Jamie Moyer and Cheating Death
I remember where I was when I learned that Jamie Moyer had been traded to the Phillies. It was two in the afternoon, and I was sitting in my car waiting for someone to show up and let me look at a potential house for rent. A lazy, stale August wind stirred sticky heat across pavement. Unseen robins croaked monotone birdsongs. The neighborhood was empty and the world felt bereft of promise.
I ended up spending a year in that house, which, like the 2007 Mariners, was surprisingly pleasant but not particularly memorable. My anger at the Jamie Moyer trade, however, remained. The next morning I went on a Rob Neyer chat to vent my frustrations, and he told me the same thing everyone else did: Moyer would be a free agent. He’s 43 years old. The Mariners should be happy they got anything for him at all. This is not to criticize Neyer: the man is human, and no human could have foreseen the entirety that is the Jamie Moyer Experience. But a quick look at the numbers reveals how awful this trade was. Jamie Moyer, 2006-present:
| GS | W | L | IP | K/9 | ERA | WAR |
| 118 | 56 | 40 | 720.2 | 5.48 | 4.55 | 5.6 |
As far as the returns: Andy Baldwin is 28 and still hasn’t reached the majors, languishing in Tacoma for three consecutive years. He’s a Rochester Red Wing now, though this is perhaps not how he refers to himself at parties. Andrew Barb underwent both elbow and knee surgery, and lasted one year in the Mariners organization; he spent 2010 in the independent Northern League.
Not even the argument of a salary dump can be made in Bavasi’s favor with this move: according to FanGraphs, Moyer’s 5.6 wins have been worth $24 million dollars over the last four and a half years. His salary has been $27 million, a number that ignores ballpark effects (read: the spending habits of the Phillies). To make matters even worse was the fact that Moyer’s departure created a hole in the rotation, one that Bavasi felt obligated to fill by one Horacio Ramirez. It’s the trade that keeps on giving.
But let’s move backward from the facts to the speculation for a moment; it’s generally unfair to judge a GM using four years of hindsight. At the time, everyone thought the trade was fine. Bad team, moveable asset, flip for spare change, right? It was a business move, a baseball move. But this move is based on several assumptions, and these assumptions could have been challenged even at the time. They were:
- Jamie Moyer was too old to succeed. We have evidence now that this wasn’t true, but more importantly, we didn’t have evidence at the time to prove that it was. At 43 years of age, there haven’t been a lot of pitchers like Jamie Moyer. In his nine full seasons as a Mariner, Moyer started 32 games a season. Pitchers aren’t like hitters. They often don’t simply decline; they get hurt. We’ve seen that now, with Moyer, at age 48; we weren’t seeing it at 43.
- Jamie Moyer was replaceable. Mariners GM Bill Bavasi learned his mistake on this one in a hurry. Often fans think they could be general managers, and this is because sometimes, general managers sound like fans. Bavasi, returning from the winter meetings next year, sounded like a beaten man. "This was one of the more miserable winter meetings I’ve ever been to," Bill admitted, in one of his humanizing asides. "Between the lack of activity and the volcanic (free agent) market, it was tough." On a team that won 88 games, fourth and fifth starters for the Mariners threw 367.1 innings of 6.49 ERA baseball.
- Jamie Moyer was a free agent. This is true, but Moyer never made threats about playing the market, never complained about salary. He’d played here for ten years, his family lived here, his painful auto glass commercials were filmed here. After being traded to the Phillies, he happily and quickly signed a fair contract with them. Why wouldn’t he have done that here, with the team he had so many memories, where he salvaged his career?
- The Mariners were rebuilding. Well, we hoped they were at the time, since 2006 didn’t offer much in the way of hope. But then 2007 came around, and Bill Bavasi was absolutely certain he had a contending team. This is a criticism targeted less at the trade itself and more about the general strategy with which this trade failed to align. After handing away Moyer, Bavasi ended up signing Jeff Weaver and Jose Guillen, trading for Ramirez and Jose Vidro, and looking painfully like a guy drawing dead in a poker game. Which, of course, he was.
- Then there’s the matter of legacy. I know Seattle fans are often accused, rightly, of over-sentimentality. We clutch onto our fading superstars like kids grab their mother’s leg on the first day of kindergarten. And this is especially true for the Mariners… with hitters. Here’s a list of starting pitchers who retired as a Mariner, among the top 50 leaders in games started for the team:
| Name | Final Year | GS | Rank | ERA+ | WAR |
| Jim Beattie | 1986 | 147 | #8 | 101 | 16.5 |
| Chris Bosio | 1996 | 83 | #22 | 107 | 7.1 |
| Brian Holman | 1991 | 80 | #24 | 108 | 8.0 |
| Dick Pole | 1978 | 42 | #37 | 71 | 0 |
| Rob Dressler | 1980 | 25 | #49 | 98 | 3.1 |
Moyer’s name would have made a fine addition to the top of that list.
In the end, Jamie Moyer represents the actuary’s dilemma: just because something is bound to happen, it doesn’t mean that it’s likely to happen at any given point. A good comparison for Jamie Moyer’s career is death. The average life expectancy for the American male in 2006 was around 75 years old. However, that doesn’t make it likely that someone will die at exactly age 75; in fact, the chance of dying between the ages of 75 and 76 are only 4.1%. The age at which death becomes a fifty-fifty chance is a given year doesn’t happen until you turn 106. (Women still have the upper hand; they get to wait until 107.)
Moyer is the same way. It’s very easy to say that pitchers, especially non-knuckleballers, don’t pitch until they’re 44. And for any given prospect, that prediction is almost certainly correct. But if that prospect lasts to the age of 43, those odds change. And in light of this, I believe Moyer’s odds of being a good pitcher in a Mariners uniform, even in 2006, were far greater than the chances that either of the Andrews, Baldwin and Barb, had of being a good pitcher ever.
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It was also a chance to get Moyer into the playoffs
I highly doubt that trade went down without Moyer wanting it to happen (in fact, as a 10-5 player he had to consent).
One thing that Bavasi was good at was finding guys who didn’t have a place/could fit better elsewhere a place to go (see Torrealba, Yorvit)- and I think this was more one of those cases.
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by Corco on Mar 7, 2011 4:07 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I think there's truth to this.
Though this Seattle Times article suggests Moyer was okay with the trade because the Phillies were willing to talk contract extension. If the Mariners wanted to resign him, they probably would have held onto him.
You also forgot Soriano, Rafael in your list of players who could fit in elsewhere and were dumped for piles of human garbage.
Soriano wasn't a good one
It was usually more minor players for which we received nothing or not much- Terry Mulholland, Greg Norton, Jolbert Cabrera, Dave Hansen, Pat Borders etc etc please don’t make me rack my brain anymore
Moyer was definitely the best player traded with the sole purpose of finding him a shinier home, but I don’t feel too bad about that one.
I really don’t see that trade as having been about getting value back- if Moyer didn’t want to go, he wouldn’t have gone. Bavasi sucked on the acquisition/development, but by all accounts he was really good to players and I see this being about him finding Moyer a chance to play meaningful baseball more than about him trying to dump a longstanding franchise icon with deep Seattle roots for nothing.
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
I agree with a lot of what you're saying.
And let there be no doubt: Bill Bavasi is a hell of a guy.
The trouble lies not in his magnanimity, but in the original assumption that spurred it: the idea that Moyer didn’t have a place in Seattle, that he had no value to us. And Bavasi certainly wasn’t alone on this; there were lots of people who thought the tank was empty.
Did Moyer want to go? In the Times article yuniform posted, he certainly doesn’t seem to mind. He wanted a contract extension, and it was a price Philadelphia was willing to pay (and we weren’t). But in the end, it wasn’t his choice to make; it was ours. The quote that sticks out most to me from that article is this one:
“I’d love to tell you that taking care of Jamie was a high priority,” Bavasi said. “It wasn’t. Our job is to take care of the Seattle Mariners, so the fact that he’s getting to go to a club like Philadelphia, a couple of games back in the wild card, is great. We are really happy for him. But we always take care of ourselves.”
I know we’re all used to GMs lying through their teeth, so take the quote with however many grains of salt you like. Bavasi claims he made the trade to make the team better. I don’t think it did, even in terms of probability. But if he did make the trade for Moyer’s sake, the deeper question becomes whether it’s okay for a ballclub, like any corporation, to act in a manner that reduces its chances of success. It’s a tough question, and it deserves its own blog post, I think.
by Patrick Dubuque on Mar 7, 2011 7:03 PM PST up reply actions
I think there is legitimate interest for both parties to phrase it exactly the way they did
Moyer not “demanding” a trade left open the possibility of him returning to Seattle without alienating the fanbase, whereas Bavasi managed to phrase it so that we’re both doing Moyer a favor and restocking the farm system, which even if not the case is definitely the right thing to say
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
If you rephrase it with "Moyer wanted to pitch for a contender so we traded him for some shiny turds"
that makes both Moyer and the organization look bad
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by Corco on Mar 7, 2011 7:13 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Jamie Moyer was always one of my favorite players when he played in Seattle.
The UFC is a place where they will pay you tens of thousands of dollars for you to fight but only 1 dollar for your soul. The only thing that gives orders in this world is "Balls" Scarface.
by communication-breakdown on Mar 9, 2011 12:32 PM PST reply actions
I know some people that know Jamie personally...
His parents live near Philadelphia and he may have come to Philadelphia to end his career regardless.
That's certainly possible
and I don’t want to discount that possibility. My argument is that even the possibility of Moyer wanting to come back and being able to pitch well was much greater than the possibility that Baldwin or Barb would turn into anything. But there are some people who were bigger Baldwin supporters than I was.
by Patrick Dubuque on Mar 14, 2011 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Gotcha
While Bard and Baldwin amounted to nothing, getting anything of value back for Moyer at that point was surprising to most to say the least. I think most people would have said Baldwin and Bard would have more impact since the trade than Moyer as it seemed Moyer would be retiring. Even organizational depth has value, while Moyer retiring or leaving via Free Agency had none.
All in all, still have to love Jamie and I wouldn’t be opposed to the M’s giving him a shot next season if Philly doesn’t.
It was a great trade
because it ended up with Moyer getting a ring. Made me happy.

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