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More On Guillen

All right, let's break this down.

What Happened: The Mariners declined to offer arbitration to Jose Guillen.

What It Means: They won't get a sandwich pick between the first and second rounds of next year's draft as compensation.

Why It Happened: Depending on who you believe, the Mariners either (A) didn't want to risk Guillen accepting, since he's not in their plans, or (B) wanted to distance themselves from Guillen's off-the-field issues, particularly the whole steroid thing.

Why (A) Shouldn't Really Be An Issue: For one thing, it's unlikely that Guillen would want to come back on a one-year contract. He's going to get other offers, and the Royals are probably going to want to sign him to a multi-year deal. The steroid thing is unfortunate, but it's in the past, and it's not going to kill the market value of a 31 year old right fielder coming off a big year in a tough park.

But for another, even in the exceedingly unlikely event that Guillen accepted arbitration, we'd be sitting pretty. An intelligent front office would view that as an opportunity to put Jones in left, keep Guillen in right, and move Sexson somewhere else to make room for Ibanez at first. With one year left to go, Sexson can be traded, and that whole thing would save us a bushel of runs defensively. This would be good. The Mariners should've wanted Guillen to accept an arbitration offer (just like they should've picked up his option, for whatever good that would've done). Even in the absolute worst-case scenario, whatever that might be, they'd still be able to release Guillen in the spring and only be on the hook for 25% of his arbitration salary (pending union grievance). But I doubt it'd ever get that far in the first place.

Guillen accepting arbitration wouldn't have been a problem at all. Only a bad and uncreative front office would view it as such.

Why (B) Shouldn't Really Be An Issue: Let's set aside the fact for a moment that Guillen would most likely decline an offer of arbitration, thus allowing the organization to wipe its hands clean of the matter with a free draft pick.

The whole steroid thing with Guillen is reported to have occurred between 2002-2005. It's in the past. It seems silly for the Mariners to take a ethical stand against Guillen for this when, for one thing, there's no sign that he still uses, and for another, Mike Morse still has a job with the team. Lots of people take PED's. Lots of Mariners have taken PED's. Lots of Mariners probably still take PED's. It's time to come to terms with this, because a team unwilling to negotiate with current or former users is going to find itself in the basement pretty quick.

And if this is a character thing - where the Mariners want to sever all connections with Guillen because he lied to the press about steroid usage last winter, or something - well, that's kind of inconsistent with the rest of their actions, what with, say, Carl Everett's history, or Richie Sexson's DUI charge. That'd just be an arbitrary and inexplicable line to draw. Who's worse: a guy who used steroids and subsequently lied about it, or a guy who had a few drinks and subsequently got behind the wheel? The Mariners don't really have a moral leg to stand on, here.

Why This Matters: It's not a huge deal, really; bad decisions tend to look better when they're viewed in isolation, rather than as part of a group (which they all invariably are). But before you write this off as nothing and say "so we lost one pick, who cares?", between 2003-2005 sandwich picks were used to grab the likes of Travis Buck, Clay Buchholz, Garrett Olson, Luke Hochevar (the first time), JP Howell, Huston Street, Gio Gonzalez, Adam Jones, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, and Matt Murton. The Yankees snagged Joba Chamberlain 41st overall in 2006. Bob Fontaine is really, really good at his job. The organization just robbed him of an opportunity to snag a big-time talent.

Why This Is Funny: By offering Guillen arbitration, the Mariners would ensure themselves of getting either a free draft pick or a good player on a reasonable one-year contract. They declined.

Why You Should Start Drinking Heavily: The winter meetings begin tomorrow.

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Let's Go Tampa
Clap Clap clapclapclap.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Dec 2, 2007 5:05 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

PEDs destroyed our national innocence
DUIs <strike>just kill innocent people</strike> are just boys being boys ya! baseball moralism
www.royalsreview.com

by royalsreview on Dec 2, 2007 5:33 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Is there a reliable source anywhere
that would explain for exactly which reason - a or b - the Mariners declined arbitration?

by vkut79 on Dec 2, 2007 6:33 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Everyone will tell you A
we'll probably never know if it was really B.

by Jeff on Dec 2, 2007 6:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

-c-
raw, undiluted, superfresh, grade A+, acme unmitigated incompetence.

December is the worst month to be a mariners fan.

by Mere Tantalisers on Dec 2, 2007 6:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hm
Thatll work.

by Slica on Dec 2, 2007 6:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Both A and B require C
since neither of them makes sense on its own.

by Llewdor on Dec 3, 2007 9:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

In the simplest possible terms
They turned a win-win situation into a loss.  Welcome to fail.

And we're probably not getting Hiroki Kuroda either.  We're going to find somebody older and suckier for about the same price and blow too much on the bullpen.

We're doomed.

by ThundaPC on Dec 2, 2007 7:01 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Really?
Are you serious? that for 8 million? no, I suppose you were being sarcastic.

by vkut79 on Dec 2, 2007 9:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Rather Weaver for 1/8 than Silva at 4/44
Plus Weaver wasn't as epically bad as people like to make him out as.

by Robert on Dec 2, 2007 9:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I must like the word "as"
Hey it's one letter away from what this week will be like

by Robert on Dec 2, 2007 9:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gas?
"I restore a sense of childlike wonder to people's lives; you give them Zunes and Vista." -- Fake Steve Jobs to Borg employees

by PositivePaul on Dec 3, 2007 12:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, I'll bite
  1. Bavasi has a plan and it's working.  Evidence: wins for the last 4 seasons under his leadership: 63-69-78-88.  Luck? Bah!
  2. The plan includes the future (hello?).  An extension for Felix and a stud 1B next year--additional cost in '09 = $20-25M.  That comes from Sexson's and Vidro's '08 salaries.  So you don't get to unload Sexson when his value is low to pick up a few bucks in '08.
  3. That means Bavasi has $22M to work with MAX this year.  If Guillen accepts arb (completely out of Bavasi's control, if offered) and Kuroda signs--THAT'S IT.  No Colon for a year.  Not even HoRam.

by Digger on Dec 2, 2007 8:12 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

In his infinite wisdom
Bavasi gave Vidro a vesting option for 2009. Out of curiosity, what stud first baseman did you have in mind?
What do I look like, a guy who's not lazy?

by Rollo Tomasi on Dec 2, 2007 9:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Vidro's option can go the way of Carl Everett's
Mark Teixeira and Adam Dunn will be on the market next year

by Digger on Dec 3, 2007 6:31 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Eh
  1. Luck? Yes.
  2. We're going to get someone for more money anyway
  3. Like #2, we're still going to be spending that much money, just on worse people. We're not "saving" Guillen money, because we're going to be giving it to someone else anyway. Someone worse.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Dec 2, 2007 9:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Move Sexson
And (1) you need a replacement (costs $$).  And (2) any additional payroll you create ($5M?) can only be in a one year contract because you need all $14M (and more) to pay Teixeira in '09.

Sure, the replacement could be Broussard/Morse, but that does nothing for the 5th pitcher problem.

by Digger on Dec 3, 2007 6:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ibanez.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Dec 3, 2007 10:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Also, I think the Teixeira thing is a joke
but I don't get it.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Dec 3, 2007 10:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, it's Ibanez
Now you need to find a quality 3rd outfielder who you can sign for one  at year at $5M.

Or if you want(ed) that to be Guillen, your $12M will only pay Kuroda, and the $5M for one year from the Sexson deal has to get the 5th SP.  HoRam?

Bottom line:  With Guillen gone, the Ms have $22M to commit to >1 year contracts for 2 SP  and the 4th OF.  If they move Ibanez to first, they need to add yet another OF for that $22M.  If they gain some additional '08 salary by trading Sexson, that $ can only go back out in a one year contract.

by Digger on Dec 3, 2007 11:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What?
If Guillen accepted, then your OF is Jones/Ichiro/Guillen, with Raul at 1B.

by Jeff on Dec 3, 2007 11:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

no
the mariners have additional flexibility beyond 2008 as well.

by Matthew on Dec 3, 2007 11:39 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're confusing me
Jones, Ichiro and Guillen in the OF with Raul at 1st is exactly what we want.
Jose Vidro (DH - Ms) was arrested today in an Idaho Bathroom for having a wide stance and sucking.

by Librocrat on Dec 3, 2007 2:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree - that record is not luck. It's suck.
The Mariners are in the top third of baseball in revenues and resources.  As of 2004 they were one of the most decrepit teams in baseball, both on the field and in the minors.

Now, under those circumstances let's assume you installed new leadership of average capability.  Would you not expect that a GM of even modest ability ought to chart steady improvement in a decrepit team if he is handed well above average resources?

What if the GM installed were as much as average in his ability?  Again, considering that the GM has upper tier resources available to him, would you not expect above average results?  (average GM + average resources = average results.  Average GM + ample resources > average results).

What we have in that record is really nothing more than average results - that is, that record reflects what you would expect from even a GM of quite modest abilities. It is well below what I would expect even an average GM to accomplish given the resources the Mariners have.

*

So, when you say "Luck? Bah!", I actually agree with you.  That record is not luck; it's damning.  That is the record that of management is no better than mediocre, and most likely somewhere below even that modest benchmark.

It's suck; not luck.

by Steve Nelson on Dec 3, 2007 9:22 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is true to an extent
Seattle's relatively distant geographic location, unattractive for a lot of Latin players who want to be closer to the East Coast or their homes, does hinder their ability to draw top talent.

by Gomez on Dec 3, 2007 9:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Also, an amendment
Why You Should Start Drinking Heavily: You're a Mariners fan.  Why shouldn't you?

by Gomez on Dec 2, 2007 9:06 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Start Drinking Heavily
implies any of us at some point stopped.

by Matthew on Dec 2, 2007 9:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dunno
But starting fights in bars can get you LXXXVI'd and pornos feature lots of LXIX.  And DCLXVI is Satan's signature.

by Gomez on Dec 2, 2007 10:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I nominate Coach to take one for the team
and donate a liver.
"Goddamn Romans. Sure know how to make a ... drum room." --Matt Cameron

by JI on Dec 2, 2007 10:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I Don't Drink
On the other hand, I'm a Boston fan.  I just live in Seattle and read LL and USSM 'cause Seattle has all the best baseball bloggers.  Frankly, I think it's a cosmic injustice that great bloggers like Jeff and the USSM folks don't have a great team to follow.  If not Boston, then at least, like, Oakland or Cleveland or something good like that.

by NBarnes on Dec 3, 2007 12:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't feel too bad.
If the Mariners were run better we probably wouldn't exist.

by Jeff on Dec 3, 2007 1:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The site would probably still exist
it'd just be much less entertaining

by ningwers on Dec 3, 2007 7:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

News Flash
Oakland isn't a good team anymore.

Not likely to become good again for another year or two, at least.

visiting A's fan (Shoreline resident)

by iglew on Dec 4, 2007 2:39 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There is another side
to the PED issue that is not being addressed

Selig said that there could be possible suspensions for players named in the Mitchell report .. not because they did or didn't pass drug tests, but because illegal purchases of PED's can be a Commissioner's discretionary suspension under the current collective bargaining agreement.

There is the likelihood there can and will be multiple suspensions handed out to those that are named and also fall under the police investigation that is brining out these names of those that illegally purchased the drugs.

It's more then just the "using" them that is worrisome to all the front offices, its the suspensions for illegal purchases of them that is bringing this all down.

by MfaninAlaska on Dec 3, 2007 1:34 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Ha!
If you think Bud Selig is about to suspend anyone for purchasing PEDs then you've gone round the bend.

by andrewgolfsalot on Dec 3, 2007 7:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

True!!....I wish he would suspend himself FOR LIFE
Someone get Richie on a REAL offseason workout plan...NOW!!...*signed: M's fan network.

by Montucky on Dec 3, 2007 7:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

George W. Bush for Commish?
Yea, that kinda has a sorta nice ring to it.

/sarcasm

In all seriousness, I bet he doesn't make it to the start of the next decade as commissioner.

by andrewgolfsalot on Dec 3, 2007 8:26 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why wouldn't he?
The owners love him, and they've increased baseball revenue from $1.5 bn to just over $6bn in Selig's tenure.  Since the owners decide who gets to be their boss, I wouldn't look for Selig to be gone any time soon unless he wants to leave, which isn't likely.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 3, 2007 8:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Uggg
I can't stand him. He seems to choose personal projects and focus on that rather than deal with a problem on a more broad MLB wide scale. The steroid thing is waaaayyy to focused on individuals, which was a good place to start, but now needs to be more of a blanket statement (HGH blood test).

And cos only his dumbass would allow a tie All Star game. From now on, his new nickname is Bud "Shortchanged" Selig.

Someone get Richie on a REAL offseason workout plan...NOW!!...*signed: M's fan network.

by Montucky on Dec 3, 2007 9:39 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't like him either
the only thing i will give him credit for is the wild card.  As much as I hated the idea in the beginning, it has definitely made September a more interesting month for the most part.

Otherwise, though, he's horrible - but he's completely untouchable because the owners love him.  So we'd better get used to the Selig Years for a while yet.

Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 3, 2007 9:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Direction of popular discontent
Selig's job is to make the game more profitable, not better.

Since the general public is dumb, it's possible for Selig to do his job really well while at the same time really annoying people like us who follow the game closely.

by Llewdor on Dec 3, 2007 10:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe I have
gone around the bend....

But PED's have given Bud and his legacy a bad name, to the point where they've been called in front of Congress.   It wouldn't suprise me in the least to suspend some players for a while to make a statement about MLB and their tolerance of PED's.  

He's said as much before.

by MfaninAlaska on Dec 3, 2007 10:25 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It be about $$$$$
I think it's about the money.

The budget has been set and the M's are convinced they will have to overpay for pitching.

They don't want to commit any more money then they have to, and there's a $8m risk in offering Guillen arbitration.

It also means that they've already spent that $8m in their minds.

Go Fo Broke!

by eknpdx on Dec 3, 2007 9:46 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I understand, but can't stand the guy.
I want him to take some responsibility for the "era" and he hasn't. To me, he's at fault for not regulating as much as players are for take PEDs. I don't enjoy the topic, but its always going to be unresolved until they test for it. The players union will never grant blood tests, but they should to clear the air/names of those that don't.
Someone get Richie on a REAL offseason workout plan...NOW!!...*signed: M's fan network.

by Montucky on Dec 3, 2007 10:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Selig's approach sure hasn't helped
The 'put head in sand and hope it passes' approach.  Very commissionerlike, Bud.

by Gomez on Dec 3, 2007 11:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you misspelled
put head in big pile of money.
Nice Guys Finish Third - Hopelessly lost, but makin' good time.

by pdb on Dec 3, 2007 11:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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