Two Wrongs, No Rights, And Why Bloggers Still Struggle For Respect
This has become a pretty popular subject across the network, so I thought I might as well say my piece...
(Not directly related to baseball, so it's continued after the jump)

A few days ago, crappy Philadelphia Daily News columnist Bill Conlin wrote a crappy article about why Jimmy Rollins deserved to win the MVP. A Phillies blogger disagreed with the idea and sent Conlin an email, asking why Rollins was a better candidate than David Wright. The exchange that followed was inflammatory and less than eloquent, and the blogger decided to post it in full on his website. This has since attracted a lot of attention, and in no small part because of Conlin's Hitler reference, countless people have been taken aback and voiced their desire to see Conlin out of a job. Such behavior is completely inappropriate and offensive, they say, and Conlin should therefore be relieved of his duties.
They're sort of right. Had Conlin acted the way he did in a public forum, he'd almost have to be fired on the spot. But that's not what he did. He sent private (and horrible) emails to somebody who then decided to copy them word for word onto a public website without Conlin's consent. Emails that absolutely would have been written differently had Conlin known that they might get posted. Showing them to his readers is completely unethical on the blogger's part, a violation of the fundamental understanding that one's permission must be sought before his words are shared with those who weren't privy to the discussion. Anyone who fancies himself a bit of a writer ought to know better than to do what the blogger did. It's just irresponsible.
What's done is done, though, and now Conlin's going to come under relentless fire for saying what he said in a series of emails that never should've been brought to anyone's attention. A blogger with a cause can mobilize an awful lot of support, and there are few things people enjoy doing more than complaining about somebody else. Conlin and his superiors are going to be hearing about this for a long, long time.
All because of something the blogger had no right to post. Look, Bill Conlin is the quintessential crotchety old man, a loudmouthed, ignorant curmudgeon who hates everything that happened after the Soyuz program. He is not a good columnist, and he doesn't really deserve his job. At the same time, though, he doesn't deserve to lose his job over something like this, nor should he be severely punished. The day Conlin gets fired for being a dick in a private email is the day you get fired for telling a friend that your boss is stupid and fat. If people were penalized for making the occasional asshole remark, then no one would have a job. What matters is that you're courteous and professional when you need to be, and Conlin clearly didn't interpret this email exchange as one of those situations.
Don't give me the line about how Conlin should've known better than to say those things to a blogger. The blogger should've known better than to repeat them. If you don't like a guy, rip into him for his columns. Don't rip into him for something he said in private correspondence. That's amateurish behavior, and stuff like this is a big reason why bloggers with actual journalistic integrity still struggle to get the kind of respect they deserve. So thanks for setting us back, Bill B. of Crashburn Alley. I hope it was worth it.
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156 comments
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I almost got fired
I know that's unrelated, but I agree with you, so there isn't much else for me to say.
by Librocrat on
Nov 24, 2007 1:50 AM PST
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At least I can rest easy
Oh wait.
by Graham on
Nov 24, 2007 1:55 AM PST
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JUST BECAUSE HE PLAYS BASEBALL
by Graham on
Nov 24, 2007 2:03 AM PST
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I understand the blogger was in the wrong
However, anyone with half a brain would know not to send that e-mail to someone who can publish something to a reasonably sized audience. He shouldn't get fired over this (Maybe over the Jimmy Rollins article though, because that was terrible), or not even necessarily punished, but I do think that it will and SHOULD stick with him and his legacy. When you think there might be even a 1% chance that your words might get reposted somewhere, and those words could get you fired then you should think first and not send that e-mail.
I agree what the blogger did was retarded and hurts our reputation and credibility. He shouldn't have done it because it was juvenille to "tell" on Conlin. But Conlin doesn't get off free either. His job shouldn't be lost for this, but his credibility is damaged and for good reason. That's what he deserves, and it already happened.
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on
Nov 24, 2007 2:13 AM PST
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Hear hear
Did Conlin look at crashburnalley.com before his exchange with the blogger? If so, then he should have been aware that the website's author is pretty immature. Having that in mind, Conlin should have chosen his words much more carefully. Especially considering that he picked lousy words to use in the first place.
Just because the blogger had no right to do what he did doesn't mean that Conlin should not have expected it. He's in the public eye, and he should have seen this coming.
by Katal LM on
Nov 24, 2007 8:25 AM PST
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To summarize
Conlin was even moreso.
by Katal LM on
Nov 24, 2007 8:28 AM PST
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Nice post Jeff...
For a more reasoned defense of Rollins winning the MVP check out this post by Tangotiger.
It's not entirely convincing but at least he backs it up with numbers and what not.
by Patrick517 on
Nov 24, 2007 2:27 AM PST
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Wait, what?
by Graham on
Nov 24, 2007 2:38 AM PST
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Not sure really...
by Patrick517 on
Nov 24, 2007 6:21 AM PST
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Jeff, a question
Let's say this wasn't an email. Rather just actual mail typed out onto a real piece of paper.
If it was actual mail, would the recipient be justified in complaining about Conlin's response? Or not?
by rfloh on
Nov 24, 2007 2:31 AM PST
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I absolutely do not think it's reasonable.
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 2:58 AM PST
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But wouldn't the result be the same?
by rfloh on
Nov 24, 2007 7:35 AM PST
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In one situation
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 3:40 PM PST
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It's classless by all parties involved, agreed
Not that either party acted in the right, as Jeff says in the title, but I'm thinking Conlin is "more" in the wrong.
by Matthew on
Nov 24, 2007 2:40 AM PST
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Legally, I'm pretty sure he's in the clear.
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 2:58 AM PST
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I wonder....
by TheEmrys on
Nov 24, 2007 6:00 AM PST
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Batteries in snowballs
by rfloh on
Nov 24, 2007 6:49 AM PST
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Philly Fans
I've never thrown a battery at someone, either.
I did, however, stand up and applaud Barry Bonds in 2006 when he hit his 713th HR off of Jon Lieber, both before, during, and after his at-bat, when everyone else was booing.
I'm not your typical Philly fan, and I often detest the behavior of those fans who do represent Philadelphia.
by CrashburnAlley on
Nov 24, 2007 6:52 AM PST
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Legal and Moral Aspects
As for the E-mails, you sounded like you were getting into morals. The legal aspect of it was brought up and is correct: I have the legal right to post any E-mail I receive. Once they click "Send," I essentially get all intellectual rights to the contents of that E-mail. As to whether or not that is right, I guess that's up to each individual. You are not wrong for believing that my actions hinge on immoral, and I am not wrong for believing the opposite. So it goes with moral relativism.
by CrashburnAlley on
Nov 24, 2007 6:45 AM PST
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Morals aside for a second
The massive furor this seems to have stirred up might get proffesionals to tread a bit more carefully in their communications with the blogs, or they might go for the efficient solution and hit 'delete email' rather than get drawn into anything (NB: I'm aware you were being civilised and calm throughout that chain of emails, and that Conlin was the one acting like a lunatic).
Do you not perceive this as having a negative effect on mainstream/blog relations? If so, was getting Conlin into what will presumably be lots of trouble worth the future hostility bloggers may receive from sports journalists as a result? I understand you have every right to post whatever ends up in your inbox, but it just seems like a poor strategic move to me.
by Graham on
Nov 24, 2007 7:17 AM PST
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I didn't mean to imply that you were inflammatory
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 12:27 PM PST
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So you have no problem
by Aaron on
Nov 24, 2007 3:03 PM PST
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Devil's Advocate
by Librocrat on
Nov 24, 2007 3:08 PM PST
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That's not true.
by Librocrat on
Nov 24, 2007 3:19 PM PST
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Conlin has an AOL email address
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 3:21 PM PST
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Ha
All I read was that it was the email address posted next to his name on the Philadelphia's news website. Beyond that, I didn't look into it.
Separate but related, though: If I got an email from Bush or Cheney, that used... say, an anti-semetic slur, I would post it in a second and not regret it at all. Whether it came from the_decider@yahoo.com, or POTUS@whitehouse.org
by Librocrat on
Nov 24, 2007 3:25 PM PST
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That doesn't make it the right thing to do.
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 3:27 PM PST
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It wasn't supposed to be
Conlin's statements don't really bother me that much, other than he sounds like a complete idiot.
by Librocrat on
Nov 24, 2007 3:28 PM PST
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Let's say that's true for a moment
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 3:57 PM PST
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The uncalled for, repeated slander
This was a man going way out of bounds to slander a reader who went out of his way to write him with thoughtful criticism of a piece he wrote. If the blogger in question says nothing, then in the public conscience, this never happened. Is that a good thing?
by Gomez on
Nov 24, 2007 5:53 PM PST
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You're tacitly validating Conlin's behavior
by Gomez on
Nov 24, 2007 6:20 PM PST
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They weren't that bad.
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 6:22 PM PST
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Go to his boss
by Graham on
Nov 24, 2007 5:56 PM PST
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Then
... if he is punished at all. What if the paper decides to cover it up and blow the blogger in question off? Then it basically never happened.
by Gomez on
Nov 24, 2007 6:20 PM PST
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It's easy to cover up why someone was canned.
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 6:25 PM PST
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Then Conlin gets another job
I see the disconnect between our POVs. I admit I'm lacking the words that would close it at this point. I see the merit in your argument, though. I'm not going to deny it's a dicey moral ground. E-mail and blogs are still relatively new, and the etiquette w/r/t their usage is still being hashed out.
by Gomez on
Nov 24, 2007 6:35 PM PST
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Well, people know that Conlin is belligerent.
Bill Conlin's job is to write articles. Everyone would obviously love for him to be more understanding of other viewpoints, but he's not, and to the best of my knowledge he never has been. How does his acting like an asshole to a reader affect his job performance? And if you're reading one of his articles, why should it make any difference to you whether or not he's an abrasive son of a bitch?
So as far as "people have no idea the guy is a belligerent, childish asshat to dissenters" is concerned, I don't see why that matters.
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 6:52 PM PST
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I'm not sure
There comes a point where some moral codes override others, and I think that's where the disconnect comes in: is there a point when one's actions preclude the right to privacy in a given medium?
by Gomez on
Nov 24, 2007 6:57 PM PST
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Yeah
I guess I'm just not real fond of things I perceive as intrusions of privacy.
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 7:06 PM PST
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Funny
by Librocrat on
Nov 24, 2007 7:50 PM PST
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re: What?
by Aaron on
Nov 24, 2007 8:01 PM PST
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Bingo
by Librocrat on
Nov 24, 2007 8:02 PM PST
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Not to prove a point, though
by Librocrat on
Nov 24, 2007 8:03 PM PST
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Not to jump on the subthread
by Matthew on
Nov 24, 2007 8:06 PM PST
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You may be right.
Although they claim it's not illegal... hmm...
by Librocrat on
Nov 24, 2007 8:42 PM PST
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Fine.
by Aaron on
Nov 24, 2007 4:05 PM PST
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That I can agree with.
by Librocrat on
Nov 24, 2007 4:21 PM PST
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It doesnt matter what server the e-mail comes from
by Aaron on
Nov 24, 2007 3:40 PM PST
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Worth it?
Perhaps you're more far-sighted than I am, and this could be the trend among journalists in the future.
However, do all journalists say that the recipient(s) of their message deserve(s) to be silenced or killed, as Conlin implied with this Hitler comments? I think most journalists are able to communicate rationally and maturely to their E-mails, and if not, shame on them.
by CrashburnAlley on
Nov 24, 2007 7:35 AM PST
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Don't get me wrong
If I were a journalist, my way of stopping this sort of thing would be to not respond to emails like yours at all rather than risk saying something that might be construed as offensive. I could, of course, be totally off base and nothing might come of this at all.
by Graham on
Nov 24, 2007 8:01 AM PST
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Scared?
http://crashburnalley.com/?p=49
What I said about that:
"If journalists cannot communicate with E-mailers without insinuating that they are worthy of having no freedom of speech and/or worthy of being killed, then that falls on the journalists.
I guess the journalists could be hesitant to respond to E-mailers for anything that might get taken out of context and blown out of proportion, but then again, they can just comb over their E-mails and make sure they were professional, factual, and rational.
It's the journalists' loss -- not the readers' -- if they don't respond to E-mails. When they respond, they are representing the publication they work for, and thus, are advertising in a sense. A good rapport with a reader increases the chance that they will purchase the publication in the future, and a bad rapport decreases that chance. With most print publications hurting, behavior like Conlin's only sets himself and his employer(s) back."
by CrashburnAlley on
Nov 24, 2007 8:03 AM PST
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They could just comb it over
I guess what this little debate comes down to is whether you consider relations with the mainstream press to be particularly important. Honestly, I think that proffesional journalists can offer us a lot more than we can them (assuming they aren't nutcases). I know the M's blogs have very good relationships with some of the local beat writers, Athletics Nation as well with theirs, and that having that network in place is a very useful tool.
Obviously, the whole Conlin thing won't damage any relationship already in place, but it might make establishing future ones more difficult. Then again, it might not. But we all have our own opinions :).
by Graham on
Nov 24, 2007 8:22 AM PST
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relations won't be effected
I share your concerns, but in this case I don't think it will hurt or hinder relations.
MSM who are interested in having relationships with bloggers or their readers in general aren't the ones who would send responses like Conlin's.
Essentially the Conlin types are lost causes anyways. So sure, those in Conlin's camp might hit delete instead of responding, but is that a great loss at that point?
Do you really think that the types of writers who would write the things that Conlin did could be "won over"?
by billfer on
Nov 24, 2007 9:42 AM PST
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Yeah, I do... sort of
I believe that at least some of them might be won over by well thought out debate - which incidentally is what the Crashburn Alley guy was attempting to engage Mr. Conlin in. Publishing the emails will just lead to more friction on both sides, however, and that mutual aggression is precisely why Conlin behaved the way he did in the first place*.
Why fan the flames? Even Conlin himself changed his position on Bert Blyleven's HoF-worthiness, apparently as the result of an email exchange from a reader, so it's hard for me to paint his entire camp as irredeemable.
*That and the fact that he's got all the mental prowess of a toothbrush.
by Graham on
Nov 24, 2007 9:59 AM PST
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Conlin
by CrashburnAlley on
Nov 24, 2007 10:37 AM PST
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Maybe you're right
I just view it as there are those receptive to blogs, some who don't really know what to think, and those who are against it.
I don't really know what those on the fence would make of it
by billfer on
Nov 24, 2007 1:05 PM PST
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The very first email
For a journalist, sports fans -- and even more so sports communities -- are your customer. You can't talk to the customer like that and expect them to not tell their friends.
by oneiric232 on
Nov 24, 2007 8:09 AM PST
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I can't agree with that
by Graham on
Nov 24, 2007 8:25 AM PST
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if a blogger asked a public service worker
Is being the idiot who should have known better really an adequate explanation for horrible judgment?
the log
by OlyOle on
Nov 24, 2007 9:28 AM PST
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The only problem I have
by Edgar for Pres on
Nov 24, 2007 11:00 AM PST
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after reading that
But really, what he said wasn't that horrific, he clearly says the only good thing about Hitler's time on earth, he wasn't being pro-Hitler. For someone to be offended by anything other then his rudeness is just an over reaction on their part. Social censorship through political correctness once again going too far
by Trenchtown2 on
Nov 24, 2007 12:07 PM PST
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I'll be honest
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 12:42 PM PST
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I forget what they called it
by Mere Tantalisers on
Nov 24, 2007 12:18 PM PST
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Godwin's Law
by Mere Tantalisers on
Nov 24, 2007 12:20 PM PST
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he was an attorney
by Trenchtown2 on
Nov 24, 2007 1:00 PM PST
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Allow me to re-state something here:
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 12:44 PM PST
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That's what I thought I was talking about
by Graham on
Nov 24, 2007 12:48 PM PST
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Then I guess we're agreed.
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 12:53 PM PST
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Why did they decide
by Librocrat on
Nov 24, 2007 1:48 PM PST
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I never e-mailed him
Oh, the days of Sportspot...
by Katal LM on
Nov 24, 2007 4:36 PM PST
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Um, Hai.
by PositivePaul on
Nov 24, 2007 7:51 PM PST
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I fail
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 7:54 PM PST
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Well...
It's funny that I was actually trying to DEFEND Finnegan back then.
by PositivePaul on
Nov 24, 2007 8:04 PM PST
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Haha, oh yeah. Those.
by Gomez on
Nov 24, 2007 8:03 PM PST
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I think it all depends
by Trenchtown2 on
Nov 24, 2007 12:56 PM PST
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Well said, Jeff.
by ryanhealy on
Nov 24, 2007 1:13 PM PST
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I've totally seen this before
It's a dicey moral ground. But I'm a nihilist when it comes to moral piety, and willing to be a vigilante when you cross the line, regardless of whether such vigilance is the 'right thing to do.' The way I see it, the moment you decide the rules of etiquette don't apply in correspondence, then citing those same rules as a reason to keep private such correspondence is hypocrisy and I'm willing to ignore said rules if I see it fit.
Now as an aside, personally, I try to always write personal correspondence with a general respect, and refrain from the sort of nastiness you wouldn't dare use in public, as if you were personally speaking with a professional colleague or a friend I respect.
If you ask me to keep our correspondence off the record and you're a respected friend or colleague, I will (in fact, this situation came up in the past week... long story short, any blogging I did on a personal matter among friends came to a quick halt and our discussion was never aired).
However, I'm not sure I could say the same if you were, say, a newswriter sending me angry and abusive messages, especially if it goes against your established image with the general public. I want to say I wouldn't do the same as this blogger did... but I'm not so sure. It would depend on the circumstances, what you were trying to pull, if you thought that you could leverage your position into being abusive in private correspondence and get away with it out of intimidation, etc.
I would maybe take a more morally pious approach if the blogger in question was being excessive. I'm sure Geoff Baker or even Bob Finnigan would never talk back to a critical reader like this. But really, he wasn't, yet Conlin fired back with the usual arrogant, almost childish crackbacks that journalists reserve for bloggers. I have no sympathy for Conlin after little gems like the following:
Know what, pal? Bash this. . .Tell your bloggers, my career against theirs. . .
One question: When a Mets team chokes in a forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it make a gagging sound? Next time bring more to the table than wishful fan numbers that bear no semblance to reality. I wonder how it feels to be the Phillies bitch
What a consummate professional. He totally did not deserve the racks for this.
...
Morally, you can debate in a vacuum the merits of airing private correspondence, but either way, on a separate note, Conlin should have conducted himself with more professionalism. What the blogger did doesn't have the impact it did if Conlin hadn't been such an unprofessional, childish jerk in correspondence. He deserves to lose his job for representing his paper so poorly.
by Gomez on
Nov 24, 2007 1:53 PM PST
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Stuffed Crust pizza
/off-topic comment
by andrewgolfsalot on
Nov 24, 2007 2:08 PM PST
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I'm not even going to
(I take your word on how things went down).
Sure the columnist should've known better, and maybe he's a poor writer (I'm not going to the article's link either btw) but as Jeff said, posting what the other party thought was private correspondance in public is classless, period.
by Tom C on
Nov 24, 2007 3:20 PM PST
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I agree
by naviomelo on
Nov 24, 2007 4:59 PM PST
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The media is actually useful
by Graham on
Nov 24, 2007 5:08 PM PST
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Sure, they're useful.
Baker's been an improvement over the past fluff we've had in the papers, but are you more excited to read his columns than a new post on one of your favorite M's blogs? People in the mainstream media are certainly not there because they're the best at what they're supposed to do, in my opinion.
by naviomelo on
Nov 24, 2007 10:36 PM PST
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It's legal
If you think my posting of our E-mail correspondence was wrong, you have every right to believe that.
Legally, I have every right to post our E-mail correspondence. Once he hits "Send," he loses all rights to the contents of his E-mail. The only way I wouldn't have rights to the contents is if I access the E-mail message without his permission (i.e. hacking into his E-mail account or something).
I was not practically in the wrong. To some, I was subjectively in the wrong, but there's no correct assumption on that front.
by CrashburnAlley on
Nov 24, 2007 4:59 PM PST
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True. But aren't you pretty much sinking to his
The point of all of this is that bloggers need to be given some respect and due by these people. This whole incident is not helping that cause in any way.
by Goose on
Nov 24, 2007 5:16 PM PST
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That's silly
Now, you are correct in that strictly by the definition of the law, you did nothing wrong. But it was still a dick move, because it's following the letter of the law, not the spirit. The logical extension of your argument is that no discourse, aside from face to face in a soundproof room, is private. Everything is up for grabs, and can be exploited for gain. Let the writer beware, as it were. And who wants to live in that world?
by JAH on
Nov 24, 2007 5:29 PM PST
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This kinda bothers me
Where does that argument lead? Can people do whatever they like as long as they're acting within the law, since they don't have to have the same morals as everyone else. To take it to the extreme, would it be ok to trick someone into giving up their life savings, as long as you acted within the law the whole time? There is an overall cultural morality as well as an individual one - this determines acceptable behavior, and is indeed the basis of the legal system. People who don't stick within societal norms are prosecuted/cast out.
I don't like the morality angle, anyway, so moving swiftly on...
I still think this is a matter of politics and blogger-MSM relations (and I'm pretty sure Jeff does too, although he's weighting the moral side higher than me since I don't have any to speak of). You might claim not to be practically in the wrong, and if this uproar dies down without much happening, you'll be right. However... in terms of possible consequences - I'm fairly sure you didn't think much about them since you're so surprised about the controversy this has stirred up - I'm not at all convinced hitting 'post' was a wise idea. It's not just a morality thing :)
I'm not attacking you or anything; I do the exact same thing all the time (which does lead so some lovely flamewars on this blog), although my shitstorms tend to be smaller in scale and end with people calling me a bastard.
by Graham on
Nov 24, 2007 5:47 PM PST
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I believe the legal term is
by Mere Tantalisers on
Nov 24, 2007 6:16 PM PST
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He represents his newspaper badly
Newspapers, in turn, are in part a kind of public trust, and not just any sort of private enterprise. If they have any ethics they act on a certain standard of thoughtful engagement with their community. If they (or their writers) start spewing garbage at their readers in correspondence, there is no reason to believe that is a private matter.
In other words, at the papers I worked at Conlin's ass would be fired by now -- not just because of the Hitler garbage, but also because he should understand that you get no private, protected communications with readers. Anything you write to a reader, you should be willing to have published.
And from Graham's perspective, if newspapers (or their writers) start treating readers with gross disrespect, the reader should make that public. Even as an ex-reporter I have no problem with that idea.
Finally, let me give you a comparison. I'm a public school teacher. If I wrote something similar to the parent of a student, would it be wrong for that parent to make that correspondence public? I don't think so. It would be foolish of me to expect otherwise.
by Andy James on
Nov 24, 2007 5:12 PM PST
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I think that's right...
I don't exactly understand Jeff's position on the blogger. Conlin was essentially answering another journalist's question about his column... bloggers are journalists. He didn't say his comments were private or off the record, at least not that I saw. Therefore, they are fair game. That's how Conlin himself operates, I'm sure.
by toonprivate on
Nov 24, 2007 5:25 PM PST
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You shouldn't have to assume
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 5:32 PM PST
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Maybe the question is
by Librocrat on
Nov 24, 2007 5:39 PM PST
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Not all e-mails are the same
by zugzwang on
Nov 25, 2007 12:18 AM PST
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Right
by toonprivate on
Nov 25, 2007 10:39 AM PST
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Andy James
by CrashburnAlley on
Nov 24, 2007 5:16 PM PST
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I don't think anyone here is arguing legality
by Librocrat on
Nov 24, 2007 5:22 PM PST
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Email is suddenly confidential by default?
Moreover, since when is something you email to somebody subject to the expectation of confidentiality by default? Especially if you're emailing from an address from an organization with a public voice?
It's one thing if a friend betrays the confidence of a personal email from another friend, because the relationship implies a certain level of confidence. But a columnist to a reader? There's no confidence, even an implicit one, to betray.
by poorartists on
Nov 24, 2007 5:40 PM PST
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Paper mail is confidential, so email should be as
by Goose on
Nov 24, 2007 5:43 PM PST
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I don't agree with that.
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 5:54 PM PST
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Well...
If you're a columnist and you reply to a reader, however, that is not private. It's part of the dialog between the newspaper and its readers. I expect most newspapers feel that way as well, and in this I would agree with them.
Let's take another test case. Suppose you're Jewish, you write to the editor protesting coverage of, say, the Palestinians. Suppose the editor writes back: "Who cares about the opinion of a Jew like you anyway?"
I, for one, would make that exchange public. Wouldn't you?
by Andy James on
Nov 24, 2007 6:07 PM PST
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Just because you happen to be a columnist
by Goose on
Nov 24, 2007 6:10 PM PST
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No.
When I reply to reader emails, I'm courteous, but I'm also generally a lot less formal, because I assume that it's only going to be read by the guy on the other end. Do you think Conlin would've written what he did if he thought his emails would be posted online?
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 6:14 PM PST
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Maybe he should've thought of that
Why in his right mind would he believe that acting that way would have no recourse?
by Gomez on
Nov 24, 2007 6:23 PM PST
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I imagine Conlin assumed that the blogger
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 6:27 PM PST
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But you represent only yourself.
by Andy James on
Nov 24, 2007 6:29 PM PST
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So writers shouldn't have any online privacy?
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 6:31 PM PST
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Not in communications with readers.
by Andy James on
Nov 24, 2007 6:39 PM PST
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I think the rules resemble those of a phone convo
Here's the thing... I recall seeing e-mail correspondence reposted on blogs, and usually without any permission, formal or informal... though granted the correspondence is usually far less malicious. If I can dig up some examples, I will try and link them.
This is quite the interesting topic, the ethos behind e-mail correspondence and reposting thereof, certainly a topic worth thinking about.
by Gomez on
Nov 24, 2007 6:41 PM PST
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Well
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 6:44 PM PST
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Uh ohs
by Gomez on
Nov 24, 2007 6:58 PM PST
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Only when it's entire articles.
by Jeff on
Nov 24, 2007 7:03 PM PST
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As far as the Hitler comment goes.
He Godwinned the email. Even on noted flame wars sites like Fark, if you godwin the argument, everybody laughs at you. It's lazy and unintelligent. But IMO, it's not offensive.
by Goose on
Nov 24, 2007 6:27 PM PST
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Not the hilter argument
by Librocrat on
Nov 24, 2007 7:46 PM PST
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This is exactly like the John Fitzgerald Page
I also do not think that there would be this much fuss about the morality of the issue if the blogger had posted a nice, tactful email from Conlin. Nobody would be saying "The blogger didn't have a right to show how nice and thoughtful Conlin is". Not sure if that's relavent, but I said it anyways. Snap.
by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on
Nov 24, 2007 8:34 PM PST
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A morals debate eh?
by Matthew on
Nov 24, 2007 8:46 PM PST
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Yeah, we're pretty awesome.
by Goose on
Nov 25, 2007 4:28 AM PST
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Prudence, not morality.
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Once you write something down, anyone can read it.
There is absolutely nothing that prevents me from reposting any letter, email, tty transcript, etc as I see fit, as the recipient. These arguments are not about morality at all but instead prudence as it exists for any public figure (see my part about branding below to get a better idea of how I view public figurehood).
I don't write down anything that could come back to haunt me. In online forums, I am anonymous, and therefore don't care what I write. I can write acording to how anonymous I am in that forum. Me and my (myspace or whatever)page are for certain people to see, and I keep them private for that reason. If I were a Jeff or Conlin or Crash, I am not just that person, I am also brand LL or that newspaper or whatever blog he's from.
I guess I'll put it in the way I know best. I was once employed by a call center. In that capacity, I was XXXX Company, taking calls. You, Crash, Conlin, and any other person working under a "brand" are that brand, in all correspondence relating to that brand.
If he made some assholish (but not overtly offensive, which this was not) remark in a public forum anonymously (or by stating he was not speaking in his capacity of XXXX Company journalist), and somehow it came out, the newspaper could say that it was on his time, and that he distanced himself from that brand. That's life when you work in a public capacity.
I just think you don't realize this because brand LL isn't big enough in your eyes to protect. You could ask the owner of SB (for example) how he feels on the subject, and I bet you would get an answer a lot in line with what I'm trying to say.
Jeff, you said that when a reader emails you, you are informal, yet polite (or something like that). But would you write a person something like "Stalin was the best thing to ever happen to Russia, and I'd follow him if he were alive today"? I don't think you would even make a Utah Miner joke to some random reader you hadn't "met" before (by postings or otherwise).
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Correspondence and public figures is all about trust. He writes a dick joke to his friend, he trusts the friend won't reprint it, either by implicitly trusing him, or by asking him not to reprint things he says. You can't have that sort of trust with some person that emailed you out of the blue to criticize you. Or at least, not if you have any common sense.
---
I don't believe any of this will change your mind about the morality, but I would argue that morality only comes into play when there is trust. If there is no trust, you have to use prudence as a public figure. Crash was talking to Conlin in Conlin's capacity as reporter for Newspaper X. Conlin made comments that he really shouldn't have in the capacity of his job. Crash posted them, as is his perogative, in the (supposed) intrest of showing him to be the asshole he was. Had Crash emailed Conlin personally, or either wrote that they wanted to take it to personal email, they would not be acting as surrogates of their brand, and that email being posted (if it would have been) would have had a much less dramatic effect.
In short, public figures, especially those that represent a brand, cannot simply say whatever they want, as a matter of prudence, not morality. You are looking at it from a personal perspective, but I think if you saw it from a LL as a business perspective, you'd see that you do actually censor yourself quite a bit in your capacity as "head of LL".
by Faux on
Nov 24, 2007 9:21 PM PST
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That was a thoughtful response.
I think we're all in the same boat in that regard. However, there's a point you don't really address, and that's what happens when Crash opens his inbox. Why publish the emails (which, for the record, is in itself a copyright violation)? What is the purpose of sharing something that you know wasn't intended as such? I understand that Crash was insulted, but if you're holding something that you know was meant as a personal correspondence and nothing more, how do you then present it to the world without feeling the slightest bit dirty?
If I'm Crash, and Conlin and I have the same email dialogue, here's what I do - I make the same post, printing the entirety of my message(s) to Conlin, and say that "rather than engage me in a mature, grown-up discussion, Conlin behaved in an unprofessional manner completely unbefitting of a man in his position." That sends the same message without my having to feel guilty about violating Conlin's privacy.
by Jeff on
Nov 25, 2007 12:40 AM PST
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Wisdom vs. morals
Your suggested course might be a wiser approach, but it does not follow that Crash violated some code of morality either. The key assumption you have is that Conlin could have and should have expected that the e-mail correspondance was private. Several of us here have been pointing out that Conlin would be flat out wrong to think that. His newspaper has placed him in a prominent public position, and has tasked him with the responsibility of not just writing columns, but answering reader comments as well. The e-mails he sent were part of his very public position and responsibility. That he chose to engage in the kind of argumentation he did--well, that's a matter of public interest as well.
by zugzwang on
Nov 26, 2007 11:13 AM PST
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And others of us have been pointing out
by Jeff on
Nov 26, 2007 11:46 AM PST
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100% agree
I understand the law may see it differently, but to me this is more than just a legal matter. There are many, many things that don't need to be aired in public, and this was probably one of them. It is not required that everything which upsets someone needs to be a public shitstorm.
by pdb on
Nov 26, 2007 12:42 PM PST
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Different jobs, different expectations
by zugzwang on
Nov 27, 2007 9:53 AM PST
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Yes, any of them *could* be made public.
by Jeff on
Nov 27, 2007 10:04 AM PST
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Conlin was closed-minded and juvenile
Making a Hitler reference does not make one an anti-semite.
Conlin's an ass, and a lousy columnist who probably doesn't warrant employment, but nothing he did here made that more true than it already was.
Crashburn Alley was totally in the wrong, here.
That said, note that many public figures explicitly state in their email signature that their remarks are not for redistribution. Will Carroll does this.
by Llewdor on
Nov 24, 2007 10:05 PM PST
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'Crashburn Alley was totally in the wrong, here'
Qualify that.
by Gomez on
Nov 24, 2007 10:39 PM PST
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I'm with Jeff
The consequences of widespread publication of private conversations would be sufficiently bad that we should all fear it. We can avoid it by not publishing private conversations.
by Llewdor on
Nov 26, 2007 9:12 AM PST
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You're still not explaining the reasoning why
by Gomez on
Nov 26, 2007 10:36 AM PST
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You're too kind
by zugzwang on
Nov 26, 2007 11:21 AM PST
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Yeah, I'm not trying to pick a fight with Evan
by Gomez on
Nov 26, 2007 12:13 PM PST
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Disagreeing hurts this team.
by Librocrat on
Nov 26, 2007 12:24 PM PST
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Great thread
That is all.
by Omerta on
Nov 25, 2007 1:53 AM PST
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Jeff
what happens when Crash opens his inbox. Why publish the emails (which, for the record, is in itself a copyright violation)?
No, it's not a copyright violation. He forfeits any rights to the E-mail message once he clicks "Send."
I have asked, in person, many people involved either with law (lawyers) or law enforcement (cops) and none of them said I was legally in the wrong in any way.
In fact, even if I had promised Conlin I wouldn't post our correspondence, I STILL have the right to post them.
Some of the legality of this stems from the USA PATRIOT Act, but I'm not sure how much.
"What is the purpose of sharing something that you know wasn't intended as such?"
A) You assume that the E-mail wasn't intended to be publicized.
B) You assume that I understood that the E-mail wasn't intended to be publicized.
C) As an employee representing his employer, Conlin has to ASSUME that the E-mail will be PUBLIC, not PRIVATE.
"I understand that Crash was insulted, but if you're holding something that you know was meant as a personal correspondence and nothing more,"
You're assuming, incorrectly.
"how do you then present it to the world without feeling the slightest bit dirty?"
It wasn't a private E-mail and I was never in the wrong.
Conlin's E-mail was listed right underneath his article on his employer's website.
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/sports/20071121_Bill_Conlin___Rollins_winning_numbers.html
Therefore, it is NOT a personal E-mail regardless of whether or not he uses it for personal reasons. That is a PROFESSIONAL E-mail account.
by CrashburnAlley on
Nov 25, 2007 3:06 AM PST
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Quotes
by CrashburnAlley on
Nov 25, 2007 3:07 AM PST
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It's sleepy time crash
by Librocrat on
Nov 25, 2007 3:41 AM PST
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It's 6 AM
by CrashburnAlley on
Nov 25, 2007 3:49 AM PST
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It's 4 here
by Librocrat on
Nov 25, 2007 4:07 AM PST
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Er
A) You assume that the E-mail wasn't intended to be publicized.
That seems like a pretty safe assumption.
B) You assume that I understood that the E-mail wasn't intended to be publicized.
Why would you ever assume that an email like that is intended to be viewed by the public?
C) As an employee representing his employer, Conlin has to ASSUME that the E-mail will be PUBLIC, not PRIVATE.
I don't believe this is true. I don't think the fact that Conlin wrote you back from his listed AOL account takes away his privacy. You clearly disagree.
by Jeff on
Nov 25, 2007 10:48 AM PST
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If C) is true
by Librocrat on
Nov 25, 2007 12:12 PM PST
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It doesn't matter?
Meaning, the PDN's CUSTOMERS contact their EMPLOYEE via that E-mail address, but it's still private?
With all due respect, that makes no logical sense.
by CrashburnAlley on
Nov 25, 2007 12:52 PM PST
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Do you or do you not believe
by Jeff on
Nov 25, 2007 1:19 PM PST
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It doesn't matter.
by CrashburnAlley on
Nov 25, 2007 2:24 PM PST
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Defending Crash
Secondly, columnists are public figures and have to accept that the way they behave in communication with their readers is subject to public scrutiny. For this reason I disagree with the notion that the e-mails sent by Conlin are "private" communications. Rather, I think it was not wrong by crash to publish these excerpts. And Conlin's expectations about whether the e-mails would be published does not matter for this reason in my view.
by vj on
Nov 25, 2007 2:28 PM PST
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While I think you have a point, Jeff
Leaving aside whether or not it's morally correct, I don't think anyone can villify bloggers for doing what is common practice in the MSM. The only reason some may attempt to do so, IMO, is because one of their own, another person in the press, is the one getting the short end of the stick this time.
by TheOptimist on
Nov 25, 2007 2:44 PM PST
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Not getting into the morality thing
Since college hockey isn't the most popular sport around here in Colorado (that's left to the broncos and the rockies when they make the playoffs), Chambers doesn't get many inches in the daily paper. Therefore, to provide more coverage, he has a blog on the Post's site.
I guess where I'm getting at is in some respects, I hope bloggers do start getting more respect by the mainstream journalistic media if only because those journalists (are forced to?) have blogs of their own.
Well that, and I'm a journalist myself as well as a friend of Jeff who thinks he does a good job. :-p
by Quiz23 on
Nov 26, 2007 3:02 PM PST
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