Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: The Worst Team Ever Projected?

A Comparison

Horacio Ramirez, Career (NL):

K%: 11.3%
uBB%: 8.1%
GB%: 49.7%
HR/FB%:* 13.7%

Joel Pineiro, 2006 (AL):

K%: 11.8%
uBB%: 6.9%
GB%: 47.5%
HR/FB%: 13.4%

Comment 212 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Bucking Feautiful.
I. Must. Defecate.  
Are we there yet?

by PositivePaul on Dec 6, 2006 2:41 PM PST reply actions  

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Don't show this Jeff. I'm not ready to see that. It's like showing me a picture of George Bush after announcing he was elected.

by Corco on Dec 6, 2006 2:41 PM PST reply actions  

Jeff
Was that necessary this early?
Go Fo Broke!

by eknpdx on Dec 6, 2006 2:42 PM PST reply actions  

Worse...
... was it necessary this early?

I have to go sleep on the back of what might be a bad trade now. The temptation to stay awake until Jeff posts a more positive rumour is strong...

by MarkE on Dec 6, 2006 2:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Good Lord
I hate this deal. Please tell me this is all a bad dream!
"Ooh! Ooh! I have one of those things, like a headache with pictures!"

by Thingray on Dec 6, 2006 2:44 PM PST reply actions  

Well, as much as I hate this trade...
that is a tad unfair. Ramirez is a lefty which should help a little in Safeco. Granted his splits against lefties aren't much better, but he should give up fewer HR's at Safeco. Still, to be that close to Joel scares me.

by basebliman on Dec 6, 2006 2:44 PM PST reply actions  

I'm confident that Ramirez is better
but Joel isn't really an appropriate benchmark for the return for Rafael freaking Soriano.

The fact that they're this close is terrifying.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 2:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Do you think this means
Joel will be one of the arms trying to win a spot in the rotation come spring?  There must be a reason he hasn't been released yet.

by Jed C on Dec 6, 2006 2:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Joel won't be back.
The deadline for non-tendering hasn't hit yet. They're probably just trying to find out if there's any interest in him at all before officially cutting him loose.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 2:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Oh no
Per Wikipedia: His pitching arsenal consists of a low 90's fastball, a slider, and a hanging curveball.

by chrisisasavage on Dec 6, 2006 2:44 PM PST reply actions  

Thanks man.
This is exactly what we needed to see.

by JLC on Dec 6, 2006 2:54 PM PST reply actions  

Oh man
That's not a good sign.  Jesus got NAILED.  ::ducks::

by Gomez on Dec 6, 2006 8:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Here's his last ten starts last year:
DATE   OPP   W L ERA  SV IP  H ER BB SO
JUN 11 @HOU  0 1 5.06 0  1.2 6  6   1  1
JUN 22 TOR   0 0 4.32 0  6.2 7  1   6  5
JUN 27 @NYY  1 0 3.48 0  8.0 7  0   1  3
JUL 02 BAL   1 0 3.47 0  8.0 7  3   0  4
JUL 07 CIN   0 1 4.65 0  1.0 7  7   1  0
JUL 17 @STL  1 0 4.39 0  5.0 2  1   3  0
JUL 23 @PHI  0 0 4.04 0  7.0 10 1   1  5
JUL 28 NYM   0 1 4.52 0  3.1 7  5   5  1
AUG 02 @PIT  0 0 4.35 0  6.2 5  2   3  4
AUG 07 PHI   0 1 4.48 0  4.0 1  3   3  3

Hey, he beat Baltimore AND the Yankees!  He's a proven winner!  Surely this success will transfer over full-time to the AL!

by J.W. Pezzino on Dec 6, 2006 2:54 PM PST reply actions  

GB%?
Jeff, where are you getting the GB%?  The Hardball Times GB% for the last three years has Ramirez significantly better than Pineiro:

Ramirez
2004 53.6%
2005 48.1%
2006 53.8%

Pineiro
2004 43.4
2005 45.3
2006 47.5

by G_ on Dec 6, 2006 2:55 PM PST reply actions  

Fangraphs.
Here's Ramirez's page.

Those two years at 53+, I like a little. The two at 48, I don't.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 2:57 PM PST up reply actions  

53%
Those were both partial seasons. :(

by Josh @ Lookout Landing on Dec 6, 2006 2:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Ugh...
Kind of return I'm willing to get back for Julio Mateo, not Rafael Soriano.

If the Braves are willing to give up LaRoche for Mike Gonzalez, you think they might have been willing to give him up for Soriano.  Except if you're willing to take Ramirez back instead.  Idiotic.

Get LaRoche, dump Sexson elsewhere for somebody, anybody better than Ramirez, and sign another starter.  Jesus.

by Egaas on Dec 6, 2006 2:56 PM PST reply actions  

Anyone think Bavasi is allergic
to a punch in the face?

Just curious.

by JLC on Dec 6, 2006 3:00 PM PST reply actions  

hmm
I will gladly test that out for you.

by 88fingerslukee on Dec 6, 2006 3:04 PM PST up reply actions  

M's deny deal in place
I just talked to someone in the organization, and they're denying that a deal for Rafael Soriano is in place.  

by davidcameron on Dec 6, 2006 3:05 PM PST reply actions  

I hate the Internet
Thanks, Dave.  Let's hope that is accurate.

by tait644 on Dec 6, 2006 3:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Dave
You da man!

by sergey on Dec 6, 2006 3:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Please Please Please
Oh, for the love of God be true!  Maybe the entire Mariners FO tackled Bavasi and broke his deal-signing arm and dragged him away from the fax machine crying and screaming.

by J.W. Pezzino on Dec 6, 2006 3:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Surely...
... even if a deal was going through, you'd expect the top brass to deny it until it was actually confirmed, through signing every last paper, dotting every last i, crossing every last t and every medical under the sun?

by MarkE on Dec 6, 2006 3:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Deny Everything?
Well if that really is the truth, it would be a lot better than what I woke up to.

Ramirez isn't the worst pitcher in the majors, but there's no reason to give up Soriano so he can have an off-season competition and laugh at Joel.

by Josh @ Lookout Landing on Dec 6, 2006 3:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Everybody cross your fingers.
Evidently there's a chance this isn't actually an official deal after all.

I've never wished so hard for something in my entire life. And that includes Eliza Dushku.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 3:05 PM PST reply actions  

Dushku?
I'm thinking Kate Beckinsale...

by tait644 on Dec 6, 2006 3:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Not just Kate Beckinsale
but Kate with the vampire teeth. OOOOOHH YEAAAHH!!
"I'VE GOT BLISTERS ON ME FINGERS!!"
--Stewie Griffin AND Josh Beckett

by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Dec 6, 2006 3:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Finally
Finally someone agrees with me Kate Beckinsale is #1, but Kate Beckinsale with vampire teeth is even better.  I hope you weren't kidding because if you were I look like an idiot.

by LantermanC on Dec 6, 2006 3:35 PM PST up reply actions  

No way
I'm with you two on this one.  Yowza!

by jimmimoose1 on Dec 6, 2006 3:38 PM PST up reply actions  

You pups...
In my day, Alissa Milano was the bomb. Still is, too, IMHO.
Are we there yet?

by PositivePaul on Dec 6, 2006 3:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Totally not kidding.
There's something incredibly sexy about those teeth.
"I'VE GOT BLISTERS ON ME FINGERS!!"
--Stewie Griffin AND Josh Beckett

by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Dec 6, 2006 3:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Vampire teeth
Teeth are good, but I'm just as big of a fan of the light blue eyes, pale skin, and tight leather suit

by LantermanC on Dec 6, 2006 3:52 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm an emotional wreck right now.
Elation, despair, elation.

Good greif.

Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 6, 2006 3:06 PM PST reply actions  

Could this mean....
Something bigger at play and part of it got leaked?  I hate this....
I killed a 12 pack just to watch it die...

by Dollar97 on Dec 6, 2006 3:08 PM PST reply actions  

Don't they always deny it?
Seems like until they sign the guy, its oh no were not talking to good ole Hora

by Justise on Dec 6, 2006 3:08 PM PST reply actions  

YES!
Eliza Dushku much better comparison image than Joel Pineiro and Horacio Ramirez

by Emerald on Dec 6, 2006 3:09 PM PST reply actions  

The Gonzalez/LaRoche Rumor
Still has legs, so who knows what is going to happen?

by tait644 on Dec 6, 2006 3:12 PM PST reply actions  

Perspective People.
If the deal happens or the deal doesn't happen this isn't huge either way.  It isn't making or breaking the 2007 season

Soriano is an amazing arm, but he is also damaged goods.  He has not proven he can stay healthy for an extended amount of time.  I think everyone is overvaluing him.  

Of course that doesn't mean throw him away, but to trade him at this time you are not going to get his "Full value" IMO

by Peen on Dec 6, 2006 3:12 PM PST reply actions  

I don't think anyone's opposed
to trading Rafael Soriano.

But Horacio Ramirez?

That's...that's stupid. You can absolutely do better than Horacio Ramirez when you're floating Soriano on the open market.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 3:15 PM PST up reply actions  

maybe we should chill a minute....
and make sure this has actually happened.......

by jojo on Dec 6, 2006 3:14 PM PST reply actions  

Oh, I've got perspective...
That doesn't mean you trade him away for a left-handed version of Ryan Franklin.  There's no way getting around that this trade is just an awful move for the Mariners.

He was lights out last season and if true, he will be the lead in the Braves rotation.

by J.W. Pezzino on Dec 6, 2006 3:16 PM PST reply actions  

Oops
Er, bullpen.  Not rotation.

Or maybe...a freudian slip :)

by J.W. Pezzino on Dec 6, 2006 3:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Ramirez/Franklin
Goodness, that's a horribly inaccurate comparison.

by tait644 on Dec 6, 2006 3:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah..
You're right, at least Franklin can give you 200 innings.

by J.W. Pezzino on Dec 6, 2006 3:41 PM PST up reply actions  

I think it's time to firebomb Scout.com
Seriously, that wasn't freaking cool.
Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 6, 2006 3:16 PM PST reply actions  

firebombing scout.com
How am I supposed to be writing a futhermucking TERM PAPER when I'm checking Mariner sites every 15 seconds?!

Anyone hear me on this? My goals of nutting up and focusing on work have been shattered.

by Hoft on Dec 6, 2006 3:22 PM PST up reply actions  

I've got exactly the same problem.
I will be writing Scout a lengthy complaint about how it almost gave me a heart attack, almost made me suicidal, and then turned out to be a waste of energy.

by Corco on Dec 6, 2006 3:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Uh huh.
Forget biological chemistry tonight.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 3:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Winter League
Anyone know what Rafael's current W.L. stats are?

by Emerald on Dec 6, 2006 3:16 PM PST reply actions  

5.1 IP, 3 runs.
As of a few days ago. He says his arm feels great, though, and he's throwing between 91-94.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 3:19 PM PST up reply actions  

per Rosenthal and Rotoworld
FOXSports.com's Ken Rosenthal says the Mariners and Braves are talking about a swap of Rafael Soriano and Horacio Ramirez.
Scout.com's Bill Shanks reported that it was a done deal. Rosenthal doesn't go that far, but it's obviously a legitimate rumor. The Mariners would be crazy to make this trade without getting a second quality player in return. Soriano is a health risk, but he's also one of baseball's best relievers when he's on. Ramirez is a No. 4 starter.

by Matthew on Dec 6, 2006 3:21 PM PST reply actions  

that article occurs approx. 5 minutes before
Dave's post. So they could be going off of that Scout article.
Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 6, 2006 3:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Please
tell me that this isn't true, or isn't the entire deal.

"The Mariners would be crazy to make this trade without getting a second quality player in return."

AMEN!

"Ooh! Ooh! I have one of those things, like a headache with pictures!"

by Thingray on Dec 6, 2006 3:25 PM PST reply actions  

USSM
Why does this site never crash?

by 88fingerslukee on Dec 6, 2006 3:31 PM PST reply actions  

USSM is independent
LL is part of that huge SportsNation thingeemabobber.

by Corco on Dec 6, 2006 3:36 PM PST up reply actions  

I think you're spot on
There's a ton going on at the WM today and I'm guessing someone a conversation and speculation ran wild. Bavasi's kind of slow, but he's not stupid (right? RIGHT!?!?!)

by Trent on Dec 6, 2006 3:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Jason seems to think the possibility is non-zero
plus, when EVERY single commenter at mlbtraderumors.com can tell that Soriano-Ramirez is a stupid fucking trade, then you know there's no way it's actually going down.

by Matthew on Dec 6, 2006 3:37 PM PST up reply actions  

From the comments over at PI
"Jason A. Churchill Says:
December 6th, 2006 at 3:30 pm

Okay, I sorta lied.

I just got an email saying the Braves are denying it, too."

Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 6, 2006 3:32 PM PST reply actions  

Good Job, Goose
Well, I am definitely staying away from Scout for a while...

by tait644 on Dec 6, 2006 3:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Whew
OK, I am going to step back off the ledge and try to relax.  

by Jerry on Dec 6, 2006 3:46 PM PST up reply actions  

I believe this more than the M's FO...
If the Braves are denying it, then it really isn't happening. Bavasi still isn't off the hook yet though. You gotta make a big move now that Schmidt's not an option.

by basebliman on Dec 6, 2006 3:47 PM PST up reply actions  

If you want to feel okay
go here. The three-way isn't dead yet.

What a weird afternoon this has been.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 3:46 PM PST reply actions  

That's a really well-written, comprehensive story
... and warming to-boot.

Should I go sleep now and pretend it's happening? At midnight PT about twenty new blogs and five thousand comments will have been posted. I might have finished reading them by the time you guys get up again.

Top stuff :o)

by MarkE on Dec 6, 2006 3:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Meche --> Cubs?
That's what KJR is saying.
Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 6, 2006 3:46 PM PST reply actions  

Am I the only one who think it would be hilarious
if he signed with them but got hurt?
Willie Bloomquist and Mike Hargrove suck

by Mariner John on Dec 6, 2006 4:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Soriano for Penny....
makes pretty good sense to me....

Now that a clever birdy leaked the BS offer from Atlanta, the true bidding war for Soriano will begin...

by jojo on Dec 6, 2006 3:47 PM PST reply actions  

And on the manny front:
The Boston Herald says little has gone on with the Manny Ramirez talks on Wednesday and that Ramirez is expected to remain with the Red Sox.
Michael Silverman says the Mariners refused to part with J.J. Putz and Adam Jones and apparently made Putz untouchable in talks.
Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 6, 2006 3:50 PM PST reply actions  

Use the whole quote:
"Michael Silverman says the Mariners refused to part with J.J. Putz and Adam Jones and apparently made Putz untouchable in talks. So, Putz, a soon-to-be 30-year-old reliever with a career ERA of 3.47 in 205 innings, cannot be had in trade talks, but Rafael Soriano, a soon-to-be 27-year-old reliever with a 2.89 ERA in 171 innings, can be had for a No. 4 starter. Genius."

Very true.

by Trent on Dec 6, 2006 3:54 PM PST up reply actions  

I didn't include the rest of that quote
Because we all know that Putz is not the same pitcher now that he was in the rest of those 140 innings or so before 2006.
Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 6, 2006 3:56 PM PST up reply actions  

But
you can't argue the validity of the statement.

by Trent on Dec 6, 2006 4:00 PM PST up reply actions  

No
Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 6, 2006 4:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Uh...
Sure you can.

Putz has zero DL trips.

Soriano wasn't able to stay off the DL in 2003, 2004, 2005 or 2006 (and that's not counting the concussion- he went on the DL in July).

The odds that you'll be using another pitcher for your closer for a 2-6 week stretch of 2007 are MUCH higher if you use Soriano in that role instead of Putz. That's a big factor in their worth.

by eponymous coward on Dec 6, 2006 6:39 PM PST up reply actions  

The statement is true
The implications are not. Putz is currently a better, more durable pitcher than Soriano, making about the same amount of money. There's no good reason to think he'll decline substantially unless he unlearns his split finger/explodes upon hearing Soriano has been traded to the Braves for Horatio mother****ing Ramirez.

by Graham MacAree on Dec 6, 2006 11:36 PM PST up reply actions  

All well and good
but career stats can be quite misleading.

Compare the two over a more recent period and that gap would be far tighter, I'd wager.

by MarkE on Dec 6, 2006 3:57 PM PST up reply actions  

well
we all do love tight gaps

...
...
...
...

/banned

by Matthew on Dec 6, 2006 5:22 PM PST up reply actions  

If that were true...
Besides, those Boston folks obviously didn't watch Putz pitch last year.

Genius...

by tait644 on Dec 6, 2006 3:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Sooooooooo...
I think I've had just about enough rumors for one night.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 3:57 PM PST reply actions  

I agree - shut it down.
Seriously though, did you see the Hargrove interview linked at Prospect Insider?  Any thoughts?  It is a PDF format and I'm not sure how to link it properly.  Here's the link from PI.

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=987A810E4DB817CE

by Jed C on Dec 6, 2006 4:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Argh
I can't take this anymore.  

I need to go do something more relaxing, like dropping acid and running around on the freeway.  

by Jerry on Dec 6, 2006 4:14 PM PST up reply actions  

AJC is saying "Done Deal!"
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=3207

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution's David O'Brien says the Rafael Soriano-for-Horacio Ramirez deal between the Mariners and Braves is a done deal.

"Unbelievable. Maybe it's really Soriano to Atlanta for Ramirez and the compromising pictures John Schuerholz has of Mariners GM Bill Bavasi. Anything as long as it's not truly a one-for-one deal."

That quote's priceless.  Except the price of my soul, which is slowly dying.

by J.W. Pezzino on Dec 6, 2006 5:45 PM PST reply actions  

I'm tired of listening to rotoworld, and
newspapers, and bloggers, and whoever the hell else.

When it comes across ESPN, then it's a done deal.

Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 6, 2006 5:47 PM PST up reply actions  

but their source
link doesn't say anything about soriano all it says is the Braves payroll is top heavy

by Trenchtown2 on Dec 6, 2006 5:57 PM PST up reply actions  

You have to look at the comments
The writer posts in the comments that it's done.

Geoff Baker is reporting it as done in the P-I Winter Meetings Blog.

It's done.

by J.W. Pezzino on Dec 6, 2006 5:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Sexson apparently on the move today?
From Corey Brock's blog

Winter Meetings: So long Schmidt
Well, so much for Jason Schmidt wanting to pitch for the Seattle Mariners.

It looks like the free agent right-hander from Kelso has agreed to a three-year deal worth $47 million with the Los Angeles Dodgers.

If anything, Schmidt -- who, at one point last season, had expressed interest in pitching for the Mariners -- moved FARTHER away from home.

So there.

The Mariners, I believe, will now turn their attention to finding starting pitching the old-fashioned -- and, well this winter anyway, maybe the cheaper -- way by trying to swing a trade.

I'm hearing first baseman Richie Sexson could possibly be on the move by the end of Wednesday. We'll see.

Corey

December 06, 2006 | Permalink | Comments (2)

by BrettJMiller on Dec 6, 2006 5:53 PM PST reply actions  

That was the buzz earlier today
but if Sexson's going anywhere, it won't be until tomorrow. It's already 9pm and they've been working on this retarded Ramirez trade all evening.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 5:56 PM PST up reply actions  

It's the return of the Death Spiral!
Ever since Matt Thornton went away we haven't had much occasion to bring it out.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 5:56 PM PST up reply actions  

different context
The death spiral is so much better when performed by an easy-on-the-eyes female figure skater.
Sports and Bremertonians. Because we can.

by wackomann on Dec 6, 2006 6:02 PM PST up reply actions  

God Dammit Bavasi
John Schuerholz must have got him roaring drunk got him to sign the deal by thinking it was his bar tab

by Trenchtown2 on Dec 6, 2006 6:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Heh
Offseason Adventure, December version.

by Josh @ Lookout Landing on Dec 6, 2006 6:06 PM PST up reply actions  

So...
Who wants to help me start the kill Bill Bavasi foundation?

by BrettJMiller on Dec 6, 2006 5:54 PM PST reply actions  

not necessarily the first time
Though not an idea for a full-on foundation, my blog teammate Jeremy ended a bunch of posts in the winter of 2003-2004 with "Kill" Bill, followed by some one-liner.
Sports and Bremertonians. Because we can.

by wackomann on Dec 6, 2006 6:11 PM PST up reply actions  

espnews
ESPNews is citing Boston's ESPN Radio 890 as reporting the (H) Ramirez-for-Soriano deal.  That's what scrolling across the bottom of the screen, anyway.
Sports and Bremertonians. Because we can.

by wackomann on Dec 6, 2006 6:00 PM PST reply actions  

Hey...if any of you are
looking for any last-minute gift ideas for me, I have one. I'd like Bill Bavasi, our GM, right here tonight. I want him brought from his happy holiday slumber over there in Orlando with all the other rich people and I want him brought right here, with a big ribbon on his head, and I want to look him straight in the eye and I want to tell him what a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey shit he is.

Hallelujah. Holy shit.

Where's the Tylenol?

by tkballer22 on Dec 6, 2006 6:05 PM PST reply actions  

spur
That makes me want to pop my Full Metal Jacket DVD into the player and watch the first half of the movie again.  
Sports and Bremertonians. Because we can.

by wackomann on Dec 6, 2006 6:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Also, I just want to say right now
If a news report comes up in the next 24 hours saying Safeco Field was bombed, that was me. Sorry.

by Corco on Dec 6, 2006 6:12 PM PST reply actions  

Damn straight
At least there's one team in Seattle with a competent front office.

by ningwers on Dec 6, 2006 6:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Seahawks foibles
Well, except for pissing off Steve Hutchinson and breaking up the most dominant offensive line in the NFL... and then signing a future punt returner for the same 7 million they didn't spend on Hutch.  And maybe letting Itula Mili go, because they needed to spend a high draft pick on a tight end with Jerramy Stevens' special kind of skills... (enticing cockpunches!)

by johnbai on Dec 6, 2006 8:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Burleson's a disappointment
but I will always support that contract strictly due to its hilarity.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 8:57 PM PST up reply actions  

strike
Mili never was let go.  Some of the criticism toward the Seahawk brass is valid, but though we're not that far into the Tim Ruskell regime, you can't much argue with the results.  So far.  
Sports and Bremertonians. Because we can.

by wackomann on Dec 6, 2006 10:27 PM PST up reply actions  

and for fucks sake
Burleson will see only 14 million of that contract. God Dammit I am so sick of people saying Burleson was a bad signing its not baseball contracts don't cripple teams.

Sorry had to rant

by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 7, 2006 12:07 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm in denial
There is more to the deal.  Bavasi won't do it just for Ramirez.  There is more to the story. I'm just going to keep repeating this.  Over and over.  It just can't be true.  It can't.

by manyoso on Dec 6, 2006 6:18 PM PST reply actions  

Macon Telegraph from Morris News Service
Although Seattle is initially denying it, there seems to be weight to the idea that the Braves would send oft-injured starter Horacio Ramirez to the Mariners in exchange for reliever Rafael Soriano. Soriano, 27, would provide a viable setup option for closer Bob Wickman. The Braves might also have to give up a prospect to secure the deal for Soriano, who could be groomed to one day replace Wickman.

hope?

by manyoso on Dec 6, 2006 6:21 PM PST reply actions  

It better be a damn good prospect.
Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 6, 2006 6:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Bavasi out of cell phone range
More:

"When asked Wednesday evening whether he had spoken with Seattle general manager Bill Bavasi, Atlanta GM John Schuerholz said that Bavasi was currently out of cellphone range, an indicator they have been talking."

by manyoso on Dec 6, 2006 6:22 PM PST up reply actions  

WTF?
Schuerholz must have built a Bavasi robot-clone, taking Bavasi, tied him in the woods out of cell-phone range, and then brought the robot back to sign the papers.

It's the only way.

by Corco on Dec 6, 2006 6:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Confirmed again with more info
Lake Buena Vista, Fla. — The Braves got the elite setup man they wanted Wednesday when they agreed to trade injury-plagued starting pitcher Horacio Ramirez to Seattle for reliever Rafael Soriano, who has a 2.89 career ERA and 177 strikeouts in 171 innings.
The deal, expected to be announced late Wednesday or Thursday, was confirmed by an official with one of the teams. It doesn't guarantee that the Braves will keep first baseman Adam LaRoche, but the Braves withdrew their offer of LaRoche for Pirates closer Mike Gonzalez.

by manyoso on Dec 6, 2006 6:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Ramirez has been notified
"I knew it was a possibility, but it's still shocking to me," Ramirez, 27, said after a reporter broke the news to him that he'd been traded. "This is really all I know in professional baseball — the Braves are the ones who gave me the opportunity in '97. But, you know, it's a business. What can you say?"

This. Seems. Like. The. Final. Nail.

Damn.

Damn, Damn.

by manyoso on Dec 6, 2006 6:26 PM PST up reply actions  

That's odd.
Is Gonzalez not healthy?

There's so much misinformation flying around that it's not even worth trying to sort through anymore. I do not envy people who work in MLB front offices.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 6:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Just Refreshed Baker's Blog...
The "done deal" story is gone.
Alvin Davis's number should be retired.

by Doug Taylor on Dec 6, 2006 6:24 PM PST reply actions  

Check That...
It looks like they just cut it and moved it to the main page.
Alvin Davis's number should be retired.

by Doug Taylor on Dec 6, 2006 6:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Commonality?
Anyone else see the common patter where we compliment Bavasi, and he promptly does something moronic?

I thought I'd post some meaningful data to backup my theory, but came to the realization I don't have any data. Just Carl Everett, Jarred Washburn, now this? Jeesh.

by Justise on Dec 6, 2006 6:25 PM PST reply actions  

I'm going back into John Q Mariner fan mode
on this one. I don't care what newspapers say, I don't care what Dave Cameron's sources say, or Jason Churchill's, I don't care what rotoworld says.

As far as I'm concerned, the only true word, is the word of seattlemariners.com and the word of Bill Bavasi himself in a live press conference. Until one of those two sources tells me this deal is official, I believe nothing!

Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 6, 2006 6:38 PM PST reply actions  

Quick! Somebody find Vlad Guerrero
and have him line another ball off Raffy's melon!(without killing him of course,just enough to put him in the hosbital again for a day or two till this all blows over)
Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 6, 2006 6:45 PM PST up reply actions  

And if you believe Seattle Times...
Then the physicals are all done and the deal went down.

"There were physicals, but they're all done and it's going through," the source said."

Maybe the M's got instant buyers remorse as soon as they agreed to the deal in principal and perhaps someone in the organization was hoping that the physicals would fail and they'd have a get out of jail free card.

by manyoso on Dec 6, 2006 6:46 PM PST up reply actions  

this is such a trainwreck
it's horrible and you dont want it to happen, but you know its going to happen and theres no looking away.

by Matthew on Dec 6, 2006 6:46 PM PST reply actions  

I wanna not believe
But in my heart of hearts I know this is going to happen.

You said it yourself Jeff, God hates the M's!

by manyoso on Dec 6, 2006 6:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Ugly trade
This just can't be the final step.  I'll throw one out there: now trade Washburn and Sexson to the Yanks for Giambi, Cabrera, and something.  Take Cabrera, package with Clement, trade for Bonderman.  Sorry, this stupid-assed move has me grasping for straws, Bavasi had better do something real shiney in the next couple of days.

by billy1 on Dec 6, 2006 7:15 PM PST reply actions  

Maybe I'm An Eternal Optimist...
But does anyone else think it's strange that there hasn't been anything official said about this?  
Alvin Davis's number should be retired.

by Doug Taylor on Dec 6, 2006 7:16 PM PST reply actions  

No
It's 10:30 at night on the East coast, nobody is doing a physical at 10:30 at night.
Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 6, 2006 7:25 PM PST up reply actions  

The Physicals Were Said To Be Done Hours Ago...
And Ramirez was notified he was being traded by a reporter.  Unless he was playing dumb, you would think he'd have heard as well.
Alvin Davis's number should be retired, so Mike Hargrove can't defile it any longer.

by Doug Taylor on Dec 6, 2006 7:38 PM PST up reply actions  

This sucks
I always thought that bavasi was getting a bad rap but apparantly I was wrong.

by tkjinak on Dec 6, 2006 7:18 PM PST reply actions  

That poll...
is pretty reminiscent of the SSS poll upon acquiring Matt Thornton. The question was "How much will Matt Thornton suck?"

The answer? "A lot."

Turned out to be quite wrong. Maybe the Mariners think they can fix Horacio, or something along those lines. The deal may not be as bad as it seems. Give it time.

by Stealfirstbase on Dec 6, 2006 7:24 PM PST reply actions  

Fix him?
He's not broken. He's just not good.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 7:26 PM PST up reply actions  

If only he were broken
Atlanta could keep him live with it.

by Josh @ Lookout Landing on Dec 6, 2006 7:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Anyone know...
the address to the fire bill bavasi blog?  He's really done it this time.  Tommorrow's front page picture in the PI sports section just might be bavasi with a terribly bloodied up nose...that would make my morning...

by tmoney96 on Dec 6, 2006 7:27 PM PST reply actions  

Gonzalez-LaRoche trade officially dead.
Per mlb.com
Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 6, 2006 7:32 PM PST reply actions  

Good...
Let's hope it's because he's headed to Seattle.

by PLU Tim on Dec 6, 2006 7:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Yah, they didn't want to announce LaRoche
was part of the Horacio <--> Soriano deal before they personally notified LaRoche or something...

by manyoso on Dec 6, 2006 7:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Of course
They just stole Soriano for nothing...

by manyoso on Dec 6, 2006 7:34 PM PST up reply actions  

We were all talking Manny, Hudson, LaRoche...
And Bavasi is thinking injury plagued #4 Horacio.

by manyoso on Dec 6, 2006 7:33 PM PST reply actions  

Fuck me in the ear
This deal better not be done.

by PLU Tim on Dec 6, 2006 7:33 PM PST reply actions  

Family Guy reference?
or just picking a random orifice?
Willie Bloomquist and Mike Hargrove suck

by Mariner John on Dec 6, 2006 7:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, our friends over at Talking Chop...
are giddy as a bunch of school girls just invited to the prom.

Good on you Bavasi for making the fans happy. Braves fans, yes, but then you can't please everyone, right??!!

by manyoso on Dec 6, 2006 7:38 PM PST reply actions  

WARNING! This'll make you wanna cry...
or punch a hole in some walls.
I would rate this as a VERY GOOD trade for the Braves. We pick up a critical reliever who we will control for two more years before he becomes a free agent, and we traded from a position of strength - left-handed starting pitching. Honestly, I feel we got the better end of this deal. With the prices for even marginal relievers skyrocketing, we secured one of the best in the game for a pitcher who has yet to prove he's anything other than a back of the rotation injury-prone starter.

by manyoso on Dec 6, 2006 7:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Um...
Soriano has yet to prove he's anything other than an injury-prone setup guy. He's considerably more prone to injury than Ramirez, actually.

Yeah, this deal could suck. I'll admit that. The problem is that the market for starting pitching is expensive this offseason, and Bavasi decided to burn a very good and very injury prone setup guy to get some instead of $40 million for four years. (Go look at Eaton's xFIPs and Ramirez's, and you tell me who's the better pitcher.)

I'm betting that Bavasi will not "win" the Zito sweepstakes, and we'll be left with a rotation of:

Felix
Washburn
Ramirez
Thomson and/or Ohka
Ohka or Baek/Woods/etc.

when it all goes down. Plus some extra cash to do different things with than toss money at FAs. One could argue that given a possible rotation of:

Felix
Schmidt
Meche/Lilly/Eaton
Washburn
Baek/Woods/etc.

AND keeping Soriano, Bavasi didn't do too badly.

by eponymous coward on Dec 6, 2006 8:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Ok we get it
You're the only one who likes the trade.
Willie Bloomquist and Mike Hargrove suck

by Mariner John on Dec 6, 2006 8:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Here's the problem
"Plus some extra cash to do different things with than toss money at FAs."
Like what? If the money isn't going to be spent on players, what will it be spent on?

by Rollo Tomasi on Dec 6, 2006 8:13 PM PST up reply actions  

You can't be serious
There is just no way that you can argue that this trade is anything but a complete slap in the face.  

Unless you think that Ramirez will magically turn into a useful player.  

But every sign points to that not being the case.  His peripheral stats suck.  He is injury prone.  It is much more likely that he is a LOOGY by August.  

Seriously, THIS TRADE SMELLS LIKE BIGFOOTS DICK!

by Jerry on Dec 6, 2006 8:14 PM PST up reply actions  

I think I just threw up in my mouth
looking at this:

Felix
Washburn
Ramirez
Thomson and/or Ohka
Ohka or Baek/Woods/etc.

That is a last-place rotation, no question.  LAST PLACE.

Shit, if bearing through another losing season means that Bavasi and Co. are gone, I'll do it.  F*ing idiocy...

by tait644 on Dec 6, 2006 8:26 PM PST up reply actions  

No Shit..Really
I thought we were the winners in this one.  Man this deal blows.  I'm just going to stop paying attention for a while cause this is just painful to think about.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 6, 2006 8:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Talking Chop
Sure, they love Soriano (and who wouldn't?), but looking through the site, they have some good things to say about Ramirez.

I think we're being overly negative here.  It's a high price to pay, yes, but Soriano's wasn't going to yield an elite SP, IMHO.

Sure, it's nice to dream about what fantastic package he coulda been a part of, but when the dominos start to fall, I can't come down on Bavasi too hard for wanting to make a move before he's left with nothing but a whole lotta Woods and Baek.

by worley on Dec 6, 2006 8:20 PM PST up reply actions  

True
I suppose it's possible that he didn't find anyone who would give more than Ramirez. In that case, I would have rather kept Soriano, though.
Willie Bloomquist and Mike Hargrove suck

by Mariner John on Dec 6, 2006 8:21 PM PST up reply actions  

The only upside
The only thing positive in this is that it might get this stupid fucking front office fired soon.  

Congratulations Bill Bavasi!  You have successfully made this organization a laughingstock!  

Nice work, asshole!

by Jerry on Dec 6, 2006 7:45 PM PST reply actions  

John Hickey...
says, at least for now, there is no deal.

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/archives/109437.asp

There is hope yet.

Alvin Davis's number should be retired, so Mike Hargrove can't defile it any longer.

by Doug Taylor on Dec 6, 2006 7:57 PM PST reply actions  

That was...
90 minutes ago.

Times says the deal/physicals is done.

by PLU Tim on Dec 6, 2006 8:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Look at the timestamp
... this was much earlier this evening.  There are now 38 articles on google news all reporting this as a done deal.  Among them are the Seattle Times, the Seattle PI, the Atlanta Journal Constitution, MSNBC, ESPN, CBS News, and the wire services.

It is fantasy to think this hasn't gone down.  Either that or this is the biggest media screw-up in MLB trade news in quite some time.  Sure, maybe it is possible we don't have all the players involved.  Perhaps the M's will pick up another prospect or a PTBNL, but the deal was struck at least in principle pending physicals.  That much is sure.  And people are reporting the physicals are all done and all that is left is an announcement by Bavasi.

Hope. Is. Dead.

by manyoso on Dec 6, 2006 8:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Prospect
Jason Churchill is reporting that there is a prospect in the deal.  If that prospect is from the Mariners, I am concerned that I am going to start kicking puppies.  

I guess that all we can do is hope that the M's got a decent prospect back in the deal.  

The Braves have a pretty good farm system.  Maybe this trade isn't quite as bad as it looks now.  

But after the turn of events today, I can't really see how this offseason will be anything besides a total bust.  

by Jerry on Dec 6, 2006 8:09 PM PST reply actions  

lol
washburn is our number 2 and ramierz is our number 3?  Its gonna be a LOONNNNNNNNGGGGGGGG year.

by tkjinak on Dec 6, 2006 8:11 PM PST reply actions  

Bavasi to Schuerholz:
"Merry Christmas. I hope you like it."

by JLC on Dec 6, 2006 8:11 PM PST reply actions  

I don't get this
you think trading adam jones would be a mortal sin, a guy who is cheap and young but also unproven.  But trading our cheap young studly pitcher is a good thing.  What am I missing here?

by tkjinak on Dec 6, 2006 8:13 PM PST reply actions  

I guess 27 is young
Willie Bloomquist and Mike Hargrove suck

by Mariner John on Dec 6, 2006 8:18 PM PST up reply actions  

A thought
Maybe you're missing Bavasi's recurring nightmare of back to back Baek and Woods starts all year?

Blech.  It was a bit of a panic move, but we had to get help in the rotation.  Ramirez is help in the rotation.

by worley on Dec 6, 2006 8:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Pineiro could have been:
"Help in the rotation".

You don't get an arm just for the sake of getting an arm.  

Soriano >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ramirez

by tait644 on Dec 6, 2006 8:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, you have to have five guys in the rotation
... and I'm pretty positive Soriano wasn't going to be in the rotation.

Pineiro?  Ramirez should be a huge upgrade over him, but I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

by worley on Dec 6, 2006 9:16 PM PST up reply actions  

John Thomsom
Thomson is better.  And he doesn't cost an elite setup reliever.  

There are other options out there as well.  

Bavasi got scared and panicked.  He was talking to the Braves about a good deal, and, after it fell though, he decided to make a bad deal.  

Bavasi must go.  

by Jerry on Dec 6, 2006 8:31 PM PST up reply actions  

We may get Thomson too...
... after all, there are still two rotation spots to fill. :)

The difference, of course, would be that Ramirez is under club control for two years after 2007, whereas Thomson would have a relatively expensive option for 2008 and be a FA after that.

It's a good point, but if you think long term, this adds an arm for 3 years.  That's not going to make a difference now, but if Ramirez ends up doing well, he'll help bridge the gap between our sad state of affairs, pitching-wise, in the high minors and the next influx of talent that'll be coming up in a few years.

by worley on Dec 6, 2006 9:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, Thomson's a short commitment
but you can almost always find similar arms in any market. It just means Bavasi would have to sign three or four cheap veteran #4's instead of using the same one guy. Bit of an inconvenience, but better than throwing away Rafael Soriano for someone else's garbage.

If Ramirez ends up doing well...well, I'll just say that I don't see any indication that he's about to step up his game. He's already 27, his stuff isn't good, and his track record is the very definition of mediocrity. Only a miracle can save Bavasi on this one.

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 9:25 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't see this as crippling
Though my biggest problem is that it sounds like we just GAVE AWAY Rafael Soriano instead of using him to get something that can really help another part of our team.  How is H. Ramirez any more preferable over Woods/Baek/Fierabend?

by ThundaPC on Dec 6, 2006 8:22 PM PST reply actions  

It is crippling...
Because these are the kind of dumb moves that turn a team into the Royals.  You gave up actual talent to fill a back of the rotation spot.

"How is H. Ramirez any more preferable over Woods/Baek/Fierabend?"

He is not, at least when you consider you have to give up one of the best setup men in baseball.

by manyoso on Dec 6, 2006 8:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Giving up a bunch of talent for Manny
Would've been crippling.

This trade is spending Soriano value for something that should cost Sean Green or Jon Huber value.  Giving up Soriano for a #3 guy at best, Joel's long lost brother at the worst?

This type of move is discouraging.  Even though Bavasi is staying away from paying for massive long-term contracts he still seems fit to overpay.

by ThundaPC on Dec 6, 2006 8:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Wow
This pitcher almost gives up as many walks as he gets strikeouts. He's a noob.

by nnnick on Dec 6, 2006 8:24 PM PST reply actions  

All you who are saying this move had to be made
to save the rotation:

Soriano as a starter would be better than Ramirez.

by Rollo Tomasi on Dec 6, 2006 8:28 PM PST reply actions  

I think its most annoying
cause we thought we were getting Hudson and LaRoche and turns out it wasn't so.  Its like thinking that big box under the tree is a PS3 and you open it only to find underwear.  Sure its useful but you can get underwear from anywhere and probably get by with what you already had.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 6, 2006 8:32 PM PST reply actions  

Ok, what now
Can anyone see any scenario where this offseason works out well?  

What can Bavasi do now?  

I am stumped.  I am pretty much a big dork, and tend to think about different types of moves the M's can make to create a good team.  

Right now, all good options seem to be gone.

Trade Sexson?  Sure, but for what?  

Free agency?  Who is there?  Zito?  Meche?  Weaver?  

Add offense instead?  Who could they go after?  Bonds?  Floyd?  

I just don't see any good options.  Maybe we can hose the Orioles just as badly as the Braves just cornholed us, but that just doesn't seem likely.  

All the thing we say about the Orioles: thats what other clubs are saying about us right now.  

by Jerry on Dec 6, 2006 8:35 PM PST reply actions  

I'm telling you guys
we're going to buy the twins.  Sure its a huge upfront cost but it is a steal in this FA market and if we win the next 3 WS we can make it work fiscally too.

by Edgar for Pres on Dec 6, 2006 8:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Good question
I don't see any of the remaining FA pitchers being better than Thomson on a one year deal, so I say we jump on that.

We might also consider blowing off the Baek/Woods/Feirabend spot in the rotation and trading Broussard to the Orioles for Rodrigo Lopez.

That'd leave us with essentially four relatively proven back of the rotation pitchers (Washburn, Ramirez, Thomson, Lopez) and Felix.  Not sexy, but it could be the type of staff that's consistently good but not great, giving us a chance to be in every game.

I don't see us getting Bonds, so Cliff Floyd might be the last move.  Sure, he's not a star or anything, but with Floyd/Guillen/Snelling/Ibanez rotating among the OF corners and the DH spot, we're reasonably solid offensively.

Wouldn't make us a guaranteed playoff team, necessarily, but avoids long term contracts and gives us a shot to win the AL West if things go well.

by worley on Dec 6, 2006 9:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Thats a last place team
That team would be a long-shot to finish 3rd in the AL West.  

by Jerry on Dec 6, 2006 9:13 PM PST up reply actions  

It's on the official site
Link

4th straight last place finish, here we come!

Can we just skip ahead to about 2009 or so when our rotation consists of Felix-Morrow-Butler-Tillman-Feirabend?

Aici zace un om despre care nu se ştie prea mult.

by Goose on Dec 6, 2006 8:51 PM PST reply actions  

That'll never happen
By 2009, Bavasi will have traded at LEAST half of those away for garbage.  Mark my word!

by tkballer22 on Dec 6, 2006 9:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

By reading a game thread of your own volition you agree to accept all liability for any and all damage done to your delicate sensibilities.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Moar_bacon_small
Everything I Know About Jesus Montero

Recent FanPosts

Small
OTDOD - Early February Edition
Agentejebaox3_small
A Statistical Analysis of Mariners' Fan Support
Small
Who will have a better season?
Claw_small
BA's Top 10 M's Prospects
Wbc_029_small
Friday Morning Music Thread
Small
Munenori Kawasaki Predictions!!!
Small
The Longevity and Future Success of Felix Hernandez.
Small
The present vs future conundrum
Small
2012 Seattle Mariners: Playoff Team

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Sexy People

Wbc_029_small Jeff Sullivan

Small Matthew