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More on Prince Fielder and Opt-Outs

Don't make that face at me.

I wrote this piece on Prince Fielder and Rosenthal's mention of a desire for an opt-out clause in a bit of a hurry, which the attentive reader might have picked up on because the post didn't continue on and on as I am more likely to do because, dammit, it's more fun to explore the nuance than to reach a conclusion. Conclusions imply finality and very little of anything actually possesses finality.

And this is baseball, an ultimately minute concern, so we should feel free and even encouraged to playfully indulge in over-contemplation, knowing that failing to reach a solution suitable for a one-line media sound bite is not the end of the world, nor even our burden to begin with.

To that end, well, not end, but rather, to that goal I will wade back to the subject with a sort of response to some of the responses. Particularly, I found a few of the conclusions too absolutist in nature and therefore wanted to lay bare the entirety of my thoughts for now on the question. At the very least, reaching the end of all this will convey a slightly better idea of what I mean when I write "give it a think." I mean, in part, give it far too much thought before unequivocally stating a preference.

Mostly, my ire was raised by those who seemed to offhandedly dismiss the notion as not possibly beneficial to the team. That's ludicrous. There is clearly a possible benefit to the Mariners and if someone can't think of one, then I suggest that person retire from commenting about baseball until he or she gain some more experience in following it.

That is, of course, not saying there's always a benefit to the Mariners. "Opt out = always good for Mariners" is just as silly a thing to posit as "opt out = never good for Mariners". There have to be benefits exclusive to the players' side of course, otherwise teams would unrelentingly love player opt-out options, which would be a ridiculous extrapolation and a pointless avenue of discussion. But those benefits might end up mutual is the main point that I wanted people to realize. Parts of it would be good, parts of it would be bad and on the whole it could go either way, with perhaps a weighted mean showing a preference one way or another. That's what's potentially interesting! Not so much claims that there are no benefits at all to one of the parties.

For instance, say that if after three years (a hypothetical example), Fielder has performed well. He would almost certainly opt out and cost the Mariners the option of trading away Fielder's net positive future expected value. Sure. That's a possibility. It's not the entirety of course, and, I counter, how big of a risk is that really? Fielder isn't Michael Pineda or Matt Moore or even Adrian Beltre circa winter 2004. We're reasonably sure of Fielder's ceiling and we're reasonably sure he's going to be signing a contract that pays him to perform at a level very close to his ceiling for many many years.

How much excess future value could one really, rationally expect Fielder to produce between 2012 and 2014? Keeping in mind that said excess value actually belongs to and is banked by the Mariners. All they'd theoretically lose out on is the ability, in this circumstance, to swap an expectation of the continuation of that surplus, for something perhaps more secure, provided the Mariners find a willing partner.

How likely is all that? And how important is ensuring that cannot happen versus hedging some risk in the other possible scenarios? Put another way, operating under the assumption that adding a player opt-out to the deal (ostensibly a player's benefit) lowers the average yearly salary the team needs to get Fielder to sign, here's my breakdown on the possibilities.

Prince Fielder underperforms the contract before the option. In this case, the team is likely stuck anyways and now is probably pretty fain about having included the option and lowering their cost. Of course, there exists the possibility that some factors could conspire to convince Fielder and his agent that he could land a still better deal, or location, elsewhere on the free market and thus opt out. To the relief of the Mariners.

Prince Fielder performs to the contract before the option. In this case, who knows? But I imagine that, given the nature of baseball contracts and such, that I, in a vacuum, would be a bit worried about how the next five years will go (since players rarely get better from 31-34 compared to 28-30) and so wouldn't be terribly bothered about Fielder cutting out should he choose so. There's the chance that the Mariners could be entering a period wherein they truly need a player like Fielder on their roster, but of course they still don't walk away empty-handed. They get loads of payroll space freed up.

Prince Fielder overperforms the contract before the option. At this point, the Mariners have tucked away some surplus value and Fielder likely takes his option and heads back to free agency for a new long-term deal to pay him beginning with his age 31 season. That's not bad for the Mariners. It's potentially bad for the Mariners and I'm not being trivial in making that distinction.

It's only bad for the Mariners if they lose out on future value that they would not have lost out on should the player option not have existed. That requires a few things to transpire.

Either, Fielder would have to continue to provide surplus value over the next five years (under the hypothetical). That's usually a tough task to begin with and remember, he'd be held to a higher standard (read: salary) under the no-opt-out contract. Or, the Mariners would have to cash in (read: trade) Fielder at some point before he went south. That's possible, but again, how likely? Remember, this is assuming that Fielder is currently outperforming a contract that's probably paying him to be a 4-5 WAR player. How often do teams trade that?

It feels to me that a few people are extraordinarily focusing their concerns on that latter scenario. It's like reading some perverse loss-aversion reactions to the possibility that Prince Fielder in 2015 could still be a 5 WAR hitter when really, I think it should be the entire other way around. A player opt-out does, under narrow circumstances, limit the upside of a deal. That criticism is far more applicable to up-and-coming players than players already at their peak, but I'll grant it. However, the opt out, even though not under the team's control, does lower their risk. And that's a great benefit to a team.

Frankly, given how (correctly) often it's repeated that free agency is an awful way to build a team, I expected that anyone confronted with an opportunity to dabble in free agency with the hint of possibly escaping an excruciating collapse at the expense of a mild bit of upside would be, on the whole, for it. I assumed the debate would be more about whether it would be preferable after year three or four, or how much per year would be a suitable discount for offering him one.

In conclusion that's not actually a conclusion, I think the idea of Prince Fielder having an option to opt out of his contract roughly half way through it (per the usual) has some pluses and it has some minuses, that in neither case are they extremely weighted to either side, but that ultimately most of the benefits are mutual, the downside is not all that bad and that I have taken 1,300 words to impart that because nobody should skimp on exposition.

Comment 45 comments  |  6 recs  | 

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Comments

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I'm still unclear as to whether an opt-out clause is good or bad.

Or whether he’s been given an offer or not by the M’s. Or if the Cubs are interested or not interested. Or if Yu Darvish will be good. Fuck, it is all so confusing.

by Matsui on Dec 20, 2011 9:59 PM PST reply actions  

I love the idea of an opt out clause.

I really hope that they sign Fielder and he performs well enough and wants to opt out. Hopefully by then some of their current prospects become respectable hitters and also have some high ceiling prosects at that time. Jack Z is all about building through the minors and if they still have a crummy farm in the future they’re screwed. If/when he comes off the books they can use his pay else where.

by LeftArrow2 on Dec 20, 2011 10:04 PM PST reply actions  

It's basically a european-style put option

In this case the mariners would be selling the put option to Fielder.

Let’s say he’s under contract for 3 years. Then there’s an option for 5 more years. So there’s really two contracts: a conventional 3 year contract, and a 5 year option contract after that.

This type of option has value to Fielder, so he should be willing to “pay” for it in the form of a discount on the first 3 years of salary. The key to the Mariners (and Fielder/Boras) is how to value this option. The fact that Boras is pushing for it probably means that he thinks it is worth more than the team would sell it for, but that doesn’t mean that both parties can’t come out ahead— the Mariners might like the idea of a discount in the first 3 years (until bigger TV revenue kicks in or something). Who knows.

by MangoLiger on Dec 20, 2011 10:51 PM PST reply actions  

Like the thoughts, Matthew.

I’d bet that a very similar back and forth goes through the minds of Jack Z. and the player’s agent. Add to this the current and projected state of the team that would likely have a bearing on an opt-out clause. If the team Jack has been building gels prior to the opt-out, both sides may want to re-negotiate. If the team needs more work but Fielder has performed well, an opt-out could be mutually beneficial, freeing up payroll for the Mariners to follow other options and Fielder to pursue more money and a contending team.

If, after 3-4 years, Fielder has been performing well and the team is winning, the problem of maybe having to re-negotiate for more money is a good problem to have.

by PackBob on Dec 20, 2011 11:04 PM PST reply actions  

I think that, all things being equal, I want Prince to sign a contract with the Mariners that includes an opt-out,

and then I want to stack the deck a little bit such that he’d take it. That is, set it up to perhaps overpay prior to the opt-out, and then drop the per-year salary from that point as the deal continues.

I would love to get Prince Fielder in the short-term, but in the long-term I’m afraid of his decline phase.

by Two Rs and Two Ls on Dec 21, 2011 7:28 AM PST reply actions  

In my mind, this is very straightforward

The option, as with all options, has positive value to the option holder and negative value to the writer of the option. Any analysis otherwise require you to assume that the holder of the option is stupid and will exercise in a suboptimal manner. If Fielder’s expected value on the open market is greater than the remainder of his contract, he should opt out and the Mariners lose a contract that pays a superstar below market rates. If his expected value is below the contract, he stay and the Mariners are stuck overpaying. Fielder holds the option and it is unambiguously bad for the mariners. As Matthew astutely notes, the Mariners may be able to negotiate a lower priced contract if they include the option. This indicates that the option holds positive value for Boras and negative value for the team. If the discount to the contract is sufficiently large, maybe that works out in the Mariner’s favor. Obviously there is some price at which the option would be overvalued. But that comes down to a cost/benefit analysis. In and of itself, if the Mariners are not compnsated for issuing the option (and I am sure they would be, they aren’t stupid either) the option clearly holds negative value to the team.

by phineasd on Dec 21, 2011 9:02 AM PST via mobile reply actions   1 recs

No, it simply requires you to assume that an action cannot be beneficial to both parties

i.e., that anything that is good for one party must be bad for the other. This is not necessarily true.

by The Ancient Mariner on Dec 21, 2011 9:13 AM PST up reply actions  

But that is precisely how option work

All options have zero net value. Example: let’s suppose the option does have value for Fielder and he opts out. Let’s say the mariner contract would hav paid him $100 million remaining, and he opts out and signs a new contract for $120 million. That is $20 million of value to Fielder and $20 million that the Mariners lost. Of he resigns with the Ms (a la Sabathia) it is a direct cost. If he signs with another team, the Mariners lost a trade chip. If they didn’t want to keep his contracts on the book, they could have traded it to the other team for $20 million in cash of surplus player value. By including the option, they give up that opportunity.

by phineasd on Dec 21, 2011 9:37 AM PST via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

A one-way option is almost by definition good only for the option-holder

One can certainly, as Matthew has done, posit scenarios where the exercise of the option ultimately works to benefit the Mariners, but this requires either that either (a) Fielder makes a bad decision at the time it was made, or (b) something unexpected happens. If you assume rational actors and a reasonably efficient marketplace, the option can’t work to the benefit of the Mariners. The best the Mariners can hope for is neutrality.

If Fielder “pays” for the option by agreeing to a reduced per year payment, then one can only assume that, taking that payment into account, the option is neutral as of the day the contract is signed, as both sides, with equal leverage, negotiated the option’s value. Further, if you think Fielder will “pay” for the option, this essentially proves that the option is a net-benefit to Fielder. Otherwise, why would he pay?

by taprat on Dec 21, 2011 10:06 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Except real life is a touch more complicated than an example problem at the end of Chapter 3 in an Econ 101 textbook.

A player signing a contract isn’t a value, or even an asset, to a team. It’s a liability, an obligation, a debt. Value needs to take into account the return from the player’s services. So no, Fielder opting out of $100M and signing for $120M is not $20M of value lost to the Mariners. It is, as I already stated, only lost value if Fielder performs above $100M in services or if the Mariners would have traded Fielder to cash in on the $20M in differential market valuation at the time of the opt out. And, going back to my subject line, it’s all a little bit more complicated than that because baseball is not a perfect market and lo and behold, there are other factors, like public relations, that muddy the waters of valuation.

by Matthew on Dec 21, 2011 12:33 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I really hope I don't need to explain that there are two sides to a balance sheet

The player’s services are an asset. Those go on the left hand side. The dollars owed are a liability. Those go on the right hand side. They balance out. (Hence, “balance sheet”.) A contract specifies both. There is no liability without an accompanying asset.

I am comparing the contract with the option to the exact same contract without the option. The difference would be the value of the option. I don’t think that’s debatable. It is irrelevant how much value Fielder ends up providing after he opts out and a new contract is signed. That’s results based thinking based upon a single observation from a large distribution of possible outcomes. What matters is the expected value of that future performance, and absent any other metric the fair market price is a perfectly logical and relevant figure.

First, assume Fielder resigns with the Mariners. The instant Fielder exchanges his $100 million contract for a new $120 million contract, that is $20 million dollars more on the liability side of the balance sheet for the Mariners. In this case, the option clearly cost them $20 million. If the contract was written without the option, their liabilities would be $20 million lower for the same asset. Now assume he signs with another team for $120 million. It makes no difference. The Mariners used to have a $120 million asset on the books and $100 million in liabilities. Now they have zero in assets and zero in liabilities. They just lost $20 million due to the option.

Look, it is very clear. Any way you spin it, an option can NEVER have positive value to the party that writes the option. Doesn’t matter how imperfect the markets are or how muddy the valuation is. At the very best the option can be worth zero.

by phineasd on Dec 21, 2011 2:30 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Well, no shit.

You:

I am comparing the contract with the option to the exact same contract without the option.

I didn’t realize that was your line of, what, disagreement? I’m unsure because I explicitly stated a different operating assumption in my post* so as to skip over the what I thought to be self-evident and, frankly, boring point that you seem to me to be making now.

*operating under the assumption that adding a player opt-out to the deal (ostensibly a player’s benefit) lowers the average yearly salary the team needs to get Fielder to sign

And even still you strike me as far too rigidly adhering to a model. I was never making a broad argument about player options. I was making a tailored and specific examination of a single particular case. They don’t have to conform to each other.

by Matthew on Dec 21, 2011 3:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Just trying to be clear

The reduced value of the contract is the value of the option at the time the contract is signed. The comparison between the contract with and without the option at exercise date gives the value of the option at the exercise date. Both indicate that the option has a positive value to Fielder’s camp and a negative value to the Mariner’s camp. Hence their need to be compensated for its issuance with a lower price tag. The option will never ever ever have a positive value for the option writer.

My broad argument is that player options always have negative value to the team. My tailored and specific point is that if the Mariners sign Prince Fielder to a contract with a player option, that particular player option will always have negative value to the Mariners.

by phineasd on Dec 21, 2011 3:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, to be clear,

I think you’re trying to argue something that I am not, I disagree, and I have laid out why.

by Matthew on Dec 21, 2011 3:41 PM PST up reply actions  

With which of phineasd's points do you disagree?

Seriously. I would like to know. Because I think the framework he has laid out is exactly correct. Maybe it’s boring or not worthy of discussion in your eyes because it’s an assumption that was already built into your comments, but I haven’t seen anyone persuasively argue that it isn’t true.

In fact, it seems foundational. We ought to all be able to agree that, all else being equal, and without engaging in results based analysis, a player option benefits only the option-holder. With that as a basis, there are interesting things to noodle on.

by taprat on Dec 21, 2011 3:57 PM PST up reply actions  

`
With which of phineasd’s points do you disagree?

This:

My tailored and specific point is that if the Mariners sign Prince Fielder to a contract with a player option, that particular player option will always have negative value to the Mariners.

Either that’s:
A) arguing something I am not because it’s operating under a (for this example) completely different assumption, see prev comment about discount for option or
B) I disagree because there absolutely can be a way for it to have positive value for the Mariners if the discount they get from including the player option has a greater EV than Fielder’s weighted lost surplus value should he choose to exercise it.

If you want to devolve into an argument that given Contract A and B which are identical except that B contains an opt out for Fielder and that B >= A then, sure. I don’t disagree in principle. But what of it? That’s incredibly elementary. It’s not interesting. To me, that’s like having an argument over whether you’d prefer the Mariners sign Fielder for 6 years at $20 mil/year or $18 mil/year. I don’t see it as a point worth making especially when coached in language that makes it appear to be countering something that’s unrelated.

The only disagreement I have if you want to assume that is that it’s not actually as simple as: here’s Fielder’s cost and here’s his market value ergo etc etc. Because that line of reasoning, while mostly correct, does ignore other factors such as “Perhaps the Mariners trying to trade in Fielder’s surplus value would incur a negative backlash from their fans that they wouldn’t face were Fielder to opt out” see: references aplenty here about how people would react were Felix to leave via free agency versus be traded.

by Matthew on Dec 21, 2011 5:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Here is your argument

“In conclusion that’s not actually a conclusion, I think the idea of Prince Fielder having an option to opt out of his contract roughly half way through it (per the usual) has some pluses and it has some minuses, that in neither case are they extremely weighted to either side, but that ultimately most of the benefits are mutual, the downside is not all that bad”

I am saying that the opt out option has one and only one plus, and that is the possibility of a reduced cost of the contract. The fact that the Mariners could somehow be rid of a player who has outperformed his contract and signs a larger deal elsewhere — that is clearly a minus, and you and others have argued otherwise. And I am arguing that the benefits are clearly NOT mutual. They are entirely adversarial. As with any option, a gain to one party is a loss to the other. I apologize if my examples were confusing you, I meant for them to help illustrate these points. But I strongly disagree with your argument as you have written in your conclusion. They are entirely at odds to the basic principles of option theory.

by phineasd on Dec 21, 2011 7:59 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Excuse me?

You wrote the summation yourself and I think it actually does capture your core thoughts. If you believe otherwise maybe you want to put a little more thought into your writings. If this is not going anywhere it is because you refuse to respond to a perfectly valid point.

by phineasd on Dec 22, 2011 6:07 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

It does capture the core thoughts

but, as a summation, is not independent of the rest of the post wherein I stated, and have reaffirmed numerous times in these comments, that the whole point operates under the assumption that Fielder pays for the option. At every step you seem to be operating as if that’s not there. I don’t know why.

I’m leaving this as my last response on the subject to you. My suspicion is that we actually agree aside from a minor quibble over semantic language. I’m not sure. I cannot figure out what your point actually is since you keep going back to the option at no cost well, but I’m through trying. You’ve demonstrated a history of being an ass to people here and seem unable, despite repeated warnings, to refrain from hurling snide insults, so the prudent action from my view is to simply no longer engage you.

If anyone else wants to discuss the subject, I’m willing.

by Matthew on Dec 22, 2011 8:57 AM PST up reply actions   3 recs

Ugh. That was too dismissive.

I make it a point to be accurate in my language so if you have a disagreement in the wording that you can show politely and not out of context, I will respond.

by Matthew on Dec 22, 2011 9:37 AM PST via Android app up reply actions  

Wrong

“The fact that the Mariners could somehow be rid of a player who has outperformed his contract and signs a larger deal elsewhere — that is clearly a minus.”

That’s not clear at all. If it were to free the team from the years of overpaying for Fielder’s decline phase — which always seems to happen in big contracts — it would be a plus. Had Richie Sexson had an opt-out after the first two years of his contract, and had he exercised it and gone elsewhere for more money, that would have been to the team’s benefit, not to their detriment.

"Baseball isn't the world's best distraction, but only because it's so easy to start a fire." --Jeff Sullivan

by The Ancient Mariner on Dec 25, 2011 9:01 PM PST up reply actions  

This ignores all of the issues as it relates to baseball that can make a player opting out advantageous.

Example 1: Fielder does well his option year, but there are scouting implications that he will decline quickly.
Example 2: Mariners have a first baseman/DH in the minors that could replace Fielder for low cost.
Example 3: Mariners suck 3 years from now. Could use the salary on other holes.

Those are just a few examples where Fielder opting out could have a benefit. In addition, if we signed him to a long term contract without an option, we would be stuck paying his salary exactly as if he had declined his option in the event he is terrible, and in the event he is excellent and not terrible, most people here agree that it’s a risky bet to pay 20 million a year for a player’s age 31 to 36 seasons anyway, and that decline is very likely – something that Fielder could easily not agree with and attempt to sign a longer term contract elsewhere, that likely the team would not support.

It puts all of the power in Fielder’s hands, which is what makes it a negative value to the team, but arguing that it can’t provide advantages to the Mariners in some way is wrong, and if by offering the option the team also saves some money on yearly costs, I think it’s very difficult to argue that it’s a guaranteed negative value, and there are situations – albeit uncommon – that can make it a positive value. The point of this post was to highlight how a player opt out can actually help the team in some scenarios, especially if you’re of the belief that long term contracts for overweight first baseman with no defensive value are bad (even though other teams in baseball seem to think it’s a worthy risk). Even if Fielder excels and has good reason to opt out, the Mariners should rarely, if ever, be signing any player like Fielder to a long term contract if there are any other options, and this provides them with an out that – while in Fielder’s control – could easily be advantageous to a team like the Mariners should he choose to exercise it, no matter how well he did his first 3 years.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Dec 21, 2011 2:45 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

You are 0 for 3

In each of these examples, the Mariners are better off if they have Fielder signed to a contract without the option.

Example 1: Great. If the Mariners are worried about that, trade him away to another team that wishes to take on that risk and get something of value back. If no other team wants to take on his contract — guess what, he wouldn’t opt out and the Mariners are stuck with it anyways. They have all the downside and none of the upside.

Example 2: Great. The Mariners can trade him away and change his surplus value into prospects while freeing up the salary. If he opts out they get nothing.

Example 3: Great. The Mariners can trade him away and change his surplus value into prospects to help rebuliding while freeing up the salary. If he opts out they get nothing.

In each case, the Mariners are better off WITHOUT including the option in the contract.

by phineasd on Dec 21, 2011 3:05 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

No, I'm not.

I appreciate the idea of trade value, but the ability to trade for a player and the ability to sign a player are not identical. Fielder, for example, can be looking for more years at less salary, and a team would prefer to pay less now and more later. Also, the argument is not just about the contract. The argument is that the Mariners can still benefit from the opt out if he opts out, using all of those examples I stated above. If you look at it as “Well the Mariners can trade him also” then sure, I suppose one could say that IF the Mariners can trade them, THEN the opt out will be less valuable. But if he still opts out, the Mariners will have had 3 of his best years, they’ll have 20+ million more to spend on future players, they’ll have spent LESS during those three years because the assumption is that they’d have to pay less per year in the event he receives the opt out – giving Fielder an opt out can easily not hurt the Mariners, and there are ways they can benefit from it if he chooses to use it. Indeed, you can look at it from a long term cost stand point as well – he gets paid less because of the opt out, and he becomes terrible and doesn’t opt out – he then become less of an albatross because the Mariners will be paying him less per year.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Dec 21, 2011 7:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Upon rereading this post, thank you for the first paragraph Matthew.

Just because a decision lies ahead or a question is posed doesn’t mean it has a right answer, or a single right answer, or even an answer at all.
Prince Fielder: gateway to rudimentary philosophy!

by fiftyone on Dec 21, 2011 11:05 AM PST via mobile reply actions  

It is a very comfortable fence, isn't it?

I think you’ve done a great job in the write up, and you’re absolutely right there are scenarios that play out both ways. There’s one thing that strikes me though. The situation where the team benefits most hinges upon the assumption that other teams will be less intelligent.

In the situation of overperforming, then Fielder signing elsewhere for way too much money in his decline years (as opposed to being signed here for just somewhat too much) you have to assume that other teams will overvalue previous performance even more than the Mariners.

I don’t think it’s a terrible assumption that another team might give him the stupid contract. It has happened many times, and will continue to happen. The scary situation is if the Mariners ended up being the “winners” at this point, and pay him even more for the decline years than they would have otherwise. So in a way, this adds one more variable to consider with these options, how smart do you think your team’s talent evaluation is compared to the rest of the league? If you feel confident in Jack Z’s crew (or whomever is in charge at that point), it weights the option idea more favorably. If you’re stuck with terrible management, especially if it overvalues proven big-name veterans, the option becomes a little bit scarier.

by Sidi on Dec 21, 2011 1:22 PM PST reply actions  

I suppose that's true.

Once he has opted out, whether he finds the better deal or not, the team would be off the hook. There is still the element of management (how much money would they be willing to put on the table to keep a veteran player fans love), but it probably is more of a direct consideration than I first thought, rather than being entirely relative to the other teams.

I’d like to stress I’m not trying to say anything (good or bad) about the current management. I’m just trying to work through what would influence it when the option turns out to be a positive or negative.

by Sidi on Dec 21, 2011 1:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Can't happen that way, at least by MLB rules

That would be about 7 degrees of tampering and huge penalties for the team if they’re caught. As leaky as the MLB rumor boat is, no team would even attempt to make a deal for a player that’s still under contract with another team.

by nathaniel dawson on Dec 21, 2011 7:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Actually more that Scott Boras thinks they will

Anyways, if these other teams are chomping at the bit to overpay Fielder, why doesn’t Jack Z just trade Fielder away to one of those teams for value in excess of the contract. See what San Diego did with Adrain Gonzales last year? If his contract was for $20 million a year, do you think they could have got that prospect haul? If his contract had an opt-out option, could they have received that? Of course not. The option absolutely destroys any possibility of realizing that excess value and, on the flip side, keeps the Mariners on the hook in the event of a Figgins-like occurance. It results in a highly negatively skewed distribution. In no way can it possibly deliver positive expected value to the Mariners.

by phineasd on Dec 21, 2011 2:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Dude.

Gonzales had one year left on his contract and a hilariously low club option because he was signed to a joke of a contract back when he was still club controlled. He also had an opt out – it’s called “free agency” and it happens at the end of a contract.

Fielder is going to be signed by the highest bidder, ergo other teams don’t want to pay him that much, which means that he would be extremely hard to trade, especially as he ages into his contract. With or without a opt-out clause, once he’s signed the chances of trading Fielder become almost nothing.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Dec 21, 2011 2:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Dude.

I think your point is that there is a low probability that Fielder outperforms his contract by enough to provide significant excess value. Adrian Gonzalez clearly did, in a different situation. CC Sabathia clearly did, in a situation similar to Fielder’s. Whether Fielder might or might not outperform is subjective and I don’t necessarily disagree with you on the likelihood. The upside event may be a low probability occurance and most likely the option would not be exercised. However, that has no bearing at all upon its value in the event that he does opt out. If he does perform well enough to opt out, the option undeniably costs the Mariners some value. Also, the chances of trading Fielder (at least for excess value, not eating any of his contract) are probably exactly equal to the chances of his outperforming the contract.

by phineasd on Dec 21, 2011 3:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Adrian Gonzalez outperformed his contract because it wasn't a free agent contract.

I don’t understand the Sabathia argument because he didn’t use the opt out and the Yankees haven’t tried to trade him. Also, the Yankees do a lot of shit that doesn’t make sense to the rest of baseball. Finally, again, since the Mariners would save yearly salary by providing the opt out, that salary saved has numerous benefits that offset the risk of not being able to trade him.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Dec 21, 2011 7:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Now I remember

You are the guy who is so tightly wedded to his own viewpoint that it is pointless to have a discussion with you. You sure aren’t trying very hard to understand my posts and seem to be going out of your way to misinterpret them.

by phineasd on Dec 21, 2011 8:02 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

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