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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

What To Expect

A week or two ago, somebody linked me to a game recap. It was a game recap from this past season. It wasn't a recap that I wrote, and it wasn't a recap about a Mariners game. It was a recap about an ordinary game between the Indians and somebody else from like the beginning of May. I read it and my first thought was "why am I reading this?" My second thought was "holy crap, that's right, eventually they play games."

The Mariners will play games. They'll start playing games relatively soon - sooner than everybody else. All of this offseason that we've been sitting through is referred to as the offseason because it is the time off between seasons. Seasons of games.

It's easy to forget that, weirdly enough. It's easy to forget that games exist. One hundred sixty-two of them, for each team, plus the meaningless games at the beginning, and the meaningful potential games at the end. During the offseason, you can forget what games are like. During the season, you can forget what the offseason is like. There is lots of forgetting in the lives that we live.

Everything is about the games. During the games, it is about winning the games. During the offseason, it is about preparing to win more of the games. Last year, the Mariners won 67 of the games. The year before that, they won 61 of the games. How are they shaping up for 2012? How many of the games does it look like they're going to win?

Of course, we can't know anything for certain. We can't know how many games the Mariners are going to win. I don't think that we'd want to know how many games the Mariners are going to win, except for one reason. But we can project. We can project the standings to come up with a mathematical outlook.

I've seen two projections recently, presumably based on the latest roster and depth chart information. One comes courtesy of the Hardball Times, using the Oliver projection system. The other comes courtesy of Replacement Level Yankees, using the Marcel projection system.

Over a number of simulations, the former currently projects that the Mariners finish with an average record of 73-89, good for third place in the division. Over a number of simulations, the latter currently projects that the Mariners finish with an average record of 76-86, good for fourth place in the division.

The two projection systems differ on methodology, and so it shouldn't come as a surprise that they differ on a number of teams. For example, one gives the Royals 79 wins, while the other gives the Royals 62 wins. For another example, one gives the Cubs 70 wins, while the other gives the Cubs 83 wins. The correlation between the two sets of projected standings is statistically significant, but it is not incredibly strong.

With that said, they more or less agree on the Mariners. And their statistical projections for the Mariners agree with our subjective projections for the Mariners. I think the majority of people feel like the Mariners are okay, with a shot at .500. That's what these numbers are telling us. They're saying to the Angels "you're good", and then they're saying to the Rangers "you're good", and then they're turning to the Mariners and saying "hey, you're all right" while patting them on the shoulder.

So, nothing too shocking. Something to keep in mind when looking over the Marcel projections is that Marcel regresses pretty heavily, and pegs all rookies to be league-average performers. Hisashi Iwakuma? League-average performer. Yu Darvish? League-average performer. Marcel also doesn't park-adjust. Marcel is just that simplistic. It's frighteningly accurate for something so simplistic, but it's simplistic.

Conclusion: the 2012 Mariners probably aren't going to contend for the playoffs. Even signing Prince Fielder would've left them as significant underdogs. This is news to nobody. Jack Zduriencik said in a publicly-aired press conference, "let's not kid ourselves," 2012 is going to be challenging. The pre-spring training media luncheon is supposed to be all sunny and buoyant. Eric Wedge said he expects his team to contend every March. Jack Zduriencik did not say that.

Two things, though. For one, obviously, the Mariners have a chance of making the playoffs. It is not a very good chance - this chance would require an awful lot of things to happen - but it is a real chance. It is about the same as the chance of, say, Miguel Olivo hitting a home run in a given plate appearance. Not crazy, right? Maybe Justin Smoak blossoms. Maybe Kyle Seager blossoms. Maybe Franklin Gutierrez bounces back, and Ichiro bounces back, and Mike Carp becomes Raul Ibanez, and...

And for two, even if the Mariners drop out of the race, think about what could be coming. Danny Hultzen could be coming. James Paxton could be coming. Also Erasmo Ramirez, and Vinnie Catricala, and maybe Forrest Snow and Stephen Pryor and who knows. One of the things that made 2008 so impossibly terrible is that the team was bad, and there weren't many talented young reinforcements. The Mariners now have the sort of talent that could keep you watching, and keep you wanting to be watching, through to the end. Maybe it doesn't work out that way, but there's the chance. Talented youth is exciting. Come August or September, this team could be dripping with talented youth.

I think the tone of this post is oddly positive. It's weird, because I'm usually not so positive about the Mariners, and I wish the Mariners would've had a more complete offseason. I wish they would've added one more significant piece, somehow. But despite the immediate outlook, there is a lot to be positive about, and besides, who really wants to be negative about sports? What a lame way to follow sports. They're sports! Find something to be happy about, or find something else to do. Boy did this end differently than I thought it would.

Comment 125 comments  |  4 recs  | 

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Be Happy, It’s sports!

by Eric Sogard on Jan 30, 2012 5:44 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

This is a really good little write-up

I agree with Mr. Sullivan that when you envision your team, especially one like the Mariners, having a good year, you pretty much have to have every piece fall into place. You need the 2009 Guti back and all the young guys maximizing their potential. And then there are the injuries. The Giants had a good pitching staff, but for their 2010 run, it just all had to fall into place. Posey gets hurt last year and a few other injuries to their pitchers and it just wasnt’ the same. I hate to predict wins, but I think being in contention is a huge things. I think it was neat to be in contention uni July last year. Maybe this year we can content until August. Then soon it will be September and that’s when it gets to be some fun. You know watching what other teams are doing and having big games.

by Let'sNotKidOurselves on Jan 30, 2012 6:00 PM PST reply actions  

I wish I could go back in time to 2009.

And tell myself that one of the people in this picture would be the M’s starting Left Fielder in 2012.

by wetzelcoal on Jan 30, 2012 6:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Jeff, Matthew, I responded to this post by simply saying:

“Sadly, I can.”

But, it got deleted. You guys seriously need to lighten up if you think that’s in need of deletion. Your fans should be allowed to respond to you.

"Perhaps the worst comment I've ever seen on LL." - sanford_and_son.

by Ride the Apocalypse on Jan 31, 2012 10:07 AM PST up reply actions  

It was flagged
This would be a wonderful example of a case in which a reply adds nothing (except maybe annoyance)

I happened to agree.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 31, 2012 10:18 AM PST up reply actions   9 recs

It adds just as much as almost any other reply

In that I said what I was thinking and responded thus. There are instances of people doing this in every comments section; adding their “two cents,” even if it isn’t something that adds incredible depth to the conversation.

I believe this kind of extreme post scavenging goes too far.

"Perhaps the worst comment I've ever seen on LL." - sanford_and_son.

by Ride the Apocalypse on Jan 31, 2012 10:31 AM PST up reply actions  

That's clearly your preference to "let a joke stand," but enforcing it as a rule just limits your audience's freedom and puts them at the mercy of your personal preferences.

Do it that way if you want, I can’t stop you. I just don’t like it and I can already see that it breeds a bandwagon of people here trying to ensure that you limit any input that rubs them the wrong way. I don’t like having my input squashed for such a middling cause.

Anyways, I appreciate your responses and value your input on this site. It’s why I come here, to read your articles.

"Perhaps the worst comment I've ever seen on LL." - sanford_and_son.

by Ride the Apocalypse on Jan 31, 2012 12:36 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

This would be a wonderful example of a case in which a reply adds nothing

So, why does it get to stay and my post doesn’t?

"Perhaps the worst comment I've ever seen on LL." - sanford_and_son.

by Ride the Apocalypse on Feb 1, 2012 11:31 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't understand how my follow-up joke took away anyone's enjoyment of the original joke.

But then, I’ve always had that point of view. For example, bad sequels never ruin the originals for me.

Anyways, I’m not going to make any more of a deal over it. I expressed my opinions, Jeff listened and responded. Even though we don’t agree, I appreciate that he took the time to engage my complaints. That is a good sign of fairness, so I’ll step down and carry on.

Thanks for the responses, Jeff.

"Perhaps the worst comment I've ever seen on LL." - sanford_and_son.

by Ride the Apocalypse on Feb 1, 2012 4:46 PM PST up reply actions  

It's still no more irrelevant to the discussion that anything I've said.

But I understand that it won’t be removed, for fear of validating any of my complaints. But ultimately, I don’t want my posts to be singled out.

"Perhaps the worst comment I've ever seen on LL." - sanford_and_son.

by Ride the Apocalypse on Feb 1, 2012 4:42 PM PST up reply actions  

*no less, not "no more"

"Perhaps the worst comment I've ever seen on LL." - sanford_and_son.

by Ride the Apocalypse on Feb 1, 2012 5:34 PM PST up reply actions  

If people could just learn to do this personally I would actually try to participate more not less

Frequently when someone posts something witty or creative some people feel compelled to respond in a way that basically ends the joke because their comment cannot be taken anywhere funny. Not because they are trying to shut it down on purpose, but that’s what happens when you take the joke in a direction that concludes it.

This is a big rule in improvisation (which is basically what we’re doing in the comments here). Don’t respond in a way that shuts down what the other person was trying to do. If you have something really interesting to respond with, it should be something that accepts the joke that’s been made then additionally builds off of it. Otherwise just let the joke stay there and rec it if you like it. Everyone would be better off if we could all just follow that simple guideline.

by OlSalty on Jan 31, 2012 3:57 PM PST up reply actions   6 recs

Your interests are athletic young men?

Wait, my interests are athletic young men. I sprung that trap on myself.

How come you can do all this other great shit, but you can't lie the fuck down and sleep?

by JAH on Jan 30, 2012 9:23 PM PST up reply actions  

What confuses me

is that people think the A’s are going to be any better.

by Bubbles. on Jan 30, 2012 6:04 PM PST reply actions  

From the moves they've made this offseason

it seems like they are totally giving up on this season. Maybe they are just going full rebuild mode. I don’t know. better for the M’s i guess

by Jonathan Brakke on Jan 30, 2012 10:00 PM PST up reply actions  

They're taking their lumps now

To make sure that in 2013 they’re at least better than the Astros.

by J0SER on Jan 31, 2012 11:56 AM PST up reply actions  

I was wondering this yesterday:

In years past, how many wins have teams projected to win x games actually gotten? More to the point, what (historically) is the probability of a projected-74-win-team making the playoffs?

by RunningFool on Jan 30, 2012 6:11 PM PST reply actions  

Sigh...

I remember having such high hopes for Condor.

by Westside guy on Jan 30, 2012 7:38 PM PST reply actions  

That's what confuses me.

The just seem like an even more incomplete team now.

by Bubbles. on Jan 30, 2012 8:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Nah, this is all Jonah Hill

Brad Pitt has never been the same since Hill left to briefly run the Dodgers

by J0SER on Jan 31, 2012 11:58 AM PST up reply actions  

Well, DePo was a two-sport athlete at Harvard and had worked as a scout

So regardless of who they actually cast in the role, the character itself was clearly fictitious. I could understand why he wouldn’t want his name attached even if the actor was some Twilight/Gossip Girl heartthrob.

Though frankly I like this version better.

by J0SER on Feb 1, 2012 10:49 AM PST up reply actions  

I imagine they plan on playing a bunch of rookies?

And apparently they all get penciled in for league average.

by browl on Jan 31, 2012 10:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, I think that's the essence of it.

Beane can no longer pull a fast one on the rest of baseball, but he’s figured out how to break Marcel.

Add in the Rangers getting under-rated for the same reason (Yu is calculated as average as well) and thus not beating up the A’s (or M’s) quite so much, and you can see how things get skewed.

by J0SER on Jan 31, 2012 12:01 PM PST up reply actions  

This comment gives me hope:
then they’re turning to the Mariners and saying “hey, you’re all right” while patting them on the shoulder.

It sounds better than patting the Mariners on the head, ruffling their hair and saying, “hey, you’re alll right!”

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby

by extavernmouse on Jan 30, 2012 11:43 PM PST reply actions  

Well...

Remember how sure a lot of people were that the 2010 Mariners would contend? And then every single thing that could possibly fail to pan out… failed to pan out?

What if 2012 is the opposite?

: /

by NickH44 on Jan 31, 2012 1:07 AM PST reply actions  

I've been playing with WAR projections.

My best case scenario for the M’s, if everyone performs above expectations, a couple of young guys really bust out, and no one gets hurt is for about 90 wins. That’s still probably not good enough to win the division, although it will keep us in the hunt almost the whole year and may let us slip in as a wild card team.

by mebpenguin on Jan 31, 2012 6:54 AM PST up reply actions  

Strength of schedule

If we’re hoping or pipe dreaming, we have to take into account who we’re seeing those 90 wins come from. Who tanks, in this scenario? Do the M’s play .500 ball against the Rangers and Angels (a stretch in and of itself) but then completely own interleague play, plus dominating the Twins, Orioles, Astros, etc.? Or doeone of the other AL West teams have to thoroughly crater for this best case to work?

by Chris_FB on Jan 31, 2012 7:09 AM PST up reply actions  

Maybe I have a different memory of history than other people, but this is how I remember pre-season expectations for the M's recently:

2005: “We added Sexson and Beltre! We’re gonna rock!!!” (M’s win 69 games)
2006: “M’s could be better!” (And they were. 78 wins.)
2007: “We still ain’t really good though.” (88 wins and late season playoff hopes!)
2008: “We got Silva! We won 88 games last year! Everyone can suck it, PLAYOFFS!!!!” (Then 2008 happened.)
2009: “Mariners suck.” (Hey, they JJ Putz trade was fresh and it was also dope. I like this Z guy. 85 wins.)
2010: “EVERYBODY BOW TO THE Z MAN! WE GOT CLIFF LEE IDIOTS! START THE PLAYOFF CHANTS NOW!!! PLAY-OFFS! PLAY-OFFS! PLAY-OFFS!” (Well, at least this was a more interesting season than 2008.)
2011: “M’s are no good.”

So, 2005, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 all turned out much differently than I expected. I’d say our playoff hopes based on pre-season expectations are looking pretty good right now.

follow @casetines

by Kenneth Arthur on Jan 31, 2012 9:00 AM PST reply actions   4 recs

True, just not good enough.

2002/2003 were different than expected, for me at least, because we missed the playoffs when I remember basically assuming we’d get in. It’s still hard to believe we won 93 games back to back years and missed out on the playoffs both times.

by seamariners85 on Jan 31, 2012 9:45 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

My first Mariners game was in 2004.

Also, I found another shared center turning lane in Hartford today, near Main Street and Westland Street in the North End.

by Jim226 on Jan 31, 2012 6:25 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

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