Biomechanics and Me?
by Kyle Boddy on Mar 21, 2011 11:53 AM PDT
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PrintOn August 8th, 2008, Graham made an excellent post titled Biomechanics and You. It was aimed - more or less - at amateur "biomechanical" analysis done by writers like... well, me.
The point is really that I'm not convinced we can just take all the injury predictions that analysts are throwing up online at face value. I don't think I could come anywhere near injury predictions within the next few years, and I'm supposed to be an expert on it. Maybe I'm just stupid, but I'd say it's more likely that we should all be taking commentary on pitching mechanics and their relationship to injury with a boulder of salt.
I enjoyed the article and even linked to it on my now-defunct SB Nation blog, Driveline Mechanics. A healthy dose of skepticism is a very good thing. I tried to make it clear that my thoughts on pitching mechanics were unscientific thoughts with what I thought were interesting theories about pitching based on my knowledge of exercise science and kinesiology. However, that didn't stop a lot of people from taking my word as gospel (despite repeated statements from me spelling out the opposite), and I grew uncomfortable with my blog and the fuzzy mission statement that came with it. So, I stopped blogging, and eventually the blog was moved offline by SBN superiors.
Even prior to Graham's post, I had been working on building a low-cost biomechanical analysis laboratory in Seattle. For those unaware, high-speed cameras were basically unavailable at reasonable price points in 2008 until the Casio Exilim EX-F1 came out for $1000. Even then, these cameras weren't enough to do the advanced biomechanical analysis required to even shine a light on the "mechanics" of throwing a baseball. It would require multiple cameras, off-the-shelf software that could solve for kinematics/kinetics (and provide a digitization solution), custom algorithms that could solve the synchronization issue between these consumer-grade cameras (commercial ones do this automatically), and a precisely measured control object.
Commercial packages are available, but cost $15-17k for a two-camera setup that is not sufficient for working with movements that occur in all three planes so rapidly - like baseball pitching. You're looking at $25-30k at the bare minimum with off-the-shelf packages, plus customization and training.
Well, I don't have that kind of money, so I took the former route. For the last three years, I've been developing a low-cost solution with a research assistant from the University of Washington (plus two more Mathematics and Kinesiology interns/assistants from local schools on the way). Matthew Wagshol and I have been spending much of our free time scouring texts from the UW library, doing tons of trial filming (most of it fruitless), and building weird PVC structures inside the Home Depot on Aurora Ave:
We managed to assemble this thing at our Lake City facility. We precisely measured it, taking about 6 hours to do so. And... we had to cut it down and remeasure it a few weeks later because it was too large.
We started filming trials using the control object and two cameras as a test. And... we got some pretty interesting results that matched the commercial labs out there!
via i.imgur.com
Now, it's not perfect, but we're getting closer with every trial we shoot. We've added a third camera and some better processes on how to digitize these files in our software. (Think 1 click on each body segment per frame, 22 body segments, 120 frames per video, 3 cameras...) And kinematic values like Maximum Shoulder External Rotation Angular Velocity and solving for Maximum Shoulder Horizontal Abduction/Adduction static values has been done. Kinetics are up next - the joint loads on the shoulder and elbow, specifically. This poses another set of interesting problems, but I'm already going on and on about an esoteric subject.
Before I made this post, I emailed Jeff to see if the readers might find this type of stuff interesting - and based on the popularity of Graham's post (and my former blog), it seems like there is some interest. So, I wanted to share with everyone what work I've been doing that you could actually call biomechanical analysis. No, I don't have an undergraduate degree in kinesiology, biomechanics, or even a hard science degree (I studied Computer Science and Economics), but I've read at least 10 full academic texts on biomechanics/kinesiology and more research papers on the subject that I care to count (at least 50, probably far more). I've talked to the subject matter experts (Dr. Murray Maitland and Dr. Kevin McQuade at the University of Washington's Human Motion Analysis Laboratory, Dr. Glenn Fleisig and Dave Fortenbaugh at American Sports Medicine Institute, and various other biomechanists/kinesiologists out there) to learn more about the industry and the best practices for performing research. My research assistant worked in the University of Florida's biomechanics lab, so he brings some practical experience with him.
But the truth is that what we're doing is much more difficult than buying a commercial product and simply doing some basic research. We're trying to bring true three-dimensional biomechanical analysis services to the public at low costs - and not just the service, but the product itself. Coaches and trainers out there should have access to this valuable technology, and at its current price point, it is simply impossible to afford. Our dream is to set up a reliable laboratory for under $1,000, and I strongly believe this is possible given the plunge in prices for consumer-grade high-speed cameras (you can get the Casio Exilim EX-F10 for $100 today).
And we want people to get excited about it. We're operating at a huge loss - which is fine - and we don't expect to get rich off this. But it's something that's always interested me, dating back to my arm injuries and pain as a youth athlete with no real answers to it. So if you're in the Seattle area and want to drop by to check it out, please shoot me an email (kyle@drivelinebaseball.com). We're open most weekday nights and almost anytime on the weekends, and we'd love to show you around. It's just the basement of a warehouse with a few batting cages and a training facility, but it's our home - or it might as well be, given how much time I spend there.
Thanks. I'd love to answer any questions or comments you might have.
EDIT: Interestingly enough, the linked post about Tim Tebow's work in a lab at UF is the same lab Matthew worked at.
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This looks pretty neat, especially for a non-commerical/lab operation
one question though – even if we’re able to solve for and understand the various stresses of given pitching mechanics, how much closer does that get us to understanding injury? Since each person’s body handles physical stresses in different ways, is the goal more to identify risk factors than actually predict injury down the road?
Good question.
On the global question of “how much closer does that get us to understanding injury,” I think that is tough to tell. However, I would generally guess that it won’t have a major impact, as this is a very individualized thing (as you noted). Injuries do not happen due to improper force application (mechanics) alone, or occasionally at all! Lack of fitness (strength, endurance, whatever) is often a huge problem.
I believe the “goal” is more to identify future risk factors, yes.
Driveline Baseball - Advanced Training for the Baseball Athlete (located in Seattle, WA)
*Now* you supply a link to your site, and I have stuff to read to see if any answer my questions (or raise others).
You might want to put that link up top so people can see other stuff you’ve written, if they were so inclined.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
Fair enough.
I didn’t want to look self-promotional, which is why I left it out of the main post.
We do planar biomechanical analysis (two-dimensional) which you can find on the site, and we’ll be making that open source in the next month or two. There are companies that charge you upwards of $400 for the service of applying a protractor to a screen using software like Dartfish or Kinovea; we want to detail how the layperson can do this at their own home (or at least know what they are buying).
Driveline Baseball - Advanced Training for the Baseball Athlete (located in Seattle, WA)
I'm not saying you have to, now that it's pointed out down here.
I think most people that read this site tend to go through the comments as well, especially for non-front paged material.
Either way, I have to commend you for putting yourself up on the podium again for people to possibly throw things at you. This community was probably the harshest on you out of all of SBN, and you wouldn’t have been blamed for leaving it in your rear view.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
On harshness:
MGL may have said it best:
"That doesn’t mean that I am going to change the same tone I have been using for 30 years. What the hell is the difference? If you guys can’t separate tone from substance, that is your problem not mine. Stop being such whiners about tone." –MGL
Even so, it does no good to surround yourself with people who agree with you or mildly disagree. Ph. D. panels are noted for their extremity when reviewing theses for the sake of completeness and accuracy. Or so I’m told, anyway.
An unwillingness to solicit (valid) criticism from your harshest detractors isn’t an honorable trait. And I think the criticism that you guys have to offer is plenty valid (i.e. on topic). I have an open enough mind these days to either defend my product/service or incorporate some concepts of the criticism to help make the product/service better.
Driveline Baseball - Advanced Training for the Baseball Athlete (located in Seattle, WA)
by Kyle Boddy on Mar 21, 2011 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 6 recs
Additionally:
The most helpful people throughout the process have been people with NO experience whatsoever. Your everyday person who looks at things from a “systems analysis” POV, for example – engineers, business intelligence people, and programmers, for example. The ability to see the thing as an abstract system and point out logistical holes without even knowing what “angular velocity” is can help a great deal.
Driveline Baseball - Advanced Training for the Baseball Athlete (located in Seattle, WA)
What is the identification of risk factors going to do anyway?
I write for Stumptown Footy, SB Nation's Portland Timbers blog.
by thehemogoblin on Mar 21, 2011 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions
A great deal of things!
By giving a pitcher a biomechanical report that shows values that correlate with injury, you can instruct them in how they can make mechanical changes in hopes of reducing or eliminating the “red flags.” ASMI already keeps a database of similar values and does this type of work, though it is mostly closed-source (with a few exceptions).
Driveline Baseball - Advanced Training for the Baseball Athlete (located in Seattle, WA)
I see the "how". But where's the "why" and the "what"?
What can you learn with this setup that will provide a service to a person? What kind of service would you be providing? What’s your end game?
It seemed to me that you’d already made a lot of decisions on what’s good or bad, and weren’t really in a research as opposed to an application mode (from your writings on DLM). Would you consider this an accurate assessment, and has your focus changed at all?
Talking as a detractor of things you’ve said on DLM and a general skeptic of a lot of the theories that you’ve used in the past, I would really like to see more about the motivations and the reasonings behind your decisions and thoughts once you get going, and how you think this could help people.
That all being said, I am looking forward to any information you pass along and hope to hear both the answers to any questions you feel like responding to as well as future updates to your endeavor.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
To this I would only add one thing:
Kyle, when you publish your work, you need to repeatedly make absolutely clear that you are not a scientist, and are only a layperson who has a strong interest in this subject. There is a huge difference, and it will help people be more open to what you’re doing.
Surprisingly, I disagree.
If he is doing things from an “application” standpoint, there shouldn’t really be any mention of science, and from what I remember reading at DLM, he tended to stay away from that designation.
On the other hand, if he is doing research in a way that could be recognized as science, then I’m all for calling it such. If he has a mound of data at the end of a day that proves something concrete, or at least points heavily towards a theory, that’s as much science as science gets, no matter who it comes from.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
by Faux on Mar 21, 2011 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think either way...
…I’ll just publish the data and let others call it what they want. I’m going to try and avoid labels altogether. :)
Driveline Baseball - Advanced Training for the Baseball Athlete (located in Seattle, WA)
Exactly.
If you refer to the past research, anchor your observations in solid ways, make it so that they can be replicated, there’s no reason NOT to go forward with hypotheses and speculation.
Science is a method. If you fulfill the method, you’re doing science.
by rtang on Mar 22, 2011 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Excellent point(s)
Sigh, I had a long response to this and lost it. Let’s try this again.
It seemed to me that you’d already made a lot of decisions on what’s good or bad, and weren’t really in a research as opposed to an application mode (from your writings on DLM). Would you consider this an accurate assessment, and has your focus changed at all?
I would absolutely agree with this assessment of my personality circa 2007-2008. After reading more about semi-related topics (digital physics and neural networking; Feynman’s mindset and research resonated with me highly), I now understand that what I was doing before is nothing more than a bad application of confirmation bias.
We must collect the data to see if it helps mitigate injury risk while maximizing performance (and anecdotally, I believe we have done this, but it is far from a major conclusion) with an open mind. Let the data speak for itself.
We can correlate kinematics and kinetics based on certain mechanical teachings, and I think this has a lot of value. But I think looking at it from a purely application-based POV is wrong, as you pointed out.
Driveline Baseball - Advanced Training for the Baseball Athlete (located in Seattle, WA)
Excellent. I don't understand most of what you will be doing, but maybe in the next month or so I'll see about a visit.
You’re not that far away from me. Try the Bareshtook cookies at Minoo Bakery on 125th and Lake City. It’s pretty incredible.
...and now I'm here
Will do.
I live on 86th and Lake City (right next to my facility, actually), so I’ll be sure to do that.
Driveline Baseball - Advanced Training for the Baseball Athlete (located in Seattle, WA)
Nice
I’m really looking forward to seeing what sort of results you’re going to get when everything is properly calibrated. I’m also interested in how you solve the pathing problem for joint loads. I’ll stop by to check the lab out the next time I’m in Seattle and have some free time.
As I said to you in email
I will try to arrange for a trial filming when you’re in town. Given a bit of advance notice, I doubt this will be a problem. I look forward to it as well.
Driveline Baseball - Advanced Training for the Baseball Athlete (located in Seattle, WA)
It surprises me that Casio are really the only ones with consumer grade high-speed cameras on the market.
That said, I do love my FH25 and I do hope Casio continues to improve upon that tech.
Agreed. Not sure what the holdup is.
Driveline Baseball - Advanced Training for the Baseball Athlete (located in Seattle, WA)
True.
It’s mostly relegated to dads/moms who have their youth athlete in a sport. The still picture and regular video quality is horrendous, so I can understand why nobody owns it as a point-and-shoot. It’s seriously not even good enough to use for pictures of my gym.
Driveline Baseball - Advanced Training for the Baseball Athlete (located in Seattle, WA)
I wouldn't be surprised to see the Canon 5D Mark III make the the jump to 120fps when it comes out.
But that will still cost you 3k.
by Scruffy Lefty on Mar 22, 2011 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Have you looked into using the kinect at all?
I don’t know if this would help what you’re doing or not.
http://www.wired.com/playbook/2010/11/kinect-could-hold-key-to-next-gen-baseball-biomechanics/
I did look into it.
And sadly, the sampling rate is too low. Pretty promising for a lot of applications, just not ours.
Driveline Baseball - Advanced Training for the Baseball Athlete (located in Seattle, WA)
Not really.
We are in the process of putting together some informal case studies about training, but not so much biomechanics and/or kinematic/kinetic analysis. We’re making our planar biomechanical analysis platform open source here in a little bit, though.
Driveline Baseball - Advanced Training for the Baseball Athlete (located in Seattle, WA)
Great work Kyle!
I’m Gavin’s brother, Tanner, and I’d just like to say that I find this really interesting, especially the process of how you got to where you’re at. I’m excited to see where it all ends up!
Thanks, Tanner! Good to hear from you.
Driveline Baseball - Advanced Training for the Baseball Athlete (located in Seattle, WA)
One more thing - Have you tried any time remapping using twixtor or Optical flow?
If you have access to apples motion theres something called optical flow which allows you to fake super slow mo without dropping frames. So basically blends the frames together. Heres a example with something that was shot at 60fps and twixtor’d to 1000fps
The 2 biggest problems is you need to shoot with a neutral background so it doesn’t fragment and skip. And the pitching motion may be to violent.
Seems really cool...
…but even from a cursory look, I can see major distortions. Additionally, the frame blending will probably screw up the quintic spline functions we use to synchronize our consumer-grade cameras.
Still really awesome for art/marketing use.
Driveline Baseball - Advanced Training for the Baseball Athlete (located in Seattle, WA)
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