The Center Field Mess
Unlike left field, the Mariners don't have an embarrassing franchise history in the middle. Ruppert Jones was all right. Dave Henderson was all right. Soon thereafter the keys were handed over to Ken Griffey Jr., and after he went away, in came Mike Cameron to play better than anybody expected for four years. For the Mariners, center field has more often been a strength than a weakness.
After Cameron left, though, the M's had some trouble filling the position. Randy Winn got the job done, but he was better suited for a corner. Jeremy Reed flamed out. Ichiro seemed better in a corner as well. For five years, the Mariners searched for something somewhat permanent.
Then came 2009. The J.J. Putz trade became the Franklin Gutierrez trade, and in Guti, it appeared that the Mariners had found their regular center fielder for the next several years. A 26-year-old Gutierrez posted a 105 OPS+ while playing impossible defense, easily standing as one of the team's brightest bright spots. And as a bonus, there was promising depth at the position in the minors as well. Michael Saunders had torn up triple-A. Greg Halman had scuffled a bit, but he had all the tools in the world. And Ezequiel Carrera posted a .441 OBP with West Tenn. After the 2009 season, the Mariners' organizational depth chart in center field looked particularly strong. The team signed Gutierrez to a four-year contract, and between him and the kids, no one was worried.
Fast-forward to the present day. What was as recently as a year and a half ago an apparent strength has turned into a visible weakness.
Carrera's gone. He was ushered out the door so a go-nowhere team could play Russell Branyan. Not that it matters much - he's a .281/.355/.347 hitter in triple-A, and his reasonable ceiling is lower than the desk upon which my laptop currently sits.
Saunders is a wreck. He's posted a .587 OPS through more than 600 Major League trips to the plate, and he hasn't done much in Tacoma, either. It's worth considering that he's had some off-field issues that may have affected his concentration, but we've seen the holes in his game, and they haven't improved. He's a 24-year-old who's teetering on the edge of being labeled a bust.
Halman isn't to be trusted. The high-K/low-BB approach was cute when he was younger, but he hasn't shown much progression, with a 178/41 K/BB in Tacoma and a 36/3 K/BB with Seattle. He has definite power, but it's incredibly difficult for a hitter to succeed with his approach in the bigs, and an improved approach isn't an easy thing to develop.
And, of course, there's Guti. Guti, who currently has a .457 OPS. Guti, who has a .620 OPS since the start of last season. Guti, who has a .539 OPS over the past calendar year. Michael Saunders has a .541 OPS over the past calendar year. Guti is the only player below him. News that he has a chronic gastrointestinal disorder explained his statistical decline, but if they have the disorder under control, it sure hasn't allowed him to get back to what he was, as his numbers have only gotten worse and worse and his power has almost completely disappeared.
And it's not like any prospects have emerged. The center field situation these days is ugly. Gutierrez, Saunders and Halman are all perfectly capable fielders, if not varying degrees of excellent fielders, but right now none of them are Major League hitters. Halman might be the closest, and we're talking about Greg Halman. Halman's approach is better than Carlos Peguero's, and it's better than Charlton Jimerson's and Reggie Abercrombie's, but it's not good, or anywhere close. There's a reason ZiPS projected Halman for a .265 OBP. He is the kind of hitter that gets exposed.
It's hard to overstate just how much of a setback this is for the organization. Obviously the biggest part is Gutierrez's collapse. He's the guy in the Majors in whom the team invested all the money, and now there's no telling whether he'll ever be anything again. But it certainly doesn't help that Saunders has taken a step back, and Halman hasn't taken much of a step forward. Center field is a premium, important position, and the Mariners don't have an answer. Now, or for next season, or for the season after that.
We've seen how quickly things can turn. Halman's only 23. Saunders is only 24. You never know when Gutierrez might reach a breakthrough. You never know when some other prospect might get on the map. This is not a hopeless situation that the organization faces.
But it is a desperate one, and thinking about it is a real downer. Out of this group, the Mariners were supposed to get at least one building block. At the moment, they have none, and that makes the playoffs all the more difficult to reach.
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I remember at the 2009 USSM/LL event at Safeco, someone asked Z about our excess of riches in the OF.
Jack insisted that those types of things had a habit of working themselves out, and that we shouldn’t worry ourselves about Michael Saunders not being able to eventually find a spot in a crowded outfield. Smart man.
by katal on Jul 18, 2011 4:31 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Jack is smart enough to know that what seems like an excess of riches probably isn't in the long run.
That logic helps to justify the Hultzen pick, though I prefer to think they really just thought of him that highly.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
by JY on Jul 18, 2011 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Sometimes, I think the Felix/Pineda/Paxton/Walker/Hultzen rotation is going to be amazing.
And then an alternate reality me steps out of the time machine and says “You thought the Madritsch/Nageotte/Blackley/Pineiro/Rett Johnson rotation was going to be amazing” and then alternate me punches alpha me in the face.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
by JY on Jul 18, 2011 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd trade Bedard and Vargas now while the pitching market is shallow,
figuring the team isn’t competing next year now anyway and man do we need to find some outfielders. Because that’s what this post is about, you know, the deficit of outfielders. We need outfielders.
by abender20 on Jul 18, 2011 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm really more in favor of moving Fister.
by Mariner Melee on Jul 18, 2011 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not sure
On the one hand, it’s probably be a good idea to keep at least one lefty around, but Vargas seems more prone to implosion than Fister and who knows how long Bedard stays healthy?
Yeah, he's much more like a Magikarp than a Goldeen
He’d definitely turn into a Gyrados.
by CMoney87 on Jul 18, 2011 8:55 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't think he is a sea pokemon at all.
He is probably a Dratini or something else that sucks in the beginning and then rocks at the end.
Your dork is showing.
Just thought you should know.
by megamanflx1 on Jul 19, 2011 5:07 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
One thing about keeping Vargas over Fister
Vargas is already into his 1st arbitration year, while Fister won’t reach his until 2013. Fister has 2 more cheap seasons of club control left than Vargas does.
Maybe that means we’d get a better return for him, but as cheap as he is, he’s also the kind of player you’d like to keep around.
by nathaniel dawson on Jul 18, 2011 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Rett Johnson!
Alpha You wouldn’t tolerate no face-punching. You Prime, though? That’s another story.
JY 616 doesn't understand why we don't just sign Nightcrawler.
How come you can do all this other great shit, but you can't lie the fuck down and sleep?
by JAH on Jul 18, 2011 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Nightcrawler was my favorite! (rec)
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
by JY on Jul 19, 2011 2:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Anybody want to play some cribbage?
Or Scrabble, or battleship, or cow tipping, or any fucking thing to get our minds off the Mariners’ offense?
I have Scrabble, Monopoly, Chess, Magic: The Gathering and playing cards at my house.
Pick your poison.
"Perhaps the worst comment I've ever seen on LL." - sanford_and_son.
by Ride the Apocalypse on Jul 18, 2011 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Posts like this should get forum rule exemptions
Because I can’t find words to express my sad reaction, but a colon left parentheses sure would do it.
As far as I know, emoticons aren't considered "chatspeak" here, just so you know.
If I’m wrong though, feel free to correct me.
Doug Fister is Dexter. R.I.P. Dave Niehaus
That memory is sorted immediately before the memory of Hargrove leaving town in his stupid red pickup truck.
And right after the memory of Reed checking his hair after diving for a ball
When Guti was MIA at the start of the season there were people right here suggesting Ichiro as a sub
With his history at the position as a justification. And folks responding that it never seemed the best fit for him, even before Time stepped in. (Of course there were people pointing to Figgins’ OF history too, for what that’s worth).
There was a time when Chris Snelling was our center fielder of the future :(
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
by JY on Jul 18, 2011 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't remember him as being thought of as a CF, always a corner.
Did they think he could play CF at some point?
Sobriety ain't too bad...
Austrailian baseball players are really good at breaking my heart :(
How come you can do all this other great shit, but you can't lie the fuck down and sleep?
The entire outfield is suspect
The entire outfield is suspect, Ichiro included. While Guti could potentially come back, Ichiro is in decline. It will stink to watch him slow down, but unfortunately a huge part of his game is speed, and without it he’s going to be an average player at best.
Guti’s stomach ailment is either a huge impact (and he shouldn’t be playing), or it’s not and it is being used as an excuse to explain his troubles.
We all know how much fun LF has been.
The worst part is that we have a minor league org filled with players that no one really cares to see move into the outfield. We are literally out of outfielders that can be productive in the majors in hitting & defense. Not stars, but better than replacement level.
That is astonishing.
All hail JZ
In Guti's defense, his BABIP is still an absolutely ridiculous 0.214(!)
His K% is actually down to 12.9% too, contradicting somewhat our feeling that he’s become a hacker. Really the only problematic peripheral this year is his 14.3% LD%.
Also: 2.0% HR/FB.
SSS of course, but that’s kind of what I’m getting at. Guti also straight killed some balls this weekend. He’s hitting only .650 on liners and only .061(!) on flyballs.
I'm as happy as anyone to see him hit a few deep fly balls, but you've got to admit that luck isn't the only explanation here.
Someone who can’t hit fly balls very far will put up a shitty BABIP on fly balls. Chone Figgins is hitting .087.
The only problematic peripheral?
How about his ISO? Or his HR/BIA?
This is not how that works.
Iso doesn’t care if he’s had 1 hit or 100, so if his ISO is low, it’s because he’s not hitting for any power. By your logic, LD% and BABIP are results based too, since he has to hit a line drive and/or get a base hit on a ball in play to count. In addition, his BABIP is partially low because he’s not hitting line drives, and because his ground balls are not being hit for any power.
...and now I'm here
If he's getting screwed on Line Drives and Fly balls, which are much more likely to go for extra bases, his ISO will be lower than if he was doing alright on flyballs and getting screwed on linedrives and groundballs.
If he has no power, he's not going to hit for line drives and those he does hit are going to be more likely to be outs.
He has no home runs this year and a 14% line drive percentage, so his ISO is presumably accurate. It’s not BABIP dependent unless he’s only screwed on a particular event, and even then that’s not necessarily true.
...and now I'm here
Or the 51% GB ratio. And the 4% uBB rate. If you want to name any aspect of his offensive game, it's going to be terrible.
He has nothing but problematic peripherals.
"Satisfaction is the enemy of success." SanFranPreps Twitter: @d_quazzo
by perfectstrat on Jul 18, 2011 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions
This is a lost season for Gutierrez
Drayer in Spring Training reported that Guti had lost “over fifteen pounds” and that was while they were still trying to diagnose him, so it probably ended up being closer to twenty. Given that he didn’t have a lot of body fat to begin with, that’s almost entirely muscle. That’s where the ISO went. And given the rigors of a major-league schedule, I doubt he’ll be able to gain it back (while playing) during the season — even if he could eat whatever he wants, which he probably can’t.
So I think the best case scenario for him might be a return to form next year, not this one. And that’s assuming he has no setbacks for further problems this year or during the offseason. Until then, he’s just a skeletal shell of his former self, and I’m not expecting much of anything even if BABIP starts going his way.
There must come a point, though, where one draws the line between illness and bad bat
He’s been a legitimately bad bat since the start of last season, and a legitimately awful one for the last twelve months.
I hope it’s simply a case of Guti regaining his strength, but I’m not holding my breath.
Right, there are three possible explanations
1) He’s still ill, and either they haven’t diagnosed him properly or they’re not able to fully treat his illness.
2) He’s not ill, he just sucks. He had a decent season, pitchers adjusted, he didn’t counter them.
3) He’s been phenomenally unlucky on balls in play, but his true talent for power (ISO, HR/BIA, whatever) just isn’t that great. He’ll improve as his luck evens out, but he’s not going to suddenly become the same hitter he was in 2009.
None of these are all that encouraging. If he’s ill and they can’t treat him, well, that’s not good. That he’s been bad for at least a year now makes the first two more likely, but they all may be working together to some degree. The weight loss from last year/early this year was so noticeable, so obvious, that I have to think if he was still down 15 lbs., they’d simply shut him down. Even if they weren’t absolutely convinced he had some sort of recurrence, wouldn’t you 15-day DL’d him and have him slowly add some muscle/weight?
Every comment from the team suggest that they think he’s completely healthy, albeit terrible at hitting. That’s almost as worrying. He’s either not the hitter they all thought he was (WE all thought he was), or he’s gotten much worse in a short period of time. He’s worked with three different hitting coaches since 2010 started, so it’s not like there’s an easy mechanical fix.
I'll go with number 1.
I’d have to think there’s a good chance that he hasn’t fully figured out how to keep this disorder in check. And he may never be able to. A professional athlete, by default, has to be in prime physical condition, especially for someone playing a position that requires such great athleticism as centerfield does.
I don’t know a lot about this disorder, and I didn’t stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but from what I’ve read, it’s something that each individual has to learn how to manage and try to find what combination of diet, lifestyle, and medication mediates their symptoms to the best extent. That sounds to me like a lot of trial and error and journal keeping and time trying to figure out what works best for him.
This has got to be a very trying and difficult time for him, both personally and professionally, and he’s not likely at peak physical form, so I’m not surprised that he hasn’t been at his best this year. Some people with this disorder seem to learn how to manage it well, while others have chronic problems with it. But “managing it well” may not be compatible with being able to stay in the kind of tip-top physical conditioning an athlete needs to be in to compete at highest professional level. Let’s hope that during the off-season, when he has time to rest up and focus on what he has to do to keep himself healthy and hale, that he can regain some of his strength and be able to come back next year in much better condition to play.
But there’s no guarantee that he’ll be able to do that. There’s no cure for this disorder, no surgery or medication or treatment that makes it go away, so it may be something that forever keeps him from performing at his best on the field.
by nathaniel dawson on Jul 18, 2011 11:52 PM PDT up reply actions
This sounds like he won't be able to overcome this. I thought that there was medication
that could control this. Now I’m just sad. :)
by TrustBaseball on Jul 18, 2011 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions
While it may very well be his illness
if you assume the entirety is his illness than you also have to assume that his illness is causing him to swing at more balls both out of the zone and inside the zone, and somehow also make more contact, indicating he has at least some idea of where his swing is going, and then not be able to hit the ball in the air. It’s possible, but if his stomach problems are affecting his ability to see the strike zone while simultaneously improving his contact percentage then the guy needs to go to a hospital, and should not be playing baseball. Somehow all of this does not affect his ability to run, since his defense has somehow improved.
The only thing that could account for both are poor decision making from pressing and more contact because he swings weaker. Even then, it’s still playing poorly, and a strong argument that he needs to not be playing.
...and now I'm here
The not playing thing may be in order right now
But it may also be problematic. Is he injured? Can he be placed on the DL? If he’s not actually injured, would the seeming lack of strength or conditioning be cause for a disabled list assignment? Is there a “physically not able to perform” list in MLB, and would that be appropriate for Guti?
Not sure what the Mariners options are in this situation, or how the Players’ Union would view such a move.
by nathaniel dawson on Jul 19, 2011 12:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Right, the illness explanation is basically just that he doesn't have the same power
It sort of reminds me of Conor Jackson’s experience w/Valley Fever. He had ISOs in the .150-.180 range – a bit higher than Franklin, but probably about the same considering park/league. Then he got ill, completely sucked, has bounced back a bit this year, but his power’s essentially gone.
I recently saw the Mariner commercial with Guti again.
It really struck me how thin he was when they filmed it. I hadn’t noticed when the commercials first came out.
So where is all this great scouting and rebuilt farm system I keep reading about?
Seems like every other week this team develops another hole. The pitching seems to be there, and could be decent and cheap for a while, but in two years the lineup could be Ackley and a bunch of guys named “bleh”. Assuming no free agent surprises or Cliff Lee level trade miracles, of course.
Still. The farm was supposed to be better after Bavasi’s leftovers were cleared out. What happened?
by Chris_FB on Jul 18, 2011 5:19 PM PDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Farm systems are not expected to provide Major League returns in two seasons.
Farm systems are four, five, ten-year development tracks.
by Matthew on Jul 18, 2011 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions 11 recs
Ten years?
So you pick a high school kid and he isn’t expected in the majors until he’s 28?
Most stars are in the majors by 23/24 at the latest, so unless we’re drafting 13 year-olds 10 years is a mite long. Also way past the average tenure of a GM.
by Dave Paisley on Jul 18, 2011 9:47 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Most international players are signed at 16
by nathaniel dawson on Jul 19, 2011 12:03 AM PDT up reply actions
All international players are signed at 16.
by Kinyo on Jul 19, 2011 1:12 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
What I meant by ten years is that it can often take something like 10 years
for an organization to see a full turnover from a previous regime’s handling of its farm system. Getting their scouts, philosophy, their coaches, their draft picks and draft strategies in place all take time (doesn’t happen on day one) and someone drafted or signed in year three (which this is for Z) of their tenure should count just as much as in year one. And if you figure a HS or int’l guy in year three, how long until he’s ready?
That’s what I meant, it’s at an organizational level. I’m not a drooling moron who has never looked at a farm system before.
by Matthew on Jul 18, 2011 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
What happened?
Dustin Ackley is now the starting second baseman. Some dreck was traded for Cliff Lee and now we have a starting first baseman and a swing starter / fifth starter type dude in Beavan plus whatever Lueke turns out to be. Kyle Seager is a reasonably legitimate third base candidate. Paxton and Walker are one of the more exciting pitching duos in the minors. Hultzen is coming. Vinnie Catricala is smashing baseballs everywhere. Forrest Snow may be something. Nick Franklin is intriguing. Matthew talked about Carraway and Gilheeney today. That’s what happened.
by abender20 on Jul 18, 2011 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions 15 recs
You should probably give Zduriencik credit for Pineda as well
Obviously, he didn’t sign him, but who’s the one guy Z didn’t trade out of the mess of low minors pitching he inherited? Yep.
by Graham MacAree on Jul 18, 2011 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions 9 recs
Gutierrez's "sickness" could not have been foreseen.
CF (and therefore LF…) would not look like such a giant hole had Guti stayed healthy. So are you really going to blame this “developed hole” on Jack? Jack has shored up our entire pitching staff, 2B, and 1B in his short stint here and has pieces in place to fix 3B, SS and LF.
by Mariner Melee on Jul 18, 2011 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions
What are the pieces for LF?
Or 3B for that matter? All I’m coming up with is Chavez and Seager, and Pimentel, Morla, M./E. Peguero, P. Chavez. Never mind, I answered my own question.
By my count we need three new starting outfielders
Next year is probably Ichiro’s last, and he is terrible. Left and centerfield are absolute train wrecks. So much for competing in 2012, there are just too many holes in the lineup.
It's a concerning situation that's going to take some serious magic from the front office to correct.
The team basically needs to pull one or two more Guti trades between now and the start of next season. Who wants Jamey Wright?!
Or they need Ichiro and Guti to bounce back
which isn’t impossible, though probably unlikely at this point
Please bounce back.
Ichiro is Ichiro and could just be awesome all of a sudden, probably not likely thought.
If Guti really has his IBS under control, I could see him working over the winter to get some weight on. His approach wasn’t broken before his sickness, why would it be permanently broken now?
Why is it not likely for Ichiro?
I don’t see how an .327 or so career average right fielder who has accumulated 200++ hits in every season of his career can just stop hitting all of a sudden. Although, all the years that he has played in MLB/Japan are probably catching up to him and he is getting close to 40. Well, I guess it’s time to turn him into a pitcher.
You could say the same thing about Chone Figgins
Athletic, speedy line drive hitters with a few .290-.300 batting average seasons don’t tend to completely lose their ability to hit at age 33, but here we are. I’m not completely convinced that Ichiro has actually lost bat speed, foot speed or ability in general, but I’m a lot closer to worrying about it now than I was last season.
I would be one thing if he still looked ok, but Ichiro has been noticeably worse on defense and is struggling to hit the ball out of the infield
Given his age this is probably the beginning of the end. He looks like last year’s FIggins without the walks.
We'll be okay once they call up Mike Wilson.
...and now I'm here
Me too.
This is where we are… a platoon of Carp/Wilson in LF seems like an intriguing potential improvement and throwing a raw 23yo second-baseman at the 3B morass is exciting, and preferable to the alternatives. Wheeeeeee!
It's not as hopeless/dire sounding as that.
I welcome someone to correct me on this, but based on their AAA numbers it’s not unthinkable that one of them could be a 1,5 to 2 win player for no money. That’s serious value, and in many ways it’s what we thought Saunders would be, except with more upside down the road. It’s weird how we look at these players like it makes us hopeless, but really, I think they’re great additions to the system. The problem is these types of players (maybe Carp excluded?) rarely seem to get a chance when there’s a younger kid with possibly more upside.
The idea that our team sucks means we should be finally giving these potentially valuable players a chance, and there’s potential that they could really help the team. The only disappointing part is that they rarely give players like this a chance unless they’re out of it, and by then they don’t have much value even when they do have value.
Sadface.
...and now I'm here
by CapSea on Jul 18, 2011 11:40 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I would absolutely love it if one of them was a 2 win player.
What sort of odds would you put on that? That Mike Wilson or Mike Carp can be a league-average LF/DH?
Another way of looking at it is: Bryan LaHair is blowing both of them out of the water right now in AAA. What odds would you give LaHair of becoming a league-average LF for no money? Should the M’s acquire LaHair?
I totally agree with your broader argument – that the rest of the season should be about letting Carp and/or Wilson get plenty of PAs.
It depends on how much stock you put in UZR, and what their defense looks like.
I have my doubts about UZR so I would like to see them field before I’d give them odds. I don’t think it’s that ridiculous as long as you don’t expect them to keep it up or improve. It’s not unreasonable to expect a 2 win peak out of either player, and Wilson should be in or near his peak year, with Carp close. But that’s only assuming their defense isn’t hilarious.
Odds are not big, but I don’t think they’re minuscule, and when you have two players with only an expectation that one will reach close to 2 wins, that improves your chances of hitting it.
...and now I'm here
I've known for a while that this write-up was coming, but I sure wasn't looking forward to it.
I can’t believe he’s broke already, although all signs indicate that he is. My last hope is that like Carlos Guillen, Guti can again become a good MLB player even if his defense is never quite the same. If memory serves (and it rarely does) Guillen had a few of good years with Detroit after his bout with TB.
Wasn't Guillen a multiple time All-Star with the Tigers?
by Fearless Frog on Jul 18, 2011 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions
According to BP, Guillen was decent for several years with the Tigers.
If TB and IBS are similar in that they can both be treated or brought under control, maybe Guti’s power can be returned to him. If he could do what Carlos did, that would be more than welcome for the next few years.
by TrustBaseball on Jul 18, 2011 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Exactly
TB might be a scarier disease to have yourself, but IBS would interfere much more with preparation for the game (and general quality of life). I have IBS, and it’s the randomness that gets you most.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Jul 19, 2011 5:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Michael Saunders personal problems
Can anyone provide a link to (or short summary of) what the deal is with Mr. Saunders? Or has it been successfully kept under wraps?
Frankly, I’m not certain why I am interested, in that with any normal total stranger, I would think it rude to ask about personal matters. But I also think that with any normal total stranger, I would be very much not interested in their IBS, and yet the discussion above on muscle-wasting was interesting to me.
In an potentially meta-level interest, if the press is intentionally not talking about it due to the personal nature of the story, it means that they are holding back a story of interest due to the sensitivity of the story, and that rarely happens anymore. Or it could just mean that I can’t use Google News properly.
by Caw of the Seahawk on Jul 19, 2011 6:29 AM PDT reply actions
Well that is a shame.
Thanks for finding this for me. It is just what I was looking for.
by Caw of the Seahawk on Jul 19, 2011 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions

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