A Comparison
Horacio Ramirez, Career (NL):
K%: 11.3%
uBB%: 8.1%
GB%: 49.7%
HR/FB%:* 13.7%
Joel Pineiro, 2006 (AL):
K%: 11.8%
uBB%: 6.9%
GB%: 47.5%
HR/FB%: 13.4%
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AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Worse...
I have to go sleep on the back of what might be a bad trade now. The temptation to stay awake until Jeff posts a more positive rumour is strong...
Good Lord
Well, as much as I hate this trade...
I'm confident that Ramirez is better
The fact that they're this close is terrifying.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 2:46 PM PST up reply actions
Do you think this means
by Jed C on Dec 6, 2006 2:52 PM PST up reply actions
Joel won't be back.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 2:53 PM PST up reply actions
Oh no
Here's his last ten starts last year:
JUN 11 @HOU 0 1 5.06 0 1.2 6 6 1 1
JUN 22 TOR 0 0 4.32 0 6.2 7 1 6 5
JUN 27 @NYY 1 0 3.48 0 8.0 7 0 1 3
JUL 02 BAL 1 0 3.47 0 8.0 7 3 0 4
JUL 07 CIN 0 1 4.65 0 1.0 7 7 1 0
JUL 17 @STL 1 0 4.39 0 5.0 2 1 3 0
JUL 23 @PHI 0 0 4.04 0 7.0 10 1 1 5
JUL 28 NYM 0 1 4.52 0 3.1 7 5 5 1
AUG 02 @PIT 0 0 4.35 0 6.2 5 2 3 4
AUG 07 PHI 0 1 4.48 0 4.0 1 3 3 3
Hey, he beat Baltimore AND the Yankees! He's a proven winner! Surely this success will transfer over full-time to the AL!
GB%?
Ramirez
2004 53.6%
2005 48.1%
2006 53.8%
Pineiro
2004 43.4
2005 45.3
2006 47.5
Fangraphs.
Those two years at 53+, I like a little. The two at 48, I don't.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 2:57 PM PST up reply actions
53%
by Josh @ Lookout Landing on Dec 6, 2006 2:59 PM PST up reply actions
Ugh...
If the Braves are willing to give up LaRoche for Mike Gonzalez, you think they might have been willing to give him up for Soriano. Except if you're willing to take Ramirez back instead. Idiotic.
Get LaRoche, dump Sexson elsewhere for somebody, anybody better than Ramirez, and sign another starter. Jesus.
by Egaas on Dec 6, 2006 2:56 PM PST reply actions
hmm
by 88fingerslukee on Dec 6, 2006 3:04 PM PST up reply actions
M's deny deal in place
Please Please Please
Deny Everything?
Ramirez isn't the worst pitcher in the majors, but there's no reason to give up Soriano so he can have an off-season competition and laugh at Joel.
by Josh @ Lookout Landing on Dec 6, 2006 3:10 PM PST up reply actions
Everybody cross your fingers.
I've never wished so hard for something in my entire life. And that includes Eliza Dushku.
Not just Kate Beckinsale
--Stewie Griffin AND Josh Beckett
by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Dec 6, 2006 3:10 PM PST up reply actions
Finally
No way
by jimmimoose1 on Dec 6, 2006 3:38 PM PST up reply actions
Totally not kidding.
--Stewie Griffin AND Josh Beckett
by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Dec 6, 2006 3:49 PM PST up reply actions
Vampire teeth
I'm an emotional wreck right now.
Good greif.
Could this mean....
Don't they always deny it?
YES!
Perspective People.
Soriano is an amazing arm, but he is also damaged goods. He has not proven he can stay healthy for an extended amount of time. I think everyone is overvaluing him.
Of course that doesn't mean throw him away, but to trade him at this time you are not going to get his "Full value" IMO
I don't think anyone's opposed
But Horacio Ramirez?
That's...that's stupid. You can absolutely do better than Horacio Ramirez when you're floating Soriano on the open market.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 3:15 PM PST up reply actions
maybe we should chill a minute....
by jojo on Dec 6, 2006 3:14 PM PST reply actions
Oh, I've got perspective...
He was lights out last season and if true, he will be the lead in the Braves rotation.
I think it's time to firebomb Scout.com
firebombing scout.com
Anyone hear me on this? My goals of nutting up and focusing on work have been shattered.
I've got exactly the same problem.
Uh huh.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 3:24 PM PST up reply actions
Winter League
5.1 IP, 3 runs.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 3:19 PM PST up reply actions
per Rosenthal and Rotoworld
Scout.com's Bill Shanks reported that it was a done deal. Rosenthal doesn't go that far, but it's obviously a legitimate rumor. The Mariners would be crazy to make this trade without getting a second quality player in return. Soriano is a health risk, but he's also one of baseball's best relievers when he's on. Ramirez is a No. 4 starter.
that article occurs approx. 5 minutes before
Please
"The Mariners would be crazy to make this trade without getting a second quality player in return."
AMEN!
I don't think this is going to happen as reported
I think you're spot on
Jason seems to think the possibility is non-zero
From the comments over at PI
December 6th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
Okay, I sorta lied.
I just got an email saying the Braves are denying it, too."
I believe this more than the M's FO...
If you want to feel okay
What a weird afternoon this has been.
That's a really well-written, comprehensive story
Should I go sleep now and pretend it's happening? At midnight PT about twenty new blogs and five thousand comments will have been posted. I might have finished reading them by the time you guys get up again.
Top stuff :o)
Am I the only one who think it would be hilarious
Soriano for Penny....
Now that a clever birdy leaked the BS offer from Atlanta, the true bidding war for Soriano will begin...
by jojo on Dec 6, 2006 3:47 PM PST reply actions
And on the manny front:
Michael Silverman says the Mariners refused to part with J.J. Putz and Adam Jones and apparently made Putz untouchable in talks.
Use the whole quote:
Very true.
I didn't include the rest of that quote
But
Uh...
Putz has zero DL trips.
Soriano wasn't able to stay off the DL in 2003, 2004, 2005 or 2006 (and that's not counting the concussion- he went on the DL in July).
The odds that you'll be using another pitcher for your closer for a 2-6 week stretch of 2007 are MUCH higher if you use Soriano in that role instead of Putz. That's a big factor in their worth.
by eponymous coward on Dec 6, 2006 6:39 PM PST up reply actions
The statement is true
by Graham MacAree on Dec 6, 2006 11:36 PM PST up reply actions
All well and good
Compare the two over a more recent period and that gap would be far tighter, I'd wager.
If that were true...
Genius...
I agree - shut it down.
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=987A810E4DB817CE
by Jed C on Dec 6, 2006 4:06 PM PST up reply actions
AJC is saying "Done Deal!"
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution's David O'Brien says the Rafael Soriano-for-Horacio Ramirez deal between the Mariners and Braves is a done deal.
"Unbelievable. Maybe it's really Soriano to Atlanta for Ramirez and the compromising pictures John Schuerholz has of Mariners GM Bill Bavasi. Anything as long as it's not truly a one-for-one deal."
That quote's priceless. Except the price of my soul, which is slowly dying.
I checked that link.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 5:46 PM PST up reply actions
I'm tired of listening to rotoworld, and
When it comes across ESPN, then it's a done deal.
Looks like the update was at 22:30 EST
It's the top headline of the page on this link...
but their source
You have to look at the comments
Geoff Baker is reporting it as done in the P-I Winter Meetings Blog.
It's done.
Sexson apparently on the move today?
Winter Meetings: So long Schmidt
Well, so much for Jason Schmidt wanting to pitch for the Seattle Mariners.
It looks like the free agent right-hander from Kelso has agreed to a three-year deal worth $47 million with the Los Angeles Dodgers.
If anything, Schmidt -- who, at one point last season, had expressed interest in pitching for the Mariners -- moved FARTHER away from home.
So there.
The Mariners, I believe, will now turn their attention to finding starting pitching the old-fashioned -- and, well this winter anyway, maybe the cheaper -- way by trying to swing a trade.
I'm hearing first baseman Richie Sexson could possibly be on the move by the end of Wednesday. We'll see.
Corey
December 06, 2006 | Permalink | Comments (2)
That was the buzz earlier today
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 5:56 PM PST up reply actions
Geoff Baker is reporting it too...
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2003453703_webwintermeet03.html
Please no.
It's the return of the Death Spiral!

by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 5:56 PM PST up reply actions
different context
God Dammit Bavasi
Heh
by Josh @ Lookout Landing on Dec 6, 2006 6:06 PM PST up reply actions
not necessarily the first time
espnews
Hey...if any of you are
Hallelujah. Holy shit.
Where's the Tylenol?
spur
Also, I just want to say right now
Seahawks foibles
Burleson's a disappointment
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 8:57 PM PST up reply actions
strike
and for fucks sake
Sorry had to rant
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 7, 2006 12:07 AM PST up reply actions
actually only $5.25 million guaranteed
by Scruffy Lefty on Dec 7, 2006 12:26 AM PST up reply actions
I'm in denial
Macon Telegraph from Morris News Service
Although Seattle is initially denying it, there seems to be weight to the idea that the Braves would send oft-injured starter Horacio Ramirez to the Mariners in exchange for reliever Rafael Soriano. Soriano, 27, would provide a viable setup option for closer Bob Wickman. The Braves might also have to give up a prospect to secure the deal for Soriano, who could be groomed to one day replace Wickman.
Bavasi out of cell phone range
"When asked Wednesday evening whether he had spoken with Seattle general manager Bill Bavasi, Atlanta GM John Schuerholz said that Bavasi was currently out of cellphone range, an indicator they have been talking."
Confirmed again with more info
Lake Buena Vista, Fla. — The Braves got the elite setup man they wanted Wednesday when they agreed to trade injury-plagued starting pitcher Horacio Ramirez to Seattle for reliever Rafael Soriano, who has a 2.89 career ERA and 177 strikeouts in 171 innings.
The deal, expected to be announced late Wednesday or Thursday, was confirmed by an official with one of the teams. It doesn't guarantee that the Braves will keep first baseman Adam LaRoche, but the Braves withdrew their offer of LaRoche for Pirates closer Mike Gonzalez.
Ramirez has been notified
"I knew it was a possibility, but it's still shocking to me," Ramirez, 27, said after a reporter broke the news to him that he'd been traded. "This is really all I know in professional baseball — the Braves are the ones who gave me the opportunity in '97. But, you know, it's a business. What can you say?"
This. Seems. Like. The. Final. Nail.
Damn.
Damn, Damn.
That's odd.
There's so much misinformation flying around that it's not even worth trying to sort through anymore. I do not envy people who work in MLB front offices.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 6:26 PM PST up reply actions
Sources were all over the map.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 6:32 PM PST up reply actions
Seems only thing not "done"....
Which, apparently, have been completed now. So reports the Seattle Times.
that story directly contradicts another story
dont have it on me
Just Refreshed Baker's Blog...
Check That...
Commonality?
I thought I'd post some meaningful data to backup my theory, but came to the realization I don't have any data. Just Carl Everett, Jarred Washburn, now this? Jeesh.
I'm going back into John Q Mariner fan mode
As far as I'm concerned, the only true word, is the word of seattlemariners.com and the word of Bill Bavasi himself in a live press conference. Until one of those two sources tells me this deal is official, I believe nothing!
Quick! Somebody find Vlad Guerrero
if only he hadnt been
And if you believe Seattle Times...
"There were physicals, but they're all done and it's going through," the source said."
Maybe the M's got instant buyers remorse as soon as they agreed to the deal in principal and perhaps someone in the organization was hoping that the physicals would fail and they'd have a get out of jail free card.
this is such a trainwreck
I wanna not believe
You said it yourself Jeff, God hates the M's!
Ugly trade
by billy1 on Dec 6, 2006 7:15 PM PST reply actions
Maybe I'm An Eternal Optimist...
No
The Physicals Were Said To Be Done Hours Ago...
This sucks
by tkjinak on Dec 6, 2006 7:18 PM PST reply actions
That poll...
The answer? "A lot."
Turned out to be quite wrong. Maybe the Mariners think they can fix Horacio, or something along those lines. The deal may not be as bad as it seems. Give it time.
Fix him?
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 7:26 PM PST up reply actions
If only he were broken
by Josh @ Lookout Landing on Dec 6, 2006 7:28 PM PST up reply actions
Anyone know...
by tmoney96 on Dec 6, 2006 7:27 PM PST reply actions
Gonzalez-LaRoche trade officially dead.
Good...
Yah, they didn't want to announce LaRoche
We were all talking Manny, Hudson, LaRoche...
Fuck me in the ear
Well, our friends over at Talking Chop...
Good on you Bavasi for making the fans happy. Braves fans, yes, but then you can't please everyone, right??!!
WARNING! This'll make you wanna cry...
I would rate this as a VERY GOOD trade for the Braves. We pick up a critical reliever who we will control for two more years before he becomes a free agent, and we traded from a position of strength - left-handed starting pitching. Honestly, I feel we got the better end of this deal. With the prices for even marginal relievers skyrocketing, we secured one of the best in the game for a pitcher who has yet to prove he's anything other than a back of the rotation injury-prone starter.
Um...
Yeah, this deal could suck. I'll admit that. The problem is that the market for starting pitching is expensive this offseason, and Bavasi decided to burn a very good and very injury prone setup guy to get some instead of $40 million for four years. (Go look at Eaton's xFIPs and Ramirez's, and you tell me who's the better pitcher.)
I'm betting that Bavasi will not "win" the Zito sweepstakes, and we'll be left with a rotation of:
Felix
Washburn
Ramirez
Thomson and/or Ohka
Ohka or Baek/Woods/etc.
when it all goes down. Plus some extra cash to do different things with than toss money at FAs. One could argue that given a possible rotation of:
Felix
Schmidt
Meche/Lilly/Eaton
Washburn
Baek/Woods/etc.
AND keeping Soriano, Bavasi didn't do too badly.
by eponymous coward on Dec 6, 2006 8:06 PM PST up reply actions
Here's the problem
Like what? If the money isn't going to be spent on players, what will it be spent on?
You can't be serious
Unless you think that Ramirez will magically turn into a useful player.
But every sign points to that not being the case. His peripheral stats suck. He is injury prone. It is much more likely that he is a LOOGY by August.
Seriously, THIS TRADE SMELLS LIKE BIGFOOTS DICK!
I think I just threw up in my mouth
Felix
Washburn
Ramirez
Thomson and/or Ohka
Ohka or Baek/Woods/etc.
That is a last-place rotation, no question. LAST PLACE.
Shit, if bearing through another losing season means that Bavasi and Co. are gone, I'll do it. F*ing idiocy...
No Shit..Really
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 6, 2006 8:27 PM PST up reply actions
Talking Chop
I think we're being overly negative here. It's a high price to pay, yes, but Soriano's wasn't going to yield an elite SP, IMHO.
Sure, it's nice to dream about what fantastic package he coulda been a part of, but when the dominos start to fall, I can't come down on Bavasi too hard for wanting to make a move before he's left with nothing but a whole lotta Woods and Baek.
by worley on Dec 6, 2006 8:20 PM PST up reply actions
True
The only upside
Congratulations Bill Bavasi! You have successfully made this organization a laughingstock!
Nice work, asshole!
John Hickey...
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/archives/109437.asp
There is hope yet.
That was...
Times says the deal/physicals is done.
Look at the timestamp
It is fantasy to think this hasn't gone down. Either that or this is the biggest media screw-up in MLB trade news in quite some time. Sure, maybe it is possible we don't have all the players involved. Perhaps the M's will pick up another prospect or a PTBNL, but the deal was struck at least in principle pending physicals. That much is sure. And people are reporting the physicals are all done and all that is left is an announcement by Bavasi.
Hope. Is. Dead.
Prospect
I guess that all we can do is hope that the M's got a decent prospect back in the deal.
The Braves have a pretty good farm system. Maybe this trade isn't quite as bad as it looks now.
But after the turn of events today, I can't really see how this offseason will be anything besides a total bust.
lol
by tkjinak on Dec 6, 2006 8:11 PM PST reply actions
I don't get this
by tkjinak on Dec 6, 2006 8:13 PM PST reply actions
A thought
Blech. It was a bit of a panic move, but we had to get help in the rotation. Ramirez is help in the rotation.
by worley on Dec 6, 2006 8:23 PM PST up reply actions
Pineiro could have been:
You don't get an arm just for the sake of getting an arm.
Soriano >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ramirez
Well, you have to have five guys in the rotation
Pineiro? Ramirez should be a huge upgrade over him, but I suppose we'll have to wait and see.
by worley on Dec 6, 2006 9:16 PM PST up reply actions
John Thomsom
There are other options out there as well.
Bavasi got scared and panicked. He was talking to the Braves about a good deal, and, after it fell though, he decided to make a bad deal.
Bavasi must go.
We may get Thomson too...
The difference, of course, would be that Ramirez is under club control for two years after 2007, whereas Thomson would have a relatively expensive option for 2008 and be a FA after that.
It's a good point, but if you think long term, this adds an arm for 3 years. That's not going to make a difference now, but if Ramirez ends up doing well, he'll help bridge the gap between our sad state of affairs, pitching-wise, in the high minors and the next influx of talent that'll be coming up in a few years.
by worley on Dec 6, 2006 9:19 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, Thomson's a short commitment
If Ramirez ends up doing well...well, I'll just say that I don't see any indication that he's about to step up his game. He's already 27, his stuff isn't good, and his track record is the very definition of mediocrity. Only a miracle can save Bavasi on this one.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 6, 2006 9:25 PM PST up reply actions
I don't see this as crippling
It is crippling...
"How is H. Ramirez any more preferable over Woods/Baek/Fierabend?"
He is not, at least when you consider you have to give up one of the best setup men in baseball.
Giving up a bunch of talent for Manny
This trade is spending Soriano value for something that should cost Sean Green or Jon Huber value. Giving up Soriano for a #3 guy at best, Joel's long lost brother at the worst?
This type of move is discouraging. Even though Bavasi is staying away from paying for massive long-term contracts he still seems fit to overpay.
Wow
by nnnick on Dec 6, 2006 8:24 PM PST reply actions
All you who are saying this move had to be made
Soriano as a starter would be better than Ramirez.
I think its most annoying
Ok, what now
What can Bavasi do now?
I am stumped. I am pretty much a big dork, and tend to think about different types of moves the M's can make to create a good team.
Right now, all good options seem to be gone.
Trade Sexson? Sure, but for what?
Free agency? Who is there? Zito? Meche? Weaver?
Add offense instead? Who could they go after? Bonds? Floyd?
I just don't see any good options. Maybe we can hose the Orioles just as badly as the Braves just cornholed us, but that just doesn't seem likely.
All the thing we say about the Orioles: thats what other clubs are saying about us right now.
I'm telling you guys
by Edgar for Pres on Dec 6, 2006 8:45 PM PST up reply actions
Good question
We might also consider blowing off the Baek/Woods/Feirabend spot in the rotation and trading Broussard to the Orioles for Rodrigo Lopez.
That'd leave us with essentially four relatively proven back of the rotation pitchers (Washburn, Ramirez, Thomson, Lopez) and Felix. Not sexy, but it could be the type of staff that's consistently good but not great, giving us a chance to be in every game.
I don't see us getting Bonds, so Cliff Floyd might be the last move. Sure, he's not a star or anything, but with Floyd/Guillen/Snelling/Ibanez rotating among the OF corners and the DH spot, we're reasonably solid offensively.
Wouldn't make us a guaranteed playoff team, necessarily, but avoids long term contracts and gives us a shot to win the AL West if things go well.
by worley on Dec 6, 2006 9:10 PM PST up reply actions
Thats a last place team
It's on the official site
4th straight last place finish, here we come!
Can we just skip ahead to about 2009 or so when our rotation consists of Felix-Morrow-Butler-Tillman-Feirabend?

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