Wlad vs. Felix, a reclamation project, Washburn, Batista, and PTBL and Jones.

Maybe that's just a dumb question because I know how big of Jones' fans the majority of this board is.

by MfaninAlaska on Dec 17, 2007 4:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not exactly the same thing:
"basestealing isn't equivalent to range, but it does show reaction and foot speed"

Reading a pitcher to get a good jump to steal a base, and getting a good jump on a fly ball are very different skills. Trying to link one (base stealing) to the other (defensive range) is really a stretch.

Granted, the players speed has something to do with both skills, but look at Willie. Pretty good base stealer, horrible outfielder. So explain to me how WFB can be so effective stealing bases with his great reactions and foot speed, but so bad in the OF with the same skills.

I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 4:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sorry
I didn't realize we were going to use utility players that don't play regularly much less the majority of their time in the outfield to prove a point.

You got me there... I've got no evidence to prove otherwise.

by MfaninAlaska on Dec 17, 2007 4:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay. How about the all time stolen base king?
Rickey Henderson. GREAT base stealer, never considered GG in the outfield.
I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 4:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually,
early in his career, especially when he was stealing the most, he was also considered an excellent defensive outfielder. And there is definitely a correlation between basestealing ability and range and overall defensive proficiency in the outfield. It's certainly far from perfect, but they do overlap quite a bit.

Not saying this has anything to do with a Balentien/Jones comparison, but I thought it should be mentioned.

by nathaniel dawson on Dec 17, 2007 6:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The only correllation between the two is
that the more athletic someone is, the more likely they are to be good at both base stealing and defense.

But trying to compare getting a jump on a fly ball, or taking a good route to getting a good jump stealing a base is a huuuuuuuuge stretch.

I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 18, 2007 10:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He actually won a GG.
"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 17, 2007 8:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So has Jeter.
I'm using "GG" to mean he's a great defender. People win the actual award all the time even though they aren't the best glove at their position.
I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 18, 2007 10:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree.
However he must have been regarded as a great defender by the mainstream for him to have won one.
"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 18, 2007 10:09 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The Ms need to add another OF
before they do anything else really. They're not going to compete with Raul in LF everday and if they stick with that, I'd rather hold onto Jones.

by Matthew on Dec 17, 2007 4:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Jones is a lot faster
he's just the better athlete. And the fact that he used to play short (whereas Wlad has always been in the outfield) indicates that he's got pretty good reactions, too - his body just outgrew the position.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 4:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That happened to one of my ex-GF too.
Sucks when they outgrow the position.
I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 4:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Man
that had to be some serious outgrowing.
Go Fo Broke!

by eknpdx on Dec 17, 2007 4:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Damn those prepubescent youth!
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 17, 2007 4:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Over Raul/Guillen last year
practically anyone would be an improvement.

Leaving aside the matter of offense for a moment, I've heard Wlad talked about as being anything from below-average to slightly above-average in a corner, while Jones has been talked about as a fringe GG center fielder. So if you put them in right, you probably have something like this:

Wlad: -5 < x < +5
Jones: +10 < x < +20

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 17, 2007 3:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

IMO,
Wlad will be an average corner OF, where Jones has the potential to be a GG CF.

Wlad is more conservative on the basepaths, so maybe that is why he appears to be "better" than AJ. I don't have any problems with AJ getting thrown out learning how to steal in AAA. Wlad really isn't a threat on the basepaths as far as I know (although AJ is more "1st to 3rd" fast then "base stealing" fast at this point).

AJ has a much better arm that Wlad, not that Wlad's arm sucks, but I wouldn't say it was "extremely strong".

I think the only real advantage Wlad has over AJ is his sheer HR power (he can hit it a mile), although they stayed neck and neck in HR's in Tacoma last year.

I overvalue prospects

by Thingray on Dec 17, 2007 4:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hrm
Granted, I've only watched Wlad play maybe like twice, but from my possibly completely wrong perspective, Wlad is less of a complete offensive player than Jones is. Success in AAA doesn't necessarily translate to awesomeness at the next level.

Defensively, Jones wins hands down -- and he's still learning. Wlad probably would be an improvement over Raul and Guillen, but then again so would a tortoise.

by manifestus on Dec 17, 2007 4:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No More
than we missed Jones playing his second season at AAA while Wlad was playing his first season.

by MfaninAlaska on Dec 17, 2007 6:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

At age 21 to 23
Jones wins again.

by Graham on Dec 17, 2007 6:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Just my two cents...
As so many things, a lot depends.  If the M's think they'll want to resign Bedard (and you'd think they'd have the money) it's probably worth it, assuming his ERA stays in 3.2-3.7 range the next 5 years.  If they're just getting him for the next two years, I'd say it's not worth the cost. Though some of the M's players aren't getting any younger (Ichiro will be 36, Wash will be 35, etc.), and Felix will be in arbitration at that point.
*Visiting Angels fan* Never give up, never surrender!

by TheOptimist on Dec 17, 2007 8:16 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Just for fun I kinda looked
back at last year and tried to figure out how good everybody did.  My rough numbers showed our lineup was about 25 runs above average offensively and 30 runs below average defensively.  I got my offense numbers from baseball reference and just basically made up my defensive numbers (kinda along the lines of what we've discussed in the past).

I also just guessed at what our lineup would look like next year by just fudging the numbers around a little for each player.  I kept Ibanez in LF and stuck Jones in RF.  Doing that plus adding a little regression (good or bad) across the board I came up with a lineup that was 15 runs above average offensively and 5 runs above average defensively which makes for a 25 run total improvement.

Just guessing but our SP will probably be a little better (it can't get much worse right...) and our bullpen probably will lose a little which will kinda cancel out.  Applying the +25 run improvement gives us about a +5 run differential.  Just like last season...looks like we'll be a .500 ballclub.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 17, 2007 10:47 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

A kinda random question
Who'd you rather have next year as your DH?  Vidro or Sexson?  If I forced you to pick, who do you think would have a more productive year as a DH?  

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 18, 2007 12:00 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Not the least of which because you want him
off first.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 18, 2007 9:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Trading AJ for Bedard
would pretty much lock Raul in LF, and that would be another sad display of veteran-ness. Maybe I AM against the trade idea. Yesterday I felt like we were just butting heads, likely because I undervalued our #1 spec. Raul/Guillen were visibly terrible out there, it WOULD be a shame to not adress this issue and focus soley on landing the big name. I can see how improving the outfield D (our last line of defense) should dramatically improve our RA. Our pitching blows as well, but there is not point bringing in a stud if the outfield is going to give runs away. God, Raul's arm might be worse than Johnny Damon's.
I guess you were right, as good as bedard is, he isn't worth (in RS/RA) the package being offered.
I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 18, 2007 10:26 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm coming around, too.
This incompetent regime does not have the cojones or the perspicuity to pull off the scenario where landing Bedard actually improves this team.  

Hell, I'd rather have Jeremy friggin' Reed out in LF than Raul Ibanez...

"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Dec 18, 2007 10:41 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No kidding
Reed was/is a great outfielder. I saw he did well in AAA again. He always had a decent plate approach with very marginal results in MLB. Probably stuck in AAAA for life.
I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 18, 2007 12:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Reed is not a great OF
He has okay to good range and a poor arm.

by Matthew on Dec 18, 2007 1:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're right again
I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.

by Montucky on Dec 18, 2007 1:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Mostly, of course...
Reed's a decent defender (yeah, with no arm), who'd be next-to-free (contract-wise) and still young. Throwing arms are overrated.  He's not "great" but he's not bad.  I'd say he's at least average. He's done, though, in this organization.  I'm not sure his bat will come around, really, either...
"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Dec 18, 2007 1:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Did you ever find out what the 'murky' reason was?
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by CapSea on Dec 18, 2007 1:59 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Bedard
Two things could make it a no-brainer:

(a) M's get a long-term extension worked out for Bedard in advance. Yes, he is worth it.

(b) M's manage to hang on to either Morrow or Jones (one will have to go.)

If they can work out a Bedard deal with those two things included, it really MUST be done, and it could make for a stronger team for the next five years, not just two.

ScoutingBook: Top Baseball Prospects, Closers and more.

by scoutingbook on Dec 19, 2007 12:11 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

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