Farewell, Prince Fielder Saga
by Matthew on Jan 25, 2012 1:31 AM PST
in Around Major League Baseball
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PrintI had some increased, and a touch irrational, hope that the Mariners would still prevail in signing Prince Fielder to a reasonable contract. He's a good bat but his market appeared to be severely and quickly drying up. However, what I was more interested in was the signal that such a signing would send. Having Justin Smoak, Prince Fielder, Jesus Montero and Mike Carp all on the same team would possibly force the team into an offense-heavy line up that would be exciting in the way that disregarding your preset and tested sailing route in order to get a better view of an island and damn any probably-totally-not-harmful rocks potentially in the way would be exciting.
Not at that price though. Nooooooo. I'll have to check when the full details become public but the money is close enough that it's conceivable that Prince Fielder is, in terms of real (i.e. adjusted for expected inflation) dollars, going to be paid the same or more than Albert Pujols will over 90% of the contract length. I never believed that Fielder was going to come at a bargain, but wow.
With Seattle's payroll currently well below last year's mark, few big money targets left and a still-present thirst for a big push for offense, there are going to be fans angry that the Tigers, not the Mariners, are the team to ink Fielder. Some will claim that the Mariners could have made this contract work. If those people are willing to listen, I say that I sympathize, but beware of speculating based on what Fielder signed for. We just don't know that Fielder would have signed with Seattle at the same price. Or if he would have signed here at any price for that matter.
There's a rumor that he didn't want to sign here, but rumors are just rumors. That Fielder wouldn't want to sign here was always a possibility, whether the media speculated on it or not. Of course, the trade for Jesus Montero appeared to make the Mariners much less likely to pursue Prince Fielder even if he were open to the idea. Instead, it's the Tigers that get the talented bat, but have to deal with the defensive fallout. I was initially disappointed that he didn't sign with the Nationals for the chance of some entertaining Mike Morse in left field GIFs, but based on other rumblings, we'll get the joy of Miguel Cabrera back at third base GIFs instead. Hooray!
Like Jeff and others, I don't have an idea where the Mariners put their remaining offseason money, however much that is. One consideration I hadn't yet seen mentioned is that for the third season in four, the Mariners have a top three pick in the MLB draft. Those picks are not cheap to sign so perhaps some of the slush money is going to end up there. I hope it goes somewhere to make the team better. I still believe that it will.
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Give it to Felix.
Just write him a check and hand it to him.
by zeeehjee on Jan 25, 2012 1:36 AM PST reply actions 17 recs
Knowing how much Felix loves this team, he would just hand it back and say, "Go make this team even better!"
by EthanN on Jan 25, 2012 1:45 AM PST up reply actions 6 recs
Then slip a 3-4 million dollar bill under his mattress.
Just make sure he gets more money.
I realize we would be 5-6 years away from this problem
If we had invested the 24 million annually in Fielder, and given him 9 or 10 years, it would mean that as our own young hitters are entering free agency and looking for big money – Fielder is most likely in decline and we still owe him 100 million dollars. It could create a situation where at that point we would essentially be choosing a 33 year old Prince Fielder over Ackley/Smoak/Montero/Hultzen or whatever other young talent we’ve acquired. Only we would be making that choice now, without all the information we need, and we’d be stuck with it.
Well, anyway. That’s assuming a whole lot about our young guys and their development.
You said "we would be 5-6 years away from this problem"
If Fielder started performing worse than the contract in year 2 or 3 and went down from there, the problem would not be 5-6 years away.
Ahh, I see.
When I said we would be 5-6 years from this problem, I was referring to the number of years before Ackley/Montero/etc would be eligible for FA. Sorry about that.
I also understand there would be issues of arbitration years, television rights, and other stuff as well. I was just trying to make a point about the need to retain our own guys in the future, if they turn out to be worth a damn.
I don't see what the Mariners had to offer Fielder.
The Tigers are not only giving Prince cartoonish amounts of money (which I know is the biggest factor), they offer a legitimate chance for the playoffs as well as a decent park to hit in. I can see the short RF fence providing him a bit of a boost, though I imagined it played a small role – if any- in his signing. Other than the Rangers, he went to the team that made the most sense as a player that wants both money and to win. While I certainly would have enjoyed watching him play in Seattle, the potential on the Mariner’s roster is incredibly exciting. While Fielder would have been a nice caramel in our chocolate assortment, I’m having fun now watching to find which of the young guys are toffee and which are the nasty orange cream.
I doubt players see it this way, but Fielder signed for 9 seasons, not just for 2012
So I wonder how many players think more about “which teams are likely to be good over the next decade” rather than “who’s good right now?”
It's probably a pretty good approximation..
…to say that the teams which are good now have the best chance to be good over the next X years. Rebuilding is hard and seems to have an iffy track record. Also, it seems common for expensive veterans to get traded away from terrible teams if they aren’t happy on a losing team.
Can't say for Fielder specifically, but players in general have big egos*
And I suspect they figure the team will be good as long as they are on it.
* This is often charitably labelled “confidence” instead.)
True, one would want to maximize the peak of their career
But the Tigers have the potential to be relevant for at least a few years with the talent they have today. Coupled with the amount of cash they are giving him, the opportunity to make a dramatic difference so quickly might be a powerful force. Winning now along with long term employment at a great rate has to be alluring as a player, but I know they have agents to guide them to do the intelligent thing as well. With that in mind, I am surprised if there really isn’t an opt out in the contract knowing that over an extended period the situation could become difficult in Detroit.
by branochilly on Jan 25, 2012 12:50 PM PST up reply actions
Like signing a long-term deal with the Phillies?
That looks like a pending disaster to me.
follow @casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on Jan 25, 2012 12:51 PM PST up reply actions
I do not intend to say Comerica is a hitter's park, only that it was average.
But looking deeper now I see how I went wrong looking at the issue too superficially. While he will add a few home runs to RF, I see the detriment the rest of the field will give. Here is a testament to my incorrect thought with an overlay of Fielder’s BIP in Comerica.
For LHB, park effects from StatCorner (Comerica / Miller)
K: 93 / 106
BB: 97 / 105
1B: 102 / 95
2B: 96 / 102
3B: 137 / 34
HR: 108 / 103
wOBA: 103 / 97
So if anything, Comerica is slightly kinder to Prince than Miller was.
Matthew, did you put "sympathasize" in there as a joke on Fielder's, uh, size?
Because that would be totally awesome.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Jan 25, 2012 7:34 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
The M's must be done, just because there isn't anything good left to be had
Fielder definitely isn’t worth the monopoly money he’s getting as a Tiger. There isn’t anything at 3b, possibly even LF that isn’t a marginal upgrade at best. Starting pitching to truly backfill losing Pineda and Fister, maybe… but apart from investing in Edwin Jackson or pulling off some trade no one sees coming, that’s also marginal improvement over what is in-house.
Perhaps all the blather about what the M’s have to spend is even more trivial and orthogonal a discussion than it already has been. Perhaps there isn’t anything left to do, unless you think there’s a fundamental flop in waiting at one or more starting positions.
by Chris_FB on Jan 25, 2012 7:47 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Thats what ive been thinking
We dont have any position with absolutely no hope of being league average, although 3b dedinitely wont have the power usually associated with it, but 3b is a special situation.
There’s no big upgrade out there on the market at really any position, and we have cheap young guys that should get a full season to see what they can do.
Also, people are repeatedly underestimating our young pitching. People talk about losing Fister, but when he first came up there was NO ONE that talked about him being a really good pitcher that we would hate to ever lose. Fister started out as a nobody with a cool name and in no time he was valuable in a trade.
Why do so many people assume that the current crop of young pitchers are going to fail?
Pitching is still a strength, and the Ms are already better than last year overall. I see no problem if the Ms decide to settle for an improved team with a lower payroll and then next year raise it significantly and fix a couple positions long term
by briwas101 on Jan 25, 2012 1:47 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Unless theres a trade. Trade makes more sense than FA
by briwas101 on Jan 25, 2012 1:49 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
...is not a significant upgrade from Wells
by Chris_FB on Jan 25, 2012 8:40 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
You've never seen him play baseball
Dave Cameron is not God.
I just saw that on Saturday night. I had never heard of it up until then but it may be favorite movie from 2011.
Then again, I haven’t seen Drive or the Muppets yet.
by Cascadian Man on Jan 25, 2012 11:22 AM PST up reply actions
No, but I definitely got close to at some points.
It hit way too close to home at times.
by Cascadian Man on Jan 25, 2012 12:37 PM PST up reply actions
Fake Seattle aka Vancouver, BC.
Even digitally imposed the Space Needle!
by sanford_and_son on Jan 25, 2012 2:45 PM PST up reply actions
I assume you have seen Cespedes play baseball? (note: watching youtube does not equal "seen him play")
What scouting or stat info do you have to suggest Cespedes could become a 2.5, 3+ WAR player? Or that he will do fine in Safeco?
Hold on.
If we can’t comment on players who we haven’t watched play live then what the fuck.
What scouting or stat info do you have to suggest Cespedes could become a 2.5, 3+ WAR player? Or that he will do fine in Safeco?
Probably the same numbers that lead you to believe that he is not a significant upgrade over Casper Wells?
I’m not advocating signing Cespedes (I like Soler a lot though, and I know the M’s had a scout down there watching him a few weeks back) but I must have missed because this conversation isn’t making much sense to me. If that’s the case, and this is a continuation from a previous thread, then I apologize.
I think he's really just saying there's way to know either way.
And that’s giant investment in an unknown.
by InSpokane on Jan 25, 2012 11:19 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
And I agree with that.
But he said this:
…is not a significant upgrade from Wells
It kind of flies in the face of his argument.
He was asserting that my argument was invalid b/c I hadn't watched him live
So I wanted to know what he got from watching him live.
He still makes a valid point. You said flat out that he wasn't an upgrade over Casper Wells.
follow @casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on Jan 25, 2012 12:54 PM PST up reply actions
And he isn't an upgrade
Because shelling out that much money for someone who’s completely unproven, whose ceiling seems to be league-average left fielder at best depending on who you talk to, doesn’t sound right to me.
I concede that you and circa are right to point out that I’m being a bit too confident in my opinion, when InSpokane above has the right idea.
I would just say that both of you stand equally far away from the same point, just on different sides.
Cespedes is “completely unproven” so what do any of us know? And by us I mean us the people in this thread.
Depending on who you talk to, as in, there’s some people that will tell you he’s much better than a league-average player. I would only say that any time the M’s can add a prospect, do it. Not that I think they’ll spend the money on this one.
follow @casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on Jan 25, 2012 1:28 PM PST up reply actions
God blinks.
He just blinks at the exact same time as you.
by circa81 on Jan 25, 2012 11:34 AM PST up reply actions 7 recs
Wasn't in the cards for us
All indications are that Fielder would have cost more to sign with us. We’ve heard it in his case, and in the case of other FA’s — Seattle has to pay more. It’s fair to assume that the M’s would have had to beat Detroit’s offer…even if the only evidence is that we know Detroit has advantages in proximity to Fielder’s home and odds of reaching the playoffs. And there’s no way I support giving Fielder more than Detroit did…or even matching their offer.
On the other hand, I’m kind of sick of being the team that’s always keeping the payroll low so we can win in the future. It might be fun, for once, to be the team blowing the payroll in the future so we can win now. And from the sound of sports-talk radio a lot fans share this sentiment. It might be a tough offseason next year for Jack if his young players don’t show significant progress this year.
If you judge the success or failure of a team by the sound of sports talk radio
you might want to re-evaluate your judgment criteria. That contract is crazypants and I’m glad the M’s are not on the hook for it.
by pdb on Jan 25, 2012 9:53 AM PST up reply actions 4 recs
Plus the "spend a bunch of money on one guy" scenario works best
when the team is one guy away from being really, really good. That is not the 2012 Mariners.
What about the counter argument that when the Mariners do become a team one guy away from being really good,
a player of Fielder’s caliber may not be on the market?
Aaron Curry is the first Seahawk since Walter Jones to have a legitimate shot at Hall of Fame induction - John Morgan
by Fearless Frog on Jan 25, 2012 5:39 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Not to be a dick, but
were you here 3 years ago when we were the first $100 million team to lose 100 games? It’s not like the team has been cheap the last 10 years. It sucks that when we finally got a good talent/personnel guy for GM the team decided to start cutting payroll. My fear is this ownership group, with Larson’s divorce/debt issues and the Nintendo folks’ apparent waning interest in the team, that we may be stuck with sort of a lame duck front office until they can find local rich dude with a passion for the team to step up and take it over.
"apparent waning interest"
huh? Nintendo has to my knowledge never waned one bit – they’re a somewhat passive owner, sure, but I don’t think they’re bored with their toy at this point.
That's fair. It's just an impression
I’ve had from what’s been written locally about the transition of the ownership from (I forget his name, but you know, the patriarch of the family) to institutional ownership for estate planning purposes. I work in the estate planning field, and so my view is somewhat tainted by the fact that when you take the original investors direct involvement out of the picture and move it into a vehicle that is controlled by people in charge of maximizing what remains for the heirs, the management of it becomes less effective. That’s all. I respectful retract that comment if I’m wrong.
Hiroshi Yamauchi is the principal Nintendo owner, I think
and I don’t really know his inner workings (nobody really does) but it doesn’t seem like switching to a trust has changed things that much.
When Mr Yamauchi held the ownership, he was represented by Lincoln, and by his son-in-law Minoru Arakawa (then President of Nintendo of America)
When his percentage changed over to Nintendo for estate planning purposes, I believe it continued to be represented by Lincoln and Arakawa
You're being reasonable and bringing an expert perspective to the info you have, so please take this as intended...
…I personally wouldn’t put much stock into one local writer’s speculation, based on what he heard while being a vulture at a divorce trial. There’s an awful lot of second-guessing motive and intention going on when trying to get a read on what any of the front office or ownership group are doing… extrapolate that out to possible next steps or outcomes, and it becomes the equivalent of rosterbating, in my opinion, only about the front office instead of the 40-man roster.
I’m not lumping you in with the mindless masses that flow from other sites at all, so no aspersions cast on you, honest. It’s just that I don’t share any of the fears or interpret any of the data points you’re presenting in your last sentence there.
Agree on all the fielder stuff, but on payroll...
Jack is doing the right thing. We are a better team than last year. We are. We really really are a better team. Not only are we a better team, but we are a better team with a lower payroll.
The more fat Jack can cut from the payroll, and the more young guys we can bring up to the majors, the more jack WILL spend over the next couple years.
So you wont have to wait forever. We arent that far away from being able to target one or two top FA. When the right player comes along we will get him, and we will keep getting better while we wait
by briwas101 on Jan 25, 2012 2:21 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I am most sad that we can't make constant Doritos jokes like we did with Jose Lopez.
I was really excited about that prospect. Who is roly poly and lovable enough on the current M’s squad to be such a target?
This just in, Prince seen in Detroit buying 71 million bags of Cooler Ranch Doritos.
Do you know what Fielder is doing to the soil?
by ThomasG on Jan 25, 2012 11:28 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
We didn't make Doritos jokes with Jose Lopez because they weren't funny
Calling Prince Fielder fat is not funny! It’s not fucking funny! It’s the easiest, laziest, most obvious joke. It doesn’t make people uncomfortable, and it doesn’t comment on any societal taboo, problem or dysfunction and there is no underlying wit. Do you honestly think you are the first person to observe that Prince is fat? For the love of all that is sacred please stop.
by Poochie on Jan 25, 2012 10:08 AM PST up reply actions 15 recs
This might be overly meta
but I find the fat jokes and the resistance to the fat jokes equally annoying. That is, not really that annoying, but they’re both getting old. I can breeze past a fat joke. It’s hard to breeze past a fat joke and multiple comments of back and forth over whether it is appropriate to make fat jokes.
by taprat on Jan 25, 2012 10:34 AM PST up reply actions 12 recs
We fight the good fight because otherwise we will be overrun with stupid jokes
we overreact now in order to prevent an actual meLLtdown later.
Please understand that our community has been a community for some time – we are acting to protect that community’s best interests.
by seattlebruin on Jan 25, 2012 10:44 AM PST up reply actions 4 recs
Understood. I'm not into fat jokes either. They're stupid.
Just pointing out that sometimes the medicine is worse than the malady, the surgery can kill the patient, etc.
by taprat on Jan 25, 2012 11:24 AM PST up reply actions 4 recs
But it's gotten to the point:
Just the fact that they’re stupid and that there are so many of them, and that people are mad about it, is funny in itself. I kept laughing at the sheer number of them!
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
by extavernmouse on Jan 26, 2012 1:00 AM PST up reply actions
Who are you?
And what are you wearing?
by taprat on Jan 25, 2012 11:22 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Don't act stupid
It’s not the place of someone who has been on LL for a month to tell us how to run the community. There are users who been here 8 years or so. When it comes to our comments section we don’t fuck around.
by Poochie on Jan 25, 2012 11:39 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Huh...
So you really did mean it that way… I was hoping that wasn’t the case. “You’re not from around here, are you? Watch yer back, stranger…”
by taprat on Jan 25, 2012 11:59 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
That's not at all the point.
The point is that there’s a reason we respond the way we do to things. It’s been largely effective at killing stupid memes. It might seem counter-productive, unless you remember the 8,000 times over the past five years or so that it’s worked.
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 25, 2012 12:02 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
OK - I will not speak of it again
Maybe someday, when I have achieved a higher status in the community, no one will need to ask, “Who are you?”
by taprat on Jan 25, 2012 12:16 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
The more you hang around here the more you'll get a sense for what works and what doesn't
and the more you’ll want to preserve what works and drive out what doesn’t.
I think that's very true.
But I also think that long time contributors like Poochie should be careful to express those types of things in a manner that is not likely to drive people away from the site, much like you and Aaron Campeau have managed to do.
Jeff is an amazing blogger. I have been faithfully reading his work since the Leone for Third days. I’ll admit to a man-crush in that regard. I would guess, that he would probably appreciate less confrontation in the comments section as well when it comes to things like creating a virtual pecking order in the LL community.
It appears to me that taprat is well spoken and simply wanted to share an opinion. I think LL should value that, and if someone disagrees with his opinion they should let him know why and perhaps provide some context.
Who are you?
That’s some bullshit.
by circa81 on Jan 25, 2012 12:30 PM PST up reply actions 15 recs
It's a relevant question to ask when someone bitches about LL enforcing it's own rules who does not know the rules
But nonetheless wants us to change them or stop enforcing them just because of their opinion. This isn’t a democracy, people need to get that. Jeff and Matthew don’t like those jokes and coincidentally everyone else doesn’t like them either (though it only really matters what Jeff and Matthew think) so don’t do it and don’t bitch when people tell other people not to do it and try to turn it into a referendum on LL’s comments every single time we do.. It’s that simple.
by OlSalty on Jan 25, 2012 1:30 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Not to stoke the fire, but it didn't seem to be that Tap's comment was overtly bitching, he was just making an observation.
And saying “Who are you?” in response is pretty non-inclusive as a response to something that was a legit opinion.
That said, I started this whole thing and wish I never had.
by HititHere on Jan 25, 2012 1:48 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Agreed
I feel taprat made a legitimate and salient point. There did not appear to be any overly harsh criticism about the general community nor any hostility on his/her part to be divisive. It was an argument with merit and making it about taprat’s personal character is pointless and irrelevant; address the argument being made, and if you can’t offer a reasonable counter-argument, then you should re-evaluate your original stance. LL should be open to reasonable, well-argued criticism that isn’t overtly hostile in order to improve itself.
IMO, I’m equally tired of reading the usual discourse about site rules and piling on as I am of reading the terrible jokes. Do I like fat jokes? No. Do I want to encourage tolerance of fat jokes? No. But there is a line between reasonable criticism/mocking and piling on to the point where the regulars feel the need to be defensive for the millionth time and create unnecessary subthreads such as these.
“No piling on” should be frowned upon for a reason.
by JLC on Jan 25, 2012 3:39 PM PST up reply actions 7 recs
I think people should get thicker skin
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 25, 2012 3:44 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
I generally agree, especially on the internet
I’m not interested in catering to people who are overly sensitive. I also think that if someone makes an intelligent criticism of the LL community, we shouldn’t immediately assume they’re trying to undermine us and encourage rebellion. Constructive criticism can be helpful, and being too set in our ways will only lead to more conversations like this. Sometimes this community gets as defensive about itself as newcomers do about getting piled on.
by JLC on Jan 25, 2012 3:58 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
First impressions: this place is contentious and unwelcoming
Love the blog, a bit shocked by some of what I’ve seen in the comments so far. Is there anywhere for newcomers to get a feel for unspoken rules? Has anyone made a fanpost, or perhaps a link to an especially contentious thread to help “get a sense for what works and what doesnt”? What else is highly frowned upon besides fat jokes (or is “no fat jokes” part of a broader, anti-unoriginality sentiment). I’m sure most of the people getting venom thrown their way weren’t trying to anger the LL natives. In the end they’re just fans of the team like anyone else.
Either educate people or ignore them, but what’s the point of being rude and trying to make people feel stupid? Unless you don’t want new commenters here.
by C Dubya on Jan 25, 2012 12:50 PM PST up reply actions 7 recs
Over there on the left sidebar of the main page, there are LL rules. They are not unspoken.
Rule 13 is particularly relevant here.
The rules are there for a reason, and the reason is because we (longtime posters and newer posters alike) want LL to not be a cesspool of stupid jokes and annoying memes. So yeah, we may beat up people that make lazy fat jokes, but it’s not personal – stop making the jokes, and the beatings stop.
Is there anywhere for newcomers to get a feel for unspoken rules?
Hang around long enough and read through enough threads, and it should become pretty apparent what flies and what doesn’t, even without reading the rules. Which you should read.
by pdb on Jan 25, 2012 12:54 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Oh and if the concept of a blog having 13 or more rules is daunting then maybe this isn't the place for you
(not specifically pointed at you, C Dubya, just a general observation)
by pdb on Jan 25, 2012 12:55 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Posting in the off-topic threads is a great way to get a feel for the community as well.
I lurked those and other thread comments before posting here for the first time and everything seems to have gone fine for me so far.
by Cascadian Man on Jan 25, 2012 12:56 PM PST up reply actions
Game day threads are whole different beast.
Game Thread Emotion adds a whole new level to LL.
If the jokes are actually in violation of the rules they should be flagged and Jeff or Matthew should take action to remove them and if neccessary the user.
This abusive piling on reflects badly on the site. And it seems like I remember not too long ago this style of self-policing did become a problem and it was told to stop. It seems to be cropping up again.
A single person commenting and reminding commenters of rule 13 would be a much better way to go. Responding by yelling and cursing at people isn’t generally a good way to go.
Doug Fister. :(
by Mothy on Jan 25, 2012 2:48 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
A follow-up
I know that Jeff and Matthew can’t (and probably won’t) spend all their time in babysitting every thread we comment on. Just look at yesterday for example. And I think this is the reason why veterans on the site try their best to take control – and I admire this very much.
The thing is, nobody really knows who they are and what they’re trying to do. In trying to preserve the rules and motto Jeff and Matthew have tried to create, they have come across as arrogant, demanding and strict. And how exactly do you think a new commentator would react?
"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff
For one, a new commentator, all commentators,
should have read the rules they agreed to:
http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2011/6/4/2205761/spring-cleaning-lookout-landings-posting-guidelines
It’s LL’s EULA. Not our fault when you violate it and it turns out we own your ass
What am I, a lawyer?
I’m supposed to read things I agree to now? I’ve been pretty well conditioned by past experience to streamline the new-site-profile process (Yea, sure, great, whatever, accept, NEXT…….“What? 24 hours till I can post? But I’m angry now!”)
Nah, I’m just kidding around. When I brought it up I thought certain people were expecting too much implicit knowledge on how to act from newcomers, when it turns out the guidelines couldn’t be more clear or reasonable (and it was my own fault for not giving it it’s due attention out of the gate). Upon reading through this thread, reading through the links provided and re-reading a couple of the previous exchanges that fueled my initial complaint, I have now completely changed my outlook. From here on out I intend to be a cordial defender of truth, justice and the LL way!
by C Dubya on Jan 25, 2012 5:48 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
There is a huge difference between
1) this comment violates the rules, please stop
and
2) you are stupid. burn in hell and die. idiot.
or
3) who are you to dare post your opinion on this blog?
It seems to me that many of the comments attacking the fat jokes were just as in violation of the rules. They were unoriginal ‘jokes’ that often approached being memes in and of themselves.
by Snuffleupagus on Jan 25, 2012 5:33 PM PST up reply actions 6 recs
Oh and also because #1 is apparently not effective at getting the rules across
Based on the fact this rule has been around for years, and everyone was asked nicely in the listed rules, and we’ve additionally tried that method probably hundreds of times in the comments as well just to give people a chance, and people don’t care to stick to the standards regardless.
Exactly why it should be official people taking charge of these situations.
Not some vaguely defined group of "reguLLars." If it’s too much work for two people then give the select actual titles so we can know if the guy bitching about your post is a prophet of the almighties or just some grumpy guy who woke up on the wrong side of the bed.
Doug Fister. :(
by Mothy on Jan 25, 2012 7:55 PM PST via Android app up reply actions 1 recs
Or people could just, you know, not make terrible fucking jokes
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 25, 2012 7:58 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Because everyone has the same sense of humor,
so it really is that simple.
Doug Fister. :(
by Mothy on Jan 25, 2012 10:03 PM PST via Android app up reply actions 2 recs
Sorry, but not in this case.
It’s explicitly spelled out in the rules:
At the same time, we loathe played out jokes, no matter how funny they were originally… Jack Cust fat jokes belong in a middle school. … Don’t bring it here.
by Matthew on Jan 25, 2012 10:11 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
A played out joke to you isn't played out for others.
Someone reading the site for the first time won’t be as bored of (fr.ex.) fat jokes as you are now. Plus. Jeff himself used fatjokes aplenty in the ….WATCH threads. I’ve found it fairly unappetizing to watch this community go from tongue in cheek appraising Jeff’s to lashing out violently to people “trying to fit it” by emulating and rehashing a joke they’ve heard, as we men are prone.
by Tamuzi on Jan 25, 2012 11:11 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I'll let Matthew or whomever respond later.
But you (and everyone new) should know that we go through these arguments/discussions like twice a year, and every time people come and defend bad jokes or rules violations or whatever, and over time they all come around. Almost every single person that you consider a “regular” now started out as a really annoying commenter that hated the rules of this site and engaged in one of these conversations just as you are now, and over time they’ve come to see that the high standards here make this place better. It may not always seem like it, but it’s how it’s always been and it’s how it always will be.
Also, there is no such thing as a funny joke that’s an easy joke, and fat jokes are easy jokes. Played out has nothing to do with this site. Easy jokes (like fat jokes) are played out everywhere. They’re bad jokes. They’re the knock knock jokes of the Internet generation, and they don’t belong here.
...and now I'm here
Oh please.
Fat jokes are specifically listed.
I don't know
I came here somewhat recently and no one dogged on me. I however didn’t troll the site with fat jokes after being repeatedly asked to stop.
by Ballard Erik on Jan 25, 2012 1:27 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
LL has a weakness for guys who spell Erik with a K.
How come you can do all this other great shit, but you can't lie the fuck down and sleep?
I read for maybe a month or so before I jumped in and started commenting.
I personally have found it to be a very welcoming community. I ask all kinds of stupid questions all the time, since I have a pretty limited baseball background, and I don’t think I’ve ever been beat up on for any of that.
The only times I can remember being called out on things is when I’ve made assertions without anything tangible to back them up.
And come on, is it really that hard if you have a bunch of people to say “We don’t like that, don’t do that here” to back off? Especially if you haven’t been around a long time?
We seem to get this kind of post/attitude from time to time (not having a go at you, just latest example), and the examples I can recall always seem to be from someone who has copped an attitude along the lines of “You can’t tell me what to do” or in this case, have stemmed from someone with that attitude.
Yes, some of the longer time commenters here have less patience and are more pointed in their feedback, but welcome to the internet.
I’ve never once considered this place to be either contentious or unwelcoming – quite the opposite. But it has always felt to me like something of a “closed community” in so far as it is what it is, and if you don’t want to conform to its norms, you’re not going to be made especially welcome.
I’ve never NOT felt welcome here, and always felt free to contribute – but it’s not a comments thread on say a Yahoo site. There are rules and expectations, and that only makes it a better place.
by Aussie Mariner on Jan 25, 2012 2:34 PM PST up reply actions
You have a natural, ugh, voice for lack of a better phrase
It reads very well, timing and rhythm pretty much as spoken. If this makes sense. Plus a healthy dose of humility without sacrificing personality.
You’re one of those people that drop in so seamlessly I forget when you started commenting. Chris Hafner was like that, a couple others. There’s been some very enjoyable new commenters this year.
by Kermit. on Jan 25, 2012 2:40 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I posted something damn near identical to this a couple of years ago on a post about the "unwelcomeness" of the community.
The sad thing is the few terrible, terrible commenters basically ruined it for anyone that comes in and says anything that violates the rules. This is one of the few blogs on the entire internet that doesn’t have a pile of shit for a commentors section.
I've been here since the middle of last season.
There have been a couple of times when people have very kindly told me how to use the site better, and I’ve appreciated it every time. I’ve felt very welcomed.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
by extavernmouse on Jan 26, 2012 1:13 AM PST up reply actions
Duly noted. Thanks guys
All links have been read in full and I will do my best to follow any and all guidelines. For the record I haven’t felt personally attacked yet, I have just noticed hostility at some point in the limited sample size of threads I’ve viewed so far (yea I know, comment section with hostility…go figure). But again, that’s why I said “first impression” and not “formed opinion”.
Like I said, I love the blog. And I wouldn’t be here if I didn’t want to be kept appraised of and discuss all new developments for a team I truly believe is (finally) about to blossom.
Lurking seriously helps.
I’ve been reading LL since 2008 and I just joined a couple of weeks ago. Learn the community and don’t smart-ass when someone tells you to follow the rules. The tight-knit community and its’ aggression towards newcomers who make dumb jokes are what makes Lookout Landing the best.
by FreeSeanKazmar on Jan 26, 2012 5:48 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I've been reading since 2009.
And I’ve barely posted. I love the content of the writers and most of the comments tend to be enlightening.
Nice ad hominem.
I used to participate more on LL, but the clique has gotten very strong.
by batura on Jan 25, 2012 11:36 AM PST up reply actions 9 recs
What is "the clique"
There are no cliques
by Poochie on Jan 25, 2012 11:39 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I think he is talking about the movie The Clique, and how its following has grown quite strong around here
I for one have seen it 6 times. I know Massie is supposed to be the bitch and whatever but Claire is so pathetic and obnoxious that I find myself rooting for Massie every time. Am I the only one?
by Dewey N on Jan 25, 2012 12:05 PM PST up reply actions 10 recs
I have never heard of this and I feel so left out... :(
Can we talk about The Craft? I’ve seen that a million times.
follow @casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on Jan 25, 2012 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
I will admit to rec'ing the giant Prince Fielder is fat pic yesterday purely because i knew it would infuriate a bunch of us.
How come you can do all this other great shit, but you can't lie the fuck down and sleep?
What do you mean?
in that the reguLLars police both each other and the rest of the site?
Yes, I would say that the way one becomes a reguLLar is to enjoy the type of community we have, so yes, the clique is quite strong
by seattlebruin on Jan 25, 2012 12:39 PM PST up reply actions
And this does not mean it is exclusive in any way
by seattlebruin on Jan 25, 2012 12:39 PM PST up reply actions
Is it really possible to become an accepted reguLLar though?
I know I’m approaching a year of commenting (after about a year of lurking) and I don’t feel “in”. I feel like I could still get dismissed with a “Who are you? (How dare you speak?)” from a reguLLar at any time. I disagreed with Matthew once about Mike Carp’s value to the organization and got shutdown obviously and I was worried for a while I would be labelled a troll and ran off the site. Thankfully I knew when to shut up, which seems to be what so many of the trolls don’t know how to do.
by algorhythm on Jan 25, 2012 1:21 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
Kermit and Kenneth Arthur are examples of guys who were not well-received when they got here and are now reguLLars.
by JY on Jan 25, 2012 1:24 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Is that Geoff Baker?
Being serious, it sorta looks like it could be him.
How come you can do all this other great shit, but you can't lie the fuck down and sleep?
Me too.
Maybe this is the key.
follow @casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on Jan 26, 2012 9:09 AM PST up reply actions
Actually, I was at first. For about a week, then took a hard left for a loooooong time
Mostly too many comments, is what I remember. Responding to every subthread with a bunch of stupid comments.
Then they nominated you for President.
Weird how things work out
by Craptastic-J on Jan 26, 2012 4:20 PM PST up reply actions
*voted.
We voted for Kermit. for America!
by seattlebruin on Jan 27, 2012 11:03 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm just about in the same boat. One year just about.
I’ve had my good comments and bad comments. What was funny, was, the other day I went back and looked at some of my first comments here last year, some of which you can tell don’t really fit around here. You kind of catch on slowly but surely.
Yeah all you need to do is photoshop Jeff's face onto a clown and you're in
It’s a rite of passage
by Dewey N on Jan 25, 2012 1:34 PM PST up reply actions 6 recs
Now see I couldn't tell if I was being challenged to do that and the reception would have been good...
Or if that was a test and I wouldn’t gotten torn down bad had I done it…
Knowing when to shut up or when to stop pursuing an argument is a under utilized skill for most internet users.
LL has shown me that’s okay to expect more from an internet community and I love LL for that.
by sanford_and_son on Jan 25, 2012 1:40 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
The internet is constant reminder to me how little people actually respect one another
In real life it all gets hidden, but the minute people are put in a place with no regulation… it’s awful. And it’s seeping back out into the world.
I don't really feel like a regular and been reading and posting here since 2005. There are two reasons for this:
1. I have extremely busy times are work, so I can’t swing in everyday.
2. I rarely have anything truly constructive to add to the conversation.
So, if you want to become a “regular” come in often and add information to the conversation. Also, be willing to admit when you don’t know. Ask lots of questions. Folks here like to share what they know. And never whine that you are not part of the in crowd.
Hope that helps.
Honostly, that's why I'm here. To learn more and be a better fan. Before LL, I sounded like some dipshit Sports Radio caller.
Now I’m a bit more informed. The community here is smart, really fucking smart. Accepting you’re the new guy in their house will get you accepted here faster then being a dickhead who doesn’t listen to the regulars.
by FreeSeanKazmar on Jan 26, 2012 6:01 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, you can.
Sometimes people naturally fit in, and sometimes people take their bumps and bruises before they are considered a reguLLar.
by seattle_since_81 on Jan 25, 2012 4:20 PM PST up reply actions
So does that make Kermit HHH?
Stuck in mid-card hell for 5 years as punishment?
@Goose1701
by Goose on Jan 25, 2012 2:19 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
It's not appropriate to make fat jokes
There should be no fat jokes and thus no need for back and forth over a settled issue. Blame the people who make them and force people to rehash something that shouldn’t need to be rehashed.
My mistake. I didn't read the 300+ comments on the other thread before posting here.
Your vitriol is understood and accepted.
by HititHere on Jan 25, 2012 10:43 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
You have been here long enough to know that we're not particularly approving of Prince Fielder fat jokes
by seattlebruin on Jan 25, 2012 10:44 AM PST up reply actions
Yup, my bad, sorry LL. Poor judgement. I was surprised by the harsh reaction until I got the context
and now it makes perfect sense.
by HititHere on Jan 25, 2012 11:02 AM PST up reply actions 13 recs
re: the draft
You said this above…
One consideration I hadn’t yet seen mentioned is that for the third season in four, the Mariners have a top three pick in the MLB draft. Those picks are not cheap to sign so perhaps some of the slush money is going to end up there.
That would be cool, if we could do that, but I think that the new CBA might prevent us from doing so if it is indeed already in effect (that point, I’m a little hazy on). Here are some snippets from the BA synopsis:
While baseball won’t have a hard slotting system present in other sports—in which every selection in a draft gets a designated, non-negotiable bonus payment—teams will have specified budgets for drafts and international signings.
Under the new system, each club will get an aggregate bonus pool for the first 10 rounds of the draft, based on all of its picks—each of which will be assigned a value. While clubs will not be required to stick to the value of each pick, they will be expected to come in under the overall budget number.
-————————————————————
Under the new rules, teams that exceed the signing budget by up to 5 percent will pay a 75 percent tax on the overage. Teams that go over by 5-10 percent will pay the same tax and lose a first-round pick in the next year’s draft. Teams that go over by 10-15 percent will pay a 100 percent tax and lose a first- and second-round pick. And finally, teams that go over by more than 15 percent will pay the 100 percent tax and lose their first-round picks in the next two drafts.
Notably, if you don’t sign one of your picks in the first 10 rounds, you can’t spend that money on other picks. You lose that allotment from your signing allowance. Also, any bonus for more than $100,000 for a pick after the 10th round also counts as part of a team’s signing allowance.
International signings will have a similar pool, with similar penalties. Going over by up to 5 percent kicks in the 75 percent tax; 5-10 percent includes the same tax and a loss of the right to sign more than one player for a bonus of more than $500,000. Go over by 10-15 percent and a team incurs the 100 percent tax and can’t sign any player for more than $500,000. Going over by more than 15 percent draws the 100 percent tax and prohibition to sign any player for more than $250,000.
The tl;dr version is that there are now “bonus pools” involved and if those pools are exceeded, heavy fines ensue.
I predict that a lot of players will be getting $99,999 bonuses this draft
by seattlebruin on Jan 25, 2012 12:26 PM PST up reply actions
I think my point is that teams will find ways to game the system
instead of giving a guy an $800,000 bonus, give him $99,999 and then give him a guaranteed salary of $350,000 the first two years.
I’m sure they already closed the really obvious loopholes, but anytime there’s a new system like this, the smart teams will exploit it
by seattlebruin on Jan 25, 2012 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
I was being serious
The goal of a player agent is to maximize revenue for their clients. if the cap on bonuses is $100K, I would be willing to bet that bonuses will come in at $99,999.99 almost every time.
I think most teams will make it an even 100k.
Unless they are a dollar over budget or just like making things difficult.
I am sure it will be one cent below whatever the MLB designated line is
if it is worded “over $100,000,” the bonuses will be $100,000. If it is worded “$100,000 or more,” the bonuses will be $99,999.99
by seattlebruin on Jan 25, 2012 12:40 PM PST up reply actions
Or if Scott Boras is the agent and the team turns around and sees that somehow they paid a bonus of $5 million.
And the GM just sort of wakes from a trance and says “What happened?”
follow @casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on Jan 25, 2012 1:02 PM PST up reply actions
Going over what I can access...
the reported bonus of $100k or more from after the tenth round in last year’s draft included C Mike Dowd (12), C/IF Jack Marder (16), OF Nathan Melendres (17), LHP Nick Valenza (18), C Luke Guarnaccia (19), and RHP Gabe Saquilon (25). In 2010, the $100k or more club included IF Stefen Romero (12), RHP Charles Kaalekahi (15), LHP Jordan Shipers (16, he got $800k). It doesn’t look like we exceeded that for any pick outside the top ten in 2009 since Ackley and Franklin and Baron ate all of our cookies (curiously, Catricala signed for $90k). In any case, it’s more likely that prep kids will be harder to pull away from college commitments because of the limits in bonuses (there are rumors that the international changes have already pushed more towards soccer), so we probably wouldn’t see as many of the Valenza/Saquilon/Shipers group in the future.
by JY on Jan 25, 2012 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
I don't understand why people didn't make hippie jokes about Fielder.
He’s got a beard.
by sea-townie on Jan 25, 2012 1:57 PM PST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
I found out that being a vegetarian can mean just eating potato chips and soda.
Or other processed foods that are not healthy.
I was a vegetarian for about 8 years
and the last 4 were nothing but pasta and cheese.
I have been a vegetarian for 24 of my 28 years of life.
Pasta and cheese have been my diet for 28 of my 28 years.
...and now I'm here
Or like you've spent 2.1 million minutes of your life physically consuming meat?
That makes more sense…
I haven't eaten meat since I was 4. Maybe 6, I can't remember.
But, you know, off topic and all that.
...and now I'm here
Seriously though, fuck salad.
...and now I'm here
by CapSea on Jan 25, 2012 9:47 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I can't tell you how fucking annoying it was for my parents to tell other parents I was a vegetarian.
And those fuckers ordered meat pizza for their kids and instead of ordered just one cheese pizza they made me a fucking salad. Fuck salad.
...and now I'm here
by CapSea on Jan 25, 2012 9:09 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
Onion rings are vegetarian.
Deep-fried battered macaroni wedges (at my former home bar in Portland) are vegetarian. We vegetarians are not necessarly by definition healthy eaters.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
by extavernmouse on Jan 26, 2012 1:19 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah I read that earlier when I googled it.
But I’m not buying it. He has stated that he is, and has never stated otherwise. Also, Peta still thinks he is, and that dude wants to sell ribs.
From a Sporting News interview from August, quoted, referenced and linked in that post:
SN: Are you still a vegetarian?
FIELDER: Nope. No more ofthat anymore. It was OK, but as far as the schedule and all that and trying to eat like that, that’s a lot of work and something you have to map out. I still eat good, though.
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 25, 2012 7:10 PM PST up reply actions
Can we just agree that no one here will ever talk about this again?
by Smegmalicious on Jan 25, 2012 2:12 PM PST up reply actions
I'd just as soon move past the Great Fielder Fat Fight of 2012 as well.
How come you can do all this other great shit, but you can't lie the fuck down and sleep?
by JAH on Jan 25, 2012 2:26 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I would too, aside from the fact that you gave it such a catchy moniker.
It rolls right off the tongue. So much fun to say.
It's been a master class in LL etiquette.
If I ever decide to do more than lurk (member for three years, reader for countless years before that, a whopping 52 posts), I’ll just refer back to this thread in addition to the guidelines.
Taking a step back, here's what I think:
New people making fat jokes: It’s not you, really. It’s just the joke. It’s a pretty lazy joke and it’s been done like ten hundred million thousand times. Please keep in mind that it’s not people flipping out because you made one bad joke. They’re flipping out because it’s the 75th time they’re read that joke in the last two days despite there being a rule (13) admonishing them here. It’s the cumulative exposure that makes us sometimes snap. We rarely mean anything personal by it. However, please do read the rules.
People who have been shouting down the fat jokes: I get that it’s irritating. Believe me. I. Get. It. I have to read every single word that gets posted on here. I’ve yelled too. But it’s an overreaction and we’re not being helpful or welcoming by doing it. I don’t intend that LL be welcoming to stupid jokes. No. But we can still be welcoming to people and jumping all over them isn’t that. Deep breathes. Relax. And then try on a “A joke centered on Prince Fielder being really fat is just not funny. It’s been played to death here, everywhere, and we really like to do original stuff here. Please read Rule 13 on the guidelines you agreed to.” Or something like that.
People criticizing the people shouting down the fat jokes: Please also keep in mind that many of the people most upset are people who read through much of this site, so they might be in a frustrated state of mind because they are seeing the 140th derivation of the same tired joke. But — just like above — shouting at them isn’t going to do any good. So if you think someone has gone too far, just try to keep it calm. “Hey, I get that you’re frustrated by it, but internet yelling isn’t helpful.” Something like that. Also, letting it slide is not what we’re about here. We’ve roughed the seas of thousands of internet memes and so far remained amazingly intact and we love our little oasis.
Bottom line; let us all try a little bit harder to be understanding of, and courteous to, the people we’re replying to.
by Matthew on Jan 25, 2012 6:55 PM PST up reply actions 32 recs
First impressions redux
Observing these past few threads from start to finish culminating in this post-from-the-host, all I can say is…wow. In the span of about 48 hours I’ve gone from loving a blog to being more intrigued by an internet fan-community than I have ever been. I never knew that all this time there was an organized gathering of semi-intelligent Mariner fans (years of local sports radio and conversations with emotional, hyperbole spewing chuckleheads had left me numb and seemingly hopeless). I am all tingly with baseball goodness right now. I can’t even articulate my current state beyond that, all I know is I want to stay and I am willing to endure the occasional bitch-smack from salty old curmudgeons in order to do so.
by C Dubya on Jan 25, 2012 8:22 PM PST up reply actions 7 recs
or ESPN
Especially the game-threads and divisional blogs (for football at least). Ugly stuff
by Papa Chelmon on Jan 25, 2012 11:02 PM PST up reply actions
I don't even bother with ESPN. The entire conversations go like this:
“YOUR TEAM SUCKS!”
“NO, YOUR TEAM SUCKS!”
“The (Insert terribly unfunny insulting nickname for team) are a joke.”
If anyone tries to comment with any intelligence, it is just swallowed by 1,000 more comments of stupidity.
or (lately) ussmariner!
The comments on that site are getting pretty awful.
by the tourist on Jan 25, 2012 11:10 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
At least the sad man who commented on every post appears to have found something else to do.
by Mariner John on Jan 26, 2012 1:59 PM PST up reply actions
A Monteroesque blast over the center field fence.
The game was against the Yankees.
In the playoffs
In extra innings.
A small child catches the ball.
Everyone is better having seen it.
by Craptastic-J on Jan 26, 2012 4:36 PM PST up reply actions
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