The Obvious Mike Cameron Post
by Jeff Sullivan on Jun 30, 2011 4:35 PM PDT
in Miscellaneous
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You may have heard that the Red Sox designated Mike Cameron for assignment this morning. The obvious question, then, is whether he'd be a fit for the Mariners, and I am not above tackling obvious questions. So here I am, to tackle an obvious question.
The Argument For Mike Cameron
The Mariners, as we know, could use a right-handed hitter. Ryan Ludwick's name has come up a few times, but Cameron would probably come cheaper, both in terms of players and salary. Even though he's 38, one imagines he can still move around all right in the field, and he was a good hitter before running into injury problems with Boston that he should be just about over. Yeah, there's the whole Safeco thing, but Safeco is different for hitters now than it was during Cameron's earlier stint, so it's slightly less of a factor. Were he to succeed, he'd help, and were he to struggle, he could be easily dropped. From a more emotional standpoint, I know a lot of people would be thrilled to see Cammy back in a Mariners uniform.
The Argument Against Mike Cameron
There's the fact that the Red Sox just DFA'd him, for one. The Red Sox signed Cameron for a good amount of money, presumably because they knew what he could bring to the table, so that the Red Sox removed him from the roster is a bad sign. Cameron played hurt last season and this season it's an open question as to whether he's recovered from double hernia surgery. No matter how good a shape he keeps himself in, he is 38, and few players are still productive at his age, at the plate or in the field. His small sample 2011 numbers are bad despite hitting primarily against lefties. The Mariners don't really have time to let a rental player get untracked, as the Red Sox were waiting for Cameron to do until today.
Overall
My eyebrows, like yours, were raised when I read the Cameron headlines, and it was only natural to wonder what it would be like if he came back. And to be sure, there is a little bit of upside in the idea. But then, Cammy is many moons from being productive and many more moons from being what he was originally with Seattle, so it's not like this is a no-brainer. I'd be open to it provided it didn't cost a good prospect and the Red Sox ate most of the salary, but I will happily grant that I'm also a biased Mike Cameron fanboy who just wants to spend as much time with him as possible, and there is a very convincing baseball case to be made that the M's should stay away and look for help elsewhere.
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An embarrassing Griffey retired with us in 2010.
We can do the same with his replacement in 2011!
by Eyebrows on Jun 30, 2011 4:39 PM PDT via mobile reply actions 8 recs
But seriously, it would be kinda fun to get Cameron
even though it could be bad for all the reasons you said.
by Eyebrows on Jun 30, 2011 4:39 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm legitimately interested in seeing what he can still do
but then, I’d probably say the same thing about Chone Figgins if I were a fan of another team that didn’t watch him all the time, so for all I know Cameron may be finished/almost finished. He makes just enough sense in theory for my fanboy alarm to go off.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jun 30, 2011 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions
I would love to see Cameron back in Seattle and retire here.
However, it would seem we already have his skill set in both Guti and Halman. Unless he was a clear upgrade over these two, I would have to regretfully say no to Cameron’s return.
:(
Surely he's an upgrade over Carlos Peguero
I mean, at least in the abstract. If he’s not totally washed up. I probably wouldn’t trust Cameron in center anymore, but he might make a dandy left fielder.
But he doesn't replace Peguero
Cameron is a RH hitter, so he replaces Halman (or Mike Wilson) as the platoon partner for Peguero. Now, I agree Peguero needs to go back down to AAA for more seasoning; and I guess you could platoon Cameron with Carp, but… fielding, ugh. What you don’t want to do is sign Cameron up to be your everyday LF (even assuming his carcass can take the grind) because he hasn’t been a superior hitter vs RHP since 2006; even if he regains his 2010 form, you really want to platoon him.
One more (potential) reason for Mike Wilson to hate his life
The truly sad thing is that a player with so little offensive upside he falls off the end of the Red Sox roster may still be an upgrade for the Mariners; that’s the difference between a team at 117 wRC+ and a team at 79. So it is possible that subtracting him from Boston and adding him to Seattle can improve the average offense of both teams.
Upgrade?
On current performance, on which planet?
by Dave Paisley on Jun 30, 2011 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I assume Earth,
But he could probably be an upgrade on all of them.
by Ballard Erik on Jun 30, 2011 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Could probably?
I like Cameron, but he isn’t the guy to make things better.
It would be nice if we could stop Wedgie’s DH/LF roulette wheel of death.
by Dave Paisley on Jun 30, 2011 8:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Not exactly
He strikes out too much. If we played on another planet I’d get the guy who hits the most fly balls.
by sofa_king on Jun 30, 2011 9:38 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Meant for Ballard Erik.
Reply fail.
by sofa_king on Jun 30, 2011 9:39 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I'd be all for it
If only so we can send Halman back down and let him get regular at bats.
I'm 50-50 on this one
Left field is definitely a bit of a mess, and if Cameron came cheap enough, it might be worth taking a look at him. The M’s have tried this unsuccessfully over the past couple years (ref: Byrnes, Eric; Bradley, Milton).
I also noted that Melvin Mora was released. I’d almost rather see him getting picked up as a potental solution at 3B.
What is really unfortunate is that I (and apparently others) find myself looking at the scrap heap on the waiver wires, daily transactions, etc and thinking “potential solution” to every day positions
I'm on the fence, too
On one hand, I’d like this move if it meant sending Peguero back to Tacoma and keeping Halman up as the 25th man. Then we could consider platooning Carp and Cameron in LF.
However, I have a feeling that if we acquired Cameron, it would mean that Halman would be the one to go to Tacoma and we’d be stuck with more of the same with Peguero. I think Halman and Cameron probably have similar value at this point, and nostalgia factor aside, we’re probably better off playing the young talent.
If Boston were willing to pay Cameron’s contract and accept a B-level prospect for him, then I’d probably make the move, but otherwise, I think the M’s should be looking elsewhere for help.
I would rather Halman get to play everyday
He’s still a player with a lot of potential who would benefit from regular at bats, in my opinion
Do we think any other team might want Cameron?
If I correctly remember how this works, Boston has 10 days to figure out what to do with him. If no trading partners emerge in the next couple of days, they can put him on waivers, and thanks to the 2010 season the M’s are at the top of that list. But he could pass through waivers, too, at which point the M’s could just sign him at the MLB minimum with Boston paying the difference, and no other trade pieces required. If Zduriencik is interested, but only mildly interested, he might be willing to wait it out and see if he can get Cammie for “free.”
Not quite
You can place a player on waivers during the 10 day period, which they’ll do if nobody tries to trade, but if he makes it all 10 days, he has to be released.
I think that I’d prefer that’s how he comes back if he does- signed to a league minimum contract with no risk, some upside, after he’s been released. I don’t think anyone will claim him on waivers because of his salary.
I agree with this. I think this is the only way he's truly worth grabbing.
But if he does get picked up this way, I’ll look forward to seeing him with the team again.
by Ride the Apocalypse on Jun 30, 2011 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd do it
For the reason mentioned in the post that it would cost little and it would probably be an upgrade for this anemic team, and if he sucks just DFA him and don’t worry about it. Even a one win upgrade could be important for us if we’re gonna try and stay in this race/competitive, and he won’t be blocking anyone for hte future or anything.
See, this is a little bit off the subject of Jeff's post.
And we’d really appreciate it if you, and everyone, would stay on the topic of front page posts. There’s catch-all off topics and people can always create fanposts or fanshots to discus whatever they want, but Jeff and I typically put in a lot of effort writing these and it’s at least somewhat irritating when they get taken off subject.
by Matthew on Jun 30, 2011 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
It was my fault for breaching the topic in the first place
I already apologized below. Won’t happen again. I seem to get lost without a game thread.
I know. But from what he wrote it seemed like he was talking about people who were participating in conversation not involving the topic at hand.
So, I figured I should apologize too.
Oh please no.
I love Cammy and it would be cool to see him back, but I don’t think I can take my second most beloved Mariner center fielder go down the way the first one went down. That hurt too much.
by truemsfan on Jun 30, 2011 7:21 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't understand how Cameron would help us.
His defense has been in serious decline in the last couple of years, his hitting has also declined precipitously as well.
He was a good OF in 1009, but has been terrible with Boston. In 600 innings over the past two seasons, his UZR is -9.9.
Last year, despite a .330 BABIP he was still a below average hitter, and this year has absolutely fallen off a cliff.
-0.9 WAR the past two years.
PASS
by dbroncos31 on Jun 30, 2011 7:49 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
"He was a good OF in 1009"
Was Leif Erickson his manager that year?
Man, he’s been around longer than Omar Vizquel and Jamie Moyer put together.
If you're going to make a joke out of his typo,
You should at least make sure you properly spell the name of the person you’re referencing.
by UW2010 on Jun 30, 2011 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions 6 recs
So would the person that stocks the Buffett table.
by Ballard Erik on Jun 30, 2011 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I loved Ken Griffey
I actually cared what Mike Cameron did
by seattlebruin on Jun 30, 2011 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Cammy's top WAR season as a Mariner wouldn't even crack Griffey's top7.
Both players are past their prime, and if we’re basing a decision off sentimental value, Griffey still holds a significant edge.
by UW2010 on Jun 30, 2011 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fair enough, it is all subjective.
I loved Cammy when he was here. But to be honest, at this point I’d prefer to see Halman out there getting reps than see another past favorite in his decline.
Halman has had a good few at bats but he looked worse than Peguero his last time up
maybe he’s improved dramatically, but its possible he’s simply not a major league hitter.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jun 30, 2011 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I think we have to at least give him a chance
He has the tools, he’s just not really getting consistent reps. Ichiro’s not getting any younger, and we need to start finding some long-term solutions for our OF. I don’t know if that includes Halman, but I’d at least like to try to find out.
There are forces in the Mariners FO that absoluely love Cameron
So here’s hoping. Even if he has to be cut it’ll be fun to have him around… and its not like releasing him would be a delicate situation.
by Poochie on Jun 30, 2011 8:23 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Regarding the fact that the Red Sox DFA'ed him despite owing him a lot of money,
1. Youkilis is apparently hurt, and they had to make the move to get another infielder on the roster, and
2. The Red Sox have a lot of money, and will be picking up another expensive outfielder soon anyways, and
3. (a bit of a stretch) Cameron plays left field in the smallest left field anywhere, which mitigates much of his defensive value. They had originally signed him to play center, but ended up feeling comfortable playing Ellsbury there. Plus, Cammy was injured.
So basically, I don’t think they necessarily felt Cameron was absolutely toast as much as they figured they could do better and needed the roster spot. I don’t really know how that sports hernia is progressing, however.
On the one hand, yeah, they were kind of forced into a move
On the other hand, they dumped Cammy and kept Darnell McDonald.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jun 30, 2011 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Didn't realize he's still with them.
For some reason, that makes me feel better about the Mariners. Like when you see some local celebrity eating at McDonald’s and you think, “Wow, they’re just like us…”
Stupid ESPN Insider.
They are such a tease.
by Hopefulmsfan on Jun 30, 2011 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions
See, this is a little bit off the subject of Jeff's post.
And we’d really appreciate it if you, and everyone, would stay on the topic of front page posts. There’s catch-all off topics and people can always create fanposts or fanshots to discus whatever they want, but Jeff and I typically put in a lot of effort writing these and it’s at least somewhat irritating when they get taken off subject.
by Matthew on Jun 30, 2011 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I know there's a certain level of writing ability/knowledge expected for even fanposts/shots
And I didn’t feel like I knew enough about Taijuan Walker to expand on the article itself, but felt it was interesting enough to warrant a mention. I would have put it into an OT, but didn’t see anything recent. I do understand your frustration though, and I really do appreciate the effort you both put into this site. That said, I’ll keep to the topics from here on out. Sorry again.
They just need to be coherent.
A FanPost should be written to generate discussion where a fanShot is appropriate place to share information items such as the link you posted. That’s perfect fanShot material.
Wait, Safeco changed since he left??
Did I miss something? Did the dimensions change??
Which led to this super article.
Here.
I had forgotten that Ichiro and Cameron got so much crap even when the Mariners were good.
I wish I had better info on this....
But sometime between 2004 and 2007 they also installed TONS of glass and glass doors along the first base side of the park on the field level. This in turn created a bit of a wind block that was previously driving balls that were hit to right down.
So that’s another thing.
Although I agree the batters eye was a bigger one.
Would love to see him back here, but only at league minimum and if the Ms are still in it 10 days from now
Not enough of an upgrade right now in LF or DH to merit taking on salary and trading even a low-level prospect away. So wait until the Ms can get him for league minimum… but a lot can change in 10 days. And if the Ms are out of it 10 days from now, and a choice is Cammy having a last hurrah or getting a Saunders-length look at Halman, I’d prefer the latter, by having Halman playing either LF or CF every day. Fall out of contention = please play the kids.
So I’d be ok, assuming the Ms are in it 10 days from now, to see him platoon with Carp/Cust at LF/DH for league minimum.
It was the same situation with Eric Brynes last year, right?
"Satisfaction is the enemy of success." SanFranPreps
by perfectstrat on Jun 30, 2011 11:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Ah, ok. Got it - thanks guys. Still worth waiting to see how the Ms do against the Padres, As and Angels.
Heck, maybe Z pulls off something stunning in the next couple weeks that no one sees coming…
Perhaps another argument for Cameron
Gutierrez is hitting atrociously, and while his fielding seems fine he may need another DL stint. Aside form the gaping hole in LF, the Ms may need to fill center and I ’d be wary of handing it over to Halman.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jun 30, 2011 11:32 PM PDT reply actions
Is he still capable of holding down CF?
His UZR numbers were solid with the Brewers, but they’ve dropped off with the Red Sox (admittedly, SSS). For anyone who’s seen him recently, does he still have it?
No idea
but he was very recently a major league quality player and we are short a few
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jun 30, 2011 11:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I hope we don't have do this
It just reeks of washed up veteran. I just can’t see it working out.
by Shmelix Shmernandez on Jun 30, 2011 11:48 PM PDT reply actions
A waiver claim won't happen
If you claim him off waivers, you get 100% of his contract. If you make a trade, you can bargain for salary relief. If you wait until he is officially released, you can get the player for the minimum, and the releasing team gets to eat the rest of the contract. When we DFA’d Milton Bradley nobody claimed him, nobody traded for him, we released him. Anybody in MLB can now sign him for the minimum, and the Ms will still pay the balance of his contract.
If we could get Cammy for the minimum salary, it wouldn’t necessarily be a big risk. Waiver claim would be silly, and a trade isn’t going to happen
I'm for any player that doesn't cost us Jabari Blash.
...and now I'm here
Not at all. I think he's being underrated by the scouting community.
I’ve seen video. This guy is the real thing. Floor of BJ Upton, ceiling of Willie Mays.
...and now I'm here
You don't like his name?
What do you have against his name? That’s an awesome name. Could be one of the best baseball names of all time.
Jabari Blash. Just say it a few times, you’ll see.
by nathaniel dawson on Jul 1, 2011 11:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Is he so old and broken that he would be about the same as Peguero/Halman/Carp?
My irrational side says I’d love him back. He is one of my favorite Mariners. Also on the Irrational side I hate hate hate Peguero so anything that gets him off the field would make me happy.
I defer to people smarter than me on the stuff that really matters.
Fuck the Angels
Cammy is probably like my 4th or 5th favorite Mariner ever
Plus, Cammy is older than Kennedy. So, maybe Cammy would be the new grizzled veteran at-bat producer. It would be something fresh to hear anyway.
http://drunksacks.mlblogs.com
I love Mike Cameron
But if there was a 38-year-old right-handed outfielder potentially available with Cammy’s recent stats and injury history, only he was named Schmike Schmameron, not many people would want to sign him. Pass.
Schmammerin' Schmike Schmameron?
That guy rules!
mike cameron is easily one of the friendliest guys you'll ever meet.
and we need a “real major league outfielder”. if he comes in, hits .250, and doesn’t make an ass of himself in left field, he’ll be a hero. also, i bet frankie g can learn a thing or two.
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