The Los Angeles Angels And The Seattle Mariners
I was hoping to have something more substantial to say about all this, but the more I thought about it, the more I struggled to come up with a unique perspective. Not that writing on the Internet is all about finding unique perspectives since consensus tends to be consensus for a reason and there's no shame in making the same argument as other people, but I wanted to have something meaningful, something profound, and I don't. What I have is the same reaction that I had this morning, and the same reaction that everybody's had: holy crap. Holy crap, Angels.
When I went to bed Wednesday night, I went to bed right after filing a story on Baseball Nation saying that C.J. Wilson was reportedly leaning towards signing with the Angels. I wasn't happy about that, since C.J. Wilson is good, but C.J. Wilson isn't exactly a game-changer. Albert Pujols is a game-changer, and the Angels were said to be in the mix, but I didn't buy them. Not Wednesday night. Neither did a lot of other people, it looked like.
Then Thursday morning. One of the first things I do after I wake up is check Twitter on my phone, and the first thing I noticed was that I had a lot more unread updates than I usually do. That made me wonder. The second thing I noticed was Pujols. The third thing I noticed was Wilson. While I slept - and I swear I didn't sleep long - the Angels signed the best hitter on the market, and the Angels signed the best pitcher on the market.
It was a jolt to the system. Like the whole system. I sat there for a few minutes wearing this expression of What?, then I lay back down wearing this expression of What?. It's not that I was shocked by what the Angels did - the Angels have thrown money around before, and pursued the biggest names - but I didn't expect it. Not both. Certainly not Pujols.
I think the automatic first response, as a Mariners fan, was to feel defeated. The Angels are a division rival, and they just slapped everybody around them with a thick stack of money. Yes, ten years is a lot to guarantee a player like Pujols, who'll be 32 by Opening Day, but ignore any suggestion that Pujols could cripple the Angels down the road. Pujols could not play the last five years, literally not play at all, and the Angels would still survive. They'd probably do better than that. Pujols will eat up just a fraction of their payroll.
And I think the automatic second response, as a Mariners fan, was to wonder what this meant for the Mariners. Did this put more pressure on Jack Zduriencik to sign Prince Fielder? Did this put less pressure on Jack Zduriencik to sign Prince Fielder? The Mariners would have to respond, right? They'd have to respond, or else be left in the dust.
I don't think the answer is that this puts more pressure on Zduriencik to sign Fielder, specifically. I think this makes 2013 and 2014 the clear priority, as opposed to 2012. But then, I think 2013 and 2014 were already the clear priority. The Mariners are building to the future, while the Angels made moves that will help them in the future, but that will help them the most in the immediate.
The moves aren't completely irrelevant to the Mariners, but the Angels are working on a different timeframe, and remember - you have to remember - the Angels aren't the Mariners' competition. The Mariners don't necessarily have to be better than the Angels to make the playoffs. There is a wild card. Soon there will be double the wild cards. The Mariners can't worry about the Angels getting better - the Mariners need to worry about the Mariners getting better, as best they can. That doesn't mean they need to be reactionary. Being reactionary is how the Angels wound up with Vernon Wells. I don't know if that's actually true but it's the only explanation that's ever made sense to me.
If Fielder is the guy, by which I mean The Guy, and if the Mariners view him as such, they should go after him, hard. If they believe he can be productive and hold up for a while, then yeah, he's a great fit, even if 2012 is kind of shot. If Fielder isn't The Guy, so be it. No sense in forcing anything to try to keep up. Emotional decisions tend to be bad decisions.
I'm rambling now. I opened by saying that I wouldn't have anything substantial, and now look! Words! Here's what I think is the biggest lesson to take from the day's activity: the Angels are a huge spender, and as more and more time passes, one expects the correlation between payroll and success to get stronger and stronger. As other things balance out or get eliminated, it will end up being more about money than it was before. It will never be all about money. People aren't perfect prediction machines, and they'll never develop perfect prediction machines. But this is the way that we're headed, in theory, and presumably in reality.
So, yeah, the Mariners would give themselves a better chance if they started spending more money. Here's where the Mariners' payroll has ranked overall, by year:
2007: 7
2008: 9
2009: 10
2010: 14
2011: 16
That's an alarming trend. It's also an understandable trend, since the team has been bad and attendance has dropped, but the Mariners are going to have a lot of trouble contending, and sustainably contending, if they keep this up, or even if they stay where they are. I trust the Mariners' current front office to make good moves, because I believe in their player evaluation, but I do not believe the Mariners' front office is so good it negates the financial gaps between the M's and some of the teams above them.
The good news is that I think the Mariners really are prepared to invest more money when the situation calls for it. We've heard some hints along these lines, and also, it just makes sense. Ownership is aware that the team needs to win, ownership is aware that more money would help the team win, and ownership has the means of supplying a boost. I don't know what sort of boost, but probably a rather significant one.
So now isn't the time to throw in the towel, even if the Angels did just flex their muscles and then flex their muscles again. The Mariners' situation is critical, but not because of what the Angels did. The Mariners just need to get better, and they're on the right path towards getting better. When the time's right, I think the money will be there, and then we'll see where we stand. I don't anticipate that the Mariners will spend as much as the Angels do, but (A) they can close the gap, and (B) again, the Angels aren't the only competition. There's a whole big league out there.
I'm dreadfully afraid that the last few paragraphs haven't made very much sense. I'm also dreadfully afraid of going back and reading them over in fear that they have to be re-written. So why don't I just close with this: if the Mariners have put together a good plan, then the Angels' Thursday should do little to change it. Do you believe the Mariners have a good plan?
Give Jack Zduriencik time, and remember the talent in the organization. As long as the arrow's pointing up, it doesn't much matter what the other people do.
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You could have save a few thousand or hundred words
and said the M’s need to find a way to become the Rays of the West
I believe the Mariners have a good plan
I just hope ownership agrees and starts slapping the plan with thick stacks of money.
by lemonverbena on Dec 8, 2011 9:01 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
The second wild card definitely makes me feel a bit better about this than I would without it.
As long as we can stumble into the playoffs somehow then we have a good chance of winning it all, because the playoffs are a crapshoot. Watching Pujols tear us apart for the better part of the next decade is never going to be fun, though.
The arrow point up
If the Rangers arrow is point up with Feliz going to the rotation, deep pockets and good farm system and the Angels arrow point up with the additions of Pujols and Wilson, trade chips in Trumbo and Morales, and Trout bound to break out eventually, I just see the gap getting bigger.
Jeff states that it doesn’t matter what others do as long as we keep getting better. I don’t see it like that. What I see the gap between us and the Angels and Rangers getting bigger. I see the Angels and the Rangers reloading not rebuilding.
The Mariners ARE rebuilding
and Pujols does nothing to change that…
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
Ok, thanks. I thought that might be what you meant
Yeah, rebuild has been the word for the Mariners for a long time. I have kind of given up since 2010 on this team and its brass. I commend the Angels for what they are doing. They have been out of the playoffs for two years and they know what the value is to winning.
my reactions
1. Geoff Baker will be super annoying.
2. Sorry, Astros pitchers. You guys will have to see a lot of Pujols after one year break.
Geoff Baker was super annoying before yesterday. The Pujols signing doesn't change that.
Insert “angels” or “rangers” for GB if you like, it still works.
I still think the M's long-term prospects are ok.
But boy does this make it hard to be optimistic about the near future. At least in the past we’ve been able to realistically feel like we might have a shot if things broke just right, this year could get rough quick.
If Ackley, Smoak, Carp, and Wells can come out onto the field and perform well as a whole nearly every day
Then that’s going to be more than enough to keep me watching. I’m still excited for the future, I think we’ve got the pieces in place to start building for long term success. Whether or not Fielder becomes a part of that remains to be seen.
by Cascadian Man on Dec 8, 2011 9:16 PM PST up reply actions
Not sure what you do with Carp if Fielder gets signed.
by sea-townie on Dec 9, 2011 2:05 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I also think this is only a problem if Fielder actually is signed
Which in my mind instantly makes it a “good” problem.
Does he see Wells as our full time right fielder?
Or is Casper the 4th wheel? And, where does Catricala go when he shows he can hit AAA pitching?
To clarify the metaphor,
I am imagining Casper as the 4th wheel where a three-way is the norm. A world of trikes.
It seems Carp is determined to get better.
The hype surrounding him getting in better shape last offseason gives me hope he’ll work on his fielding, if that’s the case. I could see him as their main LF.
by sea-townie on Dec 9, 2011 11:41 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I'm optimistic about The Farm as well.
I’m curious to see who, if anyone, we may jettison in trades, but the current list of players on the farm are pretty exciting to me. A few more high level bats would be cool (and there’s always the chance to draft the best player available in next year’s draft in the hope that said player can also hit and field). In any event, John Sickels has posted his top 20 prospect review for the 2011 Mariners here.
Pretty much the only mitigating factor here is the salary but as you say it doesnt matter
Angels are one bad contract away from being neck and neck with the Yankees. They can absorb the damage.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Dec 8, 2011 9:12 PM PST reply actions
This seems familiar...
Two big free agents signing with the same team?
Or have I been reading too much about politics and absorbed the stupidity through osmosis.
Thanks for being the voice of reason, Jeff. Pretty deflating day today.
I thought I’d paid better attention; I’m kind of shocked we’re 16th in payroll. I somehow thought we were in the upper 15-20%.
Mariners Spending
While we’d all like to believe the Mariners will spend when they need to, all the evidence says otherwise. When Zduriencik needed a DH and LF in 2010, management decided to cut payroll by $10 million. They go out and trade for Cliff Lee, who’s signed for one year and sign Figgins and then they don’t let Jack finish the team. Believe Big My Ass!!!
Prince
Just give me Fielder and I’ll be happy for a day
In 2001 the Mariners won 116 games and the A's won 102.
Maybe we’ll get to see what it looks like from the other side.
RIP Greg Halman
Honestly, the following is the most important point:
The Mariners can’t worry about the Angels getting better – the Mariners need to worry about the Mariners getting better, as best they can.
The Angels with Albert Pujols and C.J. Wilson make it harder to win in this division but it does not prevent the Mariners from getting better.
It’s such a shame that offseason narratives have done quite a bit to cloud how aggressive Zduriencik has been to get this organization back on track.
Even with the roster as it stands, we’ll head into next season relying on good young talent rather than stopgap veterans like we did last year. In addition, we still have some $15 million in available payroll space (if payroll doesn’t change from last year). But because this offseason has gone all “GO GET PRINCE FIELDER OR ELSE!!!” it has been painting the situation as more depressing than it should be.
If the Angels and Rangers become the Yankees and Red Sox of the division so be it. It doesn’t prevent us from putting a good team on the field and I’m rather sick of hoping the rest of the division fails while a duct-taped Mariner team sneaks its way into the playoffs.
by ThundaPC on Dec 8, 2011 9:37 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
Anti-duct tape
I will agree with you that I enjoy watching young potential versus old known veterans. I just see the Miami marlins subsidizing their young talent with proven veteran ballplayers and ask myself “Are we that much different than the Marlins?”.
We weren't when Bavasi was in charge.
We’re still trying to recover from the effects of his cagey veteran shopping spree.
It was a pretty debilitating period for the team.
by Mariner John on Dec 8, 2011 10:30 PM PST up reply actions
No doubt
but hearing it for 3 years has gotten old. Especially, after this past year. Bavasi’s “handiwork” is pretty much of the books. This is Jack’s baby now.
Except for the lack of decent talent in the high minors
God those drafts were awful
"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot
by beastwarking on Dec 8, 2011 10:36 PM PST up reply actions
Franchises aren't completely reset every 3 years. There is a ton of carry-over.
And indeed, the drafts are one of the areas that is affected long after a GM leaves.
M's fan newly relocated to SF My homepage
I see Jeff Clement is still with the Pirates.
Thought he would have just given up by now.
*whistles*
Still fairly relevant.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
by JY on Dec 8, 2011 10:48 PM PST up reply actions 9 recs
Oh, how I wish Tui played QB for the Huskies.
It isn’t too late is it?
It feels like you are actively trying to incite mass suicide.
I am convinced that Seattle sports teams exist to make me hate Seattle sports teams.
by the other side on Dec 9, 2011 3:17 AM PST up reply actions
If I don't have an audience, I don't have to work anymore!
It’s not like I was getting paid anyway.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
by JY on Dec 9, 2011 12:30 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You HAVE to hear about it for at least three years.
Think about it. How many years does it take for a drafted player to work their way to the bigs? 3-4 years. If the previous GM developed players poorly, then that’s how long their handiwork is going to stay on the books. AT LEAST.
That's a lame response.
First off, I was making reference to “subsidizing young talent with veterans” being similar to how Bavasi handled things.
Second off, said handling resulted in a situation where Zduriencik is forced to work around the limitations in resources caused by Bavasi’s long term contracts. Not thrilled at Jack Cust being our offensive solution this year? Perhaps is Bavasi didn’t commit 4 years to Carlos Silva. Problems filling the outfield? Man, if only we still had Adam Jones….or Shin Soo Choo. Hate seeing the worst offense in baseball? If only Bavasi left us with some reliable young position players (like Jones and Choo) to build around.
Hearing that is getting old after just three years? Tough cookies. That’s how much damage Bavasi did. His one good move remains (Ichiro extension) and even that’s expensive for one more year. Zduriencik has had to rebuild the entire organization from scratch with little payroll support while fans grow impatient. Nope, sorry. Bavasi’s effect doesn’t disappear that easily.
Well, one bright side.
Felix day against the Angels just got a lot more intense. The baseball fan in me cannot wait to watch Felix pitch against Pujols.
by Sambearpig on Dec 8, 2011 9:57 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Ok people. Stop responding to WazzuMadBro.
He’s obviously just some reject 4chan troll. I’m, sure he’s gonna be permabanned once Jeff or Matthew get around to it. Until then, it does zero good to keep responding to him. So let’s not.
by Goose on Dec 8, 2011 11:08 PM PST reply actions 14 recs
I tried once to see if he would respond to someone asking him nicely to settle down.
Since that didn’t work, I agree with you.
Why does it have to be another
follow @casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on Dec 9, 2011 6:33 AM PST up reply actions
(I shouldn't have tried to type laying down this early.)
Why does it have to be another Coug? Why couldn’t it be Dawgsomething or Huskysomething? Why my people have to make us look bad!
follow @casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on Dec 9, 2011 6:35 AM PST up reply actions
It's a response to the Mike Leach hiring
Cougs are becoming more offensive.
by MT Olson on Dec 9, 2011 7:08 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
I think Jeff has a life outside of the Mariners.
Must be nice.
I don't know.
I was snooping around Lone Star Ball today and they seem more upset at the Angels in general as well as the fact that Wilson got such a small contract from them.
No need to apologise for internet trolls.
No one has enough time for that.
by Aussie Mariner on Dec 9, 2011 1:08 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
And a spelling test too? ;)
Obviously, I kid.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 9, 2011 9:27 AM PST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
And a spelling test too? ;)
Obviously, I kid.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 9, 2011 9:27 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
You have to be full time writers and babysitters.
Thanks for everything you guys do.
by John Woody on Dec 9, 2011 7:46 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Thank you
I know it’s probably more of a reflection on me than him (?), but he was really affecting the enjoyment I get from the site.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 9, 2011 9:26 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
When you're used to just text/small tasteful images it's really glaring on the eyes to see that shit
I was at home by myself and I was embarassed that somebody might be looking over my monitor
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
I was really impressed by your equanimity in replying to him
Most people like to pile on with trolls, but you were actually responding to whatever points he was making, even if they were far and few between. I guess LL’s the place to expect trolls to be responded to decently. That said, I wish Graham had been here to kick his ass or something. The old Graham, that is. Not the new and improved version.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 9, 2011 11:26 AM PST up reply actions
Yes, of course
Which is why I loved David’s response so much.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 9, 2011 9:03 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Like (I assume) everyone else, the news was shocking.
But then I came to my senses. It’s been a couple years (no using couple literally) that at least two other teams in ALWesr have been better than the Mariners. That fact will remain for 2012. But I do feel the team is poopy in a good way, the young way. There’s been years when they’ve been poopy in much more headslapping ways.
In a wonked out way, I’m stoked to be able to see Pujols at least a few times a year and I’ll only have a 15 minute walk from work. Baseball!!’
by sea-townie on Dec 9, 2011 2:00 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Things don't always work out entirely as planned in baseball, for proof
see last year’s Phillies and Yankees. Nobody saw the SF Giants coming and nobody expected the 2011 Cardinals to win it all. Seattle should soon have pitching just about as good as anyone’s… and hopefully the hitting will improve some each year. Yes, you have to be lucky but that’s the way life is.
ignacio
Or saw the M's in contention for a split second last year.
Or the Red Sox selft destruct in the final month of the season.
Even if the signing of Fielder only made the M's an 80 win team (and they can't poopoo on the idea of being an 80 win team next year) I would still take into account the watchability factor.
I love Felix and Pineda and Ackley and watching them play, but scoring 2 or 3 runs gets very tiring. Signing Fielder might not help the M’s get to the playoffs in 2012 or even 2013, but adding a big bat in the middle of the lineup will at least make the team easier to watch and more competitive. And by competitive I don’t just mean during the course of a season, I mean not losing all hope during a game when you go down 3 runs (or 2 runs or sometimes even 1 run it felt like.)
If the rumors are true about teams only offering Prince 5 and him wanting 7 or 8, it seems like any team could have Prince right now if they made the right offer. IF the rumors were true. I say split the difference and see if 6 with a team option 7 gets the job done.
follow @casetines
Well this won't help.
@Ken_Rosenthal This explains it: #Angels’ new 20-year TV deal with Fox, per @BillShaikin, takes them from $50M per year to $150M. Different world. #MLB
Perhaps it will stop the periodic quibbles about revenue and attendance.
Attendance at the ballpark doesn’t matter anymore, if it did to begin with, for $ for payroll.
The Myth of buying a bat
I don’t understand why so many people think we “have” to buy a bat. All these great bats came from somewhere; that is some teams farm system. I know talent on Fielder’s level is rare, but he won’t be the last player to hit .300 and 30+ home runs. Why does it feel like so many M’s fans have forgotten that the best bats ever to be seen in a Mariners jersey were themselves home grown (Edgar, Griffey Jr., Alex Rodriguez). With a great scouting department we can find these gems again, and I believe we will soon. I still have faith in Smoak’s ability when he is healthy, I liked what I saw from Casper Wells, and Ackley is a proven commodity. In reality if we can get production from these guys and Carp can sustain his performance, I believe we’re looking at a team that is able to provide enough offense to win games. Let us not forget pitching and defense still win championships (ask the Giants) that is our strength and that is what we should not forget. We don’t need to lead the league in offense, we just need an offense that compliments our strengths. Such a formula will keep us competitive for a long time, during which time I promise you the next offensive prodigy we have been waiting for will find his way into and through our farm system. If we can’t afford Fielder we have no business signing him, especially when the amount he’ll make will not be equivalent to his real life contribution to our success as a team. When we are on the brink of a World Series run then I’ll get behind the all-in approach of acquiring that last piece to get us over the top. But as it stands now we are a young team that’s just getting ready to realize their true potential. Lets not tie up our resources in a Free Agent that we don’t even know yet whether is or is not the missing piece.
Franklin & Catricala are not far away
…and maybe just one of the many mid grade type OF’s develops next year. With that stated, I abandon caution and ask : has there ever been any official M’s statement on Yu Darvish ? He should be looked at as an option, in my opinion, based on his performance even if it is not in MLB. He could be an excellent fit for this team if the price is right.
You have an ownership group
where the majority owner lives 6000 miles away, have never attended a Mariner game, and only interested in giving his own countrymen favorable contracts. The second majority owner is in a bitter divorice battle and doesn’t want to sink in any more capital. The rest of the 13 small dwarfs amount to something like 15% of the total ownership of the club. You expect them to inject needed capital to field a championship level ball club to compete with the Angels and the Rangers? This ownership structure never worked before, and it’s not going to work in the future; unless someone else with deep pocket buys the ownership share from Hiroshi Yamauchi and Chris Larson.
by Carlos_Zambrano on Dec 9, 2011 12:48 PM PST reply actions

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