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Jason Vargas, Dustin Ackley Pretty Good, Mariners Beat Pretty Good Team

Quite possibly the ugliest photo of Dustin Ackley you're ever going to see

Having gone to the game Saturday, I'm thankful that I was there to see Dustin Ackley's first career Major League home run. I was thankful that I watched the Mariners score for the first time in five games I'd attended, but Ackley's moment was especially meaningful. For that player to hit that dinger in that stadium in front of that crowd - that'll go on the surprisingly short list of sports moments I'll never forget. I'll never forget the sound, I'll never forget the trajectory, I'll never forget the roar, and I'll never forget the reluctant curtain call, with a few of Ackley's teammates practically shoving him up the dugout steps.

But while I was glad to have witnessed such a powerful moment, I still walked away from the game feeling pretty upset. With arguably their best starter on the mound against arguably Philadelphia's worst, the Mariners squandered an opportunity to take a winnable contest. They blew chances to score early on, and Shane Victorino's bloop double off the foul line was a stake to the heart. Instead of winning the game and winning the series, the Mariners lost by four, and with the Sunday matchup looking pretty dreadful, it appeared as if we'd go into the offday with the M's at .500. While there's no shame in losing two out of three to the Phillies, that result would've been a letdown given the way the series started.

Suffice to say, my expectations for the Sunday matinee were pretty low. Cole Hamels is an amazing, left-handed pitcher, and though I generally trust Jason Vargas, I didn't trust him to keep up with Hamels. I figured the M's would keep it close for a few innings, then the Phillies would extend their lead by two or three runs, and then they'd add on against the bullpen. This felt like it was going to be one of those demoralizing 7-2 Sunday bummers.

So you can imagine my surprise as I listened to Rick Rizzs and Ken Wilson on the drive back to Portland, and Vargas refused to give in. The top of the first was shaping up to set the expected tone, with the Phillies taking advantage of a couple breaks to put two runners in scoring position with two out, but then Greg Halman saved a pair of runs with a sliding catch, and a different tone was set. Maybe Vargas could do the job after all. When he escaped the fourth with a fluky double play after Carlos Ruiz got caught napping off first, suddenly I felt like this was a game the M's could actually win.

And they won. They won not because they lit up Hamels, but because they did exactly what you'd expect them to do against Hamels, and it simply wound up being sufficient. The M's pushed across two runs. The first scored on a bloop single in front of the left fielder. The second scored on a broken-bat bloop single in front of the left fielder. Aside from a triple that Dustin Ackley ripped into the gap, the M's didn't hit Hamels a whole lot, but they hit him enough. Just as the Phillies won with a blooper and pitching on Saturday, the M's won with bloopers and pitching on Sunday, as Jason Vargas turned in an unlikely complete game shutout.

And a complete game shutout with 15 consecutive retired batters, no less. Vargas is a weird sort of pitcher. He lulls you into this sense of security and comfort when he's on, and then out of nowhere he'll suddenly start getting blasted, with everything turning into an outfield line drive. Today, he just never flipped the switch, even as his pitch count approached a career-high 119. He threw strike after strike and only seemed to get stronger. I couldn't help but notice that he began the ninth by quickly getting ahead of the first three batters he faced 0-2.

I don't know how well this rotation is going to hold up down the stretch. It's one of those concerns that everyone knows about, but no one wants to talk about, in fear of coming off like a wet blanket. I wonder about Michael Pineda. I wonder about Erik Bedard. I wonder about Vargas, and I wonder about Doug Fister. But as concerned as I am about the rotation's future, enough can't be said about the rotation's present. Jason Vargas just won the Mariners a game against Cole Hamels, and the Mariners just took a series from baseball's best team even though Felix Hernandez took a loss. What in the hell?

Over the last three weeks, the M's have played series against the Yankees, Rays, Tigers and Phillies, and in those series, the M's went 9-5.

Star-divide

A few quick bullet holes, since I was only listening on radio:

  • Maybe the wildest thing about Vargas' shutout is that he threw a shutout despite a somewhat ineffective changeup. Only 28 of his 119 pitches were changeups, and half of those changeups went for balls. He compensated by actually managing to locate his curveball, and the numbers tell me that his cutter was outstanding. When people talk about how Vargas' cutter has changed him as a pitcher, this is the kind of game that they'll point to.

  • As one who doesn't listen to baseball on the radio very often, Ken Wilson is a treat. He has such a throwback style that I can practically feel my sideburns extending as he talks.

  • This is a note from Saturday, but the King's Court really does inject a good amount of life into the stadium. People are willing to follow its lead. And not only with two-strike applause - last night, I heard a stadium-wide Let's-Go-Mariners chant that was completely unprompted. The game was at Safeco Field.

  • The fact that Ackley got a curtain call on Saturday, and the fact that Safeco absolutely exploded when he tripled today, speaks volumes about how desperate this fan base has been for a homegrown position player of significance. It also probably makes guys like Greg Halman and Carlos Peguero feel really inadequate and underappreciated.

  • Ackley made a stop to his left on a Chase Utley grounder in the third that Ken Wilson spun into a gem. Watching the video, it wasn't one for the highlight reels or anything, but it's just further evidence that the people who kept painting Ackley's defense as a problem in Tacoma were, for whatever reason, off base.

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I don't think so. Also, many of his outs have been hit relatively hard, and the called third strike he took today was 4 inches off the plate.

It’s already at the point where I have more confidence in him than anyone — including Ichiro — when he’s at the dish. Not saying that will continue, but I’ve been amazed at his bat speed and his ability to square up the ball. I never watched him in the minors.

by Fractal on Jun 19, 2011 8:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

But you have to justify that Ryan isn't doing the job

I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus

by EequalsMc2 on Jun 19, 2011 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Then bat him third

Given the relative power numbers of this lineup, Ackley is probably about what you’d expect power-wise out of the third spot in the order. Smoak stays at the cleanup spot, Ryan in the “two hole” so to speak.

by short on Jun 19, 2011 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

I actually think that was Z's plan all along

And if Figgins had worked out the way he (and everybody else) expected, it would set up beautifully. Alas, Figgins. Ackley has actually expressed an interest in batting 2nd, though I don’t know if that’s because he thinks it’s an interesting spot for his skills or because he just could see the opportunity in the current lineup. But if he continues to establish himself as one of the best hitters on the team, batting him 3rd makes a lot of sense.

by J0SER on Jun 19, 2011 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

I like him at #2, with Smoak at # 3.

Get our three best hitters into the first three spots in the lineup, giving them not only the most opportunities to come to the plate, but having them all hit right next to each other.

Assuming he is one of our three best hitters. It’s not such a bad idea to have him bat further down for a while to see how he takes to Major League pitching. Young players have been known to struggle in the Major Leagues.

by nathaniel dawson on Jun 20, 2011 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

#3 hitter is less important than #4

Look it up in “The Book”. The most important positions in the order are 4,1, 2, with 3 and 5 a bit below that. Smoak needs to bat 4.

by vj on Jun 21, 2011 1:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

A lot of that I think comes from his professionalisim

I mean, he faced up to three consecutive sold out crowds and not only met, but exceeded expectations against two of the best pitchers in the league. If he can handle this, then what can’t he handle?

I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus

by EequalsMc2 on Jun 19, 2011 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm with you on this, Jeff:
I don’t know how well this rotation is going to hold up down the stretch.

Every stellar Pineda or Bedard start has me wondering how much longer it’s going to last. What five starters will the Mariners be throwing out in September?

by Joe Metro on Jun 19, 2011 8:24 PM PDT reply actions  

Pauley? Beaven? Sign someone off from the scrap heap?

I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus

by EequalsMc2 on Jun 19, 2011 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

How about some DL stints?

They did it w/Felix his first year. Set up DL stints for Pineda and Bedard around the ASB so they are pitching with 20 or so fewer innings on their arms come September.

What about someone like Carraway in Jackson?

by Docmilo on Jun 20, 2011 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I'd leave it to Beavan

Seriously, Pauley almost certainly would get the promotion from the bullpen and then they’d find some random arm from nowhere, like Jeff Gray, to replace him in the bullpen. They may even do that sooner rather than later, giving him some spot starts in the heart of the summer when the starters get taxed the most (that early August series in Texas, for example)

by J0SER on Jun 19, 2011 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Tough to say

I mean, you obviously want to unless the Mariners are in the race late in the season. But what exactly defines “in the race” and “late in the season” ? A lot of people have pointed to Madison Bumgarner as a sort of a cautionary tale of burning out a young pitcher his first big league year (although I have to say, the numbers I’ve pulled up on Bumgarner this season look ok. Not as good as last year, but perfectly reasonable, especially considering he’s not even 22 yet). But do you think the Giants or any of their fans really would care if he were having a poor 2011? What would it take for you to be ok with a subpar 2012 Michael Pineda? Playoffs? Pennant? The whole shebang?

by Aly Edge on Jun 19, 2011 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

For a subpar Pineda for only one season?

I’d say playoffs. The problem is, you risk ruining him forever.

by It's Good To Be King on Jun 19, 2011 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

It would probably need to be the Pennant for me.

At least, so long as we’re talking about Pineda being so bad I spent all next season fearing we’d screwed him up for good.

by quacker27 on Jun 19, 2011 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

As you noted, Bumgarner's been solid this season, and the only reason people think he's struggling is his W-L.

He’s been well above average this year, and has essentially matched his performance from last year. He’s on pace to be worth more than 4 WAR this year, per Statcorner. He’s not the best analogy to make.

That being said, the question you raise is a good one, and one that the FO will likely be thinking about for a while. But boy is it a good problem to have.

"Satisfaction is the enemy of success." SanFranPreps

by perfectstrat on Jun 19, 2011 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd err on the side of caution with Pineda.

And with what the Mariner’s have said and done previously with him they’ll probably do something to limit his innings.

He’s one of those guys though, that you look at and watch pitch and see a guy that could probably handle a good workload. I’d like to see it later rather than sooner, just to be on the safe side. If the M’s stay close and he continues to dominate, it could be a difficult decision to make to have him skip starts, pull him out of games earlier, or shut him down. Especially because, look at him, he’s a horse.

by nathaniel dawson on Jun 20, 2011 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

I posted this in the other thread also...

…but today was the first Safeco sell-out since Opening Day. Seems as though fans are starting to buy in.

by BrooklynPreacher on Jun 19, 2011 8:25 PM PDT reply actions  

I think more fans are buying in

…but it was also Father’s day on a nice sunny day and there were an awful lot of Phillies fans in the crowd. Great atmosphere nonetheless though.

by 200tang on Jun 19, 2011 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but a Mariners win....

….like that…and an awful lot of them will want to come back.

by rtang on Jun 19, 2011 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

A Seattle sunny day.

Sun breaks = sunny.

2011 Safeco Field Record: 1-0 ; Overall Safeco Field Record: 13-5

by Fin on Jun 19, 2011 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

By the standards of our May and June so far, yes

The roof was open. It wasn’t actually raining. The sky was somewhat lighter than medium gray.

by J0SER on Jun 19, 2011 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

After yesterday...

When Smoak’s double missed being a two-run dinger by a foot and Victorino’s two-run double was fair by an even smaller margin, it was so nice to see the M’s score on a couple of “excuse me” bloopers.
I don’t need these M’s to win pretty…

I've got ridiculous upside.

by Jacson Bevens on Jun 19, 2011 8:30 PM PDT reply actions  

Anyone have an idea on if/when Pineda gets shut down?

As a rookie he has a cap on total innings, correct?

by CurryInAHurry59 on Jun 19, 2011 8:34 PM PDT via mobile reply actions  

I think it's pitch count, no?

I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul - Invictus

by EequalsMc2 on Jun 19, 2011 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

We don't need to get ahead of ourselves but...

if we are in playoff race, won’t we want him for the playoffs?

Why do players get shut down? total arm stress? It seems to be that maybe he should just start skipping the occasional start, to rest. depending on how the race is going.

by Snuffleupagus on Jun 19, 2011 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

I want to make it clear I'm no authority on the issue.

But it seems to me that skipping starts would be more detrimental than, say, just limiting his number of pitches thrown later in the race. There’s also the argument that he’s been pitching for eight years (since 14 years old) and that maybe the stress isn’t as detrimental as we think.

Has anyone seen any documented literature on the issue?

And now, Game of Thrones…

Teams (for foreign blogs): Seahawks, Mariners, Huskies and Broncos. Yes, I recognize the contradiction; I was born in Denver.

by THolt on Jun 19, 2011 9:10 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

They have been keeping him a bit short on the pitch count leash.

I think he has only broken 100 three times (although he’s ended up in the high nineties a bunch of other times).

by quacker27 on Jun 19, 2011 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

What about giving an extra day or two's rest between starts?

Having him pitch every 7 days instead of every 5. Conventional wisdom of have 4 days rest between starts never really gets tested all that much, in college, a lot of teams pitch there guys once a week, each weekend against a conference opponent… seems like that schedule would be less stress on a young arm, no?

by BQueezy on Jun 19, 2011 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Makes sense to me.

I’d wait until after the All-Star Break. If the M’s are still close, then start giving him extra rest. The one problem is that I’m not sure we have all that many great choices for a 6th starter (which would be why they were a 6th starter in the first place, I guess).

by quacker27 on Jun 19, 2011 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

The ending to game of thrones was pretty intriguing...

Anyways, I say leave him going 95-100 per game, then when august rolls let him rest once in the first week and once in the third, like Tholt said, he’s been a pro for eight years.

by Seahawks4life on Jun 19, 2011 11:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pineda! Dragons!

The obvious conclusion? Pineda is a dragon. As there are issues with my reconciling sports with fantasy, there are issues reconciling pitching with itty-bitty arms. Watch his pitch count/potential spouting of wings. I predict direct causal correlation.

Teams (for foreign blogs): Seahawks, Mariners, Huskies and Broncos. Yes, I recognize the contradiction; I was born in Denver.

by THolt on Jun 19, 2011 11:31 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Also, not a pro for eight. Made the transition to pitching at 14.

Your point stands, though.

Teams (for foreign blogs): Seahawks, Mariners, Huskies and Broncos. Yes, I recognize the contradiction; I was born in Denver.

by THolt on Jun 19, 2011 11:33 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

If memory serves me correct, they've bumped him back a couple times in the rotation, but that only serves to give him an occasional six days between starts, instead of the usual five.

They’re going to have to do more than that to limit him to around 180 innings, which is what I seem to remember as their goal for him before the season started. Right now, he’s on pace to pitch around 200 innings. Not a huge amount more than projected, but I’m a worry wart, so I’m hoping they find some way to limit his innings without sacrificing team wins.

by nathaniel dawson on Jun 20, 2011 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's all an organizational call. There's no hard and fast rule.

There is likely a target for innings pitched that the front office decided on prior to this year, but it was probably conducted with an assumption that we wouldn’t be in a division race. It will be interesting if the team is swayed by contention or sticks to their guns and shuts him down when he gets to a certain point (which by the way, none of us know). They did shut him down last year, so it wouldn’t be shocking if they did this year (and almost surely will if we fall out).

If there is a shutdown point it will be in terms of IPs and not pitches (I’ve never heard of that).

by SethGrandpa on Jun 19, 2011 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure how much this answers your question, but...

His career high is 139.1 innings (split between AA & AAA last year) and he’s at 88.2 innings (and 1349 pitches) right now. I can’t imagine they’d want him to go much higher than 160-170 innings.

by wyte_lightning on Jun 19, 2011 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

The thing about Pineda, as it was with Felix, is that he is a big man.

Big guys can take a lot more stress on their arms than the normal pitcher. Felix pitched 191.0 innings in his first full season at age 20. Pineda is pitching at age 22. And although the innings might be higher than anything he has pitched before, the important thing is he isn’t pushed into high stress pitch counts. Pineda’s highest pitch count is 106 pitches. He’s broken 100 pitches only four times in 14 starts (two more at 99 pitches). That’s really not a heavy load for anybody to handle.

Pineda can go 190 IP as long as the Mariners keep doing what they are doing. I imagine, however, they will skip starts if the team falls out of contention.

by Wilder. on Jun 19, 2011 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

There's probably something to it, especially for taller pitchers

Longer arms mean more leverage, which presumably places less stress on joints while pitching at the same velocity as shorter players. Larger, stockier players may also have bigger, thicker ligaments and tendons that hold up better. But as you say, it’s pretty much impossible for any of us to know with a particular pitcher, as every person is put together differently. Just because a person looks big and strong, doesn’t mean his parts are put together in such a way that he’s bulletproof.

by nathaniel dawson on Jun 20, 2011 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah I'd say injury history is probably more useful than player size

Pineda doesn’t have the best medical record but I guess it could be worse or maybe he has grown out of it.

by Edgar for Pres on Jun 20, 2011 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Felix had also thrown 149 and 172 innings in the previous two years.

He also never had to be shut down for most of a season for arm problems.

by It's Good To Be King on Jun 19, 2011 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I believe Felix' IP was limited to 10x his age the first couple of seasons

The so-called “Verducci Effect” hasn’t stood up to hard statistical scrutiny, or even anecdotal scrutiny — Felix himself was a candidate, and so was Cole Hamels, along with Jurrjens, Kershaw, Lester, and Lincecum — but the anecdotal failures that serve as warnings (Wood, Prior, etc) still haunt everybody. Going all in to win it all may sound great, but the postseason is a crapshoot so your best bet is to set yourself up to reach it multiple years in a row to maximize going all the way. You may roll the dice on being the 1997/2003 Marlins, but it’s smarter to try to be the 1990s Braves.

by J0SER on Jun 19, 2011 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

I wasn't suggesting the Mariners "going all in to win"

In fact, if you read further down the thread, I think it’s stupid.

by Wilder. on Jun 19, 2011 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, sorry, I was actually responding to the sentiment further down too

Should’ve broken this into two comments, or just responded down there — the idea that

If blowing up Pineda’s arm gives us a 25% chance of winning the world series then you do it.
Because even arriving at the postseason with a team that was no weaker than any of the others only gives you a one-in-eight chance of winning the WS, so no amount of blowing up players can get you those kind of odds. But it almost certainly worsens your odds of doing it again in the near future.

by J0SER on Jun 19, 2011 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Jack Z has said they're going to take a logical approach on handling Pineda.

They don’t have a hard set IP limit nor should they. Pineda has been really efficient and gets to the 7th and 8th inning continuously under 100 pitches. It wouldn’t be fair to him to put him on a hard IP limit

by Scruffy Lefty on Jun 19, 2011 8:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fair being key word. Kid's a player. He wants to play.

If this team is in a stretch drive, shutting him down while healthy would be cruel. And stupid. I mean, why do you play at all? You play for meaningful games in the fall. When you get them, that’s the brass ring. You’re going to jeopardize all that on a theory? On an old wive’s tale?

by Hawnk on Jun 19, 2011 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Let's say we were going into the postseason.

Do we think that the organization would risk burning him out? Or would we go with a postseason rotation of Felix/Bedard/Vargas? All major speculation I know, just curious what the general opinion was..

by CurryInAHurry59 on Jun 19, 2011 8:50 PM PDT via mobile reply actions  

I doubt they would burn him.

Maybe he would help in the bullpen. But I don’t think they would risk his long term health.

by Scruffy Lefty on Jun 19, 2011 9:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

If you get to the playoffs you should risk everybody's health if its gonna get you to win everything

If blowing up Pineda’s arm gives us a 25% chance of winning the world series then you do it. If you have a legitimate chance of winning the world series then you do everything you can because in all likelyhood you won’t get that shot again.

by Edgar for Pres on Jun 19, 2011 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I really want to win a world championship

I’d throw Felix on 3 day rest throughout the playoffs. Is this an injury risk? Probably but what’s the point of having great players if when it matters you refuse to use them to their fullest.

by Edgar for Pres on Jun 19, 2011 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's the same argument as sending Pineda to Tacoma for an extra year of control

if he’s ready, he’s ready. If the team is clicking in the playoffs, then you need to ride your horse, and Felix is the best horse at the track.

by B Money on Jun 19, 2011 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

You don't do it with Pineda

He was suggesting that we can’t put Felix out on short rest in the playoffs, because we’re building for the future. That seems silly to me. I’d trade away 50 years of AL West dominence for one WS.

by B Money on Jun 19, 2011 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe, perhaps even probably

I’d still trade that for one WS. Building for the future is fine, when all hope is lost, but it’s not yet. So why save Felix for the future when we can win now?

by B Money on Jun 19, 2011 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wow...that's rough

I don’t know if I’d do that. I’m thinking Felix, Pineda, Bedard and Vargas. Throw Felix on 3 days if it’s a must win, otherwise give everyone 4 days.

by B Money on Jun 20, 2011 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe it makes more sense to say it this way

I would happily trade Pineda for anything if it meant we received a world series ring.

by Edgar for Pres on Jun 20, 2011 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

But it doesn't mean that

That’s why teams set themselves up to compete in multiple seasons – because the playoffs are such a crapshoot that it often takes multiple tries to snag that elusive ring.

And the hypothetical you present in this situation – it simply just doesn’t work that way.

by cwel87 on Jun 20, 2011 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I would too

but I don’t know if I would trade Pineda during the playoff run that won that ring. At least not if he was in the rotation at the time.

by B Money on Jun 21, 2011 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

In this hypothetical, we are assuming there is no regression from Pineda

Which is unrealistic. 3 of his last 5 starts have been on the “iffy” end of great. You don’t shove a rookie (who might be overused already at that point) into the playoffs when he’s been inconsistent.

In case of playoffs, get ready to see Vargas and possibly Fister. I like Pineda as much as anyone, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

by HititHere on Jun 20, 2011 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

If they were to get into the post-season

Pineda could probably be a lock-down late inning reliever, if they chose to use him that way. Forget about it.

by nathaniel dawson on Jun 20, 2011 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, hopefully you'd only need three or four starting pitchers.

Assuming all continues to go as planned, Felix, Bedard, Vargas, and Fister could be a fine post season rotation with Pineda being used as needed for long relief or as the shutdown ace as you mentioned.

Then again, if we limit his innings starting in… oh… say… August, we could probably allow for another whatever innings / pitches in the post season as a starter and I don’t think it would do much harm.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jun 20, 2011 9:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Or, if we look like we have some kind of chance to play in the post-season,

they could limit his innings in August by moving him to the bullpen to get a feel for it, and be ready if it comes to that. It would come down to what the M’s feel their priority is at that time — keeping a stud pitcher in the rotation to optimize their chances of making the playoffs, or playing it safe and making sure he doesn’t over-extend himself. No one knows the right answer to that question, it’s all about how you view the risk of giving him a full starter workload throughout the season and into the playoffs.

by nathaniel dawson on Jun 21, 2011 7:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Has Dustin Ackley Been Ahead in a count yet...

im pretty sure every at bat he has fallen into a 0-2 or 1-2 hole

by dustin_smoakley on Jun 19, 2011 8:59 PM PDT reply actions  

So having peaked at The Good Phight, it doesn't look like fans from other teams think much of Vargas.

Which yeah, I get. But counting on Vargas being well thought of in terms of trade value is disappointing.

by stredarts on Jun 19, 2011 9:51 PM PDT reply actions  

And just in case some idiotic Angels fan wants to rip on the city of Seattle itself

“All it does is rain there, go drink a latte and listen to grunge music”

“I would going to respond with whatever Anaheim’s equivalent of a latte joke would be, but then I realized that Anaheim isn’t interesting or culturally relevant enough to be the target of even the most generic, tired and unfunny jokes. So congratulations for rooting for a team that represents America’s enema receptacle.”

(stolen from a poster a couple years ago, so the credit goes to someone else, but didn’t save the username… apologies)

by wyte_lightning on Jun 19, 2011 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dammit, thanks.

I must’ve messed up my search for the comment somehow.

by wyte_lightning on Jun 19, 2011 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

To be fair, Vargas has improved since last year and he has had some real stinker starts this year.

Home opener comes to mind.

How come you can do all this other great shit, but you can't lie the fuck down and sleep?

by JAH on Jun 19, 2011 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think of Jamie Moyer

just because of the changeup, I guess.

by Milendriel on Jun 20, 2011 12:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

And that whole hitters looking baffled thing

Despite the strange number coming up on the speed gun (“oooh la la”)

by J0SER on Jun 20, 2011 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

Jason Vargas reminds me a whole lot of Jamie Moyer

Not only the pitches he uses, but how he uses them. I don’t know whether he has ever watched Moyer pitch and has taken some things from him, or if he has just gone the same way all on his own. Sometimes it’s uncanny.

by nathaniel dawson on Jun 20, 2011 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would have loved to see Moyer yell "Fuck these motherfuckers."

How come you can do all this other great shit, but you can't lie the fuck down and sleep?

by JAH on Jun 20, 2011 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Those "Let's Go Mariners" chants weren't unprovoked.

They were originally “Let’s go Phillies” chants from our inebriated compatriots from the city of Brotherly Love. I was at the game too and one of them got tossed out of our section.

by spud814 on Jun 19, 2011 10:06 PM PDT reply actions  

Section 331ish?

Yep I was there too, I was going to point this out. We were just trying to out-loud the obnoxious Phillie fans. I had a good time despite the loss.

by mamaxmax on Jun 19, 2011 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

I saw a drunk Phillie fan gett arrested Saturday night too

Fans were singing the Na Na Na, Hey Hey, Goodbye while he was escorted out.

by MrFootballguy on Jun 19, 2011 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

From our vantage point

the “Let’s go Mariners” chants seemed concurrent with a couple of Mariners employees running back and forth with signage prompts.

It was a far cry from the booming “LET’S GO!….MAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRINNNNNNNNNNNERRRRRRRRS” of the Kingdome days, but still nice to hear.

by Omerta on Jun 20, 2011 7:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

I was down in section 134.

The Phillie fans weren’t quite so inebriated in that area, but we had to start a few “Let’s Go Mariners” chants to try and drown out the “Let’s Go Phillies” chants. A M’s fan a few rows behind us had an amazing set of lungs and that really helped.

by Jed MC on Jun 20, 2011 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

This was truly a great game to be at

The feeling in the crowd, I haven’t ever felt from a Mariners crowd before when I’ve been. Super excited for this team right now.

by olystuart on Jun 19, 2011 10:19 PM PDT reply actions  

Is it just me

Or does the King’s Court feel a little bit like the ECS section at Sounders games? One section of fans who aren’t afraid to be loud and proud because you’re not sitting next to a family of 5 which is just there to root on the hydros and solicit rally fries.

It’s amazing how easy it is to get the whole stadium going with only one section setting the bar. I hope this lasts, because it’s a hell of a lot of fun.

Rooting for lovable losers since 1984.

by seattlecougar on Jun 19, 2011 10:51 PM PDT reply actions  

Please... no vuvu-zees.

They drowned out the chants :(
Like at the world cup.

by Kunkoh on Jun 19, 2011 11:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

How about a triangle?

And then play the opening of YYZ at the bottom of every inning?

by Matsui on Jun 19, 2011 11:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

I hope the team stays relevant.

I miss the way it felt to go watch a game in the Kingdome.

by David Hodgson on Jun 19, 2011 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

More of an atmosphere thing.

The crowds in the Kingdome were fun even when the baseball wasn’t.

by David Hodgson on Jun 20, 2011 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

The great thing about those days was if someone hit a home run

The ball would bounce around for a while until somebody could get over to that section to pick it up. And if you bought a cheap bleacher ticket the ushers didn’t seem to care where you sat as long as it wasn’t down in the fancy seats.

by J0SER on Jun 20, 2011 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

It's a relative term

My family was poor as hell. Even getting a moldy, cold King dog was pretty fancy.

by B Money on Jun 20, 2011 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Too true..

I remember my first game at The Dome, my dad took me in ‘91. I don’t even remember who we played. All I remember is a Junior foul ball that landed just a few feet from me (didn’t get it) and the drunk guy behind us puking on my Seahawks jacket.. Good Times!

by CurryInAHurry59 on Jun 20, 2011 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

But on the bright side, the dugouts were actually the right height/spacing to use as a footrest.

Unlike the Safeco ones. One of my earliest memories of a Mariners game was Game 3 of the ‘95 ALDS, and almost having my head taken off by a foul ball. My mother wasn’t too pleased with my dad for letting me sit down there after that.

by Rachmaninoff on Jun 20, 2011 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Cement and benches

sure, individual seats are nice and comfy. But pounding on those benches made some serious noise.

by Snuffleupagus on Jun 20, 2011 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

I haven't been to a game since King Court started

But I really want to go and get ticket for that section. I want to get rowdy with other fans. I love hearing/reading/seeing shots of it during the game.

by GriffinNW on Jun 20, 2011 12:33 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ackley always seems to get into a 0-2 count.

Then he singles, homers, triples…

I’m pretty sure he does that on purpose, just to fuck with the pitcher.

by Kunkoh on Jun 19, 2011 11:00 PM PDT reply actions  

Just look at that smile when he slides into 3rd...

It’s the same smile Cliff Lee has when he’s pitching.
It says, “I’m in your head, stealing your bases.”

by Kunkoh on Jun 19, 2011 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Who is next in line in the rotation?

If a starter goes down, who is next in line?

In order, I’d say 1) Pauley 2) Beavan 3) Laffey 4) French

Scary. We are really thin. Wedge might be against moving Pauley out of the pen due to his success there. Beavan could probably do decently. Laffey and French are…well…arms, but are much better suited facing LHs in a relief role.

by bbd1996 on Jun 19, 2011 11:01 PM PDT reply actions  

I'd like to think this isn't true

the defense this season has been good (I think) and it’s nice to have at least one lefty in the pen, especially a guy who can toss a few innings if needed

by seattlebruin on Jun 20, 2011 12:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

We may be thin behind our starters, but we've got really strong guys currently in the rotation.

A lot of teams have been relying on the Pauleys, Frenchs and Beavens of the baseball world for their 4th and 5th spots all season. Think of what they might have to be turning to when one of their starters goes down. We don’t have it so bad.

by nathaniel dawson on Jun 20, 2011 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

I've really been enjoying Ken Wilson

He’s the best of the Dave N “stand-ins.” There have been a few times when he’s kind of understated something really exciting, but Rizzs is always there to add extra sparkley sprinkles onto everything if necessary. And Wilson just has that soothing radio voice that sounds like back porches and lemonade, sand lot pickup games and baseball cards with gum. Most importantly, it’s the kind of voice that can talk you down from killing something when Figgins boots another ball or kills another rally.

by J0SER on Jun 19, 2011 11:16 PM PDT reply actions  

The Kens have been a delight.

Much better than the non-Sims Daves. Ken’s voice is just about the prototypical sports broadcaster voice.

by Mariner John on Jun 19, 2011 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

I prefer the other Ken. Mostly just because of his relative modernity.

And say what you want about Rizzs, but he has really efficient, exciting play calling. When Rizzs trades off innings with Wilson, I always notice how long it takes Wilson to describe what happens. For example, he always puts an O’Baby in before he describes the play. He does have a good voice though.

by stredarts on Jun 19, 2011 11:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I too think he's been the best

But it annoys me that often one can’t tell if something great has happened for the M’s or the other team in pivotal moments because his tone and use of slogans, such as “oh baby”, are the exact same. Rizzs used to have this problem too, but no longer does. With Niehaus, even when the other team made a great play and he’d get excited about it, there was always a hint of a something in his voice that indicated it was a great play by the other team before he actually said the words indicating that.

So if the ball was hit to deep or something by the M’s and was just caught robbing a player of maybe a game winning double or something, you could tell before he actually said the words. With Wilson you get something like a: “to the track, to the wall, and ohhhhh babyyy..” and at that point you have no idea if the “oh baby” is for the Mariners or for the other team making a great catch. Rizzs and Niehaus include a certain tone in their voice that tells you the other team just did something great or if the M’s just had something great happen. Wilson plays with my emotions for a few seconds and annoys me. ;-)

Other than that, I think he’s got a great baseball voice and calls the game well. Wouldn’t mind them hiring him full time next year.

by TIFO on Jun 20, 2011 12:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

For the past couple of years

My family has been purchasing tickets at the beginning of the season for a few Sunday games. The pitchers at those games have always ended up being Vargas, Fister, or Rowland-Smith. No Felix, no Cliff, no Pineda, no Bedard. Since I can rarely make it to other games, that’s been painful.

This game made the Sunday Curse completely worthwhile.

by Skylarious on Jun 20, 2011 1:31 AM PDT reply actions  

Series Full of Meaning!

If this series was any kind of exclamation point on the Mariners being contenders vs. pretenders this year, I think we’ve got a great shot at the division.

South of the Dome - MAGIC!

by SodoJoe on Jun 20, 2011 2:39 AM PDT reply actions  

That win-loss record referenced is really just outstanding

9-5 versus four of the six most talented teams in baseball?

That’s mind-blowing.

by cwel87 on Jun 20, 2011 3:51 AM PDT reply actions  

Don't forget about Boston.

Rays, Yankees, Phillies, Tigers. and Red Sox….Mariners are 11-6.

Not bad.

by EdgarBoneJr on Jun 20, 2011 8:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

To be fair, though, that was when Boston was still a bad team

They were 11-13, had just lost a series to Baltimore, and their fans were looking for bridges to jump from, when the M’s came to town. Beating the .458 team they were then is less impressive than beating the .605 team they are now. (Though of course the team they actually are probably lies between those two poles.)

by J0SER on Jun 20, 2011 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

I could taste the tears of the Phillies fans seated all around us

and they were sweet indeed. Love going to sell-outs at the Safe.

by Omerta on Jun 20, 2011 7:30 AM PDT reply actions  

Actually, maybe Jeff should contact katherinekiyoko and get the story

You always wonder (or at least, I do) about significant HR balls like this. What was it like in that section as the ball arcs towards it? What was it like after the guy came up with the ball? What’s the actual process that gets the ball back to the hitter and the signed replacement ball to the fan?

by J0SER on Jun 20, 2011 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

I got a hand on a first HR when I was 9 or 10

I want to say it was Marc Newfield, but don’t quote me on that. As for being in the section, it was at the dome so I can’t compare. I remember it happened pretty quickly and I got a hand on it in the air. It slipped out and fell down; this is when the old jerk made his move. He was in the seat directly in front of me, and after mistiming his jump, he pushed me away as the ball was falling and grabbed it.

Some reps came down and whisked him away where he proceed to meet the player, get a signed jersey, baseball and some other swag. I’ll never forgive that turd.

by B Money on Jun 20, 2011 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

I've never caught a game ball, foul or homer

But whenever I sit down at a game I always look around my section to find the nearest kid so I know who I’ll give it to if I ever catch one. Adults don’t need baseballs.

by J0SER on Jun 20, 2011 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

I'm sorry, but this is bullshit

If they’re under the age of 7/8, this is crap. Kids always get the baseballs, whether it’s from the pitchers after they’re done warming up or a foul ball from the ball girl. Once in a while, a real, adult fan deserves to have a piece of memorabilia.

Yep, my fiance caught Ackley's first home run!

by katherinekiyoko on Jun 20, 2011 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions   9 recs

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to disparage your ball

I was just talking about what I do; I wouldn’t presume to dictate behavior to anyone else. (I guess that last line could be interpreted that way, but that wasn’t what I meant: it was philosophic, not prescriptive). And honestly, I don’t know what I would do if I caught a genuinely significant ball. Probably do what you did, actually. But like I said, I’ve never caught one, and — aside from my youthful days in the Kingdome bleachers where you could just run over to the empty section where one landed — I’ve never come close. But I’ve had a few foul balls go over my head, and I’ve always thought if one of those came my way I’d give it away, since it would mean more to some kid than it would to me.

by J0SER on Jun 20, 2011 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sorry back, I didn't want to sound mean either

Prior to Saturday, I’ve never received a ball from a game, and it’s always because a kid gets it. Nothing against kids or giving balls to them, but I like getting a souvenir too.

Yep, my fiance caught Ackley's first home run!

by katherinekiyoko on Jun 20, 2011 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

And your souvenir is really, really cool

Considering all the anticipation and celebration of Ackley this weekend, getting a personal piece of it is really amazing. I mean, the odds weren’t even that good that Ackley hit his first MLB home run at home, let alone in his debut all-Ackley-all-the-time home series. Whenever they show the highlights of the 2011 season, they’ll show that first home run arcing towards the stands, and there you’ll be. And if he goes on to have a really celebrated career, well….

by J0SER on Jun 20, 2011 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed in a sense

If I caught Ackley’s first HR ball myself, I’d keep the shit out of it. I’m a lousy human being…but ripping a prize like that away from a pre-teen is pretty sick.

by B Money on Jun 21, 2011 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Kevin Youkilis tried to bargain with me for Manny's 499th homer. He is just as ugly up close.

Manny didn’t even care about the ball though, and the most they were offering me was signed David Ortiz swag. Not worth it!

by BrettJMiller on Jun 20, 2011 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'll write out the story if anyone wants to hear it

We haven’t met Dustin yet though.

Yep, my fiance caught Ackley's first home run!

by katherinekiyoko on Jun 20, 2011 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fan post is up

Yep, my fiance caught Ackley's first home run!

by katherinekiyoko on Jun 20, 2011 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

oops

here’s the link

Yep, my fiance caught Ackley's first home run!

by katherinekiyoko on Jun 20, 2011 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Heh. It does look like that

And he did go to college. Doc Ack?
“Crucial situation, can Akley get a hit here?”
“Trust me; I’m a doctor”

by J0SER on Jun 20, 2011 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

That is so awesome.

I would try to get a high quality print out of this picture and make a little display with the ball. I cannot help but smile when I look at this picture, so much genuine happiness on everyones faces (except for that guy next to your fiance who you can tell is lamenting how close he came to getting the ball while his friends laugh at him).

by Mind of no mind on Jun 20, 2011 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ha, I know!

He kept telling us all night how he almost caught it, but he didn’t stand a chance against my fiance (Michael) at 6’4’’.

Yep, my fiance caught Ackley's first home run!

by katherinekiyoko on Jun 20, 2011 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also, for what it's worth, according to FanGraphs Ichiro has been less and less worthless.

In the last week, he went from around -1 wins to -.2 wins! And that’s with the fielding problems!

by Coach Owens on Jun 20, 2011 10:39 AM PDT reply actions  

Looking at wRC+

Mar/Apr: 129
May: 30(!)
Jun: 108 (and counting)
That 30 is the lowest monthly value of his career, even worse than the 39 he put up in his now-forgotten mini-slump in August 2006.

I’m deliberately avoiding UZR, and therefore WAR, because sample sizes this small are meaningless.
(In fact, they’re probably pretty questionable for samples as small as entire year, which calls the whole Fangraphs WAR calculation into question, but anyway….)

by J0SER on Jun 20, 2011 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ichiro has the same RZR as last year (.925), but people aren't hitting the ball towards him.

The number off balls hit in his zone last year was one ball per five innings – 281 balls in zone in 1412 innings. This year it is one ball per 7.5 innings – 80 balls in 609 innings.

He’s also making less out of zone plays (one in 15 innings last year versus one in every 19.5 innings this year). I’m not sure how balls in zone correspond with number of out of zone plays, but it appears Ichiro’s UZR is being impacted because there are relatively fewer catchable balls hit to RF.

Perhaps the size of the zone as measured by RZR has changed year over year (I don’t know), so last year’s metrics might not be directly comparable to this year’s.

by Jed MC on Jun 20, 2011 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just to add a little more info,

This year Nick Markakis has played two less inning than Ichiro, has a .923 RZR based on 117 balls in his zone and has 33 out of zone plays. His range is 1.2 runs below average and Ichiro is 8.6 runs below average.

by Jed MC on Jun 20, 2011 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Vargas gets no respsect.

Complete game 3-hit shut out of the Phillies. How does ESPN cover this? It doesn’t. But it does mention “Complete Gems” for Verlander and Shields, and they both game up a run.

I am thinking Vargas was right when he said “Fuck these mother-fuckers”.

by EdgarBoneJr on Jun 20, 2011 10:47 AM PDT reply actions  

I had the EXACT SAME bitchfest to a buddy of mine about this via email

Instead, “Yankees rally past Cubs” is newsworthy.

God I was pissed.

"Pass rushers enter the world of Okung but never leave." - JM

by Nick Andron on Jun 20, 2011 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yankees beating Cubs is newsworthy because it was the ESPN Sunday Game of the Week

and thus probably attracted significant viewership over a Sunday matinee game shown on ROOT Sports.

How’s this – if we make the playoffs or come close to it, I guarantee ESPN will start having a lot more Mariners coverage

by seattlebruin on Jun 20, 2011 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is why you shouldn't bother with ESPN.

I check out their Power Rankings for kicks, but beyond that, it’s mostly just East Coast focused drivel, with most of the decent stuff being Insider-only. Fangraphs and SBNation aren’t perfect, but they’re better, at least.

by Rachmaninoff on Jun 20, 2011 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

The east coast biase thing really is kind of dumb.

ESPN loves the Lakers, loves Seattle when we are contending and they enjoy covering the bay area as well. It isn’t their fault that our team has been so bad recently that nobody but us cares. They like to cover good teams, which makes sense, we are not a particularly good team.

by Kirk on Jun 20, 2011 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Sunday was the only ESPN I saw

After the Yankees-Cubs game. They did have a quick blurb on the M’s-Phils game (after the seemingly endless golf updates) and I think it preceded the other baseball updates except for the Marlins manager news. Not sure though, because the sound was off. I guess I give ESPN about as much attention as they give the Mariners, come to think of it. So that’s fair.

by J0SER on Jun 20, 2011 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

I was at the Giants game last weekend and the entire Baseball Tonight crew was in Willie Mays Plaza.

They looked to be having a great time after the Giants beat the Reds, and tons of fans showed up to be in the background.

"Satisfaction is the enemy of success." SanFranPreps

by perfectstrat on Jun 20, 2011 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

I've never been to Wrigley

But it looked like the equivalent last night was in the parking lot of a McDonald’s across the street from the field.

by J0SER on Jun 20, 2011 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sometime in 2001, probably

I’m not even sure what constitutes a “sellout” since the numbers are always different. Starting on June 2, 2001 they pretty much sold out every home game for the rest of the season: except for a couple of high 44K games (Thursday day games, mostly), they are all recorded as 45K+. If you accept those 44K games as non-sellouts, then the longest streak looks to be 18 games, from June 6 to July 25. It’s possible you can find a longer streak including the postseason and the start of 2002, or maybe there’s even a longer one in early 2002, I didn’t look.

by J0SER on Jun 20, 2011 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Safeco defines a "sellout" as a game in which they have no more tickets to sell.

The actual number varies widely based on how many free tickets have been given to players, media, and the org that day.

I worked there in 2001 and 2002, and specifically remember hearing the “consecutive sellout streak” announcements they had each game. I want to say it hit somewhere around 40 – 45, if not much higher, but I am having trouble finding a final tally.

by HititHere on Jun 20, 2011 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

To clarify, many of those 44,000+ games count as sellouts due to the free tickets.

This article notes that 44,000+ can be sellouts, as well as notes that they currently had a streak of 30 going at the time.

by HititHere on Jun 20, 2011 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just ordered a Dustin Ackley jersey!

I was there at the game on Saturday, and he just had me with that dinger.

by Swiftey on Jun 20, 2011 1:10 PM PDT reply actions  

You'll see him actually wearing one in the "Turn Back the Clock Game" July 1

Assuming he plays in that game, of course. So I wouldn’t be surprised if they start offering an 80s-style one for him then, or not long after.

(Have to say, using Olivo and Smoak for that “Mariners Vice” poster looks like a bit of a missed opportunity now that it could be Guti and Ackley)

by J0SER on Jun 20, 2011 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

One was on the DL with a still-undiagnosed condition

and one was in the minor leagues. Not exactly bankable for promotional items.

by Eyebrows on Jun 20, 2011 4:25 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

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