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Around SBN: Africa Cup Of Nations Semifinal: Black Stars Ripe For Upset?

44-48, "Additional" Thoughts

  • Before the year started, anybody who was anybody predicted that the Mariners would end up winning ~81-84 games, and that there existed the potential for more (even a first-place finish) based on the sheer amount of young talent on the roster. Truly, there wasn't (and still isn't) a team better poised to take everyone by surprise than the Mariners, who looked strong, flexible, and loaded with breakout potential.

    One of the problems with predicting how a team does based on how it looks on paper, though, is that this operates under the assumption that the resources on the roster will be maximized to the fullest extent, that the right people will bat in the right places and that as little playing time will go to the worst players as possible. Preseason predictions assume that the roster will be managed perfectly, and that only injuries can cause a deviation from this ideal.

    Preseason predictions don't take into consideration people like Mike Hargrove.

    Since topping out at 42-40, the Mariners have lost eight of their last ten games. In the first game of this little skid, Hargrove refused to send Eduardo Perez to the plate on two separate occasions when he very easily could have driven home the winning run and sent the M's into a tie for first place. It might've been the worst-managed game of the entire season, and it made people realize that the team had been hot in spite of - not due to - having Hargrove at the helm.

    Today (and, to a lesser extent, yesterday) we witnessed another managerial debacle, already addressed by Dave at USSM. The real pièce de résistance was Hargrove going with the excruciatingly horrible Julio Mateo instead of Rafael Soriano or, more alarmingly, JJ Putz in the eleventh inning of a tie game. Predictably, Mateo lost the game, and the Mariners lost the series. Why didn't Putz pitch, you ask? Here's why:

    Mateo was in the game because closer J.J. Putz warmed up three times during Saturday's loss and was deemed unavailable by Hargrove on Sunday.

    (Bear in mind that Mateo threw two innings the previous day. Soriano threw one, Putz threw zero.)

    Honestly, I don't know how to take this anymore. Hargrove was given a talented roster, but through the magic of loyalty to veterans, aggressive baserunning, poor bullpen management, little use of a good bench, and general incompetence, he's managed to piss away winnable game after winnable game. Obviously you can't singularly blame Mike Hargrove for any given Mariner loss, since it's the players who determine the final score, but over the course of the season he's made so many bad to awful decisions that, if I were to give him a Win Probability Added rating, he'd almost certainly be rounding out the bottom. Nobody is ever directly responsible for a loss, but over time the partial blame can add up, and suddenly you realize that one guy has basically cost your team a handful of games. That's Mike. With a perfect skipper, the Mariners would be in first place right now. With an average manager, they'd be at least .500. That, more than anything else, has to be the most maddening fact of the season.

    The 2006 Seattle Mariners are a good, talented team, capable of making the playoffs if a few things were to break the right way. However, they're just not good enough to win with Mike Hargrove. The roster was built in such a way that, in order to squeeze out every last drop of production, it must be handled with careful attention paid to detail. And that's just not Mike Hargrove. It's not who he is, and it's not what he does.

    I can't stand the thought that Seattle's own manager could end up being the reason why the Mariners miss out on the playoffs. I guess the skeptics were right. I miss Bob Melvin.


  • Yeah, I realize that everybody complains about their favorite team's manager. They're like third base coaches, in that you only really notice them when they do something stupid. That said, Mike Hargrove is a special kind of stupid, and this is more than your run-of-the-mill "Manager X needs to be fired" daytime talk radio caller rant. Unlike, say, Willie Randolph or Ron Gardenhire, Mike Hargrove really is that bad, and he really does need to go.

  • A shame that the outcome had to go and spoil Yuniesky Betancourt's miraculous game-tying home run off of BJ Ryan. The approximate odds of that happening, based on respective career HR rates: 1.27%, or once every 79 plate appearances.

  • After today, I'm convinced that we'll never be able to tell whether or not Adrian Beltre is finally coming around, because he's developed this nasty habit of looking phenomenally retarded in one at bat and spectacularly awesome the next. While he smacked two doubles and drew a walk this afternoon, he also offered arguably the worst swing of all time at any level of baseball on a low-outside curveball in the top of the third. The pitch started five feet away and ended somewhere behind first base, but Adrian swung at it anyway, making up for a month's worth of decent plate discipline in half a second. If you were watching the game, you know what I'm talking about; if you weren't, don't fret, because you'll be seeing it on AJ Burnett highlight reels for the next decade until he retires.

  • Based on what was shouted near a microphone around home plate in the bottom of the third, I have it on good authority that Vernon Wells thinks Vernon Wells is a "stupid son of a bitch."

  • I was going to write a list of things that are funnier and/or more entertaining than the Geico gecko, but for the sake of my fingers, I'll do the opposite and compose a list of things that are less funny and/or entertaining than the Geico gecko:

    -AIDS


  • According to folklore I just made up, the Angel of Death is accompanied by a smokin' hot bimbo whose sole purpose is to ease the pain that comes with the realization that you're dead and going to Hell. She appears rather suddenly just prior to quietus and sticks around until the deed is done and the soul is released from its body, at which point she returns to her otherworldly necromantic abode for cocktails and casual sex with men who are better looking than you. Sure enough, she was in attendance at the Rogers Centre today, showing up to stand behind home plate and bear witness to the bottom of the eleventh:

    Mysterious accomplice to Death whose face is constantly hidden by the FSN header graphic, you can find my email address in the right-hand menu bar. I understand the necessary side-effect of making your acquaintance, but while it's not ideal, I'm not sure a life of watching Mike Hargrove manage your favorite baseball team is a life worth living anyway.


  • Willie Ballgame entered the game hitting .193 with one double against right-handed pitchers, and proceeded to drop an o'fer in five at bats. Given that Jeremy Reed was 0-23 against southpaws before he hurt himself, I suppose we should at least be thankful that Hargrove didn't get his platoon backwards.

I don't feel like writing anything else. Jarrod Washburn takes his sterling 5.70 road ERA to Yankee Stadium tomorrow, taking on frustrating groundballer Chien-ming Wang at 4:05pm PDT.

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wonderful stuff
thanks for the screenshot... although the awful FSN banner does always seem in the way
www.royalsreview.com

by Freneau on Jul 16, 2006 11:15 PM PDT reply actions  

That's okay
She probably has a horseface anyway :P
SWUNG ON AND BELTED! DEEP TO... shortstop....

by Gomez on Jul 17, 2006 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

I know who she is!!!
Lisa Bloomquist.  Either that or Heidi Dobbs.

How do you think their husbands got to where they are???  

Exactly.  The Elizabeth Hurley to their Brendan Fraser...

Free George Sherrill. And Dan Rohn.

by PositivePaul on Jul 17, 2006 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

I wonder when
We start blaming Bavasi for some of this. I'm not privy to inside information, but even though it sounds like Bavasi's hands are tied he must have some say in determining Hargrove's fate.

I won't blame him if he wasn't paying attention because of the Girl in the Black Dress, but surely he was watching yesterday's performance.

by JLC on Jul 16, 2006 11:33 PM PDT reply actions  

Tomorrow's game
Will also go into extra-innings.  The score will be 4-4, Mariano Rivera will pitch 2 scoreless innings while J.J. Putz sleeps on his hammock.  Mateo will pitch in the bottom of the 10th inning and give up a walk-off homerun to Miguel Cairo.

Btw, on the pre-game show today Hargrove was going over his bullpen availability.  He basically said Sherill and Woods were available while Soriano wasn't (he might have mentioned Putz being unavailable but he was mumbling and I couldn't make it out).  Julio Mateo's availability?  Hargrove: "I dunno.  I'll have to talk to him and see how he feels."

I hate the foreshadowing of bad things.

by ThundaPC on Jul 17, 2006 12:01 AM PDT reply actions  

Speaking as someone who was at the game . . .
This:

"Mateo was in the game because closer J.J. Putz warmed up three times during Saturday's loss and was deemed unavailable by Hargrove on Sunday."

is just a cover story.  Putz was warming up in the 10th after Ichiro doubled and it looked like the M's would take the lead.  So he was avaliable, but only in a save situation.  

by abelard on Jul 17, 2006 3:41 AM PDT reply actions  

Supposed to go to tonight's game against the M's
But I have a hockey game. Guess it will save me some frustration.

by phil333 on Jul 17, 2006 5:47 AM PDT reply actions  

I'm not baffled
But I did save a bunch of money on my car insurance by getting rid of my car.
SWUNG ON AND BELTED! DEEP TO... shortstop....

by Gomez on Jul 17, 2006 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

hahahaha LMAO
Sorry, that was funny.

by MT on Jul 17, 2006 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Finally
The respected minds of the blogosphere are also starting to see what a tangible detriment Hargrove is to this ballclub.  Like many, I'm usually inclined to say that the manager has no real effect on a ballclub, at the way a coach does in other sports.

But that assumes such a manager makes reasonably sound decisions that put his team in the best position to win.  Hargrove's decisions are bad enough sometimes to make you wonder if he's throwing games.  Bavasi and the Seattle Baseball Corporation may think that firing Hargrove is an act of throwing in the towel.  But ironically, I'd say that keeping him through the end of this season is throwing in the towel in 2006.

They can save this season by firing him now and installing Dan Rohn, who isn't a supreme genius, but will at least put the roster to greater use and use guys like Perez and Putz when the team has a chance to take over and win a tight ballgame.

SWUNG ON AND BELTED! DEEP TO... shortstop....

by Gomez on Jul 17, 2006 10:37 AM PDT reply actions  

But they won't
I know, I know.
SWUNG ON AND BELTED! DEEP TO... shortstop....

by Gomez on Jul 17, 2006 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nope, they won't
But, heck, they might be more amicable towards something like installing Willie Bloomquist as a player-manager, not unlike the Joe Cronin-lead Senators and Red Sox back in the early 20th Century.  Imagine the fan swooning that would follow!

He wouldn't be any worse than Hargrove!

Free George Sherrill. And Dan Rohn.

by PositivePaul on Jul 17, 2006 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

Seriously, why would they?
How could they package it as a PR move, when Hargrove isn't getting any negative press in the papers?  You'd think that somebody in the PI or Times would have to start the "replace Hargrove" cry before the general public would accept such a move.  

But then, perhaps they wouldn't be "allowed" to start such a cry until the M's front office leaked that they were considering it.  The fact that nobody in the media is holding Hargrove responsible for his mistakes (and is instead using lines like "Hargrove was forced to go with Julio Mateo for a second straight day") I think is a good indication that firing Hargrove is not even being considered as an option.

by Nadingo on Jul 17, 2006 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

How do we know?
That Rohn would bench or pinch hit for Everett?  Rohn has never managed at this level.. he's never had to deal with the million dollar contracts, the vesting options, the egocentric personalities of guys making 10x's as much money.

How do you know the first time Carl comes into his office a lays a tirade down on him that Rohn would do the exact same thing that Hargrove is doing?   Rohn might be a better manager, might be a smarter guy.... then again, he might get even more intimidated by these guys when they come unglued on him....

That's not to say I don't think Rohn could do a better job... that's to say.. its not a given that anything would be any different ... these are all the same complaints that people had about Bob Melvin... horrible use of the pen... stagnant lineup cards...

by MfaninAlaska on Jul 17, 2006 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

Valid point....
Though I do think that Hargrove has been much, much worse on lineup and personnel management.

by rtang on Jul 17, 2006 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

Umm.
Well, if you think Rohn's going to be intimidated by guys like Everett, then you don't know Dan Rohn.

Dan Rohn may be smaller than Mike Hargrove.  By half.  But, he's got ten times the cojones to stand up to guys like Everett.  

Dan Rohn would not be intimidated by no one.  Just ask Chris Thomas.

Free George Sherrill. And Dan Rohn.

by PositivePaul on Jul 17, 2006 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

What does an Umpire
Have to do with a million dollar a year player?  Its not physical intimdation that I'm talking about... its the rants and clubhouse distractions that dissatisfied players create that harms the team... and when players don't get their way you'd better believe they become distractions.  Those are the things that Rohn has never had to deal with because minor leaguers are working hard for their shot at the majors.. its the guys that are here.   Like Ichiro last year because of Hargrove.... how will Rohn handle those types of situations that are unknown... will he stick to his guns, or will he relent under the pressure of the guys making more money?

again.. its not a given that Rohn will just be able to do it his way and have the players live with it and like it.  Anyone that has followed baseball for a long period of time knows that the players have alot more control then that.

by MfaninAlaska on Jul 17, 2006 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

About Rohn...
I was addressing specifically the issue you raised of Everett coming into Rohn's office and rippin' him a new one.  Rohn could handle that and then some.  I'm not trying to turn him into some superhero, but Rohn would not be intimidated by Everett, or anyone else for that matter, coming into his office and yelling at him.  

If Rohn has any redeeming quality is that HE'S IN CONTROL OF THE CLUBHOUSE!  I seriously doubt that the MLB egos and whatnot would interfere with that.  Rohn's style, from what I understand, is that he's tough when he needs to be and soft when he needs to be.  You give Rohn authority, and he takes it -- and knows how to use it.  Ask any of the former Rainiers -- some would argue that he's TOO authoritative.

You don't think Rohn had distractions to deal with in 2005?  Sure the specific distractions are different, but Rohn had to deal with guys who'd been demoted, and were quite upset about it.  How about Bucky Jacobsen in Tacoma.  You don't think he had an ego while in Cheney?  Rohn handled him just fine.

Don't forget that Rohn's been around the team all year.  He certainly knows the players by now, and undboutedly has established some level of rapport with a lot of the veterans.  Again, veteran players tend not to need a ton of managing.  If that's what you mean by "Anyone that has followed baseball for a long period of time knows that the players have alot more control then that" -- then, yes, I'd agree that a team with a lot of veterans certainly has a need for a different type of manager.  That type of team needs a more hands-off manager like Torre.  But this M's team, and the team of the immediate future is rather young, and has a decent balance of veterans and youth.  

I'd be willing to bet that Ichiro would really like Rohn as a manager.  I don't think Ichiro has a lot of respect for poor leaders that don't show much intelligence.  I think there's a lot behind the perceived rift between Hargrove and Ichiro.  Since trying to lure someone like Sadaharu Oh to manage this club is pretty much out of the question, Ichiro may very well just be happy with someone other than Hargrove at the helm.  I don't think Rohn would try and interfere with what Ichiro is doing, whereas it certainly appears that Hargrove has pushed Ichiro's buttons somehow.

Only person that would have a problem with Rohn managing would be Everett.  And that problem wouldn't be one for long.  Hargrove goes, and Everett's no fewer than 2-3 steps behind.  Moyer, Ibanez, Sexson, Ichiro, Washburn, Beltre... They'd probably have no problem with Rohn in there.  Or darn near any other manager for that matter...

Free George Sherrill. And Dan Rohn.

by PositivePaul on Jul 17, 2006 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Good rant
Also, word on the (blogosphere) street for the last few months has been that many of the Mariner players actually don't like Hargrove at all and wish he'd disappear.
SWUNG ON AND BELTED! DEEP TO... shortstop....

by Gomez on Jul 17, 2006 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dan Rohn
From all that I've heard and read, he seems like the best fit for the team much like Rafael Chaves turned out to be the best fit as the pitching coach.  He's someone I'd definately take my chances with.

by ThundaPC on Jul 17, 2006 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Because, there's almost no way
anyone could be worse than Mike Hargrove. Seriously.

by Matthew on Jul 17, 2006 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hahahaha
I have to laugh at that one because I heard that exact same quote a billion times during BoMel's time in Seattle.

by MfaninAlaska on Jul 17, 2006 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

And they were right
BoMel and Grover are equal levels of incompentence. Just in different areas.

by Matthew on Jul 17, 2006 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

What others said
Grover lets things be, mainly because he's lazy and doesn't want to upset anyone or mess up his comfort zone.  Look at Grover lounging on the bench during a game, and tell me with a straight face that he's an aggressive manager who will readily stand up to anyone at any time.

Rohny's a fireball, at the absolute least in comparison to the comatose Hargrove.  If Everett's laying eggs and waving at hittable strikes, one would think that Rohn would straight up tell the press, "I benched him because he isn't trying and he isn't hitting."  He doesn't have longtime friendships with players or a reputation to maintain for the public and media.  There isn't a precedent that mentally ties him down the way it ties down Hargrove.

There are a lot of other factors I haven't the energy or time to get into, but the difference between Rohn and Hargrove are worlds apart.

SWUNG ON AND BELTED! DEEP TO... shortstop....

by Gomez on Jul 17, 2006 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Because I'm bored...
www.dinorally.com... taking suggestions.

also registered firehargrove.com and firemikehargrove.com just because I'm starting to really hate him.

by Christopher on Jul 17, 2006 11:42 AM PDT reply actions  

Get metaphorical
Carl doesn't believe in dinosaurs.  Say that since the Mariners winning ways of 1995-2003 are in effect a dinosaur, Carl doesn't believe in the Mariners winning, which is why he sucks so much.

The dinosaur's time to rally is now.  Down with Carl Everett, Hargrove and anyone who gets in the way of THE RALLY DINO.

(you can even photoshop Felix and Betancourt riding on the dinosaur's back)

SWUNG ON AND BELTED! DEEP TO... shortstop....

by Gomez on Jul 17, 2006 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

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