LL Mod Response to Feedback Thread
by Matthew on Mar 8, 2011 7:00 PM PST
in Lookout Landing News
Email
PrintThis is our response to the feedback thread a week or so back. Though both Jeff and I attempted to address the issues in the thread as they were raised, we wanted to have a separate post detailing our feedback to the community's feedback and suggestions. We went through the entire thread for a fresh look and made an attempt to cull and categorize the ideas. The suggestions for new SBN features and the comments about the game threads are not included as both will get their own posts. Below the jump is what we felt to be the major themes.
The idea for more people with moderator privileges has come up internally off and on and while there is certainly merit to the suggestion, neither of us feels it a necessary step at this time. The community at large does a terrific job of policing itself. Frankly, the constant hand-wringing about people ganging up on trolls and the like is a little overwrought. It could be better but it feels like we're trying to improve on a very small margin and we don't think the solution is more sheriffs in town. Rather, more application of common sense and civil courtesy can triumph all on its own.
Another hot-button issue stemmed from concerns about the consistency of rule enforcement. While we are sensitive to the perception that this happens, we do not think it is anywhere near as prevalent as is assumed. Despite calls for specific examples, I have personally seen few and cannot recall any on my own. Please keep in mind that LL's policies and enforcement have changed over the years. What might have been true a year or two ago might no longer be accurate.
Now that doesn't mean Jeff or I are perfectly consistent or omnipresent in all the threads at all time. Nobody is. Things slip through, which is why we make a big push for users to alert us via flags and/or e-mail when situations arise. It also doesn't mean that all enforcement is carried out in the same manner. We respond sometimes publicly in the comments and sometimes privately via warnings/e-mails based on which we feel is the best way to handle the matter. That is not going to change. If you have a concern, our e-mails are always open.
That being said, established posters get the benefit of the doubt because we, and the community, are familiar with their sense of humor and posting style. This is a text-only medium and if you are a new or infrequent commenter, then there is little context for your comment and it will get treated in a more literal sense. That's unavoidable and not something we are interested in remedying by treating everyone like they are unknown. The easy remedy for potential misunderstandings over humor or points is to reply and ask what was meant. Don't jump to an assumption of tone or intent.
Swinging too far to the other side of the familiarity side can be a problem too. Please do not insert yourself into every conversation and subthread. Anyone who makes their presence known so heavily breeds annoyance. And this applies to jumping in joking threads as well. Really consider whether you are adding something new. Quality is much more preferred to quantity. Don't be the equivalent of the super loud person. Be memorable for being funny or insightful, not for the sheer number of comments you post.
A good way to stand out in a bad way is to fill up the screen with images. Hotlinking an image is acceptable, but we require that you put effort into restraining their size. Large pictures hog bandwidth and screen space. They can kill the conversation flow when they take up the whole screen. A reasonable size varies depending on the details of the image, but consider that if the image needs more than, say, 200 pixels of height that you can always post a shrunk-down version with a link to the full size one.* Here is an example of how to shrink down a picture.
*How to do this: use the img tag to generate the HTML for the hotlink, set the height to something like 150 and then highlight the whole tag and use the link button.
We have a hard rule that the maximum is 300 pixels of height. Please do not just make that your default size. You might be amazed how small a picture can be and still get the point across. A line of text is roughly 15 pixels tall and contains roughly 25 words. Using the entire 300 pixel maximum for an image is the same amount of vertical space as roughly 500 words of text. Keep that in mind.
83 comments
|
21 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
So shouldn't images be 600 pixels in heigth?
300 pixels = 500 words, so an image should be 600 pixels. Or are you saying that a picture is only worth 500 words?
by nathaniel dawson on Mar 8, 2011 7:43 PM PST reply actions
Plus a lot of the pictures posted here ain't worth shit
by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 8, 2011 7:48 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I can't believe you haven't found a more diverting hobby yet
you’re in college (?)
by Bearskin Rugburn on Mar 8, 2011 8:10 PM PST up reply actions
Graduate student
Since you asked, here’s a Washington highway shield in British Columbia
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by Corco on Mar 8, 2011 8:14 PM PST up reply actions 12 recs
I have read my comment over and over and I am certain I did not ask
by Bearskin Rugburn on Mar 8, 2011 8:59 PM PST up reply actions 7 recs
Didn't know signatures were so out of fashion. Adjustment made.
Otherwise, I think this can be summed up as ‘be better’. To which I would say (I assume) we all try, but results tend to vary.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Mar 8, 2011 8:03 PM PST reply actions
I don't think I can get used to looking at your comments and not seeing a mountain man.
This is not a signature.
by Kenneth Arthur on Mar 9, 2011 8:54 AM PST up reply actions
I guess I have one bone to pick, and this is more in the sense that I would like everyone's feedback on it more than anything else.
It’s just, well, the treatment of newcomers I suppose. I am not trying to imply that LL is some walled off inaccessible insiders only sort of thing. Far from it. This place is awesome, if for nothing more than because of the incredible mix of delicious high minded factually supported baseball analysis coupled with the resistance to the ad hominem and the expectation that everyone carry the sense not to take things personally.
That said, it seems at times that we forget that these are not universal assumptions of folks wishing to contribute or participate here for the first time, and that the exact schtick, the exact je ne sais quoi here is actually not something immediately evident. To that degree, I often feel bad when somebody with a very short history posts and is immediately dogpiled upon for some faux pas. My natural inclination is to be correcting, sure, but in that context to also be welcoming and inviting. In short, to be simply diplomatic.
I often just feel bad—-call it pity, empathy, or weakness—to do anything less. Maybe I am incorrect in my thinking, but I do feel bad when I see some newcomer treated, while from this community’s perspective fairly, from an outsider’s perspective in a draconian fashion.
By the by, this is in no way to imply I consider myself outside of the realm of the newcomer. But I would be very interested to hear other people’s reaction.
by SeattExPat on Mar 8, 2011 8:48 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Most of the time the reason this place seems unwelcoming is the reaction the new user has to the courteous response.
New User will come in, use chatspeak etc. (even though this is clearly outlined in the rules when they sign up), then someone will calmly say “no chatspeak please” which is a courteous response. It is then the new user that bursts out with hostility, leading ultimately to the idea that we are unwelcoming. Anyone that comes to a community and acts like they belong already doesn’t necessarily deserve non-stop courteous treatment just because they’re new. It’s limited to those that simply make a mistake, not those that explode with rage when corrected nicely.
Also, this place as a community intensely dislikes flaws in logic. Correcting the terrible logic of others may seem discourteous, but I don’t believe it is. Wrong assumptions are still wrong assumptions, and discussing those wrong assumptions often gives the appearance of hostility without actually being hostile.
Finally, being inviting to new users is limited to those users that are trying to be invited. Often new users purposely try to show off their intellectual dominance (read:stubbornness) immediately before they have fit in, and that will never be accepted by anyone. It is not accepted on other websites either, the difference is that other websites are filled with idiots so the petulant new user often has idiot users on their side. This makes them seem inviting, but only because they share the same serious flaws.
I read almost every thread. I rarely notice a new user get treated poorly without clearly bringing that treatment on themselves, with the exception of logical flaws, which should be corrected no matter how hostile it seems.
...and now I'm here
by CapSea on Mar 8, 2011 8:58 PM PST up reply actions 12 recs
No one from Halos Heaven will ever be allowed in a MENSA meeting.
Most communities have an uninviting aspect. The difference is that most online communities are home to the same people we’d prefer to keep out. Try bringing intellectual discussion to HH or BCB and they’ll kick you out too. The nature of any online community is to accept the most like-minded people, and it just happens that most communities choose those with lowest common denominator intelligence. It’s a lot easier to find those people.
...and now I'm here
im going to call bullshit on this.
Matt Welch writes there and he is the editor of Reason magazine. It’s kind of ridiculous to think LL is a salon of higher thinking and we are vastly superior to others
by Ballard Erik on Mar 9, 2011 11:04 AM PST via mobile up reply actions 6 recs
Yeah.
As much as that blog sucks, calling everyone that writes or posts there an idiot is kind of over the line.
by Aaron Campeau on Mar 9, 2011 11:11 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Well overall, LL is vastly superior to many others
but yeah, there are jewels and turds everywhere.
by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 9, 2011 11:16 AM PST up reply actions
i much prefer LL.
Stupid mobile phone.
by Ballard Erik on Mar 9, 2011 11:29 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Well I am not sure who that is or which blog you're talking about.
But okay! Nevermind then. I trust you. All I know is that people have been harassed or banned for trying to bring up various advanced stats on both.
...and now I'm here
by CapSea on Mar 9, 2011 8:31 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
To be fair he did say it's kind of ridiculous
So it’s not as if it’s completely ridiculous, or outlandishly ridiculous. So he did somewhat agree with you
I'm willing to accept I may be wrong about this.
...and now I'm here
The way I see it, people should treat each other as they would in person
If I walk into a stranger’s house and open up the beer fridge and start drinking and rearranging the furniture, I’m liable to get my ass kicked, just as a new poster who comes in thinking he owns the place should be liable to get chastisized for it. On the flip side, if a stranger comes into my house and behaves appropriately, I should be welcoming and offer a beer and the good recliner.
LL isn’t for everyone, nor does it need to be, nor is there any reason for that to be the case. There are plenty of other places to discuss Mariners baseball.
If everybody just pretended that LL was the real world before doing anything, things would get along great. I do think the majority of the community is really, really good at that, but newcomers need to respect that this place is more like the real world than the rest of the internet and they need to act that way.
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by Corco on Mar 8, 2011 9:11 PM PST up reply actions 23 recs
Coincidentally enough,
you will see much the same analogy used soon in an upcoming post. It’s an apt one. Well put.
CORCO FOR MODERATOR!
I write for Stumptown Footy, SB Nation's Portland Timbers blog.
by thehemogoblin on Mar 8, 2011 9:17 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with pretty much everything you are saying, but I wonder at what point does it become counter productive when correcting people to do so at any costs as it were..
Dawg! He put da team on his back!
You mean with logical flaws?
On most websites it doesn’t make sense. At this website it does because those that frequently provide statements with logical flaws are either going to not come back or be banned. Forcing people to make logical comments seems fine with me, as does correcting their flaws, since even if the outcome doesn’t change their mind, it will still probably lead to the desired result: Shutting up, leaving, or making logical arguments.
At least that’s my thought on it. I don’t know how others feel.
...and now I'm here
I agree pretty strongly.
I’m not a Mariners fan, not in any real way. I come to LL because of the strength of the community and to me an important part of that is respecting and employing REASON.
I couldn’t be more in favor of respecting and promoting well reasoned arguments. And part of that is speaking up when something is poorly reasoned.
Oh, I agree! I just think there's a point where correcting someone stops being productive when it becomes overly argumentative.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that people can be right, but still be dicks.
Dawg! He put da team on his back!
by JAH on Mar 9, 2011 9:33 PM PST up reply actions
I think the point you are missing is that it is when people who are wrong are being dicks that a thread becomes overly argumentative.
If a poster becomes defensive, or worse, offensive when it is pointed out that they are wrong about something that things get out of control.
A lot of people read LL without commenting.
Because of the format of comment threads, commenters are contributing to what people read and learn from LL. Part of correcting faulty assertions is making sure that the information provided to everyone reading LL is correct.
To be entirely honest I don't see where this idea that newcomers are regularly mistreated comes from.
We have a lot of newcomers that are immediately accepted into the LL community. Just today in the off topic thread a new poster introduced himself and asked a question to the group; he was immediately greeted by two reguLLars and a whole slew of people helped answer his question. His entire introduction went swimmingly.
Then there are those newcomers who introduce themselves with a FanPost that doesn’t fit reguLLations, or they do something like brashly proclaim their allegiance to RBI. This seems to happen every week or two. When it occurs, what happens next is almost like clockwork: a well established member of the community, maybe pdb or Aaron Campeau, will write a friendly reply explaining the guidelines to FanPosts (or that we tend not to use counting stats like RBI, etc.). Newcomers either then take the message to heart and work on becoming better posters, or – and I think this is what we tend to notice, because of the scene it causes – they get defensive, argue, blow up, and either leave in a huff or think they got banned because their post was hidden or they were put in the box.
All in all, I believe we treat newcomers pretty well. In fact, I’d say I read more about how LLers allegedly dog pile than I see actual dog piling.
by katal on Mar 8, 2011 9:35 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
A few years ago, the community decided that introducing yourself in an offtop was a bad idea -
it was butting into a conversation between friends/acquaintances. At this point, I’m thinking it’s an infinitely better way to introduce yourself than in a gamethread. LL has a lot of quirks which all of the regulars enjoy, but there is an entirely different set of rules in gamethreads, and even I can’t hope to know/understand them all. I’d guess that most of the problems occur in gamethreads and in FanPosts – so newbies, why not do what the newcomer katal mentioned did and start off in an offtop (hopefully with a decent question and not a one word post).
Just a small thing I wanted to add from an every article reader but infrequent commentor:
Personally, I have never been reprimanded or corrected for anything that I did not absolutely deserve. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone get “yelled at” for an innocent mistake. I understand the process of letting go of false assumptions about baseball is a hard thing to do, but it is necessary to contribute to the conversation here, and I absolutely agree with CapSea that sometimes swallowing your pride is necessary when you are corrected. No one likes to be wrong. 99% of the time I see people being dog-piled in is a direct result of something they have done that is directly outlined in either the style guide or commenting guidelines. I know Matthew and Jeff have said it before, but reading those two posts, along with lurking and a little sabermetric background (which can also be found here!), can save you a ton of grief, and are absolute musts if you want to post.
Well put
Also not everybody is a comedian and not everybody needs to be a comedian in order to post here, despite what you might think from seeing all the jokes some of the regulars tell. There are also plenty of other regulars who hang out here without telling a joke every time they post and they do just fine. In fact they serve an important role in both educating people with non-joke content and also in establishing comedic timing and jumping off points for humor.
If you are going to try to constantly tell jokes (which for most people is not recommended), you need to keep in mind that LL has a specific captive audience with specific tastes, and if you don’t understand those tastes but just go on telling the jokes you personally think are funny because you’re new or something and are thus oblivious to LL’s sense of humor you might fall out of favor rather quickly. The only way you’re going to learn what those tastes are is to spend time reading and listening to community criticisms.
Just not telling bad jokes is preferable to repeated failures to be funny when we have thousands of people commenting because it can quickly get out of hand and derail a thread. When people pick on your comments for being unfunny they are not permanently labeling you as unfunny or an outcast because people can and do get better at posting.. Contrary to popular claims of dickishness on our part, I think it takes a rare breed of douche to permanently ostracize yourself from this community, but that doesn’t mean we’re going to put up with the same type of posting behavior you can get away with elsewhere.
From what I have seen
Newcomers to the site get out of it what they put into it. If you come in learn the lay of the land, and are respectful then you are welcomed with open arms. When you come in being hostile not having read the rules and feeling a false sense of entitlement and being a general prick you get treated like how you were acting.
I don’t always post a lot here anymore, but I do read just about everything on this site. It is my first site I visit concerning baseball. Jeff, Mathew and many of the regulars really know what they are talking about. You can make a comment disagreeing with them but if it is done respectably and in a well thought out manner nobody seems to try and jump at you calling you a moron or anything like that.
The high standards that are set on this site for the main posts and fan posts are one of the things I love about this site. One only has to ready the comments on any yahoo story or ESPN board to realize what a true treasure having something like LL is.
I have even removed my beloved Hunter S. Thompson quote signature out of respect and the wishes of the LL leadership.
Here is to hoping for another great year on LL for this upcoming season.
by wadswerth on Mar 8, 2011 10:07 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
That's along the lines of what I said earlier:
If you make a statement of disagreement you better damn well be ready to present some evidence in your favor. Unless you are making a repeated assumption that is factually incorrect, you aren’t going to get chewed out. I hope that people aren’t resistant to challenge assumptions or other things because that often breeds the most interesting conversation.
The voluntary acquiescence of sig lines is a beautiful thing to behold
I love the hell out of HST but don’t want to read the same quote every time a poster says something. And I can’t help but read it.
by lemonverbena on Mar 9, 2011 12:29 PM PST up reply actions
I like people's pithy quotes :(
Dawg! He put da team on his back!
by JAH on Mar 9, 2011 9:39 PM PST up reply actions
I'm a frequent reader, but I hope to comment more often.
I immediately deleted my signature after reading this post. Quite frankly I only created one in the first place because I thought it was desired. I think new posters like myself really appreciate it when certain rules or policies are clearly laid out.
That being said, after reading through some recent game threads, new posters absolutely need to have a read through of LL’s rules list. Otherwise they are obviously asking for trouble.
unpossible, so far as I know
But the avatars are not an issue really. It is easy to disable them entirely.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Mar 9, 2011 7:59 AM PST up reply actions
I always forget SBNation has avatars
until I visit a SBN blog I haven’t signed up for or whatever and they stare me in the face.
To improve, they should try to become the musical southern cal of the west. - bRuins Nation poster on the Stanford band.
Same here.
Though I did upload an avatar at one point because I didn’t like being associated with the default. That red star makes me look like a communist.
Or Wonder Woman.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on Mar 9, 2011 10:14 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Not possible to delete as far as I can tell, but if you save and upload this file:
http://cdn2.sbnation.com/images/placeholders/profile/large.v777cf8a.gif
It’ll look like you have the default avatar.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
I find better treatment for newcomers here than other places
Other sites seem to have the attitude if you don’t agree with us, don’t bother to post, and if you do, we are going to moderate you to death…
I was going to post the same thing.
Some of the other “local” SBN blogs have a much more aggressive mob mentality. While I have not been involved in the game threads I don’t really get the impression that there is a problem here. I do however wish there were more pictures of random street signs.
I happen to enjoy creative signatures.
by The Manchild on Mar 9, 2011 10:35 AM PST up reply actions
Corco's websites are in his profile.
I write for Stumptown Footy, SB Nation's Portland Timbers blog.
by thehemogoblin on Mar 9, 2011 10:47 AM PST up reply actions
It's the culture...
I come here and read the articles daily, and occasionally I peek into the comments and make a comment or two of my own. I’d comment more, but it’s a lot like being dragged off to a boisterous party by your wife where she knows everyone and you know her, and that is it. You end up sitting quietly, listening in on the conversations, wanting to make a comment, but you hold off because you don’t want to look stupid or are afraid that your comment will be met with scorn and derision.
LL isn’t a closed culture, but it is very tight-knit and has an accepted form of discourse.
by Lonnie on Mar 9, 2011 8:44 AM PST reply actions 5 recs
That's me except I don't bother listening in on the conversations
Everybody is of course entitled to do what he or she wants, but having read a good amount of your writing elsewhere I don’t think you need to be worried about looking stupid.
by Jeff Sullivan on Mar 9, 2011 9:23 AM PST up reply actions
This is the kind of boat I feel I'm in too.
It’s not a bad thing by any means, but I often feel that if I say something it’s just more or less getting in the way of a conversation of the regulars. Usually when I comment it’s to pick the brain of someone who knows a lot more about baseball and the Mariners than I do.
by SgtSasquatch on Mar 9, 2011 11:52 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I just always think about the relevancy of what I want to post.
As a reader of almost every article here (and its comments), I feel like if I don’t have anything of importance to contribute, there’s not much point in commenting. If I’m going to contribute, it might as well advance the conversation on the site (as others do superbly), not just commenting for sake of commenting
I read the comments on this site for months before saying anything
When I did start to comment I did very much the same thing you did for a while and now look at me, the Three time winner of the LL ROY! Dreams do come true, SgtSasquatch, you just have to reach out and grab them!
by Dewey N on Mar 9, 2011 3:18 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
If you know your wife is going to take you to a party with the same people on a regular basis
then it might be worth your while to get to know some of those people and join their conversations.
I read often and rarely comment, but not because I think this is an intimidating place to participate. I did feel that way at first but the the longer I lurked the more I realized that the people that feel this way are probably the people that didn’t take time to get a feel for the community. I think that is the key, taking your time and learning the ropes.
It's not so much intimidation...
… as it is just an overall feeling that newbie intrusions aren’t welcome. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
I feel a bit the same.
LL has a very strong culture, and it’s not one that is easy to just jump in to. And you may not completely fit it. I don’t entirely (partly because I’m not a serious Mariners fan), and so.. I read and enjoy.
I think part of keeping a community strong and good can involve being a bit insular. And that’s ok. Communities should be welcoming, but that shouldn’t extend in to constantly changing to make new people feel more at home. Change will come with time, but the best part of LL is the character of the community.
I was a member of an excellent gaming community, that started out as a small group of friends and grew, initially very slowly. Anyone could play with us, but to be a member, a 75% majority of the members had to vote you in, after a trial period. When I joined, that process was taken seriously and we had about 25 members. A few years later, we had 80… And we were becoming ever more focused on adding members. And the voting standards were dramatically reduced. As a result, we lost our identity.
It used to feel like a room full of friends, and others in the community were just friends you hadn’t met yet.. And by being too focused on being accepting, it gradually lost everything about it that made it unique and good.
So I say to you: Be insular! Be strange and hard to understand, because you certainly are. Be welcoming, but not unconditionally accepting – this place is unique and should stay that way!
As a resident lurker
Over the last year or so, I think the culture here is pretty reasonable. CapSea hit it on the head – I can’t remember any newcomer’s post that was ridiculed without good reason. It’s one of the reasons I rarely, if ever, post – if I don’t have something that adds to the conversation, then putting it in this box and hitting post is a complete waste of time on any side of it. Usually, any point I want to make has been made, and in no way, shape, or form am I as clever as the regulars here, so lurking and enjoying the insight and humor is how I (and I’d be willing to bet others) enjoy LL.
Readability versus Commenting Ease
More rules make commenting more difficult while making reading less difficult.
I wish I had a graph with “no-rules, zero readability” and “infinite rules, no thread” on opposite ends of one axis with “quality of thread” on the other axis. That way I could illustrate how well I think LL oversees the creation of countless, interesting, readable threads.
I think the rules and moderation foster a good community too.
Long-time lurker here...
… and I signed up to say that I really appreciate the job you guys do in policing the comment areas. It’s really nice when I can find good content in the comment areas as well as in the main posts.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- The Juice: Nelson Cruz matches career high eight RBIs, Pujols stays hot in Seattle
- Benches clear at Fenway as Red Sox-Rays rivalry heats up
- Keeping good company: Albert Pujols becomes fourth-youngest player to hit 450 home runs
- Giancarlo Stanton misses cutoff man, and Logan Morrison is thankful he did (Video)
- Snoop Dogg delivers memorable first pitch at U.S. Cellular Field
