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Where is The Bedard Line for you?

It's a dilemma that even the most optimistic of us in December would not have forseen.  The Mariners are 2 games out of first and alone in second place in the AL West.  However, they also have tremendous SP and RP depth that can be traded at the deadline a little over a month away.  Primarily, Erik Bedard's resurgence has made him one of the best available pitchers...if he is indeed available.

The main question of this fanpost is:  It is the week of July 31st and the deadline is approaching.  How far back do the Mariners have to be behind the Rangers before you consider trading Bedard?  Where do you draw The Bedard Line?

Before coming up with a number, a few things need to be considered: the remaining schedule, Bedard's health, the effects of fatigue on the Mariners (mainly the starting pitchers), the lack of SP options in Tacoma, the holes in the 2012 roster that a trade can address, the trade market itself, and Jack Zduriencik's history at the deadline and job security.  Let's examine these in turn.

Star-divide

First, the schedule. Jeff already covered the schedule between now and the ASB.  After the All-Star Break, the Mariners play the Rangers 13 times, which proffers a massive opportunity to change the standings.  However, the Mariners also have 6 games each against the Yankees, Red Sox and Rays, as well as the AL Central teams.  The second half of the schedule, in short, looks significantly harder than the first half.  This makes those series' with the Rangers that much more crucial, because moving up on them against the AL East and Central teams is going to be difficult.  That first series against the Rangers could very well set the tone for the Mariners at the deadline, be they buyers or sellers.

Second, Bedard's health.  Just today Jeff wrote on this topic and came away cautiously optimistic that Bedard can make the rest of the season.  I share his cautious optimism, though I am always holding my breath after he starts, fearing that Shannon Drayer will tweet something about his sore hip.  He is a ticking time bomb which can explode at any point, and while the results so far this season have been encouraging, it could go off track in an instant.  The fact that he can become injured at any point also somewhat lowers his trade value, though the numbers he is putting up so far mitigates that somewhat.  

Third, can the Mariners keep this up?  Will the late summer months drain away some of their energy or fight?  Obviously this is hard to predict, but some trends are disturbing, to say the least.  David Pauley is on pace for more than 90 IP, while League, Wright and Laffey are all on pace for over 80 IP.  How good of quality these later innings will be is up for debate.  Michael Pineda and Doug Fister also warrant concern, as neither has thrown more than 190 innings in a year.  Both are young and in good shape, but whether they can keep up their current pace remains to be seen.

Fourth, how big is the drop off from Bedard to his possible replacement?  Answer: pretty friggin big.  The best options in Tacoma, which Geoff Baker ran down a couple days ago, are Blake Beavan, Luke French or the reanimated corpse of Nate Robertson, none of which are putting up inspiring numbers.  David Pauley or Aaron Laffey each have experience starting, and could be stretched out, though that's a time-consuming process and will most likely require one spot start as well as weakening our bullpen.  This is not to say that losing Bedard means the Mariners are screwed, it simply means that it will be harder for the Mariners to win on days he was supposed to pitch as he is simply better by a wide margin than his replacements.

Fifth, what holes can a Bedard trade help plug?  Even with his numbers, expecting Bedard to yield anything more than a major league player and an org player is wishful thinking.  Looking to 2012, there is a definite need for a corner OF with a bat, a 3B and perhaps another starting pitcher.  2012, in the eyes of many Mariner fans, is Year 1 of hopefully a string of years where the Mariners really compete for the AL West crown and hopefully the World Series.  This team, as is, is a great foundation, but it has some flaws.  Trading Bedard in 2011 can help address at least one of those flaws in 2012.

Sixth, consider the market.  Right now, there are not a lot of sellers, as a ton of teams are hanging in contention.  Even as some of these contenders drop off and become sellers, Bedard could easily be the best starter available in what will most likely be a seller's market.  Something else to consider is the fact that Bedard is only making around $1mil, with some escalator clauses, so he's very affordable as well.  Aside from the Phillies, Braves, Giants and Rays, every team could use what the 2011 version of Bedard is doing.  If the Mariners are truly sellers, they can package Bedard with a reliever (League? Pauley?) and yield an even bigger package of close-to-the-majors talent.  Zduriencik should have his choice of excellent deals should he make Bedard available.

Finally, Jack Zduriencik's history and job security.  I don't think it's an exaggeration to claim that the first half of this season has earned Jack Z at least another year on the job, as the youth infusion has made baseball exciting again in Seattle.  As a result, he can afford to punt  2011 in favor of 2012 and still keep his job.  The best analog to 2011 is 2009, when Zduriencik traded Clement, Cedeno, Adcock, Pribianic and Lorin to Pittsburgh for Ian Snell and Jack Wilson, which was a quintessential win-next-year move.  At the time of the move, the Mariners were 7.5 back and in the middle of a bit of a losing streak.

So, in short, the Mariners have Bedard, who cannot be easily replaced, can be injured at any time and is arguably the best starter available in a seller's market.  The Mariners have an intense schedule post-ASB, 13 games head to head with Texas and are taxing their pitchers with high innings counts.  Their GM's job is safe and has a history of pulling off big moves and can do so this year without fearing for his job.

That all being said, it's the week of July 31st.  How far back do the Mariners have to be before you trade Bedard?  Where is The Bedard Line for you?

Poll
How far back do the M's have to be on the week of July 31 before you consider trading Bedard?
1 - 2 games
10 votes
2.5 -4 games
19 votes
4.5 - 6 games
98 votes
6.5+ games
77 votes
Trade him regardless where we are
33 votes

237 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 61 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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So what type of offer would you consider?

Not looking for names, but just types of players you would trade him for

by ManifestDestiny on Jun 22, 2011 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not to answer for Matthew

but I would assume the type would be prospects or cheap good talent. I think any smart team has to consider value (in this case, Bedard contributions in 2011 v. potential contributions down the road) regardless of where we are in the standings and the players in question.

by Ballard Erik on Jun 22, 2011 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think what offer is acceptable is directly related to how close we are in the race

if we’re a game back and the Yankees decide to offer Jesus Montero, then sure, you jump on that.

If we’re 8.5 back and Atlanta offers us some B prospect, it’s a offer you would instantly dismiss while in contention but might have to think about if we’re out of it

by seattlebruin on Jun 22, 2011 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Bedard may still be usefull next year.

He likes playing here, so why not keep him? Our position players will probably be better next year, so the team will probably be better next year as well. I see no reason to get rid of an effective pitcher (when healthy). I say keep him, see how he holds up, and then decide whether or not to resign him.

by LonelyintheBleachers on Jun 22, 2011 12:13 PM PDT reply actions  

I don't understand this

We went through this identical discussion with Cliff Lee last year (without the contention).

He will be a free agent. We can sign him if he ends the season here, if he ends it in NYC, or if he ends it sitting on his couch eating cheetos.

I’m not sure that keeping him for the second half would increase his odds of staying here, and the only way to know that is to sit down and talk with him, which none of us can do.

by Snuffleupagus on Jun 22, 2011 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

About 3.66 given his career ERA.

Seems like you’d want to set a line for pitchers by a worse pitcher’s standards/

by Mariner John on Jun 22, 2011 12:28 PM PDT reply actions  

I think that was the Mangini line.

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Jun 22, 2011 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions   6 recs

Either way, it falls really easily when confronted.

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Jun 22, 2011 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Dammit I fucked that one up.

A better response is “falls easily when stepped around”.

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Jun 22, 2011 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Seriously though, right now we have 5 starting pitchers that I feel comfortable throwing out there.

And we already have to face the idea of shutting down Pineda sometime this year. I don’t want to be faced with the situation that because we traded Bedard, we end up with a rotation that includes French, Beavan and Laffey and I don’t care if we are in the race or not. I want to see the good pitching continue.

Now, would it be nice to get something for Bedard rather than potentially seeing him blow out his arm on August 1st? Sure, but if he’s healthy and we’re in contention, no trading. If we’re out of contention, that sucks, why couldn’t we stay in contention? Damn it, I’m sad.

follow @casetines

by Kenneth Arthur on Jun 22, 2011 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

You left out a consideration

Building fan energy through this season and heading into 2012. Dave Cameron talked about this briefly on Brock and Salk. Trading Bedard regardless of where we are in the standing would be difficult to sell to the fanbase.

by Snuffleupagus on Jun 22, 2011 2:14 PM PDT reply actions  

Good point

But the current team is showing that youth matters, and if we trade Bedard for a young, MLB-ready player (Rasmus, Montero, Mesacoro, etc.), I think there would still be excitement in watching these kids develop and lots of enthusiasm going into 2012

by ManifestDestiny on Jun 22, 2011 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Probably

The Cliff Lee trade is a good model. The people who were upset about it are all at the ballparking cheering on Smoak.

But it’s worth considering because I don’t think it matters if you or I or even Jack Z thinks the Mariners are in contention at the deadline, it matter how the fanbase is treating them.

If they’re seven games out but crowds are still showing up with energy and playoff race excitement, then I think that speaks to keeping Bedard.

by Snuffleupagus on Jun 22, 2011 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Bread and circuses

Fans attend baseball games because they want to be entertained. Pleasing the fans means entertaining the fans. If you trade Bedard for someone who is at least equally entertaining to watch, the fans will be fine with that. The Mariner’s strongest advantage in this scenario is they’d (presumably) be trading a pitcher who plays once every five games with a guy who stands to play nearly every day. If he’s young, promising, and hits the occasional home run, you’re golden.

I think we tend to lose sight of the fact that baseball is entertainment, nothing more. There is no sacred bond of trust between management and the fanbase. Putting together a ball club is like making a movie. Make it fun to watch, make it worth the price of a ticket, and they’ll love you for it.

"Here's to alcohol: the cause of, and answer to, all of life's problems."
-- Homer Simpson

by zagreusmd on Jun 29, 2011 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Well said

Winning is the best and surest method to get fans into the ballpark, but it’s not the only way.

by nathaniel dawson on Jun 29, 2011 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Huh, I'm the first one to click "1-2 games."

And I love Bedard. I love his performance, I love his loyalty, I love how he appears to not care about kissing the media’s ass.
But there’s a nonzero chance that a (brace yourself) Bedard-Figgins package could net you something useful for 2012-2013. And it’s plain to most observers that Bedard-Figgins is not the future of this club, for health and performance reasons.
Summing it up, I’m OK with pretty much any deal Jack makes.

by fiftyone on Jun 22, 2011 3:24 PM PDT reply actions  

Figgins + Bedard

For a starting LF and a high ceiling/low-performing minor league starter

by Larry Bernandez on Jun 22, 2011 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I honestly believe that Figgins + Bedard is worth nothing

Bedard’s worth for the rest of the season might cover Figgins negative value for the rest of his contract.

I wonder if there has ever been such a trade.

by Snuffleupagus on Jun 28, 2011 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't see anyone taking on Figgins at this point, regardless of what the Mariners potentially attach to him

This exact package was discussed in a previous post, and the conclusion was a sound one; teams don’t eat ~$25M in salary for half a season of a productive pitcher.

I believe in Jack and whatever deal he might potentially concoct as being what’s best for the team – but with that being said, I don’t see how he could do it by way of your hypothetical.

by cwel87 on Jun 23, 2011 5:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

I can't help but want to move him.

I want more future talent. Post draft without Rendon makes me still want a hitting prospect. The way he is pitching right now, its getting harder and harder to say he doesn’t warrant a pretty solid package.

by WestCoastBias. on Jun 22, 2011 7:48 PM PDT reply actions  

I would rather just resign him

Most players I would think would rather resign with a team if they aren’t traded by said team than vice versa, Bedard’s arm is basically brand new, so I think he could be like a Carl Pavano and make a comeback (except he’s a infinitely better pitcher than Pavano) and become a pitcher that could stay healthy. I’m not a GM though, I’ll be fine with whatever Jack does.

by SuperDopaLiciousFunkStar on Jun 23, 2011 1:34 PM PDT via mobile reply actions  

Not to rosterbate too hard

But my best guess in Jack Z’s thinking would be that his SPers are his best trade bait. If we are content to punt 2011, then trading a SP like Bedard for a young OF bat would work. Given that we just drafted Hultzen, widely regarded as one of the most MLB ready pitchers in the draft, the hole left in the rotation, though filled by replacement level pitchers this year, would probably be Hultzen’s to lose going into ST next season. If that’s the FO’s thinking, then we do have an extra pitcher, even if the replacement is a year away.

by BQueezy on Jun 25, 2011 8:18 AM PDT reply actions  

It would be very surprising to see Hultzen in our starting rotation next spring

Even Stephen Strasburg wasn’t in the Nationals starting rotation to open the 2010 season. He’ll pitch very little, if at all, this year, and probably be placed in AA to start next year. This is baseball, so I don’t suppose you can’t rule anything out, but the earliest we’re likely to see him in Seattle is mid-season, maybe not til September. That’s if everything goes well and the M’s feel he’s on track and ready to step up and pitch in the big leagues. There’s just as good a chance we don’t see him until 2013.

by nathaniel dawson on Jun 25, 2011 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think he's got a decent chance of breaking camp next year

But, with that being said, that would require one of our current starters to be displaced.

by cwel87 on Jun 25, 2011 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think there is any chance he breaks camp with us. That would mean that most likely he spends all of zero days in the minors.

There are a lot of “MLB ready pitchers” every year, and none of them start their careers in the major leagues.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Jun 26, 2011 12:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't by any means mark it as likely

But one of Hultzen’s great assets as a prospect is his tremendously high floor.

I could envision a scenario where he’s starting for us next year.

by cwel87 on Jun 26, 2011 8:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

With that last sentence, I'm reminded of Ackley.

Because seriously, how many people thought he’d be here in ’10?

by the tourist on Jun 25, 2011 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

A time for ALL CAPS if there ever was one.

"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors

by JY on Jun 29, 2011 11:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

So, we can blame this post for getting Bedard on the DL, right?

“I share his cautious optimism, though I am always holding my breath after he starts, fearing that Shannon Drayer will tweet something about his sore hip knee.”

by thebyron on Jun 30, 2011 6:27 AM PDT reply actions  

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