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Michael Pineda Traded, Jesus Montero Also Traded

Wbc_029_tiny by Jeff Sullivan on in Seattle Mariners Transactions

Dinger hitter!

I'm not writing that as "Michael Pineda Traded For Jesus Montero" because it doesn't look like this is straight up. MLB says that the Mariners and Yankees are finalizing a four-player trade, and Greg Johns says a source tells him the Mariners are including Jose Campos, and the Yankees are including Hector Noesi. So that's what we have. But barring some complete surprise in a physical, Michael Pineda is gone, and Jesus Montero is replacing him (but not really).

We're going to have longer reaction posts later on. Obviously, this is the sort of move that you can't wrap your head around in an instant. Pineda is a top young starting pitcher with five more years of team control. Montero is a top young hitter with six more years of team control (haha!). Campos and Noesi are players too. There are only four players involved - two on each side - but there's so much here. So many countless angles.

But my instant reaction is "I think I'm okay with it but I definitely don't love it." Pineda, obviously, has concerns. He doesn't have a changeup. More important than anything else, he's a hard-throwing young starting pitcher who faces a bunch of health questions. But it's not like Montero is some sort of sure thing. Is he a catcher? Is he a first baseman? Is he a DH? What to make of his .843 OPS in triple-A?

Montero is very young, with very big power, and I'm ecstatic that he's going to play for the Mariners, somewhere. The cost, though, is high, and ultimately what I think makes me the happiest is fuck you, PRINCE FIELDER WATCH, I'm done with you forever!

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Read More: Jesus Montero (DH - SEA), Hector Noesi (P - SEA), Michael Pineda (P - NYY), New York Yankees, Seattle Mariners

Comments

Display:

Oh balls.

I’ve always like the Prince Fielder Watch…

Don't be an idiot. If an idiot would do that, then don't do it. Muahahahaaha back on twitter

by RagingAlot on Jan 13, 2012 5:01 PM PST reply actions  

Definitley not loving this.

Starting rotation is going to be ugly besides Felix until Hultzen and Paxton come up.

by Vogelscheuche on Jan 13, 2012 5:03 PM PST reply actions  

Sounds like the Yankees already got him

To improve, they should try to become the musical southern cal of the west. - bRuins Nation poster on the Stanford band.

by bluemax on Jan 13, 2012 5:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, one thing is for sure

Our farm system ranking just shot up

by Vegasexpat on Jan 13, 2012 5:04 PM PST reply actions  

I liked the farm system the way it was.

Especially with Campos on the rise.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

@JamesDaBear

by jameslcrockett on Jan 13, 2012 6:05 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Don't worry: in the next few years you will hear about how Campos is the second coming of Justin Verlander

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot

by beastwarking on Jan 13, 2012 6:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Campos may be the real loss

Noesi doesn’t make sense to even things up. It’s the throw ins that the Yanks
always win in trades. I’m hoping there is more to this….

by jjmalden on Jan 13, 2012 5:05 PM PST reply actions  

Montero has opposite field power, too. Of his 4 HRs, 3 of them went to RF, and two were no-doubters.

SSS yes, but that’s certainly encouraging.

King Felix's Court: The Mariner blog for fans that like copious amounts of noise and alcohol.

by BrettJMiller on Jan 13, 2012 5:24 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Scouts rave on the guy's power.

I don’t think that’s ever really been in question. And for a 21 year old, that’s pretty fucking good.

I’m not really worried about Montero hitting, even at SafeCo. It’s the positional problem, much like what others are talking about.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 13, 2012 5:32 PM PST up reply actions  

But Pineda *plus Campos*?

IMHO, Pineda’s worth that by himself. Why the heck would we give up another high-ceiling pitching prospect?

"Baseball isn't the world's best distraction, but only because it's so easy to start a fire." --Jeff Sullivan

by The Ancient Mariner on Jan 13, 2012 5:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Because we're good in high ceiling pitchers...

and we’re getting more than Montero in return. I trust in Jack Z is what I’m going with, but damn…

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Just North of Wrigley Field

@JamesDaBear

by jameslcrockett on Jan 13, 2012 6:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Nobody is so good in high-ceiling pitchers

that they can afford to punt one. More than Montero, yeah; but Noesi isn’t enough to justify sending Campos along, too.

"Baseball isn't the world's best distraction, but only because it's so easy to start a fire." --Jeff Sullivan

by The Ancient Mariner on Jan 13, 2012 6:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Having depth doesn't mean you trade it casually.

Our chances of getting one of those high ceiling guys to pan out looks a lot better if you KEEP Campos than getting rid of him. You don’t trade away MORE than you have to ever.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 13, 2012 6:16 PM PST up reply actions  

I get that...

I’m just trying to get in Jack Z’s head. I’m actually glad for all Mariners fans, that I’m not really able to do that all that easily or all that well.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

@JamesDaBear

by jameslcrockett on Jan 13, 2012 6:21 PM PST up reply actions  

I guess this better than trading away the entire future for today like Bavasi did in 07/08

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot

by beastwarking on Jan 13, 2012 6:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Don't try.

We’re fucking nuts.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 13, 2012 6:24 PM PST up reply actions  

This is stupid... you're stupid

I’m screening my calls so I can avoid the M’s ticket office. They need to stop calling, forever.

by Luscious James on Jan 13, 2012 5:05 PM PST reply actions  

Well, they got a SBN nation log in now...

How come you can do all this other great shit, but you can't lie the fuck down and sleep?

by JAH on Jan 13, 2012 5:18 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

If you are a previous season ticket holder

and have not renewed, they will call you incessantly.

Mariners/D Broncos/BSU Broncos fan in Seattle
The first rule of Lookout Landing is...

by appleshampoo on Jan 13, 2012 5:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Samsies.

That tips the balance, in my view.

by katal on Jan 13, 2012 5:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Same here. Don't like Montero for Pineda cause Montero is RH DH.. but what the hell

are we doing moving Campos as well?

We could have had this guy for Cliff Lee if we loved his bat so much. Justin Smoak needs a breakout year in a major way

by Rudy4three on Jan 13, 2012 5:12 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree.

But at the same time they can just go buy one.

by InSpokane on Jan 13, 2012 5:14 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Oh god, it's true

Not that the M’s don’t need a DH, but….

by Craptastic-J on Jan 13, 2012 5:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Assuming the M's want to give Montero all the opportunity to succeed / suck at catcher.

I could see them doing a couple of things. The most obvious is dealing Olivo. Another is that they could do a three catcher rotation. Let Montero / Olivo DH and Jaso catch against righties and Olivo DH while Montero C vs. lefties (or alternate).

Probably do some kind of split where Jaso gets about 80 games behind the dish with Olivo and Montero getting about 40 each.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 13, 2012 6:08 PM PST up reply actions  

More right handed bats against lefty pitching.

Presumably against a left hander the ideal line up would be something like

RF – Ichiro
2B – Ackley
1B – Smoak
C – Montero
DH – Olivo
LF – Wells
CF – Gutierrez
SS – Ryan
3B – Figgins / Liddi

What other person would you have DHing against a lefty? If the Mariners are serious about letting Montero learn catching, then he’s going to have to catch some time. You can’t just keep him at DH full time and say “he’s a catcher!”. Doesn’t work that way. As such, there isn’t a better bat on the bench, right now, to handle left handed pitching. So Olivo’s going to be in there somewhere. Naturally this is as the roster sits right now.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 14, 2012 6:43 PM PST up reply actions  

They didn't before...

since they also have Austin Romine and Gary Sanchez on the way.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

@JamesDaBear

by jameslcrockett on Jan 13, 2012 6:07 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Sancehz isn't that close.

Romine and Martin will hold down the fort for a while.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 13, 2012 6:16 PM PST up reply actions  

I think Montero was totally overvalued here.

It also usually easier to find hitters on the trade/FA market than pitching. And you tend to pay more with higher risk for pitching.

Ross on Halladay: "I’d tried everything against him…going the other way, taking pitches, trying to walk…and nothing worked. I’d never tried going up there and just trying to hit a home run off him."
My boy has mad hops
I rant on Twitter

by scout6 on Jan 13, 2012 5:08 PM PST reply actions  

Yep

I’d much prefer a team load up on quality cost-controlled pitching and spend most of their free agent money on position players, rather than the other way around. It’s not like free agent position players are anything like a guarantee, but it beats the hell out of the risk you take when spending that money to buy pitching.

by nathaniel dawson on Jan 13, 2012 5:58 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Which free agent position players?

The market is pretty crap right now, and IMHO you almost always overpay for hitters via free agency.

by Smegmalicious on Jan 13, 2012 9:39 PM PST up reply actions  

You don't overpay for pitchers in free agency?

I’d say that pitching is equally expensive, if not more so. But the real difference in my mind is the risk that comes with committing free agent money to pitchers. Teams usually don’t get as much return on their investment when signing pitchers than they get from position players, which means your free agency dollars aren’t buying as much.

It’s not about this season, or any one season, it’s about a long-term philosophy of positioning your team to not have a need to buy pitching in free agency. The only way you can do that is to have a lot of talented, club control pitchers in hand. Trading away a guy like Michale Pineda makes it harder for the M’s to put themselves in that type of position in the future.

by nathaniel dawson on Jan 14, 2012 9:20 AM PST up reply actions  

Guess again.

Guy calling in on the radio just say Jack Z is stupid for not getting Montero for Lee so we could have Pineda AND Montero

How come you can do all this other great shit, but you can't lie the fuck down and sleep?

by JAH on Jan 13, 2012 5:21 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

That about covers it

The big question is where the M’s see Montero playing. Is he at 1B with a trade for Smoak imminent? Seems unlikely. Will he and Smoak share 1B/DH? More likely. Does Carp get dealt or moved to a left field platoon with Wells? I would guess the latter.

One factor that gives me some comfort with the deal is that pitchers are more volatile than position players and more likely to break down. Montero is more likely to remain healthy than either of the players the M’s dealt away. The M’s risk in the deal is mainly around whether Montero can truly hit, and if he can play a position. With his glowing scouting reports at the plate, I think even if he’s a 1B/DH I like the deal. The M’s haven’t exactly set records developing players at those positions recently.

by short on Jan 13, 2012 5:09 PM PST reply actions  

I think Olivo is the odd man out

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot

by beastwarking on Jan 13, 2012 5:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Why cant we still add Prince Fielder?

Since this deal involves club controlled players why does this eliminate the Mariners from pursuing Prince as well.

C Montero
1B Fielder
2B Ackley
SS Ryan
3B ???
LF Carp/Wells
CF Guti
RF Ichiro
DH Smoak

by Ike Fontaine on Jan 13, 2012 5:10 PM PST reply actions  

He's a special assistant to Jack now, but yeah

I still think it’s relatively unlikely Montero can stick at catcher, but there is nothing to be lost by trying. Particularly since 2012 is going to be a rough year for the Mariners anyway.

by Jeff Nye on Jan 13, 2012 5:18 PM PST up reply actions  

I think Wedge could help him out there too.

I think Olivo is just fat. lazy and stubborn. One of Z’s worst signings. I’m not giving up on Montero becoming the next Mike Piazza.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

@JamesDaBear

by jameslcrockett on Jan 14, 2012 12:46 AM PST up reply actions  

You're probably right...

though even FanGraphs will state they can’t quantify a catcher’s defensive value with certainty. I’d be happy with never watching him behind the plate ever again. I’m a big fan of Jack Z, and the fact that is one of his worst signings is why.

BB-ref has him .2 WAR for last year, which would be really bad. Like always, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

@JamesDaBear

by jameslcrockett on Jan 14, 2012 12:21 PM PST up reply actions  

I said "One of"

I’m not a big fan of the thought process that led to signing Olivo. It’s not the same with Figgins, as poorly as it’s worked out.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

@JamesDaBear

by jameslcrockett on Jan 14, 2012 12:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Good for both sides.

I don’t see that Seattle had much option here. Pineda was the logical starter to trade and Montero’s Offensive potential is very high. The Mariners are desperate for power bats and waiting until Pineda suffers an injury would be self defeating. If… (big if) Montero can serve as a useful catcher as well as fill in at 1b & DH… and with Seattle’s good young minor league starting pitching just a few seasons away… this should be a good deal for Seattle.

by algionfriddo on Jan 13, 2012 5:10 PM PST reply actions  

WOW, three top Prospects?

As always, it had to start with Cano

by Agent_J on Jan 13, 2012 5:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Their three top prospects suck.

By comparison to other team’s three top prospects.

Depends on who they mean, tho. Probably Montero, Banuelos, and Bettances, who are all flawed in some rather significant way. If Gary Sanchez was involved, it looks less stupid, but I still wouldn’t do it.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 13, 2012 5:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Felix: Owed $57 million over 3 years, projects to be worth maybe 15 wins over those 3 years.

Pineda: Will make something like $15-30 million over his 5 years of team control (depending on performance), worth between something like 15-20 wins over 5 years.

Pineda is obviously the more valuable asset; why would the Mariners turn down a much, much better package for a less valuable asset (Felix) and then trade away Pineda and a top Mariner prospect?

Mariners fan in SF :: @Eric_Dykstra

by lailaihei on Jan 17, 2012 9:59 PM PST up reply actions  

And here's why:

You’ve badly misapplied the values and cost of Pineda. First you lock in that he’s going to 3.5 WAR per year, each year, for the next five. That’s, whatever, you want to go with that. But if you do, $15-$30 million (depending on performance? but you just outlined his performance! Inconsistent logic there) is terribly short changing him.

He’s going to be a Super-2 so he’s due 2 full market seasons worth of pay over his arbitration years (.2+.4+.6+.8) plus one club-controlled year of about $500K. Those arb years are spread out over a 4-year period of 2013-6 and the $/WAR is increasing, so probably ends up with a weighted average of around $5.5M per WAR. Since you’re assuming 3.5 WAR of performance that means Pineda’s cost comes to around $40 million through arbitration, (significantly) more if he’s better at the tail end, near free agency.

The above totally ignores his likely higher bust risk compared to Felix.

Finally, the package of the Yankees 3 biggest prospects has been, and long known, to be Montero, Betances and Banuelos. Betances and Banuelos are underwhelming and less interesting than Noesi is on his own. Montero + Noesi is the better package.

by Matthew on Jan 17, 2012 11:47 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

The bust rate for Felix is much worse, I think.

If Pineda turns out to be broken/injured/mediocre, he won’t cost the Yankees anything (worst case scenario, they don’t tender him a contract). If Felix gets injured or starts declining, they still have to pay his entire salary.

Let’s compare this way. If you add up the costs of his arbitration years, it’s paying for 2 years and getting “free” 3 years. Is there more equity in 3 free years of Pineda, or the 3 years of Felix in his current contract?

Mariners fan in SF :: @Eric_Dykstra

by lailaihei on Jan 18, 2012 8:13 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm not playing a moving goalposts game.

Your argument was off base, I detailed why. I’m not going to chase around slightly different framings of the exact same thing. There are no free years. That’s ridiculous. You’re shifting costs around for who knows what reason and you’re doing it poorly by asking a question that tosses out the costs entirely. You might as well imply that Felix has two free years and one really expensive year.

by Matthew on Jan 18, 2012 8:26 AM PST up reply actions  

What I'm trying to say is, Felix is basically getting market value, and thus has little equity if any.

Pineda is getting league minimum for 1 year, then .2x value, .4x value, .6x value, .8x value for the next 4 years. That means that 100% of his year 1 performance is equity, 80% of his year 2 performance, etc.

If he’s broken/sucks, of course the amount of that equity goes down. But even if he’s a 2-win player for the next 5 years, he’ll get paid as if he was worth ~4 wins when he’s actually worth 10. 6 wins of equity, which I don’t think you can find in Felix’s current deal.

To the other part of the deal, maybe Noesi is better than Betances and Banuelos. But is Noesi better than Betances, Banuelos, and Campos?

Mariners fan in SF :: @Eric_Dykstra

by lailaihei on Jan 18, 2012 8:50 AM PST up reply actions  

If you replace "Felix" with "generic pitcher as good as Felix with the same contract"

I doubt people would be so hostile to the idea of trading him. Pineda, right now, with his contract has more equity than Felix, right now, with his contract.

Using current $/win of 4.5m, increasing $.5m/yr.
Assuming payscale for Pineda is $500k, .2x value, .4x value, .6x value, .8x value.
Projecting Felix’s WAR over the next 3 years to be (a generous) 6, 5.5, 5
Projecting Pineda’s WAR over the next 5 years to be 3.5, 3.5, 3, 3, 2.5

I get $24m equity in Felix’s contract and $49.6m equity in Pineda’s deal.

Mariners fan in SF :: @Eric_Dykstra

by lailaihei on Jan 18, 2012 9:19 AM PST up reply actions  

It's not the label attached to Felix, it's that your presenting your case poorly

and started off terribly with a extremely hyperbolic statement about Z being terrible.

Arbitration rewards generally increase even if a pitcher was injured or ineffective and Pineda is a bigger risk than Felix to be one or both of those over the next 5 seasons. If Pineda flames out, how much equity does he have? I don’t get the sense that you are properly weighting that possibility with your WAR values.

is Noesi better than Betances, Banuelos, and Campos?

I think clearly yes. Noesi can contribute right now, he’s a good bet to return some value. Perhaps even some significant value over cost-controlled years. None of the other three are. Even combined it’s still long odds.

Pineda may be the more valuable asset right now, but it’s a lot closer than you’re presenting it and nowhere near warrants your original statement.

by Matthew on Jan 18, 2012 9:46 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree I was a bit hyperbolic.

But I disagree that Pineda is a bigger risk. Due to the year-to-year nature of arbitration, it’s almost impossible for Pineda to turn into a negative asset, whereas it’s certainly possible with Felix. Even if Pineda only puts up average (2 WAR) seasons over the next 3 years, then requires Tommy John surgery and isn’t tendered a contract for the last 2 years of team control, he’s still a net asset by a long, long ways.

Mariners fan in SF :: @Eric_Dykstra

by lailaihei on Jan 18, 2012 9:55 AM PST up reply actions  

Yankees fans love Montero.

I’ve been arguing with one since this started, none of them care that he is a DH on a team that has got DH locked up for the next decade already.

by wetzelcoal on Jan 13, 2012 5:13 PM PST up reply actions  

No…

"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth

366 Up, 366 Down

by Andrew GM on Jan 13, 2012 11:46 PM PST up reply actions  

See this as Montero minus Pineda

plus some nice FA’s next offseason at 3B, LF, C, SP, etc.. Not signing Fielder will let the M’s fill some other needs and retain good young players in the future.

by short on Jan 13, 2012 5:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes, because the M's still need to do something about

catcher and third base. So they can’t go blow a boat load of money on another guy that can’t play defense.

by InSpokane on Jan 13, 2012 5:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck

I’ll probably more calm once it sets in, but fuck. Pineda was so adorable

by MilesC on Jan 13, 2012 5:17 PM PST reply actions  

No No No No

No No No…. Not for Montero. Please. This can’t be everything. Pineda was too good.

by John Woody on Jan 13, 2012 5:17 PM PST reply actions  

Now you can remember Pineda for the year he was awesome...

and not have to endure what would happen if his arm broke off at the elbow in a year or two.

by PissedMick on Jan 13, 2012 7:30 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm in the same boat

Montero is a stupid Yankee and Pineda is a giraffe. Giraffes are awesome and I never want to see them pitch for the Yankees

Determined, Jonesing Commentor

by Corco on Jan 13, 2012 5:23 PM PST up reply actions   6 recs

Bavasi would have traded

Pineda for Doug Davis, Marlon Byrd, Rodrigo Lopez and Brian LaHair…

by marinerschas2 on Jan 13, 2012 6:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Brian LaHair would still be on the Mariners as the starting first basemen

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot

by beastwarking on Jan 13, 2012 6:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Exactly.

No one seems to understand that these trades are all about quantity. Whoever gets the most players in return wins; that’s like basic math.

by Liebkartoffel on Jan 13, 2012 6:29 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Yankee prospects are always over-hyped because of the market they are in.

That’s why everyone loses trades to them with the “little things.”

by John Woody on Jan 13, 2012 5:19 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Throw ins count

It’s the Noesi part of this that irritates me. Why toss in Campos as a freebie ?

by jjmalden on Jan 13, 2012 5:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Come to think of it

Jayson Stark

Montero-Pineda is one of most fascinating deals in years. Two young studs with star power. No money factor. A pure, old-time baseball trade

The deal features all young cost-controlled players. I think the fear amongst the respective fanbases is coming up monumentally short on swapping long term options.

by ThundaPC on Jan 13, 2012 5:21 PM PST reply actions   3 recs

I don't like this trade unless Montero can catch. Given the reports, I am starting to hate this more and more. Still, I guess he couldn't be much worst than Olivo.

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot

by beastwarking on Jan 13, 2012 5:21 PM PST reply actions  

The funny part is that Olivo isn't even that bad

If Montero can rake and put up Olivo defense behind the plate, I’d be fucking ecstatic.

by JLC on Jan 13, 2012 5:25 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Olivo doesn't rate that poorly at "framing" (refering to the research done by Mike Fast)

and even though he’s terrible a blocking pitches, he’s had several above average CS% season for his career, and is generally rated to have a plus arm. Most statistical analysis (a lot of which is in its infant stages) points to Miguel Olivo being slightly below average behind the plate.

But by all means, you are welcome to point me towards evidence that Olivo has well-below average defense or even one of the worst defensive catchers in the game.

by JLC on Jan 13, 2012 5:31 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

Define "that bad"

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot

by beastwarking on Jan 13, 2012 5:29 PM PST up reply actions  

This is pretty suprising from both sides.

Sorry for you guys (A’s fan), Pineda is a stud.
I think Montero may/ still could be better than perceived here.
I’m honestly pretty shocked the Bankee’s traded him, the fact that they did makes me question my previous statement a bit.

by brian.only on Jan 13, 2012 5:22 PM PST reply actions  

It was a ruse. He's always been a ruse.

That’s why we didn’t trade Cliff for him in the first place… We are getting boned.

by John Woody on Jan 13, 2012 5:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Nova isn't good

so I wouldn’t call it sexy, but it would probably make me like the trade

by Matthew on Jan 13, 2012 5:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Think of the puns!

Super Nova, meltdown, sunspot, etc etc

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot

by beastwarking on Jan 13, 2012 5:30 PM PST up reply actions  

OH NOESI!

Trust me, it could be worse. Much, much worse.

by ThomasG on Jan 13, 2012 5:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Is this an invitation?

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot

by beastwarking on Jan 13, 2012 5:35 PM PST up reply actions  

You're right: I would rather not be eaten by a Matthew

Seriously though I think Nova wouldn’t be the worst case of a throw in

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot

by beastwarking on Jan 13, 2012 5:38 PM PST up reply actions  

I also can't wait for the "Jesus" puns that are inevitable with Montero

Smoak, Jesus, Nova, Carp… this team is going to be a beat-writers dream

Today I Found Out

by TIFO on Jan 13, 2012 8:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Holy Smoak! Jesus hit that one!

"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth

366 Up, 366 Down

by Andrew GM on Jan 13, 2012 11:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Yankees just signed Kuroda.

Ross on Halladay: "I’d tried everything against him…going the other way, taking pitches, trying to walk…and nothing worked. I’d never tried going up there and just trying to hit a home run off him."
My boy has mad hops
I rant on Twitter

by scout6 on Jan 13, 2012 5:27 PM PST reply actions  

Poor Felix lost his Jedi Padawan

How come you can do all this other great shit, but you can't lie the fuck down and sleep?

by JAH on Jan 13, 2012 5:27 PM PST via mobile reply actions  

I decided to start googling all the prospect descriptions over the last few years on Montero.

Even though I had already read it all before, reading it again fresh definitely reassures me, people have said some amazing things about his bat.

by neel on Jan 13, 2012 5:31 PM PST reply actions  

From @YankeesWFAN
Was told SEA wanted Nova instead of Noesi but Yanks wouldn’t give. SEA eventually agreed on Noesi.

by wyte_lightning on Jan 13, 2012 5:33 PM PST reply actions  

It's okay to be a little down on Montero if you have to be

But we certainly didn’t have the only “commodity” in this trade. C’mon now.

by Jeff Nye on Jan 13, 2012 5:35 PM PST up reply actions  

I think in general cost controlled, high caliber, young SP is the commodity. Especially

when dealing with a team like NY, who are really only missing top end SP (let alone young top end starters)

I think we held the power here. Sucks that we settled in my opinion.

I think we are just too desperate for power hitting for 2012.

by Rudy4three on Jan 13, 2012 5:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes I agree, but I think when you have a young top end starting pitcher

you inevitably hold the power. To move a starter like this I think you need to be blown away by the player in return.

I don’t seen how Montero with his lack of positional value can be that player. Then we tossed in another Top 100 prospect.

by Rudy4three on Jan 13, 2012 5:41 PM PST up reply actions  

"Pineda has an injury history"

How many times have I heard this? He had ONE injury, which was not significant and kept him out for 3 months, which was likely longer than he really needed because the Mariners were being careful with him, and hasn’t shown any lingering effects or a hint of any other problems since then. How many pitchers can you find that have never had any kind of something or other? This guy’s just about as projectable and as reliable as you could find for a pitcher his age. Or any age. The notion that Pineda, for a pitcher, has any kind of increased injury risk seems absurd.

Sorry, I’ve just heard this over an over again, and I don’t know why people have this opinion of him. He looks to me like he’s going to be a “horse”.

by nathaniel dawson on Jan 13, 2012 6:54 PM PST up reply actions  

I have no objection to dealing one of the young arms. Just don't like

the player we got back in return. Pineda and Campos should have brought back a young hitter with positional value in my opinion. If a guy like that wasn’t available, I don’t think you had to rush into a trade this offseason. But I think our GM is desperate right now.

by Rudy4three on Jan 13, 2012 5:44 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Maybe the teams scouts think he can still play catcher?

This is the kind of deal that can’t be judged immediately. Let’s wait a few seasons and see how a guy with only one season in the majors and another with only a handful of at bats turn out before calling a winner.

by KC Mariner on Jan 13, 2012 5:44 PM PST up reply actions  

If they felt that, they would have trade Lee for him a yr and half ago.

Right? Wouldn’t he have held much more value as a power hitting catcher than Smoak?

by Rudy4three on Jan 13, 2012 5:45 PM PST up reply actions  

They may have liked Smoak more because of the LH power

It’s also possible that Montero has shown better development behind the dish since the Cliff Lee trade.

by JLC on Jan 13, 2012 5:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Before an off-season that started seeing a fan-base turn hostile.

I like Z, but I do get the sense that he’s running out of time.

by John Woody on Jan 13, 2012 5:39 PM PST up reply actions  

I didn't mean it in any way demeaning...

I’m on Z’s side. I think he’s done an excellent job. I’m even coming around to this trade. I like it. I’m just kind of worried that fan base displeasure is going to start rearing its ugly head. Geoff Baker is a HUGE reason why this is happening. And that is just another reason to not like him. Sorry if you didn’t catch my meaning.

by John Woody on Jan 15, 2012 3:08 AM PST up reply actions  

He's not on the hotseat.

If the guys he’s brought in fizzle next year then I’d say his job will be in danger.

by KC Mariner on Jan 13, 2012 5:42 PM PST up reply actions  

That doesn't mean a whole lot. He could still be fired, GM's (managers too) get fired all the time under their current deals.

If a team isn’t totally dissatisfied with their current GM, they’ll sign him to an extension to give things a longer look, but that’s no guarantee they’ll keep him around for the whole contract if he doesn’t bring the results they want.

by nathaniel dawson on Jan 13, 2012 6:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Some trending topics:
Kuroda
Pineda
Montero
Brian Cashman

by SeaKoala on Jan 13, 2012 5:34 PM PST reply actions  

I should really pick better days to sleep in late

Because right now I am incredibly irrationally angry waking up to this news.

by SuperDopaLiciousFunkStar on Jan 13, 2012 5:35 PM PST via mobile reply actions  

I know people don't like losing Campos.

Does he really project better than Walker, Paxton or Hultzen?

by voltron27 on Jan 13, 2012 5:37 PM PST reply actions  

No he doesn't but it isn't a stretch to think he'll be a Top 50 to Top 75 prospect if he has another good

season.

I just don’t get why he’s in this trade.

How can Montero be viewed as being worth Pineda and Campos?

Not to the mention the Yankees are desperate for top end starting pitching and have no place to bat Montero.

Seems like we should have been the ones playing hardball.

by Rudy4three on Jan 13, 2012 5:39 PM PST up reply actions  

I was thinking this too.

Don’t quite understand why the M’s had to include additional consideration. If anything, the Yankees should have.

by mkries on Jan 13, 2012 5:46 PM PST up reply actions  

No.

That we still have those three is fine, but it has no little relevance to this trade.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 13, 2012 5:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Hultzen & Paxton are more finished products

Campos has no ceiling at this point, like Walker. Noesi likely won’t get much better except for getting to pitch at Safeco.

by jjmalden on Jan 13, 2012 5:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Still not relevant.

If any of those three were originally involved in the deal and the Mariners protected all but Campos, maybe it would be relevant. It just isn’t.

To say that we still have “x, y, or z” is missing the point. Getting rid of Pineda and Campos for what doesn’t appear to be equal value is what our problem is. Our depth beyond is not relevant, no matter how heartening it is for us to make a sacrifice or two.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 13, 2012 5:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Sure...

but Montero better play a hell of a lot more than John Jaso. You don’t give up Pineda for a possible platoon player.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

@JamesDaBear

by jameslcrockett on Jan 13, 2012 7:15 PM PST up reply actions  

I would assume it wouldn't be a strict platoon.

Catchers usually take 30-40 games off a year, Jaso plays those games in a back-up role hitting mostly against righties, while Montero sees about a 50/50 split against righties and lefties. If Montero is going to be used as our starting catcher, then it’s Olivo that looks like the odd man out.

by nathaniel dawson on Jan 14, 2012 9:28 AM PST up reply actions  

Montero better be getting 500 ABs

I doubt the FO gave up Pineda for a platooner.

by HititHere on Jan 14, 2012 11:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Per Morosi

#Mariners hoping Noesi will be a starter for them, sources say.

by voltron27 on Jan 13, 2012 5:44 PM PST reply actions  

I understand that.

But if there’s a good hitting prospect at the top of the draft boards come June (and I have no idea if there is) I would just rather not spend another first round pick on a SP.

by Coach Owens on Jan 13, 2012 5:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Best Person Available. Period.

If it’s a pitcher, so be it. Just creates more depth.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 13, 2012 5:49 PM PST up reply actions  

I, for one, would sacrifice a tiny bit of pure upside

if they could still get a solid Ackley-type hitter with that pick.

by Coach Owens on Jan 13, 2012 5:55 PM PST up reply actions  

That's why I said if there's a good hitter.

If there’s not then by all means take a pitcher.

by Coach Owens on Jan 13, 2012 5:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, trying to figure out "tiny bits" of difference is near impossible.

If you have two relatively equal draft choices, it doesn’t actually matter which you pick, does it?

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 13, 2012 6:09 PM PST up reply actions  

I'd rather the guy who they think is the best player.

Way too much variance involved in prospects to ever draft for need.

by Vegasexpat on Jan 13, 2012 5:49 PM PST up reply actions  

And way too much variance in talent evaluation

To be reasonably sure that player A is better than player B in the long run.

by twelveoutof10 on Jan 13, 2012 6:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Remember,

the only available hitters that made remotely any sense at pick 2 were Rendon, Starling and Lindor. Considering the high cost and unknown health status of Rendon and the fact that 2011 was potentially a historically-good crop of pitchers, I don’t think Hultzen was terrible. Safe, perhaps, but not bad.

by mkries on Jan 13, 2012 5:54 PM PST up reply actions  

IMO Mariners rotation was better with Pineda than Yankees with Pineda.

Tough call now that we don’t have him. But my feeling is that their staff with our lineup would perform similarly or worse than we did last year.

by Agent_J on Jan 13, 2012 5:47 PM PST up reply actions  

True...

but now they have Kuroda too.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

@JamesDaBear

by jameslcrockett on Jan 13, 2012 6:15 PM PST up reply actions  

I'd take Oswalt on a 1 year 8 million deal.

And I wouldn’t think twice about it. We’d also be relatively close to where we were before.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 13, 2012 6:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Very much yes...

even just for flippable possibilities.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

@JamesDaBear

by jameslcrockett on Jan 13, 2012 6:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Noesi doesn't really appear to me to be worse than Nova on quick glance

At least based on the unreliable, not worth much minor league numbers. Strikes out more guys while walking less. They are also 14 days apart in age

Have no idea on scouting differences and he is a older

by Vegasexpat on Jan 13, 2012 5:45 PM PST reply actions  

I'm not a big fan of Nova.

Probably less so than Noesi, actually. Nova is vastly over hyped by the casual fans based on his win / loss record a year ago and sparkly ERA. He’s certainly not that good, at least at this point.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 13, 2012 5:51 PM PST up reply actions  

We spend 2 months waiting and talking about Prince Fielder,

then BAM Jesus Montero comes up out of nowhere. Baseball offseason.

by ATM's34 on Jan 13, 2012 5:47 PM PST reply actions  

The baseball offseason is like Christmas,

only if Christmas came on an unannounced day between November and February and people gave a good deal of terrible gifts.

by mkries on Jan 13, 2012 5:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Santa Boras

Except he charges you for your gifts and if you don’t want to pay he threatens to take your gifts to the mystery kid two towns over. You can keep the catalog though.

by Craptastic-J on Jan 13, 2012 5:53 PM PST up reply actions  

How could this have happened?? According to the always authorative NYC sports media ...

… the Mariners made a mockery of baseball by pulling out of the Montero for Cliff Lee. And Cashman and the Yankees would suitably punish the Mariners by never giving them the opportunity to trade with the Yankees.

Of course there were other voices that said that as soon as there was a deal between the teams that made sense the two teams would be back at the table together, as always.

"Most all good Americans hate the Yankees. It is a value we cherish and pass on to our children like decency and democracy and the importance of a good breakfast." - William B. Mead

by Steve Nelson on Jan 13, 2012 5:49 PM PST reply actions  

,

Buster Olney: One rival exec asks:“If Mariners liked Montero so much, how come they didn’t just trade Cliff Lee for him?… Pineda is worth more.”

by msb on Jan 13, 2012 5:51 PM PST reply actions  

I figure its because a firstbaseman is beter than a DH

Obviously he hasn’t hit as much as planned though

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot

by beastwarking on Jan 13, 2012 5:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Personally, I think that exec is wrong.

The situation with Cliff Lee is not the situation now. That was one of those interesting times where Jack Z was probably in the best situation possible. I think he made the right decision then.

Montero is a legit top prospect bat. Pineda is a legit top prospect pitcher. I don’t think they’re that far apart in perceived value. We look at the Latos trade and drool, but that trade doesn’t mean that Pineda was worth as much or more. But, what do I know.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 13, 2012 5:55 PM PST up reply actions  

If the Yankees liked Pineda so much,

why didn’t they try trade Montero (who they didn’t have a spot for) for Pineda when they needed pitching down the stretch?

by mkries on Jan 13, 2012 6:04 PM PST up reply actions  

First the Fister trade, now this.

Losing a bit of faith in Z’s trading ability.

by Vogelscheuche on Jan 13, 2012 5:52 PM PST reply actions  

Not quite that melodramatic.

I don’t love the trade at all though.

by Vogelscheuche on Jan 13, 2012 5:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Uh, no.

Now you’re the only being unreasonable.

by Matthew on Jan 13, 2012 5:55 PM PST up reply actions   3 recs

Let's not pretend there aren't still questions about Pineda's ability to have sustained success

And while I’m not thrilled about Montero’s minor league track record, I’m not completely discarding his performance in his September callup either.

I think you and Dave are way too bearish on Montero.

by Jeff Nye on Jan 13, 2012 5:57 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Completely unreasonable actually.

If I look at Montero and see a DH-only who posted an .843 OPS in AAA and I look at Pineda and see a guy who dominated the majors with only two pitches. Calling the swap of those two a “slight overpay” is ridiculously underselling it.

I think you’re letting your view that people are underrating Montero (fair or not) knee jerk you into making equally wild statements on the other side.

by Matthew on Jan 13, 2012 5:57 PM PST up reply actions   3 recs

You're assuming he'll be able to continue to dominate the majors with only two pitches

As well as do it in a significantly less pitcher-friendly park, and avoid injuries to boot.

by Jeff Nye on Jan 13, 2012 6:00 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I just think people are ignoring that Pineda still has significant questions long-term

And moving him to a harder division and a hitters’ park is going to affect him more than they think.

I liked him plenty while he was here, but it’s not impossible we sold as high as it’s possible to have sold on him.

by Jeff Nye on Jan 13, 2012 6:04 PM PST up reply actions  

How easy is it to get a reasonably decent DH in any market, any year.

Now, how hard is it to get a reasonably decent starting pitcher in any market, any year.
I guess we’ll see how this works out, but Montero betting hit the cover off the damn ball.

by John Woody on Jan 13, 2012 6:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Everett, Vidro, Wilkerson, Matt Lawton, Cust, Bradley

Yep, that’s how we have intended to use the DH slot

Determined, Jonesing Commentor

by Corco on Jan 13, 2012 6:11 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

I always thought Bradley played more games as a LF. I could be wrong.

Cust was a great example of how we should’ve gotten good DH value for nothing, but our coach didn’t want to play him in a way that reminded me of Moneyball.
And, all the rest are Bavasi, and he was retarded.

by John Woody on Jan 13, 2012 6:14 PM PST up reply actions  

And Carl Everett, Jose Vidro, etc

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot

by beastwarking on Jan 13, 2012 6:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Two problems with this stance:

1) Organizational context matters. The Mariners have deep pitching in their farm system.

2) It’s not a given that Montero is going to be a DH. It’s likely that he’ll be unable to stick at catcher, yes, but he’s athletic enough to play a perfectly reasonable first base.

by Jeff Nye on Jan 13, 2012 6:09 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Not to mention that even if Montero stays at catcher but sucks at it

He could still be a valuable player at the position based on his offense.

It’s not like we’ve been running out ace defenders at the position the last couple of seasons anyway.

by Jeff Nye on Jan 13, 2012 6:11 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm sure some of it is people who don't like Z

Will always take the most pessimistic view on everything he does.

by Vegasexpat on Jan 13, 2012 5:54 PM PST up reply actions  

I like Z

But I’m still scared and confused.

by Craptastic-J on Jan 13, 2012 5:55 PM PST up reply actions   3 recs

The fact that I have faith in Z and his crew are the only reason I'm not going insane right now

If Bavasi had just done this I’d be straight up pissed

Determined, Jonesing Commentor

by Corco on Jan 13, 2012 6:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, me too.

That and I’m waiting on it to become official so we actually know.

by Aussie Mariner on Jan 13, 2012 6:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Let's not forget a few things.

Bavasi traded Randy Winn for Foppert / JoeJessica. Yeah, in hindsight this sucks, but it wasn’t a bad deal at the time. Garcia for Reed / Morse / Olivo was a damned great deal at the time.

I don’t think I’d have been that pissed if Bavasi did this.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 13, 2012 6:11 PM PST up reply actions  

That's the two palatable trades he made

I wasn’t totally against Perez/Cabrera at the time either and I for some reason I liked Cirillo for Jarvis/Hansen/Faison/Wiki- but just about everything else..yuck

Determined, Jonesing Commentor

by Corco on Jan 13, 2012 6:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Not arguing.

Just saying that the entire body of his work wasn’t hideous. Just most of it. A trade should be judged on it’s own merits, not on the people doing it.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 13, 2012 6:19 PM PST up reply actions  

What real value did the M's get in return?

A LFer with huge holes in his swing, a pitcher who MIGHT be able to cut it as 5th starter, a middle reliever, and an underwhelming 3b prospect. Maybe it will turn out well eventually, but for now it doesn’t look good.

by Vogelscheuche on Jan 13, 2012 5:57 PM PST up reply actions  

For a number 3 pitcher and a David Pauley

I will take that 8 days a week

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot

by beastwarking on Jan 13, 2012 5:59 PM PST up reply actions  

I am extremely confused by this

To improve, they should try to become the musical southern cal of the west. - bRuins Nation poster on the Stanford band.

by bluemax on Jan 13, 2012 5:53 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

So the rotation is

Felix
Vargas
Iwakuma
Beavan
????

To improve, they should try to become the musical southern cal of the west. - bRuins Nation poster on the Stanford band.

by bluemax on Jan 13, 2012 5:58 PM PST reply actions  

Furbush that's who I was forgetting

To improve, they should try to become the musical southern cal of the west. - bRuins Nation poster on the Stanford band.

by bluemax on Jan 13, 2012 6:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Noesi!!!

If I was a reasonable person, I wouldn't be a mariner fan

by HuskyMariner on Jan 13, 2012 6:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Oh god

To improve, they should try to become the musical southern cal of the west. - bRuins Nation poster on the Stanford band.

by bluemax on Jan 13, 2012 6:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Life must be good if this is what fucks it up

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot

by beastwarking on Jan 13, 2012 6:20 PM PST up reply actions  

No, not really.

Figgins salary sucks, but if you think 2012 is a wasted year anyway, then Figgins isn’t hurting the team all that much.

by Matthew on Jan 13, 2012 6:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Obviously

but the list of things it could be doing is not that impactful. I’m not an idiot literally saying the Ms can flush 9M and not miss it. I’m pointing out that a bloated contract covering a period where the team is not expected to contend anyway is not as damaging as it would otherwise appear

by Matthew on Jan 13, 2012 6:23 PM PST up reply actions  

On that topic...

Of the top of your head, how much cash are prospects generally worth? Better prospects are worth more, obviously, but how much are we talking for a top close-to-the-majors prospect?

by mkries on Jan 13, 2012 6:27 PM PST up reply actions  

I get what you mean in that it's not like the loss of Figgin's contract would miraculous give the Ms the cap space to be competitive.

But not having that money now has an unknown impact on what the roster could look like in future years. It seems a weird piece of cognitive dissonance to talk a lot about value over contract and then dismiss lost money because we weren’t going to be relevant anyway. Team value is built progressively and to say the Figgins contract is less of an albatross because we were not short term competitive feels like sugar coating the shit stick.

by Drew_D on Jan 13, 2012 6:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Holy shit, missing nuance!

I didn’t dismiss lost money! Jesus H Jones. It’s a discounted negative impact, just like the marginal $ per win being on a curve getting higher the closer a team is to the 85-92 win mark.

by Matthew on Jan 13, 2012 6:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Okay, discount vs dismiss.

But isn’t the marginal $/win only applicable in the short term in the context of making a playoff run? Does that kind of scaling really apply if we’re not competitive anyway?

by Drew_D on Jan 13, 2012 6:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Well allright then.

I don’t know why I’m being stubborn about trying to lessen the Figgins sting anyway.

by Drew_D on Jan 13, 2012 6:57 PM PST up reply actions  

It may not be a popular opinion but..

I was never sold on Pineda, I think that he is going to Nomo out.

by plish on Jan 13, 2012 6:12 PM PST reply actions  

I would say the injury concerns are valid

But that kid was a special, young player on a cheap contract.

by Kingdomer on Jan 13, 2012 6:14 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

They're both righthanded.

As for the “less accomplished” part, when did we start turning into the kinds of posters that regularly got attacked by swarms of bees on USS Mariner?

Prospects may be prospects, but let’s not pretend that there’s no reason to like Montero.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 13, 2012 6:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Montero is good

But I think it’s fair to say that a player that has had meaningful success at the big league level is generally preferable to a player that has not shown any meaningful success at the big league level if overall talent is equal, and I think it pretty much is here.

Determined, Jonesing Commentor

by Corco on Jan 13, 2012 6:24 PM PST up reply actions  

But only one of them is expected to hit at Safeco

Is more my point. Pineda has already been to the bigs and had a season of relative success at a major league level. We quite literally do not know if Montero can hit major league pitching yet.

by Kingdomer on Jan 13, 2012 6:25 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

but we know the numbers for 2010 for both of them

And I mean, cmon. Only one played a full season at the major league level in that year.

by Kingdomer on Jan 13, 2012 6:28 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

I meant 2011, sorry

But the larger point still stands. Pineda has questions about his long-term sustainability too.

by Jeff Nye on Jan 13, 2012 6:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Pineda is a great young talent.

Montero is a great young talent.

We’re talking about a full year of ML experience. I’m not sure you can really value Pineda’s single season that highly.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 13, 2012 6:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Sounds reasonable but I've been drinking so I am a little more suggestable

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot

by beastwarking on Jan 13, 2012 6:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Over a full season, though

The last player to AVG better than .355 over a full rookie season (if I’m using Fangraph’s leaderboards correctly) was Bob Hazle in 1957.

by Lanky on Jan 13, 2012 6:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Ha, I get it.

stick in a link to Edgar’s B-R page and people would get it.

by mkries on Jan 13, 2012 6:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Maybe a .350-.360 wOBA.

So, maybe something like .280/.350/.480?

by VivaAyala on Jan 13, 2012 6:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Sorry, last time I bother you, I promise!

Thoughts?

Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc

Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter

"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."

"Every day is a great day for hockey."

by Brandon C. on Jan 13, 2012 6:15 PM PST reply actions  

I think you should get a shorter sig.

And I’m not enthusiastic about Montero, either.

by Lanky on Jan 13, 2012 6:17 PM PST up reply actions   3 recs

Why not?

Sorry about the sig

Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc

Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter

"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."

"Every day is a great day for hockey."

by Brandon C. on Jan 13, 2012 6:20 PM PST up reply actions  

No apology necessary.

He just doesn’t seem like the right fit due to position (DH or 1B someday) and handedness (RH). Montero may be great, but Pineda is a huge piece, so it seems like we could have swung him for a premier prospect at a different position. 3B or OF, particularly.

by Lanky on Jan 13, 2012 6:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Mixed feelings.

Excited and scared. More upset over losing Campos than Pineda. I like Montero, but I think we overpaid for him at this point. I hope I’m proven wrong.

by Cascadian Man on Jan 13, 2012 6:17 PM PST up reply actions  

I hope Montero does as well as the Yankees' fanbase thinks he'll do.

We love Pineda and are familiar with him and would have liked to see him traded for something quite a bit more, but if Montero can “catch” while hitting like Pujols or something I would start to like the deal.

by Slurvey on Jan 13, 2012 6:21 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm just gonna go for the safe analysis and say this can go really bad for one team, really well for one team or both!

My gut feeling is that I love Pineda a lot, but if Montero is now a Mariner I’m excited for dingers!

by Slurvey on Jan 13, 2012 6:15 PM PST reply actions  

Which will come in 3 years after Montero goes on a record 402 game hitting streak

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot

by beastwarking on Jan 13, 2012 6:21 PM PST up reply actions   4 recs

I hope so

I struggle to convince myself to pull off this type of a trade in a video game, so I’m even more anxious now that it’s actually happened.

by yakvalleycardinal on Jan 13, 2012 6:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, in the other thread people agreed with me that Pineda straight for Montero would be disastrous

And this is a slightly worse than Pineda/Montero straight up because Campos > Noesi apparently.

Seems pretty objective and conclusive that we lost this trade albeit maybe not by too much, but still.

by algorhythm on Jan 13, 2012 6:16 PM PST reply actions  

From what I hear this guy has legit power. Safeco never happened Sexson or Boone so if this guy is as strong as people say he is, I don't think we will have that much to worry about.

Plus, we play around half our games on the road so he still be productive from the right side

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot

by beastwarking on Jan 13, 2012 6:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Boone had a ton of opposite field power, yes

Sexson had some (he was still pretty awful). But then of course there was Adrian Beltre. I know everyone here loves him for his defense and all, and sure, point conceded, but Safeco Field absolutely neutered him as a hitter. Or is it a coincidence that he’s put up markedly better offensive numbers everywhere else he’s played?

by Alexandra_5236 on Jan 13, 2012 6:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Boston and Texas are great for righthanded hitters.

2004 was a perfect storm of a year for Beltre: everything else was pretty much lines up with his career averages in LA and in Seattle

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot

by beastwarking on Jan 13, 2012 6:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Sexson wasn't awful the whole time.

He was pretty dang good in ‘05 and above average in ’06 before he fell off the cliff. I understand it wasn’t what we paid for but Sexson still had a measure of decent success here. 73 HRs in ‘05/’06 for what it’s worth.

"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."

by kelly20210 on Jan 13, 2012 7:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Supposedly he has a lot of power to right.

And he grades at a 70 or so out of 80 for scouts in terms of power so if anyone is going to be able to handle Safeco as a righty it seems like it would be him

by Robby The Kid on Jan 13, 2012 6:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Montero's minor league numbers seem roughly comparable to Justin Morneau's minor league numbers

.311/.379/.528 — Morneau
.308/.366/.501 — Montero

Morneau’s numbers are better overall, but he wasn’t pushed quite as fast as Montero. I get that Montero’s AAA performance hasn’t been lights out, but Morneau didn’t see unqualified AAA success until he was 23. Getting him out from behind the dish could potentially help Montero’s hitting numbers some, too. (I think there’s been some studies which justify this.)

by ubelmann on Jan 13, 2012 6:23 PM PST reply actions  

2011 league averages

.260/.329/.400 — IL
.286/.359/.448 — PCL

The PCL league average OPS was about 10-11% higher than the IL league average OPS.

by ubelmann on Jan 13, 2012 6:27 PM PST up reply actions  

That makes things interesting

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot

by beastwarking on Jan 13, 2012 6:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks.

Makes me feel a teensy bit better about his numbers then.

by Coach Owens on Jan 13, 2012 6:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, his performance was 20% better than IL average this year.

And 32% the year before. I get the impression IL is less hitter friendly than PCL.

by VivaAyala on Jan 13, 2012 6:28 PM PST up reply actions  

IL is a big pitcher’s league.

"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth

366 Up, 366 Down

by Andrew GM on Jan 13, 2012 11:57 PM PST up reply actions  

You need to compare numbers and ages

And that is a huge difference. Makes Montero a much better prospect than Morneau.

Because if you don’t think about those things you would rate Bucky Jacobsen ahead of both of them.

"Most all good Americans hate the Yankees. It is a value we cherish and pass on to our children like decency and democracy and the importance of a good breakfast." - William B. Mead

by Steve Nelson on Jan 13, 2012 6:28 PM PST up reply actions  

I mentioned that Morneau wasn't pushed as fast as Montero

In fact, it was the first thing I mentioned. Yes, age matters, but more for discounting performance of prospects who are much older than their level or for prospects who are repeating a level. I’m not really convinced that a year or two in age makes a big difference.

by ubelmann on Jan 13, 2012 6:36 PM PST up reply actions  

It makes a huge difference

Review work done on aging curves. It’s also why there’s so much money to be made with falsified ages.

"Most all good Americans hate the Yankees. It is a value we cherish and pass on to our children like decency and democracy and the importance of a good breakfast." - William B. Mead

by Steve Nelson on Jan 13, 2012 8:50 PM PST up reply actions  

I have

There’s nothing to convince me that an 18-year-old’s numbers in AA are any more impressive than a 19-year-old’s numbers in AA. I’ve seen more people overreact to young stats (Delmon Young comes to mind) than I’ve seen people overrate older prospects’ stats.

by ubelmann on Jan 14, 2012 12:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Do they still run those Banner

Bank commercials with Bucky Jacobsen in them? Because those were hilariously pathetic.

by Liebkartoffel on Jan 13, 2012 7:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Not to be a jerk, but...

…it is true that Z’s day job is thinking about this team and its success moving forward. I am willing to believe that they considered all the negatives and positives that were brought up and will be brought up here, and then some.

I mean, we are all entitled to our opinion, but don’t you think that we should give Z just a little breathing room before we rip his spleen out for this trade?

by gogurt on Jan 13, 2012 6:29 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Who is doing that?

I see a vast majority of people either liking the trade or expressing displeasure about it in a rational manner or acknowledging an emotional reaction.

by Matthew on Jan 13, 2012 6:30 PM PST up reply actions  

I just feel like the majority of the people hate this trade

I’m just acknowledging an emotional reaction in the other direction. I’m not trying to instigate anything here, just trying to keep a cool head. No harm intended.

by gogurt on Jan 13, 2012 6:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Hate is too strong.

I think even the people who don’t like the trade are doing so for legit reasons. There are valid concerns about Montero and there are valid concerns about the value difference between Campos and Noesi.

Some of it is going to come down to a personal perception.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 13, 2012 6:41 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not sure anyone is disputing that.

I am reasonably sure that many people are stating their opinion that the concerns about Pineda are less than the concerns about Montero to them. And that trying to paint it as one side being oblivious to any downside at all is not a helpful dialogue.

by Matthew on Jan 13, 2012 6:51 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm actually quite optimistic about the minimal Safeco effect.

It’s really about the DH for me, and it seems like it’s the majority opinion – and I don’t mean here at LL. Do you have a reference for why you’re optimistic about his catching potential?

by Lanky on Jan 13, 2012 7:01 PM PST up reply actions  

I think it's unlikely he'll stick at catcher, but it's too early to say that definitely

And I think if he can’t play catcher, he’d be just fine at first base. He’s not a bad athlete; catching is hard, period. Lots of guys can’t do it.

by Jeff Nye on Jan 13, 2012 7:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Has he ever played 1B?

And if you’re moving Smoak to DH, then you’re effectively adding a DH anyway, right?

by Lanky on Jan 13, 2012 7:08 PM PST up reply actions  

I am not that concerned about Smoak at the moment

Having too much offense is a problem we can solve down the road.

by Jeff Nye on Jan 13, 2012 7:09 PM PST up reply actions  

But it necessarily decrease Montero's value to the team.

I don’t think it’s right to just dismiss it. As I mentioned elsewhere, couldn’t we move Pineda for another position player at a defensive position of need? Like 3B or OF?

by Lanky on Jan 13, 2012 7:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Not ENTIRELY worked.

I’m fine with a move that tries focusing on offense only and figuring the rest out later.

follow @casetines

by Kenneth Arthur on Jan 13, 2012 7:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Why do you hate to say something Z probably admits?

Z had his little defense-first experiment and it was an epic disaster. He focused on defense, and our offense became so bad that even Felix had a hard time getting Ws.

The Ms were too imbalanced. Great pitching + no offense = losing season. Jack is finally trying to add offense and it isnt going to cost anywhere near what fielder wants AND montero will likely be producing for many years

by briwas101 on Jan 13, 2012 8:40 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Day one, though?

Does it take an offseason or something to learn the ropes?

by Lanky on Jan 13, 2012 7:12 PM PST up reply actions  

I'd imagine it depends, but can probably be learned fairly quickly

With dedicated instruction.

Honestly, if I were the 2012 Mariners, I’d tell him he’s the starting catcher for all of 2012 unless he starts having knee problems or something. See if he can figure it out.

by Jeff Nye on Jan 13, 2012 7:16 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't see a problem letting Montero start at catcher for 2012.

The team has to see if he can do it. If he can’t then they can make roster adjustments next off season for his position switch.

by KC Mariner on Jan 13, 2012 7:18 PM PST up reply actions  

To be as good as

Jason Giambi?

"At times I think there are no words
But these to tell me what's true
There are no truths outside The Gates of Eden." B. Dylan

by xmet on Jan 13, 2012 7:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Whoa there

Matthew, I did not intend for my comment to be interpreted as applying to all the commenters. I’m sorry it came across that way, but I was just reacting to those who were reacting strongly against the trade. That is all.

by gogurt on Jan 13, 2012 6:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Not taking harm.

I’m saying I don’t really see a lot of “Fire Jack Z!!!!” or much remotely similar, which is what “rip his spleen out” implies to me.

by Matthew on Jan 13, 2012 6:47 PM PST up reply actions  

No, this is the internet.

Honestly though, I feel criticism is a necessary thing in move likes this: especially compared to recent transactions that this is most certainly going to draw comparison to.

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot

by beastwarking on Jan 13, 2012 6:31 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree.

Not saying criticism is bad… just raising the point that there is probably a good side to this that Z saw that the pessimists aren’t seeing.

by gogurt on Jan 13, 2012 6:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Because then Seattle could have one, maybe even TWO, legit hitters

At 1B and DH. Think about it! The Mariners being able to hit! Isn’t it wondrous?

by GasolineSnuggie on Jan 13, 2012 6:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Doesn't this trade kind of do that for the team?

Assuming Smoak and Montero live up to their potential.

by KC Mariner on Jan 13, 2012 6:34 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not, I was just thinking DH/1B.

If you think they will all live up to their potential Ackley/Smoak/Montero is pretty easy to get excited about.

by KC Mariner on Jan 13, 2012 6:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Which caused me to post something incoherent

Thanks dick.
Ok, I forgive you.

Don’t trade Smoak (vibe of the subthread, not direct reply to KC). Smoak is cheap, was rated one of the best 12-15 prospects in baseball in the last 18 months, has yet to play a full season of ML ball, and was pretty durned good last season before family death and injuries derailed him. I think most here know this though. Nothing against Carp, but sell high not low. Obvious statements complete.

by Craptastic-J on Jan 14, 2012 4:31 AM PST up reply actions  

THREE

THREE LEGIT HITTERS. Imagine!

by GasolineSnuggie on Jan 13, 2012 6:36 PM PST up reply actions  

But trading Smoak for nothing doesn't make sense.

Even if it’s a way to get somebody to take Figgins. If Smoak’s injured thumb was indeed a large factor in his collapse at the plate then you can be reasonably confident that he’ll hit much better this year.

by Coach Owens on Jan 13, 2012 6:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Looks like Moetero has significant power to right field

2011 homerun hit tracker. (click for fulll size graphic). If true, that means that he will less affected by Safeco as a RHB, like Bret Boone.

"Most all good Americans hate the Yankees. It is a value we cherish and pass on to our children like decency and democracy and the importance of a good breakfast." - William B. Mead

by Steve Nelson on Jan 13, 2012 6:42 PM PST reply actions  

Nuts!!! I had a SSA disclaimer in there, but I guess I inadvertently edited it out ...

"Most all good Americans hate the Yankees. It is a value we cherish and pass on to our children like decency and democracy and the importance of a good breakfast." - William B. Mead

by Steve Nelson on Jan 13, 2012 6:49 PM PST up reply actions  

It looks pretty too me.

I really like the lines leaving home plate. Nice artistic touch. Could use some more dots, i guess

by AckAttack on Jan 13, 2012 6:50 PM PST up reply actions  

As others note SSA applies, but a quiick Google of Jesus Montero and opposite field power ...

… indicates that power to right field has been noted.

"Most all good Americans hate the Yankees. It is a value we cherish and pass on to our children like decency and democracy and the importance of a good breakfast." - William B. Mead

by Steve Nelson on Jan 13, 2012 6:53 PM PST up reply actions  

FYI - NY Baseball Digest discussion of Montero - with discussion of opposite field power

Jesus Montero: An Overall Analysis

"Most all good Americans hate the Yankees. It is a value we cherish and pass on to our children like decency and democracy and the importance of a good breakfast." - William B. Mead

by Steve Nelson on Jan 13, 2012 6:57 PM PST up reply actions  

This appeases my irrational side for some reason.

How come you can do all this other great shit, but you can't lie the fuck down and sleep?

by JAH on Jan 13, 2012 8:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Felix

Someone noted above that Yankees asked for Felix for a prospect package … why wouldn’t the Mariners prefer that? He’s going to be super expensive over the next three years and how likely is it that he would resign with the Mariners?

That puzzles me, IF that thing about the Mariners shooting down a Felix trade above is accurate.

I like ex-Phillies prospects.

by Gradyforpresident on Jan 13, 2012 6:50 PM PST reply actions  

That's a very common refrain, about loving your current team/town.

I mean, it could happen, but by your definition there are a lot more bald-faced liars than not.

by Lanky on Jan 13, 2012 6:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Felix is lightyears ahead of Pineda in terms of development.

Also, Mariners believe they’ll be competing by the time Felix’s contract is up.

by AckAttack on Jan 13, 2012 6:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Felix really is a proven major league awesome talent

He’s the heart and soul of the franchise- him and Ichiro are the only players that put butts in seats right now

Felix is really expensive, but he’s totally worth the price at this point.

Determined, Jonesing Commentor

by Corco on Jan 13, 2012 6:52 PM PST up reply actions  

At this point, but won’t the Yankees just come in after 2014 with a contract with huge annual salary?

I like ex-Phillies prospects.

by Gradyforpresident on Jan 13, 2012 6:53 PM PST up reply actions  

No, they won't. Who says New York will even be an appealing place to play in 3 years.

They have no minor league system and Jeter/A-Rod/Tex/Swisher/Martin will all be basically done. New York has some rebuilding to do in the coming years. And honestly the Mariners will still probably be able to outbid the Yankees anyway.

"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."

by kelly20210 on Jan 13, 2012 7:09 PM PST up reply actions  

The Yankee's MO is pretty buying talent.

Who needs a farm when you spend more than 6 teams combined.
FWIW I disagree w/ this strategy.

by brian.only on Jan 13, 2012 7:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Except their long-term contracts were eating them up.

Trading Montero frees up their DH spot, which gives them a lot of flexability.

"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff

by EequalsMc2 on Jan 13, 2012 7:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Well buying veteran talent hasn't worked al that great for the Yankees the last

ten years. The core of their late 90s dynasty Jeter, Williams, Posada, Pettite, Rivera were all home grown pieces.

"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."

by kelly20210 on Jan 13, 2012 9:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Orlando Hernandez as well.

"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."

by kelly20210 on Jan 13, 2012 9:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Eh, they snatched him from Cuba, not quite the same

"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth

366 Up, 366 Down

by Andrew GM on Jan 14, 2012 12:00 AM PST up reply actions  

He wasn't a proved hired gun though. Like they trotted out with Burnett,

Pavano, Sabathia etc.

"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."

by kelly20210 on Jan 14, 2012 10:29 AM PST up reply actions  

And then you remind yourself that he's only just turning 26 this season

He may not be once-in-a-lifetime, but he’s probably once-in-a-generation.

by Alexandra_5236 on Jan 13, 2012 6:54 PM PST up reply actions  

I would be happy

We would be a better team if we had traded felix years ago. We will never be good with him

by briwas101 on Jan 13, 2012 9:01 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Felix is THE candidate to blow a 'wad' on.

IIRC you guys don’t have loads of money tied up w/ any long term deals w/ FA’s.
Aside from Ichiro he’s the face I think of when I think ‘Mariners’.

I also rue EVERY opening day as an A’s fan knowing we’ll have < 5 hits….

by brian.only on Jan 13, 2012 7:39 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Griffey, Johnson, Arod

They were the faces of the team and we didnt become a good team until ALL of them were gone.

Getting rid of those 3 = 116 wins

Keeping Felix + Ichiro = what weve been watching for years

by briwas101 on Jan 13, 2012 9:05 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

I am wondering the same thing

We are paying felix over $19m a season now, and pineda will be cheap a few seasons.

I dont want Fielder, but the Ms could’ve used Felix’s salary to get him if they wanted

by briwas101 on Jan 13, 2012 8:53 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Pineda for Montero is not what concerns me.

It’s Campo for Neosi that is.

"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff

by EequalsMc2 on Jan 13, 2012 6:54 PM PST reply actions  

Yep.

I think that’s a huge part of the general consensus around here too.

by Coach Owens on Jan 13, 2012 6:55 PM PST up reply actions  

I wasn't thrilled straight up Pineda for Montero. Then I heard more pieces and assumed it meant for us.

Then I heard Campos and I figured even better pieces back to us. That’s where most of my disappointment stems from, I suppose.

I fucking hate you Mariners

by kentroyals5 on Jan 13, 2012 6:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Well things aren't confirmed yet

Might be able to drive up the price?

"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff

by EequalsMc2 on Jan 13, 2012 6:58 PM PST up reply actions  

I actually don't mind that part

Campos is really far off and Neosi seems like he profiles well for Safeco- in that sort of swap I’m happy to defer to Z’s scouts

Determined, Jonesing Commentor

by Corco on Jan 13, 2012 6:56 PM PST up reply actions  

*Noesi

Determined, Jonesing Commentor

by Corco on Jan 13, 2012 6:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah

After doing some more research about Noesi, I’m starting to like what I’m reading (albeit based on second-hand information off the internet). Plus, Campos is far off enough to where he’s a very high variance prospect.

by JLC on Jan 13, 2012 7:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Noesi is a very good pitcher and will do well in Safeco

I like ex-Phillies prospects.

by Gradyforpresident on Jan 13, 2012 6:59 PM PST up reply actions  

I factor in that Jack Z obviously took a very long hard look at Montero in the Cliff Lee business,

and now he must not see Montero looking worse. And we have more starting pitching on the way.

ignacio

by ignacio on Jan 13, 2012 6:56 PM PST reply actions  

Is there a rule about ALL CAPS?

Cause where are they? Why aren’t you all Irate? I’m Irate. IRATE!. How can you trade a young arm with an unknown potential? He and Felix are a one two punch for the next five years. I know, I know, we don’t know the nature of the trade yet but dear god what could they be giving us? Do they have secret pitching help? We keep trading them all away.

by Great Sergios Ghost on Jan 13, 2012 7:01 PM PST reply actions  

It's not like we traded for Victor Zambrano.

Jesus Montero is a big ball of all-star potential.

follow @casetines

by Kenneth Arthur on Jan 13, 2012 7:08 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

IN MIDDLE SCHOOL, I TOOK A CLASS CALLED

“WEB DEVELOPMENT,” AND ONE OF THE UNITS WAS ON “NETIQUETTE” AND THE FIRST RULE OF NETIQUETTE WAS THAT TYPING IN ALL CAPS WHILE ON THE INTERNET IS VERY RUDE, PLUS I FEEL LIKE A CHILD WHEN I WRITE LIKE THIS AND I’M NOT VERY UPSET BECAUSE THIS IS A FAIRLY REASONABLE TRADE.

by Liebkartoffel on Jan 13, 2012 7:13 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

I all Capped on Yahoo.

My epic fail is that we’re discussing my delivery instead of what I want to discuss which is WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE?

by Great Sergios Ghost on Jan 13, 2012 7:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Reading this thread...

it appears as though we’ve traded Pineda for Nick Swisher’s jock strap and an old pair of David Wells’ gout infested game socks.

We now have Jesus freaking Montero and the beginnings of a solid offense. I don’t give a flying flip if he plays team masseuse during innings if he hits the way people think he will.

by PLU Tim on Jan 13, 2012 7:02 PM PST reply actions   6 recs

Yep.

I think Jeff will come up with some article later.

"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff

by EequalsMc2 on Jan 13, 2012 7:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Haha, I feel the same way too.

I was excited just for the fact that there was REAL Mariners news.

by Kyleo84 on Jan 13, 2012 7:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Gross exaggeration.

And I do mean “gross”.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 13, 2012 7:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Okay, I got through about 25% through the comments before I realized I would never have time to read them all, but it sounds like people dislike the trade. But I will be in the camp(os?) that likes it.

Michael Pineda, I love you. But a.) you’re a pitcher, and they don’t tend to last as long. b.) you dont have a change-up yet. c.) you’ve had SOME injury/durability concerns. d.) you’re a pitcher, and we need a hitter. e.) there is a greater than 0 chance that you pitched the best season of your career with Seattle.

Campos, I was really starting to like you this year but a.) you are so very far away from the majors. b.) this was the first year I had heard your name. c.) there’s still not a very good chance you become a #1, 2, or 3 starter in the majors and the chances you start in the majors for a significant time at all are still somewhat minor.

Montero, I still like you because a.) you could potentially still catch a few games. b.) you’re a hitter. c.) I’ve heard you hit to all fields! d.) you’re a hitter. e.) you’re young and instantly become the best hitting prospect we have by far. f.) you’re a gimp.

Montero, that last part was a Wayne’s World joke.

Noesi, I don’t know anything about you yet! Don’t really care! I’d still like this trade without you.

follow @casetines

by Kenneth Arthur on Jan 13, 2012 7:04 PM PST reply actions   5 recs

One point. I realize Campos is a long ways off and that is the way a lot of people are

ok with his inclusion. However even if he’s four to five years away from contributing that put’s him in the bigs at 23/24 years old. I think his floor is high leverage reliever if he doesn’t catch the injury bug.

"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."

by kelly20210 on Jan 13, 2012 7:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Four or five years has no floor

He could tear his rotator cuff tomorrow and be selling insurance in six months- the old TINSTAAPP adage applies here if nowhere else.

Yes, he could be the next Felix, but it’s far more likely you forget his name and never hear about him again

Determined, Jonesing Commentor

by Corco on Jan 13, 2012 7:15 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not saying that we should become an organization that puts no stock in really young prospects with high ceilings..

But let’s not overrate them either. Let’s put it in a really nice perspective… like how Fernando Martinez was just picked up on waivers. Like how Carlos Triunfel was a top 25 prospect once. I much prefer the 22 year old prospect to the 18, unless that 18 is a phenom at high-A or something.

Campos has so much time to go wrong. I’m not saying that I LIKE the inclusion, but it’s of little concern to me. He was a very good prospect and yet he was still our fourth best pitching prospect because we’re that deep right now.

follow @casetines

by Kenneth Arthur on Jan 13, 2012 7:17 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

But they're Yankees fans.

They get pissed about everything.

"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff

by EequalsMc2 on Jan 13, 2012 7:26 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

Keep in mind, they've probably only watched Pineda when he's pitched vs them.

And he didn’t pitch all that well. Living in NY, I can tell you they don’t care or know about any of our players other than Felix and Ichiro (when he was good).

by Rudy4three on Jan 13, 2012 7:28 PM PST up reply actions  

This trade sort of reminds me of (pardon the inclusion of hockey) the Erik Johnson/Chris Stewart trade of about a year ago.

Teams swapping young, cheap-ish players from areas of organizational strength to weakness. And both fanbases were ticked off at that trade too.

The statistics you don't compile never lie.
-Stephen Colbert

by kentcheesehead on Jan 13, 2012 7:24 PM PST reply actions  

Whoops.

"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff

by EequalsMc2 on Jan 13, 2012 7:30 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm trying to get excited for Montero since he does have the potential to be an elite bat in this league.

But the Campos part is holding me back. And not that Campos is such a great piece we can’t afford to lose, but I think it’s the part that makes me feel like we gave up too much. And when combined with the Fister trade which I hated, some aspects of the Smoak trade that embarrassed the organization, the Morrow trade which I strongly disliked, the Donkey signing I didn’t care much for…
But I need to just keep telling myself, Montero is awesome-Campos doesn’t matter, Montero is awesome- Campos doesn’t matter, and I’ll feel better about it. Unlike the Fister trade which is a permanent scar on my soul.

Doug Fister. :(

by Mothy on Jan 13, 2012 7:31 PM PST reply actions  

In retrospect

We traded:

Cliff Lee, Michael Pineda, Jose Campos, Mark Lowe

for

Montero, Smoak, Beaven, Leuke, Lawson, Noesi

"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff

by EequalsMc2 on Jan 13, 2012 7:36 PM PST up reply actions  

And still have Paxton, Hultzen, and Walker

We’ve had to deal with absolute dog shit on offense for so long, and I’m absolutely thrilled with this trade.

Carlos Silvelite

by OceanBird on Jan 13, 2012 7:38 PM PST up reply actions  

There's a reason it's easier to hate this trade at first

What we know is that we loved Pineda. Now, one that we loved has gone over to the Evil Empire and we must hate him. That’s hard on the emotions.

What we don’t know is much about Jesus Montero. We also don’t know anything about how all four players are ACTUALLY going to perform this coming year and into the future.

So because what we know is painful, it has a way of souring our initial reactions to the whole deal.

by Kyleo84 on Jan 13, 2012 7:33 PM PST reply actions  

Yankees fans appear to be feeling the same way about this trade as we are...

Which is a good sign. And as much as I hate the Yankees, I’ll be rooting for Pineda to do well there.

by baltergeist on Jan 14, 2012 1:25 AM PST reply actions  

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