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Two Wrongs, No Rights, And Why Bloggers Still Struggle For Respect

This has become a pretty popular subject across the network, so I thought I might as well say my piece...

(Not directly related to baseball, so it's continued after the jump)

Star-divide

A few days ago, crappy Philadelphia Daily News columnist Bill Conlin wrote a crappy article about why Jimmy Rollins deserved to win the MVP. A Phillies blogger disagreed with the idea and sent Conlin an email, asking why Rollins was a better candidate than David Wright. The exchange that followed was inflammatory and less than eloquent, and the blogger decided to post it in full on his website. This has since attracted a lot of attention, and in no small part because of Conlin's Hitler reference, countless people have been taken aback and voiced their desire to see Conlin out of a job. Such behavior is completely inappropriate and offensive, they say, and Conlin should therefore be relieved of his duties.

They're sort of right. Had Conlin acted the way he did in a public forum, he'd almost have to be fired on the spot. But that's not what he did. He sent private (and horrible) emails to somebody who then decided to copy them word for word onto a public website without Conlin's consent. Emails that absolutely would have been written differently had Conlin known that they might get posted. Showing them to his readers is completely unethical on the blogger's part, a violation of the fundamental understanding that one's permission must be sought before his words are shared with those who weren't privy to the discussion. Anyone who fancies himself a bit of a writer ought to know better than to do what the blogger did. It's just irresponsible.

What's done is done, though, and now Conlin's going to come under relentless fire for saying what he said in a series of emails that never should've been brought to anyone's attention. A blogger with a cause can mobilize an awful lot of support, and there are few things people enjoy doing more than complaining about somebody else. Conlin and his superiors are going to be hearing about this for a long, long time.

All because of something the blogger had no right to post. Look, Bill Conlin is the quintessential crotchety old man, a loudmouthed, ignorant curmudgeon who hates everything that happened after the Soyuz program. He is not a good columnist, and he doesn't really deserve his job. At the same time, though, he doesn't deserve to lose his job over something like this, nor should he be severely punished. The day Conlin gets fired for being a dick in a private email is the day you get fired for telling a friend that your boss is stupid and fat. If people were penalized for making the occasional asshole remark, then no one would have a job. What matters is that you're courteous and professional when you need to be, and Conlin clearly didn't interpret this email exchange as one of those situations.

Don't give me the line about how Conlin should've known better than to say those things to a blogger. The blogger should've known better than to repeat them. If you don't like a guy, rip into him for his columns. Don't rip into him for something he said in private correspondence. That's amateurish behavior, and stuff like this is a big reason why bloggers with actual journalistic integrity still struggle to get the kind of respect they deserve. So thanks for setting us back, Bill B. of Crashburn Alley. I hope it was worth it.

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I almost got fired
For someone telling ME that he thought the boss was "ugly and fat" (in this case, incompetent).  He overheard the one dude moaning about it, and basically told me I was on his sh*t list, eventually firing me for saying a swear word in his presence that I didn't actually say.

I know that's unrelated, but I agree with you, so there isn't much else for me to say.  

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 24, 2007 1:50 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

At least I can rest easy
Knowing that Jeff will not repost any of the (many) compromising emails I may or may not have sent professing my true love for him...

Oh wait.

by Graham on Nov 24, 2007 1:55 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I understand the blogger was in the wrong
But I think Conlin can not be absolved of all Blame.  I mean, he had to know it was a retarded idea to even write that, he had to have SOME feeling that might get repeated somewhere especially when the guy he's writing to is someone who doesn't really like him or agree with him in any way.  So yes, the blogger was wrong to repost that and it does set back blogging.  

However, anyone with half a brain would know not to send that e-mail to someone who can publish something to a reasonably sized audience.  He shouldn't get fired over this (Maybe over the Jimmy Rollins article though, because that was terrible), or not even necessarily punished, but I do think that it will and SHOULD stick with him and his legacy.  When you think there might be even a 1% chance that your words might get reposted somewhere, and those words could get you fired then you should think first and not send that e-mail.

I agree what the blogger did was retarded and hurts our reputation and credibility.  He shouldn't have done it because it was juvenille to "tell" on Conlin.  But Conlin doesn't get off free either.  His job shouldn't be lost for this, but his credibility is damaged and for good reason.  That's what he deserves, and it already happened.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Nov 24, 2007 2:13 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Hear hear
What the blogger did was blatantly unethical. That said, the journalist should have known what he was going into.

Did Conlin look at crashburnalley.com before his exchange with the blogger? If so, then he should have been aware that the website's author is pretty immature. Having that in mind, Conlin should have chosen his words much more carefully. Especially considering that he picked lousy words to use in the first place.

Just because the blogger had no right to do what he did doesn't mean that Conlin should not have expected it. He's in the public eye, and he should have seen this coming.

by Katal LM on Nov 24, 2007 8:25 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

To summarize
Crashburnalley was in the wrong.

Conlin was even moreso.

by Katal LM on Nov 24, 2007 8:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nice post Jeff...
Interesting reading material.  Conlin's a terrible writer.

For a more reasoned defense of Rollins winning the MVP check out this post by Tangotiger.

It's not entirely convincing but at least he backs it up with numbers and what not.

by Patrick517 on Nov 24, 2007 2:27 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Wait, what?
Rollins is +2 wins with the glove now?

by Graham on Nov 24, 2007 2:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure really...
but he's using his own fans-grade-the-defense study results.

by Patrick517 on Nov 24, 2007 6:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Jeff, a question
Do you believe that it is reasonable to write, even in private correspondence, especially to someone you don't know, while performing your job, over the top insults?

Let's say this wasn't an email. Rather just actual mail typed out onto a real piece of paper.

If it was actual mail, would the recipient be justified in complaining about Conlin's response? Or not?

visiting A's fan.

by rfloh on Nov 24, 2007 2:31 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I absolutely do not think it's reasonable.
I'd never do that, and were I to receive such an email or letter, I'd be offended. However, at the same time I definitely wouldn't air my grievances to the general public. And if the guy writing to me said something way over the top or personally threatening, I'd take it up with his boss, not my readers.

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 2:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But wouldn't the result be the same?
Either way, whether complaining privately or publicly, the offender is not going to be happy. Either way, those sympathetic to the offender are not going to be happy.
visiting A's fan.

by rfloh on Nov 24, 2007 7:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

In one situation
the public is going to be all over the offender. In the other, it won't. That makes a pretty big difference.

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 3:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's classless by all parties involved, agreed
but I think the blogger has every legal right to republish them w/o Conlin's consent. Not sure how it works exactly with e-mail.

Not that either party acted in the right, as Jeff says in the title, but I'm thinking Conlin is "more" in the wrong.

by Matthew on Nov 24, 2007 2:40 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Legally, I'm pretty sure he's in the clear.
But that doesn't make it the right thing to do in this kind of situation.

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 2:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder....
Just how much of this has to do with the fact that its Philly. Oddest fans in the world, in my experience (aside from Euro sports fans). Didn't they boo Santa and throw snowballs at him? Or was it batteries?

by TheEmrys on Nov 24, 2007 6:00 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Batteries in snowballs
Or so the myth goes.
visiting A's fan.

by rfloh on Nov 24, 2007 6:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Philly Fans
Ah, don't lump me in with those cretins. As hard as it may be to believe, I've never booed Santa Claus (possibly because I wasn't born at the time that incident occurred -- back in the 1960's, I believe).

I've never thrown a battery at someone, either.

I did, however, stand up and applaud Barry Bonds in 2006 when he hit his 713th HR off of Jon Lieber, both before, during, and after his at-bat, when everyone else was booing.

I'm not your typical Philly fan, and I often detest the behavior of those fans who do represent Philadelphia.

by CrashburnAlley on Nov 24, 2007 6:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Legal and Moral Aspects
Jeff, as the author of the E-mails you're citing, I can tell you that my intent was never to be inflammatory. In fact, when I said that I wasn't going to bash him, I was being sympathetic. And I never planned on airing our E-mails to the public until he acted immaturely. Even then, I only get a modicum of hits and didn't expect the firestorm that ensued following his Hitler comment. So, you've misinterpreted just about everything there is to misinterpret, but I can't fault you for that. It's hard to interpret tone through mere words on a screen oftentimes.

As for the E-mails, you sounded like you were getting into morals. The legal aspect of it was brought up and is correct: I have the legal right to post any E-mail I receive. Once they click "Send," I essentially get all intellectual rights to the contents of that E-mail. As to whether or not that is right, I guess that's up to each individual. You are not wrong for believing that my actions hinge on immoral, and I am not wrong for believing the opposite. So it goes with moral relativism.

by CrashburnAlley on Nov 24, 2007 6:45 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Morals aside for a second
Don't you think publishing emails without permission will have a negative effect on -everyone else's- possible future correspondance with journalists and whatnot?

The massive furor this seems to have stirred up might get proffesionals to tread a bit more carefully in their communications with the blogs, or they might go for the efficient solution and hit 'delete email' rather than get drawn into anything (NB: I'm aware you were being civilised and calm throughout that chain of emails, and that Conlin was the one acting like a lunatic).

Do you not perceive this as having a negative effect on mainstream/blog relations? If so, was getting Conlin into what will presumably be lots of trouble worth the future hostility bloggers may receive from sports journalists as a result? I understand you have every right to post whatever ends up in your inbox, but it just seems like a poor strategic move to me.

by Graham on Nov 24, 2007 7:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't mean to imply that you were inflammatory
that was pretty much all Conlin. He acted like a total dick. What I disagree with is the publishing of those emails on a public website. I understand that legally speaking, you have the right to do what you want with private communications, but didn't you think for one second that showing Conlin's Hitler comment to the world might cause a total shitstorm?

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 12:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So you have no problem
with others sharing your private e-mails without your permission?

by Aaron on Nov 24, 2007 3:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Devil's Advocate
When you're emailing people using your office email address, do you call them "bitch"? What if you're a member of the press, whose job it is to write about truth and expose, say, people who mistreat their customers. It's not exactly a private email when you are emailing someone back from your public work email. And it's not like he was confessing something embarrassing to a close friend.  
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 24, 2007 3:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's not true.
All email SHOULD be private, but it isn't.  Employers monitor their own employee's use of work email all the time.  It's almost common practice now in tech companies.  
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 24, 2007 3:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Conlin has an AOL email address
That's not a work email. (What it is is another clear sign that holy crap Bill Conlin is old)

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 3:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ha
Well, that's true.  

All I read was that it was the email address posted next to his name on the Philadelphia's news website.  Beyond that, I didn't look into it.

Separate but related, though: If I got an email from Bush or Cheney, that used... say, an anti-semetic slur, I would post it in a second and not regret it at all.  Whether it came from the_decider@yahoo.com, or POTUS@whitehouse.org

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 24, 2007 3:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That doesn't make it the right thing to do.
And nothing Conlin said could be construed as anti-Semitic.

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 3:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It wasn't supposed to be
analogous to the situation.  Only a statement about a blurred line.  

Conlin's statements don't really bother me that much, other than he sounds like a complete idiot.

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 24, 2007 3:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Let's say that's true for a moment
in this particular situation, what makes it okay to reprint the emails?

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 3:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The uncalled for, repeated slander
from a man whose job it is to write for the local print media in a major city, and is thus expected to behave and act responsibly.

This was a man going way out of bounds to slander a reader who went out of his way to write him with thoughtful criticism of a piece he wrote.  If the blogger in question says nothing, then in the public conscience, this never happened.  Is that a good thing?

by Gomez on Nov 24, 2007 5:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're tacitly validating Conlin's behavior
He receives no recourse for his actions.

by Gomez on Nov 24, 2007 6:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

They weren't that bad.
He was a dick. Lots of people are dicks.

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 6:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Go to his boss
Conlin gets fired with no clash between the blogs and the mainstream media. Everyone wins, except Conlin, but that's ok because he's an assdolphin.

by Graham on Nov 24, 2007 5:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Then
You have to explain to the public why he was canned.  The act of punishing him seems like a non-sequitur without the evidence.

... if he is punished at all.  What if the paper decides to cover it up and blow the blogger in question off?  Then it basically never happened.

by Gomez on Nov 24, 2007 6:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Then Conlin gets another job
as if nothing had happened.  People have no idea the guy is a belligerent, childish asshat to dissenters, and in effect, when all is said and done his actions and beliefs are not given their proper due.  That sits about as well with me as the invasion of privacy does with you.

I see the disconnect between our POVs.  I admit I'm lacking the words that would close it at this point.  I see the merit in your argument, though.  I'm not going to deny it's a dicey moral ground.  E-mail and blogs are still relatively new, and the etiquette w/r/t their usage is still being hashed out.

by Gomez on Nov 24, 2007 6:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, people know that Conlin is belligerent.
He's had that reputation for a while. But anyway:

Bill Conlin's job is to write articles. Everyone would obviously love for him to be more understanding of other viewpoints, but he's not, and to the best of my knowledge he never has been. How does his acting like an asshole to a reader affect his job performance? And if you're reading one of his articles, why should it make any difference to you whether or not he's an abrasive son of a bitch?

So as far as "people have no idea the guy is a belligerent, childish asshat to dissenters" is concerned, I don't see why that matters.

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 6:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure
it's ever okay for a newswriter to call someone a bitch.  The etiquette line isn't clear, but it's there.

There comes a point where some moral codes override others, and I think that's where the disconnect comes in: is there a point when one's actions preclude the right to privacy in a given medium?

by Gomez on Nov 24, 2007 6:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah
I suppose the crux of the main disagreement is the location of that point. I don't think this particular exchange crossed the line, but clearly a lot of other people do.

I guess I'm just not real fond of things I perceive as intrusions of privacy.

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 7:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Funny
So you don't support warrantless wiretapping, but you support the government's decision to keep their private emails about it a secret, yeah? That'd be too conflicting for me, I think.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 24, 2007 7:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

re: What?
I think he's trying to make a very strained political analogy.

by Aaron on Nov 24, 2007 8:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bingo
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 24, 2007 8:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to prove a point, though
Just to state an observation.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 24, 2007 8:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to jump on the subthread
but your hypothetical depicts rightfully illegal behavior. This isn't close to that.

by Matthew on Nov 24, 2007 8:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You may be right.
It was just my observation. I don't have any talking points. I didn't think anyone was going to respond, either.

Although they claim it's not illegal... hmm...

Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 24, 2007 8:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Fine.
There may be cases where violating someones privacy is appropriate, but you should give very good justification for doing so rather than simply dismissively waving a hand and saying "everyones got different morals".

by Aaron on Nov 24, 2007 4:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That I can agree with.
Had the blogger written his reasons for posting the emails (like, if he had been incredibly offended, which by his own admission he had not been), then he would have at least provided his own justification, even if .  He posted them just to show people.  
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 24, 2007 4:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It doesnt matter what server the e-mail comes from
or where it was typed. E-mail is private unless the sender says otherwise. With the exception of direct threats, it doesn't matter how unprofessional the message is, you shouldn't publish it.

by Aaron on Nov 24, 2007 3:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Worth it?
I really have no control over whether or not journalists in the future will communicate with bloggers. In the big picture, this is but a blip on the radar. I really don't see this Conlin issue as anything but the week's (or even just the day's) controversy.

Perhaps you're more far-sighted than I am, and this could be the trend among journalists in the future.

However, do all journalists say that the recipient(s) of their message deserve(s) to be silenced or killed, as Conlin implied with this Hitler comments? I think most journalists are able to communicate rationally and maturely to their E-mails, and if not, shame on them.

by CrashburnAlley on Nov 24, 2007 7:35 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Don't get me wrong
Conlin was completely and utterly out of line in saying to you what he did, and he should have known better. But do you really believe this incident isn't going to be in the back of people's minds when a similar situation pops up? As you said, most journalists are able to communicate rationally, but people take offence to everything these days...

If I were a journalist, my way of stopping this sort of thing would be to not respond to emails like yours at all rather than risk saying something that might be construed as offensive. I could, of course, be totally off base and nothing might come of this at all.

by Graham on Nov 24, 2007 8:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Scared?
I posted a clarification article on my blog that included your question.

http://crashburnalley.com/?p=49

What I said about that:

"If journalists cannot communicate with E-mailers without insinuating that they are worthy of having no freedom of speech and/or worthy of being killed, then that falls on the journalists.

I guess the journalists could be hesitant to respond to E-mailers for anything that might get taken out of context and blown out of proportion, but then again, they can just comb over their E-mails and make sure they were professional, factual, and rational.

It's the journalists' loss -- not the readers' -- if they don't respond to E-mails. When they respond, they are representing the publication they work for, and thus, are advertising in a sense. A good rapport with a reader increases the chance that they will purchase the publication in the future, and a bad rapport decreases that chance. With most print publications hurting, behavior like Conlin's only sets himself and his employer(s) back."

by CrashburnAlley on Nov 24, 2007 8:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

They could just comb it over
But then again, I consider most people to be fundamentally lazy, and will thus likely take the easy way out (am I being too much of a cynic here?).

I guess what this little debate comes down to is whether you consider relations with the mainstream press to be particularly important. Honestly, I think that proffesional journalists can offer us a lot more than we can them (assuming they aren't nutcases). I know the M's blogs have very good relationships with some of the local beat writers, Athletics Nation as well with theirs, and that having that network in place is a very useful tool.

Obviously, the whole Conlin thing won't damage any relationship already in place, but it might make establishing future ones more difficult. Then again, it might not. But we all have our own opinions :).

by Graham on Nov 24, 2007 8:22 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

relations won't be effected
Graham -

I share your concerns, but in this case I don't think it will hurt or hinder relations.  

MSM who are interested in having relationships with bloggers or their readers in general aren't the ones who would send responses like Conlin's.  

Essentially the Conlin types are lost causes anyways.  So sure, those in Conlin's camp might hit delete instead of responding, but is that a great loss at that point?

Do you really think that the types of writers who would write the things that Conlin did could be "won over"?

by billfer on Nov 24, 2007 9:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I do... sort of
There are surely plenty of people who dislike blogs not out of malice but out of ignorance, and just because they're curmudgeoenly old men doesn't mean they're unreasonable. Conlin's 'camp' reacts the way it does towards blogs and statistical analysis because they're traditionalists and they don't really understand what it is we do.

I believe that at least some of them might be won over by well thought out debate - which incidentally is what the Crashburn Alley guy was attempting to engage Mr. Conlin in. Publishing the emails will just lead to more friction on both sides, however, and that mutual aggression is precisely why Conlin behaved the way he did in the first place*.

Why fan the flames? Even Conlin himself changed his position on Bert Blyleven's HoF-worthiness, apparently as the result of an email exchange from a reader, so it's hard for me to paint his entire camp as irredeemable.

*That and the fact that he's got all the mental prowess of a toothbrush.

by Graham on Nov 24, 2007 9:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Conlin
I didn't publish the E-mails until after Conlin made the Hitler comment. So his words weren't based on the knowledge that I was making his words public.

by CrashburnAlley on Nov 24, 2007 10:37 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe you're right
You may be right, I'm just not as optimistic - but I'm probably colored by the Chris McCosky article in Detroit.  Numerous well reasoned, non-combative emails were sent to McCosky by various bloggers (and I'm sure a number of hate filled name calling emails were sent as well), seeking dialogue.  McCosky didn't reply to any of them to the best of my knowledge.

I just view it as there are those receptive to blogs, some who don't really know what to think, and those who are against it.  

I don't really know what those on the fence would make of it

by billfer on Nov 24, 2007 1:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The very first email
identified the fact that it was a blogger talking.    It not like they were drunk at a Christmas party.  Conlin knew full well who he was talking to.

For a journalist, sports fans -- and even more so sports communities -- are your customer.  You can't talk to the customer like that and expect them to not tell their friends.

by oneiric232 on Nov 24, 2007 8:09 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I can't agree with that
If he knew what he was doing he'd never have said the absurd things he did - he's just an idiot who doesn't know any better.

by Graham on Nov 24, 2007 8:25 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

if a blogger asked a public service worker
whether or not they liked their job and they replied, "sure - I do half a days work for a full days pay" - and that were posted online, they would surely be fired.  

Is being the idiot who should have known better really an adequate explanation for horrible judgment?

"back in the day, Reggie Jackson would have called that a 'tits high' pitch" - Dave Henderson
the log

by OlyOle on Nov 24, 2007 9:28 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

The only problem I have
is when you post stuff like that, you are kinda looking to get somebody fired.  If that is your motivation then I think that is a little heartless.  I understand being surprised by the responses and offended but is it really worth getting somebody fired.  There were other paths that did not involve going public with all of it that probably would have been better for all parties.  Maybe when the emails were posted, the repercussions were not considered.  I'm not sure if that is better or worse.

by Edgar for Pres on Nov 24, 2007 11:00 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

after reading that
I would definitely fire that guy, but not because of the Hitler comment, just because he obviously has no fucking clue about how baseball works and is offended and threatened by advancement when it is his job to at least make an attempt understand it.

But really, what he said wasn't that horrific, he clearly says the only good thing about Hitler's time on earth, he wasn't being pro-Hitler. For someone to be offended by anything other then his rudeness is just an over reaction on their part. Social censorship through political correctness once again going too far

Don't listen to their lies, Bill! Look at the sparkly ERA! Sparkly sparkly! - McCovey Chronicles

by Trenchtown2 on Nov 24, 2007 12:07 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I'll be honest
I wasn't offended by Conlin's Hitler remark. It was clearly a retarded thing to say, but we've all made off-color remarks to someone or another, and I'm sure Conlin doesn't really think that bloggers should be exterminated. It was just something he said for effect when he was in an angry mood. But that's not how it's going to be interpreted, and now he's going to catch all kinds of fire for (A) something he doesn't really believe, and (B) something he absolutely wouldn't have said had he known it would be shown to a wider audience.

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 12:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I forget what they called it
but the Economist made reference once to a 'law' that as an online discussion grows longer and more heated, the chance of Hitler coming up in it approaches one. The corrolary, IIRC, is that whoever it is that brings him up is automatically wrong.

by Mere Tantalisers on Nov 24, 2007 12:18 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Godwin's Law
that's what it was

by Mere Tantalisers on Nov 24, 2007 12:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

he was an attorney
Don't listen to their lies, Bill! Look at the sparkly ERA! Sparkly sparkly! - McCovey Chronicles

by Trenchtown2 on Nov 24, 2007 1:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Allow me to re-state something here:
I believe both Conlin and the blogger were in the wrong. What Conlin did was totally stupid, and I am in no way sympathetic to his position. However, while it's clear why what Conlin did was dumb, barely any attention has been paid to the question of whether or not it's all right to post private emails on a blog, which triggered this post.

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 12:44 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Then I guess we're agreed.
There was a crappy Mariner columnists a few years back who became kind of famous for his rude, barely comprehensible emails. To the best of my knowledge, no blogger ever posted the content of one of these for his readers. That columnist was later fired for being bad at his job. It was nice.

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 12:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why did they decide
to stop that practice of firing columnists bad of their job?
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 24, 2007 1:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I never e-mailed him
but I read some of that columnist's (is there a reason we're not naming him?) e-mails on Sportspot.

Oh, the days of Sportspot...

by Katal LM on Nov 24, 2007 4:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Um, Hai.
Precisely what Mariners Morsels was founded upon...

Heh

"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Nov 24, 2007 7:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I fail
although those weren't really the same kinds of emails from Finnigan that I was talking about.

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 7:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
My e-mail discourse was somewhat unique in this situation.  Regarding this exact same article, Finnegan responded to other folks, infamously, not so nicely.  I believe this e-mail conversation I posted was actually one of the nicer ones -- evidently he wrote a lot of less-nice things to other folks around this same article we were discussing.  

It's funny that I was actually trying to DEFEND Finnegan back then.  

"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Nov 24, 2007 8:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Haha, oh yeah. Those.
Yeah, Finnegan was a bit terse but way more cordial than Conlin there.

by Gomez on Nov 24, 2007 8:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it all depends
on the content of the private e-mail. If he hadn't said something job threatening and was just being a jerk, I don't think it would matter, I don't think I would have given a second thought to posting the e-mails, which is what seems to be what Crash was thinking. I don't think the fact that this could hurt the writers career ever crossed his mind. That being said, results matter more then intent so the short answer is I don't know whether I think posting private e-mails is wrong, but I do know that posting private celebrity sex tapes is right, and thats what matters
Don't listen to their lies, Bill! Look at the sparkly ERA! Sparkly sparkly! - McCovey Chronicles

by Trenchtown2 on Nov 24, 2007 12:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well said, Jeff.
Those emails should not have been published without permission.

by ryanhealy on Nov 24, 2007 1:13 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I've totally seen this before
on other blogs elsewhere, political blogs, general blogs... where personal e-mail correspondence gets posted publically with the intention of outing and embarrassing the other party, who clearly figured the correspondence was under the table and thus took off the filters.

It's a dicey moral ground.  But I'm a nihilist when it comes to moral piety, and willing to be a vigilante when you cross the line, regardless of whether such vigilance is the 'right thing to do.'  The way I see it, the moment you decide the rules of etiquette don't apply in correspondence, then citing those same rules as a reason to keep private such correspondence is hypocrisy and I'm willing to ignore said rules if I see it fit.

Now as an aside, personally, I try to always write personal correspondence with a general respect, and refrain from the sort of nastiness you wouldn't dare use in public, as if you were personally speaking with a professional colleague or a friend I respect.

If you ask me to keep our correspondence off the record and you're a respected friend or colleague, I will (in fact, this situation came up in the past week... long story short, any blogging I did on a personal matter among friends came to a quick halt and our discussion was never aired).

However, I'm not sure I could say the same if you were, say, a newswriter sending me angry and abusive messages, especially if it goes against your established image with the general public.  I want to say I wouldn't do the same as this blogger did... but I'm not so sure.  It would depend on the circumstances, what you were trying to pull, if you thought that you could leverage your position into being abusive in private correspondence and get away with it out of intimidation, etc.

I would maybe take a more morally pious approach if the blogger in question was being excessive.  I'm sure Geoff Baker or even Bob Finnigan would never talk back to a critical reader like this.  But really, he wasn't, yet Conlin fired back with the usual arrogant, almost childish crackbacks that journalists reserve for bloggers.  I have no sympathy for Conlin after little gems like the following:

Know what, pal? Bash this. . .Tell your bloggers, my career against theirs. . .

One question: When a Mets team chokes in a forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it make a gagging sound? Next time bring more to the table than wishful fan numbers that bear no semblance to reality. I wonder how it feels to be the Phillies bitch

What a consummate professional.  He totally did not deserve the racks for this.

...

Morally, you can debate in a vacuum the merits of airing private correspondence, but either way, on a separate note, Conlin should have conducted himself with more professionalism.  What the blogger did doesn't have the impact it did if Conlin hadn't been such an unprofessional, childish jerk in correspondence.  He deserves to lose his job for representing his paper so poorly.

by Gomez on Nov 24, 2007 1:53 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Stuffed Crust pizza
I just saw an ad for stuffed crust pizza.  On a related note, I now know what's for dinner.

/off-topic comment

by andrewgolfsalot on Nov 24, 2007 2:08 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I'm not even going to
click on the link to that blog because I don't want that blogger to brag about how many hits his site is getting.
(I take your word on how things went down).

Sure the columnist should've known better, and maybe he's a poor writer (I'm not going to the article's link either btw) but as Jeff said, posting what the other party thought was private correspondance in public is classless, period.

by Tom C on Nov 24, 2007 3:20 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I agree
that it was wrong to publicize the private email correspondence, but why are bloggers aiming for respect from these people, anyway? If this were my blog, the last thing I would be 'struggling' for would be respect from the mainstream media.

by naviomelo on Nov 24, 2007 4:59 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

The media is actually useful
I know it pains people to hear it, but they have tools which the blogs don't have access to. Not all sportswriters are as tactless and moronic as Mr. Conlin, either - look at what Geoff Baker's done with the Times this year, and his relationship with the local blogosphere.

by Graham on Nov 24, 2007 5:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure, they're useful.
I think we can all agree on that. Why is any blogger's goal love and adulation from the mainstream press? Bloggers, especially sports bloggers, have far more insightful points to make and subjects to talk about than anyone in the mainstream press.

Baker's been an improvement over the past fluff we've had in the papers, but are you more excited to read his columns than a new post on one of your favorite M's blogs? People in the mainstream media are certainly not there because they're the best at what they're supposed to do, in my opinion.

by naviomelo on Nov 24, 2007 10:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Enh
I'm not saying that a blogger's goal should be love and adulation from the maintsteam guys, but they really should recognise that the latter are a resource to be preserved and tapped into to make their own writing better.

by Graham on Nov 25, 2007 1:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's legal
You can debate the morality of it until you turn blue in the face, but neither your morals nor anyone else's are "right."

If you think my posting of our E-mail correspondence was wrong, you have every right to believe that.

Legally, I have every right to post our E-mail correspondence. Once he hits "Send," he loses all rights to the contents of his E-mail. The only way I wouldn't have rights to the contents is if I access the E-mail message without his permission (i.e. hacking into his E-mail account or something).

I was not practically in the wrong. To some, I was subjectively in the wrong, but there's no correct assumption on that front.

by CrashburnAlley on Nov 24, 2007 4:59 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

True. But aren't you pretty much sinking to his
level by posting those emails? If Conlin is being an unprofessional jackass(and he is), then what you did isn't very professional either.

The point of all of this is that bloggers need to be given some respect and due by these people. This whole incident is not helping that cause in any way.

These pretzels....are making me thirsty!

by Goose on Nov 24, 2007 5:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's silly
Laws are created based upon a moral code.  They are there because a bunch of people said "this is wrong, and there should be punishments for doing it."  Claiming moral reletavism invalidates the entire concept of law.

Now, you are correct in that strictly by the definition of the law, you did nothing wrong.  But it was still a dick move, because it's following the letter of the law, not the spirit.  The logical extension of your argument is that no discourse, aside from face to face in a soundproof room, is private.  Everything is up for grabs, and can be exploited for gain.  Let the writer beware, as it were.  And who wants to live in that world?

Hard work never killed nobody, but I won't take my chances.

by JAH on Nov 24, 2007 5:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This kinda bothers me
'but neither your morals nor anyone else's are "right."'

Where does that argument lead? Can people do whatever they like as long as they're acting within the law, since they don't have to have the same morals as everyone else. To take it to the extreme, would it be ok to trick someone into giving up their life savings, as long as you acted within the law the whole time? There is an overall cultural morality as well as an individual one - this determines acceptable behavior, and is indeed the basis of the legal system. People who don't stick within societal norms are prosecuted/cast out.

I don't like the morality angle, anyway, so moving swiftly on...

I still think this is a matter of politics and blogger-MSM relations (and I'm pretty sure Jeff does too, although he's weighting the moral side higher than me since I don't have any to speak of). You might claim not to be practically in the wrong, and if this uproar dies down without much happening, you'll be right. However... in terms of possible consequences - I'm fairly sure you didn't think much about them since you're so surprised about the controversy this has stirred up - I'm not at all convinced hitting 'post' was a wise idea. It's not just a morality thing :)

I'm not attacking you or anything; I do the exact same thing all the time (which does lead so some lovely flamewars on this blog), although my shitstorms tend to be smaller in scale and end with people calling me a bastard.

by Graham on Nov 24, 2007 5:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I believe the legal term is
malum in se. Bu the idea that everyone's morals are equally worthy is silly. As you say, Graham, taken to the logical extreme moral relativism would lead to an ugly society.

by Mere Tantalisers on Nov 24, 2007 6:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He represents his newspaper badly
I used to write for newspapers, and I can tell you how I expect newspapers approach this issue (an approach I endorse): The dialog with readers is at least a semi-public matter. You represent your newspaper when you respond by e-mail. In no way is it just you and the reader. If you write garbagey, disrespectful replies -- even to inflammatory complaints -- you are representing your newspaper in that regard.

Newspapers, in turn, are in part a kind of public trust, and not just any sort of private enterprise. If they have any ethics they act on a certain standard of thoughtful engagement with their community. If they (or their writers) start spewing garbage at their readers in correspondence, there is no reason to believe that is a private matter.

In other words, at the papers I worked at Conlin's ass would be fired by now -- not just because of the Hitler garbage, but also because he should understand that you get no private, protected communications with readers. Anything you write to a reader, you should be willing to have published.

And from Graham's perspective, if newspapers (or their writers) start treating readers with gross disrespect, the reader should make that public. Even as an ex-reporter I have no problem with that idea.

Finally, let me give you a comparison. I'm a public school teacher. If I wrote something similar to the parent of a student, would it be wrong for that parent to make that correspondence public? I don't think so. It would be foolish of me to expect otherwise.

by Andy James on Nov 24, 2007 5:12 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I think that's right...
A journalist has an obligation to represent his (in this case) newspaper appropriately in any exchange with a reader. This columnist did not. There should be some punishment -- an apology for the intemperate remarks would be an excellent start.

I don't exactly understand Jeff's position on the blogger. Conlin was essentially answering another journalist's question about his column... bloggers are journalists. He didn't say his comments were private or off the record, at least not that I saw.  Therefore, they are fair game. That's how Conlin himself operates, I'm sure.  

rightly, in every age it is assumed we are witnessing the disappearance of the last traces of paradise... Cioran

by toonprivate on Nov 24, 2007 5:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You shouldn't have to assume
that all emails are public unless otherwise specified. I believe it's the opposite of that.

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 5:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe the question is
Would Conlin have written about it if, say, David Wright emailed him and called him a bitch.  If Conlin would have, I don't know if there is a moral issue.  If not, and Conlin would have taken the "high road" then it is an issue.  Because he is a journalist, I think he actually may have, in which case he also doesn't believe that private emails should remain private out of respect as long as he believes there is reason to post them.  But that's questionable, and I'm only arguing both sides because the responses interest me.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 24, 2007 5:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not all e-mails are the same
It's a mistake to say that if it's OK to publish Conlin's e-mail, all e-mails are fair game.  Context is very important.  This isn't an informal communication between two acquaintances.  This is an exchange between a columnist and a thoughtful reader about the columnist's work, comments that were sent at the invitation of the columnist's newspaper, which pointedly includes the columnist's e-mail address as part of his column.  The newspaper employs Conlin not only to write columns, but to respond appropriately to reader comments.  When Conlin was writing this stuff, he wasn't just some guy at the bar, he was an employee of a major newspaper doing his job.  I hardly see that as a private e-mail.

by zugzwang on Nov 25, 2007 12:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Right
Thank you. That's what I was trying to say (just not as well) ...  Conlin was acting as an employee by responding to a reader.  He can have email exchanges that I DO think are private and shouldn't be published. But the context of this exchange is job related.  
rightly, in every age it is assumed we are witnessing the disappearance of the last traces of paradise... Cioran

by toonprivate on Nov 25, 2007 10:39 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oops
Graham? I meant Bill.

by Andy James on Nov 24, 2007 5:16 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Andy James
Well put. I've asked quite a few people I know personally who either are directly involved with law and/or law enforcement (lawyers, cops, etc.) or have at least studied it extensively, and no one I talked to said it was illegal. Immoral, maybe, but not illegal.

by CrashburnAlley on Nov 24, 2007 5:16 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I don't think anyone here is arguing legality
I think we're only discussing the morals of it.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 24, 2007 5:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Email is suddenly confidential by default?
I'm with Gomez and Crashburn Alley on this one.

Moreover, since when is something you email to somebody subject to the expectation of confidentiality by default?  Especially if you're emailing from an address from an organization with a  public voice?

It's one thing if a friend betrays the confidence of a personal email from another friend, because the relationship implies a certain level of confidence.    But a columnist to a reader?  There's no confidence, even an implicit one, to betray.

by poorartists on Nov 24, 2007 5:40 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Paper mail is confidential, so email should be as
well.
These pretzels....are making me thirsty!

by Goose on Nov 24, 2007 5:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't agree with that.
Unless there's some sort of personal threat, I don't think it's ever okay to share a private communication with an outside party without requesting consent.

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 5:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
we probably just disagree on this point. I don't think Conlin should be punished (or published) if he writes an old college buddy and swaps dirty jokes. That's his business and is private.

If you're a columnist and you reply to a reader, however, that is not private. It's part of the dialog between the newspaper and its readers. I expect most newspapers feel that way as well, and in this I would agree with them.

Let's take another test case. Suppose you're Jewish, you write to the editor protesting coverage of, say, the Palestinians. Suppose the editor writes back: "Who cares about the opinion of a Jew like you anyway?"

I, for one, would make that exchange public. Wouldn't you?

by Andy James on Nov 24, 2007 6:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Just because you happen to be a columnist
and you just happen to be emailing a reader of your column, doesn't change the fact that the email itself is not a public forum.
These pretzels....are making me thirsty!

by Goose on Nov 24, 2007 6:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No.
But I'd probably take it to his superior.

When I reply to reader emails, I'm courteous, but I'm also generally a lot less formal, because I assume that it's only going to be read by the guy on the other end. Do you think Conlin would've written what he did if he thought his emails would be posted online?

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 6:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe he should've thought of that
before writing what he did.

Why in his right mind would he believe that acting that way would have no recourse?

by Gomez on Nov 24, 2007 6:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I imagine Conlin assumed that the blogger
would have more integrity than to re-post private emails online. Conlin was wrong.

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 6:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But you represent only yourself.
Columnists and reporters represent their newspaper, and the newspaper is a public entity. In practical terms, that means that a columnist or reporter should never hit "send" on something they wouldn't be willing to see in public. I don't think this is a bad thing. I think newspaper writers should hold to that standard in all their communications.

by Andy James on Nov 24, 2007 6:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not in communications with readers.
They should have all the same privacy as anyone else in all other areas. But in replying to readers, no.

by Andy James on Nov 24, 2007 6:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the rules resemble those of a phone convo
except the conversation's transcript is in text and thus easily replicated.

Here's the thing... I recall seeing e-mail correspondence reposted on blogs, and usually without any permission, formal or informal... though granted the correspondence is usually far less malicious.  If I can dig up some examples, I will try and link them.

This is quite the interesting topic, the ethos behind e-mail correspondence and reposting thereof, certainly a topic worth thinking about.

by Gomez on Nov 24, 2007 6:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well
it doesn't really matter to me how often it's done. Lots of people re-post entire subscription-only articles, too. That doesn't make it right.

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 6:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Uh ohs
New LL rule banning reposting of article text?

by Gomez on Nov 24, 2007 6:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Only when it's entire articles.
Snippets are fine. This rule has been around for a while, and we haven't had any offenders in a long time.

by Jeff on Nov 24, 2007 7:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

As far as the Hitler comment goes.
I don't think he should be punished for that per say. Ridiculed and laughed at sure, but punished? Nah.

He Godwinned the email. Even on noted flame wars sites like Fark, if you godwin the argument, everybody laughs at you. It's lazy and unintelligent. But IMO, it's not offensive.

These pretzels....are making me thirsty!

by Goose on Nov 24, 2007 6:27 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Not the hilter argument
that's just a poor analogy, you're right.  Calling him a bitch, though, is where I think he may have crossed the line.  Not like I care about that word, but that's the point that he showed a complete lack of respect for the recipient.  It goes back to the argument of whether or not there is an individual trust or respect.  Once this one person sent an email to a reader/unknown individual, and called him a bitch, there was no longer any mutual respect.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 24, 2007 7:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is exactly like the John Fitzgerald Page
situation. My belief is that both sides benefit. The complainer gets the satisfaction of letting the world know what a douche the other person is. The douche gets more publicity. Conlin, like Page, now has considerable more fame/infamy than he had before this article was published.

I also do not think that there would be this much fuss about the morality of the issue if the blogger had posted a nice, tactful email from Conlin. Nobody would be saying "The blogger didn't have a right to show how nice and thoughtful Conlin is". Not sure if that's relavent, but I said it anyways. Snap.

by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on Nov 24, 2007 8:34 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

A morals debate eh?
This was remarkably well-mannered. Only some minor collateral damage done.

by Matthew on Nov 24, 2007 8:46 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, we're pretty awesome.
I've been reading threads on this on about 4 different sites, not including this one. And all of  them except this one have gotten out of hand. Hell, LSB got so bad that Adam Morris deleted and disabled all the comments in the thread.
These pretzels....are making me thirsty!

by Goose on Nov 25, 2007 4:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Prudence, not morality.
This is rambling and goes in about three different directions. However, I feel it (or at least parts) add to the discussion.

--------
Once you write something down, anyone can read it.
There is absolutely nothing that prevents me from reposting any letter, email, tty transcript, etc as I see fit, as the recipient. These arguments are not about morality at all but instead prudence as it exists for any public figure (see my part about branding below to get a better idea of how I view public figurehood).

I don't write down anything that could come back to haunt me. In online forums, I am anonymous, and therefore don't care what I write. I can write acording to how anonymous I am in that forum. Me and my (myspace or whatever)page are for certain people to see, and I keep them private for that reason. If I were a Jeff or Conlin or Crash, I am not just that person, I am also brand LL or that newspaper or whatever blog he's from.

I guess I'll put it in the way I know best. I was once employed by a call center. In that capacity, I was XXXX Company, taking calls. You, Crash, Conlin, and any other person working under a "brand" are that brand, in all correspondence relating to that brand.

If he made some assholish (but not overtly offensive, which this was not) remark in a public forum anonymously (or by stating he was not speaking in his capacity of XXXX Company journalist), and somehow it came out, the newspaper could say that it was on his time, and that he distanced himself from that brand. That's life when you work in a public capacity.

I just think you don't realize this because brand LL isn't big enough in your eyes to protect. You could ask the owner of SB (for example) how he feels on the subject, and I bet you would get an answer a lot in line with what I'm trying to say.

Jeff, you said that when a reader emails you, you are informal, yet polite (or something like that). But would you write a person something like "Stalin was the best thing to ever happen to Russia, and I'd follow him if he were alive today"? I don't think you would even make a Utah Miner joke to some random reader you hadn't "met" before (by postings or otherwise).

--------
Correspondence and public figures is all about trust. He writes a dick joke to his friend, he trusts the friend won't reprint it, either by implicitly trusing him, or by asking him not to reprint things he says. You can't have that sort of trust with some person that emailed you out of the blue to criticize you. Or at least, not if you have any common sense.
---

I don't believe any of this will change your mind about the morality, but I would argue that morality only comes into play when there is trust. If there is no trust, you have to use prudence as a public figure. Crash was talking to Conlin in Conlin's capacity as reporter for Newspaper X. Conlin made comments that he really shouldn't have in the capacity of his job. Crash posted them, as is his perogative, in the (supposed) intrest of showing him to be the asshole he was. Had Crash emailed Conlin personally, or either wrote that they wanted to take it to personal email, they would not be acting as surrogates of their brand, and that email being posted (if it would have been) would have had a much less dramatic effect.

In short, public figures, especially those that represent a brand, cannot simply say whatever they want, as a matter of prudence, not morality. You are looking at it from a personal perspective, but I think if you saw it from a LL as a business perspective, you'd see that you do actually censor yourself quite a bit in your capacity as "head of LL".

by Faux on Nov 24, 2007 9:21 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

That was a thoughtful response.
I agree with much of what you say. Conlin should've known way better than to act how he did, and if/when his employer finds out about it, they have every right to be upset with him. There was no trust between Conlin and Crash, and for that reason he shouldn't have written in such an exceedingly unprofessional (and just plainly stupid) manner.

I think we're all in the same boat in that regard. However, there's a point you don't really address, and that's what happens when Crash opens his inbox. Why publish the emails (which, for the record, is in itself a copyright violation)? What is the purpose of sharing something that you know wasn't intended as such? I understand that Crash was insulted, but if you're holding something that you know was meant as a personal correspondence and nothing more, how do you then present it to the world without feeling the slightest bit dirty?

If I'm Crash, and Conlin and I have the same email dialogue, here's what I do - I make the same post, printing the entirety of my message(s) to Conlin, and say that "rather than engage me in a mature, grown-up discussion, Conlin behaved in an unprofessional manner completely unbefitting of a man in his position." That sends the same message without my having to feel guilty about violating Conlin's privacy.

by Jeff on Nov 25, 2007 12:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Now see
I like that alternative.

by Gomez on Nov 25, 2007 1:41 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wisdom vs. morals
Jeff,

Your suggested course might be a wiser approach, but it does not follow that Crash violated some code of morality either.  The key assumption you have is that Conlin could have and should have expected that the e-mail correspondance was private.  Several of us here have been pointing out that Conlin would be flat out wrong to think that.  His newspaper has placed him in a prominent public position, and has tasked him with the responsibility of not just writing columns, but answering reader comments as well.  The e-mails he sent were part of his very public position and responsibility.  That he chose to engage in the kind of argumentation he did--well, that's a matter of public interest as well.

by zugzwang on Nov 26, 2007 11:13 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And others of us have been pointing out
that Conlin would be right to think that. Look, I obviously can't make you have the same beliefs here as me, but I personally don't like the implications of email correspondence - any non-threatening email correspondence - becoming public.

by Jeff on Nov 26, 2007 11:46 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

100% agree
I understand this is the age of Teh Intarwebs, when everyone's every utterance is put online as if everyone by default should be interested in it, but a correspondence between two people should be treated as private.  

I understand the law may see it differently, but to me this is more than just a legal matter.  There are many, many things that don't need to be aired in public, and this was probably one of them.  It is not required that everything which upsets someone needs to be a public shitstorm.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Nov 26, 2007 12:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Different jobs, different expectations
OK, this probably won't convince you, but for the last 14 years I've worked at jobs where any e-mail I sent in my professional capacity absolutely has to be written with great care, because any of them could be made public.  No e-mail I write in that capacity is "private."  My reputation and the reputation of my organization would certainly be affected negatively if I spouted off the way Conlin felt free to do.  This is an absolute no-brainer for a professional whose job includes dealing with the public in any way.

by zugzwang on Nov 27, 2007 9:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, any of them *could* be made public.
That doesn't make it appropriate.

by Jeff on Nov 27, 2007 10:04 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Conlin was closed-minded and juvenile
but his remarks weren't particularly offensive.  Hitler rounded up all sorts of people with whom he disagreed (Jews were a plurality), but Conlin's point here is that the bloggers are challenging the accepted point-of-view, and that's somehow harming society.  And old-school baseball fans actually think that, so given Hitler's treatment of people who disagreed with the way Germany was suppoesd to be run (as defined by Hitler), the analogy makes perfect sense.

Making a Hitler reference does not make one an anti-semite.

Conlin's an ass, and a lousy columnist who probably doesn't warrant employment, but nothing he did here made that more true than it already was.

Crashburn Alley was totally in the wrong, here.

That said, note that many public figures explicitly state in their email signature that their remarks are not for redistribution.  Will Carroll does this.

by Llewdor on Nov 24, 2007 10:05 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

'Crashburn Alley was totally in the wrong, here'
But you didn't bother to explain why they're wrong.  At all.

Qualify that.

by Gomez on Nov 24, 2007 10:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm with Jeff
You shouldn't publish private conversations without consent.

The consequences of widespread publication of private conversations would be sufficiently bad that we should all fear it.  We can avoid it by not publishing private conversations.

by Llewdor on Nov 26, 2007 9:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're too kind
That's a nice, non-confrontational non-response, Gomez, but I think it's still worth pointing out that, on top of not making a real argument, Evan's opinions aren't particularly illuminating either.  Maybe there is a difference of opinion about how offensive Conlin was (I think he was pretty offensive), but there is no dispute that his e-mails were unprofessional in the extreme and certainly they raise a valid question whether he has the judgment requisite to keep his public perch.  I'm not saying that the man ought to be fired over this, but if this kind of exchange is characteristic of the way he reacts to criticism, then he is in the wrong line of business.  His job is to be thoughtfully provocative, which means he should generate criticism, and he should be able to deal with it without being a pure ass.

by zugzwang on Nov 26, 2007 11:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I'm not trying to pick a fight with Evan
Not at all.  I just think such a strong stance warrants an explanation of the reasoning.

by Gomez on Nov 26, 2007 12:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Disagreeing hurts this team.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 26, 2007 12:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Great thread
I have nothing thoughtful to add, because I'm too intoxicated to form a coherent arguement, but it's been a pleasant read.

That is all.

"Players have two things to do. Play and keep their mouths shut." - Sparky Anderson

by Omerta on Nov 25, 2007 1:53 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Seconded
On all counts. Hello Beer pong. We meet again.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 25, 2007 2:39 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Jeff
You assume way too many things.

what happens when Crash opens his inbox. Why publish the emails (which, for the record, is in itself a copyright violation)?

No, it's not a copyright violation. He forfeits any rights to the E-mail message once he clicks "Send."

I have asked, in person, many people involved either with law (lawyers) or law enforcement (cops) and none of them said I was legally in the wrong in any way.

In fact, even if I had promised Conlin I wouldn't post our correspondence, I STILL have the right to post them.

Some of the legality of this stems from the USA PATRIOT Act, but I'm not sure how much.

"What is the purpose of sharing something that you know wasn't intended as such?"

A) You assume that the E-mail wasn't intended to be publicized.

B) You assume that I understood that the E-mail wasn't intended to be publicized.

C) As an employee representing his employer, Conlin has to ASSUME that the E-mail will be PUBLIC, not PRIVATE.

"I understand that Crash was insulted, but if you're holding something that you know was meant as a personal correspondence and nothing more,"

You're assuming, incorrectly.

"how do you then present it to the world without feeling the slightest bit dirty?"

It wasn't a private E-mail and I was never in the wrong.

Conlin's E-mail was listed right underneath his article on his employer's website.

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/sports/20071121_Bill_Conlin___Rollins_winning_numbers.html

Therefore, it is NOT a personal E-mail regardless of whether or not he uses it for personal reasons. That is a PROFESSIONAL E-mail account.

by CrashburnAlley on Nov 25, 2007 3:06 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Quotes
Oops, meant to put quotes around "what happens when Crash opens his inbox. Why publish the emails (which, for the record, is in itself a copyright violation)?"

by CrashburnAlley on Nov 25, 2007 3:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's sleepy time crash
Go to bed.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 25, 2007 3:41 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's 6 AM
The day is starting.

by CrashburnAlley on Nov 25, 2007 3:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's 4 here
The day doesn't exist until noon. If I wasn't drunk, I'd be asleep right now... until Monday.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 25, 2007 4:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Er
-I don't really care if it's legal or not; that was a throwaway point

A) You assume that the E-mail wasn't intended to be publicized.

That seems like a pretty safe assumption.

B) You assume that I understood that the E-mail wasn't intended to be publicized.

Why would you ever assume that an email like that is intended to be viewed by the public?

C) As an employee representing his employer, Conlin has to ASSUME that the E-mail will be PUBLIC, not PRIVATE.

I don't believe this is true. I don't think the fact that Conlin wrote you back from his listed AOL account takes away his privacy. You clearly disagree.

by Jeff on Nov 25, 2007 10:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If C) is true
And it really was an aol account he wrote from, I may lean more your way on the issue.  But had the email been douchebag@thephiladelphiaenquirer.com, the representing your brand/work email argument is a pretty good one.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Nov 25, 2007 12:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It doesn't matter?
It doesn't matter that the Philadelphia Daily News, Bill Conlin's employer, lists his E-mail address under the work Conlin does professionally for them?

Meaning, the PDN's CUSTOMERS contact their EMPLOYEE via that E-mail address, but it's still private?

With all due respect, that makes no logical sense.

by CrashburnAlley on Nov 25, 2007 12:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Do you or do you not believe
that Conlin wrote his emails under the expectation that you'd be the only one reading them?

by Jeff on Nov 25, 2007 1:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Defending Crash
Firstly, I think Andy James has it right: A journalist responding to readers has to do this in a manner not causing embarrasment to his paper when it gets publicly known. Conlin had not one but several rather offensive remarks in this correspondence (I bet the paper is thrilled that he called the Mets and their fans the bitches of the Phillies.)

Secondly, columnists are public figures and have to accept that the way they behave in communication with their readers is subject to public scrutiny. For this reason I disagree with the notion that the e-mails sent by Conlin are "private" communications. Rather, I think it was not wrong by crash to publish these excerpts. And Conlin's expectations about whether the e-mails would be published does not matter for this reason in my view.

by vj on Nov 25, 2007 2:28 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

While I think you have a point, Jeff
I'm not sure the MSM or anyone else distrustful of bloggers has a right to complain about the publishing of private discussions without the other party's consent in blogs, when it is done in the media all the time.  As exhibit A, I present the recent scandal over Bounty Hunter "Dog" in which he used a racial slur in a private phone conversation, was taped without his knowledge, never gave his permission for it to be published, and yet it was, repeatedly, first by the National Enquirer and then by several major news networks.

Leaving aside whether or not it's morally correct, I don't think anyone can villify bloggers for doing what is common practice in the MSM.  The only reason some may attempt to do so, IMO, is because one of their own, another person in the press, is the one getting the short end of the stick this time.    

*Visiting Angels fan* Never give up, never surrender!

by TheOptimist on Nov 25, 2007 2:44 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Not getting into the morality thing
But I want to mention a loosely-related point (and really somewhat loosely) - since the advent of TV and especially the internet, a lot of newspapers are cutting back on their actual printed content since most people just read their news online. As a result, a lot of newspaper writers now have their own blogs - either through someplace like Blogger or on the newspaper's site itself - just to expand on content. One example of this is the Denver Post (and, since i'm a hockey dork first and foremost) and Mike Chambers who covers college hockey for the Post.

Since college hockey isn't the most popular sport around here in Colorado (that's left to the broncos and the rockies when they make the playoffs), Chambers doesn't get many inches in the daily paper. Therefore, to provide more coverage, he has a blog on the Post's site.

I guess where I'm getting at is in some respects, I hope bloggers do start getting more respect by the mainstream journalistic media if only because those journalists (are forced to?) have blogs of their own.

Well that, and I'm a journalist myself as well as a friend of Jeff who thinks he does a good job. :-p

by Quiz23 on Nov 26, 2007 3:02 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

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