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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Spring Cleaning Lookout Landing's Posting Guidelines

As Lookout Landing has grown, so have our standards and guidelines and they have spawned separate posts as issues have flared up. Those posts get added to our membership agreement and each time it gets harder to read through and follow. We have lacked a thorough pruning and so here it is.

There is probably nothing new in here to anyone who has posted here. This is an attempt to get everything into one place and explained so that it is more streamlined in alerting new people what the community expects. The aim here is not only to itemize all the rules governing behavior here but also to flesh out the reasons behind them. In doing so, I hope people will see that our standards come not from a zealous glee of exercising power or putting down others, but rather are an extension of the same goal that LL has with its content.

Star-divide

RULES REGARDING POSTING STYLE

Rule 1: Use the subject line

LL requires the use of the subject line on every comment no matter how trivial. For images, you will often see people throw a single character --usually a punctuation mark-- into the subject line. That's fine. On textual comments, we prefer that the subject be the beginning of your thought, but the important part is that some sort of content is entered in the subject line. There are no exceptions.

The reasons are explained in depth in a full post here, but the quick rundown is that subject lines allow other users to collapse comments and that it helps moderators by giving us a direct link to comments in our moderating panel. We also find the formatting more appealing. To visitors from other SBN blogs that do not require the use of the subject line, we understand they can be visually distracting to you. That's not an excuse to violate the rule. Our house, our rules.

Rule 2: No chatspeak

This includes "lol", "+1", "this", "rec'd", "WTF" and anything similar.

The writer who neglects spelling and punctuation is quite arrogantly dumping a lot of avoidable work onto the reader, who deserves to be treated with more respect. - Lynne Truss

The fact that chatspeak, poor grammar, poor spelling and poor punctuation are generally acceptable on the Internet is a problem with the Internet, and one that LL chooses not to encourage. You should be proud that we do our best to make our comments readable to you, not upset that we expect you to do the same.

Rule 3: Watch your image/GIF sizes and frequency

Hotlinking images is acceptable, but we ask that you put effort into restraining their size and not do it too constantly. Large pictures hog bandwidth and screen space, potentially killing the conversation flow. Reasonable sizes vary depending on the details of the image but consider that if the image needs more than 200 pixels of height that you can always post a shrunk down version with a link to the full size one. You might be amazed how small a picture can be and still get the point across. An example of how to shrink down a picture is shown here. Unsure of how big the image is that you're about to post? There's a preview button right next to the post button. There's no excuse for not using it.

And on the subject of taking up screen space, we both disapprove of signatures and believe that you should keep in mind that others are unable to hide any signature you attach to comments except through hacks. Going back to the courtesy point, we highly suggest/require that you do away with a signature or if you absolutely must have one, that you limit it to one line.

Rule 4: Use the reply button

It is essential for determining who is responding to whom. Note also, that if you are unsure where in a nested thread the comments are replying, the up button will direct you to the comment being replied to. Without using the reply button there is no flow to the comments and the community suffers.

Rule 5: Use the link button

For short and well-formatted URLs, this is not a problem. However, some URLs (notably any link from Twitter) are amazingly long and/or contain characters that can break SBN's HTML formatting. Those are ugly and given that it takes five seconds to avoid, you deserve the mocking you get for failing to prevent it. Use a shortener or the link button and remember the preview button is there to double check that your links work.

RULES REGARDING CONTENT

Rule 6: No politics or religion

In general, the rule is intended to prevent any discussion from spiraling into a partisan bicker. There are very few exceptions granted. Issues from the distant past are sometimes acceptable for joke fodder. Please note carefully that final judgment on this matter is left up to, and only to, the moderators who will exercise their authority completely subjectively. Frankly, it's just best not to play with fire in the first place.

Rule 7: No trolling, here or elsewhere

Making statements that you know will rile people up solely for that purpose is trolling. Nobody is allowed to do it here and if we catch you doing it elsewhere you will be banned from here. There is zero tolerance of this. What you do on other blogs reflects on the community here and more plainly, it's immature and has no place anywhere.

Rule 8: No unwarranted hostility

You can attack arguments without attacking the person. If someone makes a point that you disagree with, the best first step is to question it (politely) before attacking it. Make sure you understand what the other person is advocating. A lot of nuance is lost in a text-only medium.

Similarly, advancers of an argument must be expected to provide a basis for their belief. Everyone is entitled to their own (informed) opinion, but not to their own facts and you better expect to be challenged to defend your statements. Accept being wrong at times and learn from it. The goal here is discourse; there's no prize for being the first person to insult someone else or for having the best sound bite.

Rule 9: This is a public place

Remember that even when you are replying to somebody in a subthread, that you are not speaking solely to that person. This is an entirely public forum. Try to keep discussions open to others. A complete rundown on LiveJournaling is and what it looks like is found here.

Rule 10: Cite your sources

Posting about breaking news? Link to your source and it would be best to wait until you have two independent sources to avoid jumping the gun. Note please that two reporters relying on the same source is not two sources. Furthermore, consider the source(s); are they reputable? Do not give traction to those without credibility. The internet deals in mouse clicks and people that make stuff up shouldn't be rewarded.

Rule 11: Stay on topic

Some diverging is unavoidable and fine. Just keep your wits about you. If you find yourself only commenting about the divergence and not about the original topic that is a sign that you should go create a separate place to discuss that idea. Have respect for the original poster and his or her topic. There's always an ongoing off topic thread for your convenience.

Rule 12: Don't comment on everything

Overexposing yourself is a great way to make other people tired of you. Pick your spots and you'll be welcomed more.

Rule 13: On jokes

People on LL are not easily offended. Maybe it is a Seattle thing; maybe it is simply this community. That said, you should not go out of your way to try and to offend. If you have some hilarious joke that may be seen as offensive to some but is otherwise hilarious, go for it. But also be sure that your joke will be seen as a joke. If you are brand new, it's probably a good idea to keep the joke on the shelf until we know you're joking. We are not politically correct and we are not going to be speech nannies, but we will not tolerate actual cases of bigotry. Again, where that line resides is ultimately going to be the moderators' decision.

Similarly, we loathe played out jokes, no matter how funny they were originally. Jesus Montero or Justin Smoak puns? Horribly unfunny. Fat jokes belong in a middle school. "That's what she said" is deader than Michael Jackson's physical body. Internet memes are void of creativity and things like poop jokes are going to get a negative reception. A good rule of thumb is that if it's an easy joke, it won't be highly regarded.

CONCLUSION

This may seem like a lot of rules, but if you can handle being a decent person in a social environment outside the internet then none of the above should impact you. We are trying to mimic the sort of behavior you'd find at a gathering of friends. We have collectively agreed that we prefer things this way. If that rubs you the wrong way, both Jeff and I are accessible via e-mail or you can always politely ask in the threads. That is the best way to get your concerns addressed.

Comment 72 comments  |  21 recs  | 

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The only other things I would add to this excellent post

Is a request. If you don’t like something you read, please do not post a comment that merely says “this sucks” or something like that. Just stop reading and move to another thread. Nobody’s forcing you to read anything on this site, and with the volume of stuff that gets posted on here by the authors and commenters, you’re bound to find something that you don’t like as much as some other thing. That’s fine. Just ignore it.

Also, while it’s impossible to say what precisely it is, there is most definitely a statute of limitations on commenting argumentatively on a subthread. If you’re reading through a thread from a couple days ago and some subthread in it gets your dander up, but there hasn’t been a comment in that particular thread in about 12 hours, please just leave it be and get on with your life. As Matthew says above, pick your spots.

by pdb on Jun 4, 2011 11:15 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

*things...are a couple requests

stupid editing comment and not title

by pdb on Jun 4, 2011 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nobody's forcing people to read anything

but valid criticisms shouldn’t be swallowed just for sake of possibly not offending someone. “This sucks” isn’t a valid criticism, no, but I don’t like saying “just ignore it” either. There’s a middle ground and that’s what I’m going for in Rule 8.

by Matthew on Jun 4, 2011 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm all for tact but I think ignoring offensively bad comments is wrong

If you constantly let bad comments slide the site will become an readable string of garbage

Even the most brilliant tactful constructive criticism is still likely to see seen unpleasant by someone… so I guess pick your spots hope for the best.

by Poochie on Jun 4, 2011 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

The goal is to explain to them why it sucks when you do

But yeah we definitely should not just “let stuff go” if it’s awful. That’s how we build a group of shitty commenters that is completely out of control because they don’t change and eventually become entrenched as they just keep posting in a way that was a problem originally, but nobody said anything out of politeness or something.

by OlSalty on Jun 4, 2011 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

I've definitely been guilty of posting stuff like "this post sucks" or being too hostile in a misguided effort to reinforce the posting standards.

And I’ve really tried to curb that behavior but oh my god it’s hard when the puns and Larry Bernandez jokes just never end. But, that’s what the flag button is for, right?

Anyways, it’s way too easy to belittle and flip out about stuff you don’t like on the internet and it’s something that a lot of people who’ve been using message boards, etc for years and years have just gotten used to doing. I appreciate that LL strives to be different and be a less hostile place than most places on the internet. Also, the content here rules, duh.

But, we all know how hard it is to overcome this conditioned behavior and we see it whenever we get a rush of new posters. Reminder postings about the rules like this are really helpful.

by sanford_and_son on Jun 4, 2011 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I know I'm not the most regular commenter,

but I’d just like to make a note that these rules apply to everyone. That includes no chatspeak.

Doug Fister is Dexter. R.I.P. Dave Niehaus

by SeaKoala on Jun 4, 2011 11:31 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Rule 12 is especially important

I try and limit myself to 10 or fewer comments per game thread, for example, and only a couple comments per regular article. This way the posts I do make tend to be more constructive or interesting than just saying “GUTI SEX!”

Do you want to hear about my fantasy team?

by Cantu Easley Winn on Jun 4, 2011 11:39 AM PDT reply actions  

People want to enjoy the game together. Most of the game threads are random banter related to the game, but as we know, its not supposed to be a play-by-play.

However, I love it when people get jacked up together and 20 new comments post at once. It gets me excited for what just happened. I don’t see a problem with 20 people all saying that they want to have a personal, intimate relationship with Franklin Gutierrez.

follow @casetines

by Kenneth Arthur on Jun 4, 2011 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Personally I think it makes gamethreads harder to keep up with

Some actual good comments could get lost in the cloud of generic sameness that appears when something happens

by Dewey N on Jun 4, 2011 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

As a person who can't watch the M's on TV very often, and that the gamethread is usually 15 seconds ahead of Gameday..

The “Comment Bombs” get me excited like “WOAH WOAH WOAH, what just happened?!”

But that could just be us online-only guys.

follow @casetines

by Kenneth Arthur on Jun 4, 2011 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

I'd rather see people wait and comment on others

Play-by-play is inevitable, and people should leave comments when something cool happens. But I would suggest giving it time and respond to others who have already said something about it.

Like if someone says “ICHI-DONG,” hit the reply button and say, “UNBELIEVEABLE,” instead of posting a new comment, and go from there. I feel that would make it a little cleaner.

Personally, I try not to make a comment that either someone else has already made or I know someone will make.

by GrodyToadie on Jun 4, 2011 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

A further thought

I like these rules. I’d like to mention that I’ve read two kinds of jokes (especially during the preseason for some reason) that are allowed, but that make me nervous about recommending this site to friends:
1. Homo- humor. “Gay” isn’t an insult (or a compliment). It strikes me as very un-Seattle to use it that way.
2. Expressions of desire to kill a player. I know we care, but… Yuck.

Maybe I’m overly touchy. If so, I apologize.

by bookbook on Jun 4, 2011 11:44 AM PDT reply actions   2 recs

It's a worthwhile point of clarification

Personally I disagree with you and think people should stop going out of their way to be offended. Gays are fair game to political incorrectness as much as anyone else. However, it’s still a good question: At what point does it become political in nature?

by Sarchasm on Jun 4, 2011 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

For me, it's not the offensiveness that gets me

It’s just the unoriginality of it. Stuff like “Chone FAGgins” or “Player X is GAY” isn’t going to make me call the PC police, but it makes me view you as a 12-year-old boy. And when you are viewed as a of 12-year-old boy, it really isn’t helping you or this community.

by GrodyToadie on Jun 4, 2011 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions   8 recs

But those jokes are terrible.

I am pretty blue where humor is concerned, but ‘Faggins’ isn’t creative or funny or defensible in any way. It’s just needlessly homophobic. If you’re going to be offensive you need to be funny. Otherwise it’s just small-minded, lowest common denominator an bad.

by Aaron Campeau on Jun 4, 2011 10:44 PM PDT up reply actions   6 recs

I'll let others handle #1.

As for #2, a lot of this talk are call backs from stuff that comes out of Game Threads, which tend to be emotionally… volatile. There is an understanding that Game Thread Emotion is not something to take seriously, as it is a place where LL can have an emotional outlet. Now, if a certain New York Mets’ center fielder slides spikes up into our young phenom pitcher, his bitch ass is taking his life into his own hands.

Who's gonna save the world? Who's gonna save the day? From Ahab crabs who steal and eerie eels with evil rays?

by JAH on Jun 4, 2011 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

I remember that game and my feelings so vividly...

And I remember it being pretty much what everyone on LL posted in the comments. And the love I felt, then when I never commented, as opposed to now when I… well… never comment…

by Belom3 on Jun 7, 2011 12:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not overly touchy.

I feel the same way and while I am totally fine with swearing and expressing ourselves, using Homophobic slurs here are really unacceptable. I try to flag it every time I see it. Stop the hate, it’s really not funny.

by ambrosia2112 on Jun 4, 2011 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed, I just started reading game threads again and it seems like the word "faggot" has been thrown out way too much.

I flag it when I see it, and the mods seems to do a good job of removing it, but come on people. It’s not an ok word to use in the same way you wouldn’t throw around certain other words.

by Patrick Stites on Jun 4, 2011 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe this is assumed by reading both Rule #2 and Rule #12

But could there be a reminder about proper use of the rec button as a tool to agree with a comment without wasting the space to say “I agree” or “this”?

by MT Olson on Jun 4, 2011 11:46 AM PDT reply actions   5 recs

I haven't commented in a game thread for a while,

and I don’t think I will as long as the M’s keep performing well, but one of the reasons I dropped out and decided to just read front-page posts is because the enforcement of these rules seems to be arbitrary depending upon the mood of the moderators and more established regulars.
Now, I think this is fair enough. LL is a well established community and the regulars and moderators have every right to enforce the rules when and how they see fit…but I’ve been reading and commenting here for at least a year (relatively, not a very long time) and I still get the impression that the rules are sometimes enforced simply in order to haze or shut down new/less-likeable members.
Again, fair enough. If you don’t like it, leave.
And so I have, for the most part. I still love LL’s front page, and I link to and share most every post that Jeff or Matthew put up, but I just can’t hack the game threads as often as I used to.
Honestly, I think I’m just to old and slow and corny to fit in well here, and I know that most of my problems with LL comment threads are on my end, but I thought this would be a good place to give this thought some air. Thanks for your time.

Eyes?

by Jesus Jones on Jun 4, 2011 12:20 PM PDT reply actions  

If you have specific examples of what you're talking about (i.e., favoritism or selective enforcement of the rules), you should link to some examples, explain the pattern you're seeing, and email it to Jeff and Matthew.

If you come across new examples of it in a game thread, flag it and write your rationale. Jeff and Matthew will listen if you make a reasonable case and it will improve LL, which will benefit everyone who reads it.

by Decatur on Jun 4, 2011 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'll keep this suggestion in mind the next time I participate in a game thread.

I just don’t want to seem too bitchy. (Too late?) Other comments here have articulated well some of the specific problems that new members can experience (piling on, not getting the benefit of a doubt on a bad pun or a too-large image) and I agree with you that this kind of a dialog is helpful.
I do want to clarify, though, that I think the LL community is, overall, welcoming and fun. Like with any other group of people there can be personality conflicts over time. I suppose if I were to walk my comment back, I would refer back to the word “seems.” I don’t think that Jeff or Matthew or anyone else sets out at the beginning of a game thread intending to be rude to noobs. That would be ridiculous and would hurt the site. However, for a new kid, getting piled on or griped out for an honest mistake can sure make it seem that way.

Eyes?

by Jesus Jones on Jun 5, 2011 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Piling on.

I know it has been brought up before but I’ll bring it up again.
When people fail to abide by one the rules they are often by chastened by seemingly everyone else. I know there is a spirit of community policing here and it’s usually for the better but sometimes it gets taken a little too far.
My favorite example is image height.
The image height guidelines arise from the premium on vertical space as it relates to the readability of threads. Kind of ironic when a 500 pixel picture generates 2000+ pixels worth of comments that boil down to either “too big!” or “smaller!”.

If someone else has already mentioned it, you probably don’t have to. The Flag button exists for a reason.
Just my two cents.

by Big Jared on Jun 4, 2011 12:22 PM PDT reply actions   5 recs

Hmm...

I feel like this has gotten a lot better, actually. Still, good advice. Use the Flag button, guys!

by zeeehjee on Jun 4, 2011 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Question to Moderators about flagging:

How do you want us to flag comments? Do you want us to enforce every rule and flag any violation? Or let it slide sometimes and just flag the egregious offenders?

I ask because I could see flagging getting out of hand and just making more work for you guys. I think you should be clear what is expected of us so we don’t annoy you with flagging.

by GrodyToadie on Jun 4, 2011 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

I emailed Jeff this very question.

I don’t think you can flag too much, especially if it is egregious. My problem is, that there isn’t a category for breaking site rules. It is either Spam, Troll, or Inappropriate. Neither of those categories really seems appropriate to somebody who doesn’t use the subject line.

by zeeehjee on Jun 4, 2011 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I've been reading here for the last three years

Yet this is my first comment due to the fact that after I read the posts I always like to check out the comments and see other opinions. To me the policing seems like too much to me to be a regular commenter and thus I have stayed away and don’t see myself posting very often. Either way I’ll always read here before bed because the content is grade A material.

by XtotheV on Jun 4, 2011 1:22 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Great job writing this up so concisely.

There’s nothing more useless than rules that are too long to read. This is perfect.

What're ya gonna do with those pies, boys?

by rickpo on Jun 4, 2011 1:41 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Thanks for posting this Matthew.

I’m a little concerned that most of the replies here are by regular readers who have been around for years. I hope that doesn’t mean we’re the only ones who have read it.

by Bearskin Rugburn on Jun 4, 2011 3:26 PM PDT reply actions  

I think the idea is that now we have a single location that we can cut and paste more easily to users that break site rules.

Rather than having to link to the several posts and comments that created this information.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Jun 4, 2011 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh sure

besides which there’s not much to say here for a new reader except ‘Okay’.

by Bearskin Rugburn on Jun 4, 2011 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

And between that and the gentle admonition to be more circumspect until we're more established in the community...

I think is making new readers – myself included – hesitant to speak up on the subject of rules.

They’re YOUR rules. Not ours – Not until ‘we’ are part of ‘you’. So we read, and try to follow.

by Patrick42 on Jun 4, 2011 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm willing to handle a little snobbish elitism if...

It means that I get to communicate with fans who actually get the game, and will actually “talk” about each game. On cbsports, where I have been blogging since it started around 2000, they have taken to becoming minor league prognosticators, and it bores me. I don’t understand stats like WAR, but I do hate text-speak, so it’s a little give and take.

by nolongerafanNBA on Jun 4, 2011 5:44 PM PDT reply actions  

Snobbish elitism?

Respecting fellow commenters is neither snobbish nor elitist. Putting order to a realm mostly associated with chaos really shouldn’t be an issue, especially when that order emulates the rules and societal obligations we follow outside our computer screens.

by MT Olson on Jun 4, 2011 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

I wish there was a way to add the following in an easy to understand manner.

1) The goal is to make great comments. Easy jokes, explaining a joke, expanding on a joke in a way that isn’t more funny or as funny, narrating a game, internet memes, complementing a funny joke with a needless photo, expressing your general distaste for a player, ignoring stats, typing poorly (it’s should’ve, not should of)… these don’t make comments people want to read, now or ever.

2) Recs don’t mean that someone’s comment was good. Every time someone says “that’s what she says” it usually gets 2 or 3 recs from new users that laugh at things that aren’t funny. Recs are a great way to show others that you found them funny, but not the greatest way to judge your own commenting ability.

3) I don’t remember who pointed this out, but a great way to judge if your comments are worthwhile is if you are getting a lot of replies. You can click on your name on the top of the page and see if people are replying. Still, as always, check to make sure that the people replying to you aren’t mass commenters that respond to everything. If your comment leads to another quality comment, chances are your comment was very good.

Often I like to think of comments like resumes. People like to write resumes and put things like “I am a hard worker with great communication skills.” These are meaningless cliches. You can white out the name and write anyone else’s name there and it’s still true. Everyone says them, so resumes that use these cliches become interchangeable. Comments that are the same way, where if you can download a random comment from any internet forum by any user and replace it with yours it’s not a good comments.

Hopefully I said this accurately. It sounds over-complicated though and I may have mis-spoke. Matthew?

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Jun 4, 2011 6:13 PM PDT reply actions   6 recs

Forgot: It's not the community's job to find box scores or answers to easy questions for you.

If you have time to ask people in a game thread, you have time to use Google yourself like an adult.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Jun 4, 2011 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

New guy here, but there was another "guideline" you may want to mention.

The Signature block should not be longer than one, maybe two lines.
You may think some random quote obscure quote, a link to your website, a dozen periods, a punned version of your nickname and the phonetic spelling of your cat coughing up a hair-ball is clever. However, most will find it wasted space and tend ignore what you say. They may also tell you to shorten it. Be nice and do so.

by TJDirk on Jun 4, 2011 6:29 PM PDT reply actions   6 recs

Yes indeed

As discussed here.

We highly suggest that you do away with a signature or if you absolutely must have one, that you limit it to one line.

by lemonverbena on Jun 5, 2011 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the clarification, Matthew.

I try to comment sparingly and to keep within these rules whenever I do.

by VivaAyala on Jun 5, 2011 8:30 AM PDT reply actions  

Long time reader, minimal commenter..

and I know I’ve broken a couple of these in the past, for which I will do my best to improve. I’m hopeful that, if I (or others) do slip up, the general regular readers will react with a sense of friendship or a desire to help one learn from mistakes, and not flame horribly. I love the sense of sibling… ness… that this blog has. Everyone seems to be so friendly! It beats some of the other blogs. :D

by Belom3 on Jun 7, 2011 12:13 AM PDT reply actions  

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