Yu Darvish And The Mariners
All offseason long, I haven't figured the Mariners have much of a chance of getting Yu Darvish. Hell, it wasn't even apparent when Darvish would be posted, or even if he would be posted at all, until last week. But then Darvish was posted, and now teams have until tomorrow afternoon to submit their blinds bids, and I realized I haven't really written anything about Darvish at all, mostly because I didn't think he was a realistic option. I decided I should write something, so I am writing this. You guys must love when I take you behind the scenes.
You have to know about Darvish, right? There can't be a single one of you who doesn't know at least a little bit about Yu Darvish. He's 25. Over the last five years, he's posted a 1.72 ERA. The worst strikeout-to-walk ratio he's posted over that span is 3.7, and the best is 7.7, which he just did last season. He has a complete repertoire, and he's just good, just really really good. And he's been posted, like other Japanese superstars and non-superstars.
Interestingly, rumor has it that Darvish would prefer to play on the West coast. You know, closer to Japan. That's exciting, right? It's not like the Padres would get involved. It's not like the A's would get involved. The Giants spent all their money, the Angels spent (hopefully) all their money, the Dodgers are running out of money...Seattle makes sense, doesn't it?
Of course, Darvish isn't a free agent. He's being posted, which means his preference doesn't matter. Even if Darvish really does prefer to play on the West coast, and even if he finds Seattle appealing, his negotiating rights will be given to the high bidder, no matter who that is, or where the team plays. So it's an interesting rumor, and, ultimately, an irrelevant rumor.
So, should the Mariners submit a bid? The answer is yes. It's an obvious yes. Of course the Mariners should submit a bid - there's no downside to submitting a bid. The better question is, should the Mariners submit a huge bid? A potentially winning bid? And here's where we get into that weird situation with the Mariners and Japanese posting fees. If the posting fee would come out of some separate fund, then, as a fan, I'm all about it. I'm all about the Mariners trying to win Darvish's rights. What do I care about that separate fund?
I don't know what the Mariners' plan is, mind you. Everything has to be kept very hush-hush, because, remember, this is a blind process, and if you're interested in a posted player, you don't want to give another team a signal of that. It would make sense if the Mariners badly want Darvish, since he could be the team's next Japanese superstar in the event that Ichiro's almost finished. It would also make sense if the Mariners do not badly want Darvish, since Darvish is a question mark, and an expensive domestic player like Prince Fielder might be more of a sure thing. Daisuke Matsuzaka, and all.
It's hard for me to see how the team could afford both Darvish and Fielder, given the current assumed budget, or even anything close to the current assumed budget. Darvish is going to get paid. Fielder is going to get paid. You know how hard it is to come up with ways to squeeze Fielder into the available space? Darvish wouldn't help. To get both would require a substantial payroll hike.
Is it either/or? Should it be either/or? Conveniently, while the Fielder sweepstakes seem to have a ways to go, we'll know what's going on with Darvish soon. His team will have four business days to decide whether or not to accept the high bid. Then someone will hold his rights, be it the Rangers, the Blue Jays, the Mariners, or someone else. I'm sure Scott Boras is very interested to see who wins this thing.
When it comes to deciding which of Darvish and Fielder would be a better fit with the Mariners, an answer can't be given without having some understanding of their contracts. It isn't nearly as simple as saying that the Mariners need more offense, not more pitching. For one thing, no matter what the last few seasons have suggested, it really is about adding overall value, not runs scored. For another thing, the Mariners' pitching staff is hardly spectacular. It's Felix, Pineda, and stuff, and while there are prospects on the way, they're still prospects. If Darvish is a great pitcher, he could be a great help.
Ultimately, Darvish is more difficult to project than Fielder is. The Mariners could have a better idea of what to expect from Fielder than from Darvish. So that makes Fielder a little more "safe". But if the Mariners sense that Fielder might cost them way too much, Darvish might be a reasonable alternative. He's a young talent who could be under team control for a while. Just as good a fit for a team like the Mariners.
This is all so speculative. I apologize for wasting your time, if you feel like I wasted your time. I've seen the Mariners advanced as a Darvish dark horse, and it makes sense, but we just don't know, and can't know. Fortunately, we'll find out soon. Everything will make a lot more sense soon. Maybe the Mariners get Darvish, maybe they get Fielder, maybe they get neither or maybe they get both, but these guys have to land somewhere. Hang on for just a little bit more.
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I saw video of him with the radar gun ranging from 150 kph to 100 kph
150 is about 93+mph, 100 kph is around 61 mph. This guy is like the bastard step-child of not-quite Felix and Jamie Moyer.
Sick.
Posting the winning bid is a good idea...
…doesn’t mean we ultimately have to sign him. If it seems the asking price is too much, or we end up getting Fielder, we just fake like we made a good-faith effort, don’t sign him. We get the posting $ back (bonus: no competitor gets him either!)
win/win
Are you sure about that?
For some reason, I don’t think we get the posting money back at all.
You get the posting money back if you fail to sign. But I think they'd actually want to see a good faith offer.
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by Kenneth Arthur on Dec 13, 2011 3:44 PM PST up reply actions
The A's never really had a good faith offer last year and no one came down on them for it
Not that I think the M’s should go that route, but I just wanted to bring it up for clarity.
The Athletics had until Tuesday, 2 p.m. Japan time, to close the deal but the Japanese ace appears to have lost his motivation to play for the team after questioning its seriousness to sign him. Iwakuma is scheduled to give a press conference on Wednesday.
That could be what finally breaks the obscenely stupid posting process
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
I remember hearing something about Oakland doing this a couple years ago.
Here is a blog post about it at the time. It doesn’t say anything about good faith or not, but it does mention that Oakland would get the posting fee back.
It seems like if people question: "Well should we really spend money or use resources on pitching because we need hitting?" would really just come down to "Well, if I said you could have the number one pitching prospect in baseball would you like that?"
Because that’s what Darvish probably is. He’ll just be a very expensive prospect. One that I hope the M’s put a competitive bid on. If you fail to sign after winning the posting process, full refund! Having a surplus of young pitching is great because so many pitching prospects run into problems, would be nice to see the M’s give themselves that many more shots at a great 5-man rotation.
I still find the posting process to be weird and unbalanced, thinking, “Why don’t the Yankees just always post a really high bid on anyone interesting?” But then, it doesn’t always happen that the Yankees do post the highest bid. So I guess it works, somehow. It would be one thing to have a live auction, bidding against each other, and I’m not envious of the decision to say “Okay, we really want Darvish, lets submit this…” Is it $10 million too low? $20 million too high?! It would be cool to see behind-the-scenes.
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But it won't quite work that way.
When Felix re-signed, the Mariners had a good idea what he was capable of as a Major League pitcher. That isn’t in any way true for Darvish. He shouldn’t be paid like one of the best pitchers in baseball and in all likelihood won’t be paid like one of the best pitchers in baseball.
Would Darvish / his agent share that view?
Or will he assume that whoever wins the posting fee will overpay for his services? I’d think that he’s still young enough to sit out another year if he doesn’t like what he hears.
Darvish is a good baseball player, I hear the Mariners need those.
Also, a lot of people worry about Fielder being an albatross contract near the end of it. Even though Darvish is a pitcher, you could argue it’s a safer bet, he’s only 25, and he’s been pretty consistent for the last four seasons (207, 200, 182, and 202 IP)
I don't think pitchers are ever safer bets.
...and now I'm here
Although I have no numbers to back this up.
...and now I'm here
Well generally, yes.
But Darvish has proven some consistency over the past four years, and Fielder is overweight, and has a father’ career arc to compare him to (although that proves very little)
If you have player A (25 year old pitching prospect) and player b (27 slugging 1st basemen) I think 9 out of 10 times player b is the safer investment. But in this case I don’t think it’s that simple. It could be argued either way.
Everything is arguable.
Each scenario carries a certain amount of risk. I personally don’t know enough about Darvish or his supposed cost in order to determine which carries the most risk, but I know that each scenario could either turn out good or bad. I don’t think there’s enough to say he’s a safer bet, but my personal opinion is that people get a little too carried away with Fielders size/who is father is. Not very many teams wanted David Ortiz at 27 either.
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by Kenneth Arthur on Dec 13, 2011 4:44 PM PST up reply actions
Very true, that's kindof my point, you could argue that one is a safer bet than the other, and until we see both of their careers unfold, we can't be too certain about anything.
Peronally, I think Darvish is a, albeit VERY slightly safer bet than Fielder. In about 5-7 years we’ll know who was right.
Also, just for clarification, Ortiz is about 40 pounds lighter than Fielder, and has never cost more than 13.25 million per year, but I understand why you bring him up, people have been concerned about his weight and it hasn’t materialized as a big problem.
A lot can be said for his switch to a vegetarian diet
I was raised a full-fledged omnivore till I was about 12, then I ended up subscribing to a completely vegan diet for six or seven years, and I can honestly say that I’ve never been healthier. I am utterly convinced that a vegetarian or even vegan diet is by far the healthiest way to live, though ashamedly I don’t eat that way now.
This isn’t to say it’s impossible to be healthy otherwise, or that just because Prince is a veggie, he’ll have a markedly different career path. But I can say that regardless of his size, a vegetarian athlete has a very good chance of staying healthy and productive later in life, compared to his meat-eating peers. This article by Jonah Keri is pretty fascinating.
by Matt Erickson on Dec 13, 2011 5:00 PM PST up reply actions
As a felllow vegetarian...
… I’m sorry to report that apparently Prince has dropped from our ranks. There was talk during the NLCS that he hung out at a famous ribs place in St. Louis. Apparently he hasn’t talked about it much, just quietly went back to eating meat occassionally.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring". ~Rogers Hornsby
by extavernmouse on Dec 13, 2011 8:59 PM PST up reply actions
If Prince only eats grass fed beef, sign him up! I'd love to see him at PCC!
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
My stance on Fielder has changed.
STAY AWAY! I HAVE INSIDE KNOWLEDGE THAT HE’S GOING TO GET REALLY BAD SOON!
by Matt Erickson on Dec 14, 2011 12:53 AM PST up reply actions
Has there been any research done regarding father/son playing careers?
As far as how their performance correlates with age?
Darvish is an exciting, big-risk big-reward talent. I'd be both thrilled and nervous if the Mariners got him.
The posting fee will probably turn out to be a bit crippling, but there’s a good chance that he’ll be worth it.
Of course, signing Darvish probably means NOT signing Fielder. If Fielder does not sign with the Rangers, then I think I could be okay with that.
This team really needs at least two big bats, though. Those would be hard to afford with Darvish on the payroll. I just can’t see this team contending without a legit 4 hole and 5 hole hitter. The Mariners are probably going to have to open their wallets for at least one power hitter if this team is going to compete in the next few years.
I used to be down on the idea of adding Fielder and risking a lot of money, in general. Now, I’m actually leaning the other way. I’m down on the idea of the Mariners allowing themselves to be kicked around for the next 10 years. I know it would be a risky investment, but I think it would be worth it for this team to seriously go after both Fielder and Darvish. Adding a big bat and a #1 or #2 starter means this team could legitimately contend soon.
"Perhaps the worst comment I've ever seen on LL." - sanford_and_son.
by Ride the Apocalypse on Dec 13, 2011 4:19 PM PST reply actions
"hard it is to come up with ways to squeeze Fielder into the available space"
Nice fat Joke.
I’m confused about the idea of a separate fund. Aren’t all on-field expenses ultimately a means to improve the team’s bottom line, such that marketability and talent are the same from a cost standpoint? Additionally, the percentage, if any, that the team is willing to subtract from short and long term profitability in order to win (when able to contend) factors into the on-field budget. As long as on-field costs are linked to financial constraints linked to profitability, how is there any separation? If Darvish’s extra marketability effectively lowers his cost from a profit standpoint, the same considerations about spending to acquire talent apply. If a 5 win pitcher with extra marketability ultimately costs the same as a common 3 win pitcher, the scenario about how much the team is willing to spend to acquire talent and win should be the same, right?
Does the Crotch
of Darvish’s pants require special elastic or spandex? Looking at that leg extension in the photo, it seems it could be useful in the recoil from the pitch back to a fielding position. Or necessary to accomodate.
I'm just going to convince myself that Yamauchi has a separate budget for Japanese players--and that he REALLY wants Darvish.
Then I’m also going to believe that the M’s go the distance to buy Prince.
And with Darvish, Pineda then becomes the main piece to bring in the disgruntled Hanley Ramirez.
Doesn’t that feel good?
Please keep in mind that the league in Japan is not the major leagues.
I lived there for a summer and followed my favorite baseball team, the Hanshin Tigers, the whole season. NPB is a league where aces drafted out of high school can come in right away the following year and be productive with no minor league experience.
Not to take anything away from Darvish, because I was there during his second year and he looked great even then, but I’d be hesitant to commit big-time money to an un-major-league-proven pitcher.
It kind of gives us flexibility
If we sign Darvish and he is able to pan out as a star, then we have even more pitching flexibility and can trade premier talent there for hitting. Pineda is semi-moveable at that point (even though I really like him).
We could do that and sign Fielder, i think. Or trade a package of Pineda and a bunch of other stuff for Votto or some such craziness.
Anyway – the way this whole thing works is dumb. But the Mariners should put a good sized bid in, i think. There isn’t a ton of reason not to try. More talent to the pile.
Patrick Newman of NPB Tracker wrote this email that River Avenue Blues published (They even give a shout-out to our own Jeff Sullivan)
The post is a good read and worth reading in full, but here is the email that Newman sent:
First of all, you have a really good memory.
My assessment of Darvish was based on what I saw last season (2010). My big concerns were that he seemed to go to his vertical slider (which is really more like a power curve) quite a bit, and my perception was that he was leaving a lot of them hanging over the middle of the plate. NPB hitters seemed to foul those pitches back a lot of the time, and he wouldn’t get away with those types against MLB hitters. Also last year, he showed a lot of 90-92 mph fastballs, and would top out around 95.
This season he was a lot better. The most obvious difference was his fastball velocity, which was more consistently around 94 and touched 97 on his best days. His cutter seemed to take a step forward this year, giving him three pitches above 90 mph with movement (2-seamer, 4-seamer, cutter). I think the velocity gains are real, as he added 10 kg of strength to his frame last offseason. I didn’t really see the same mistakes with his slider this year, he actually looked like he was using all his stuff effectively. There would be times when decent hitters would start to catch up and foul off his harder stuff, and he’d come right back with a slow curve or softer slider, and the hitter would be helpless. So he looked better overall this year, and my concerns about his mistake pitches and velocity are mostly gone. He’ll certainly still make the odd mistake, as he’s not a robot, but I’m more optimistic about him than I have been of anyone in the past.
Most of these are eyeball-level observations, drawn from memory of the games I watched during the season. So grains of salt apply. Here’s some data for reference and additional context: http://npbtracker.com/data/player.php?p_id=242
This doesn’t mean that Darvish is without question marks. All the usual stuff applies — five-day rotation, different ball, different mound, facing batters that can actually hit home runs, being prepared mentally, coping with travel, etc. I have the impression that Nippon Ham has really let Darvish do his own thing — he tends to tweak his delivery a lot, more than any other pitcher I can think of offhand. Who knows if an MLB pitching coach is going to be cool with that? Also keep in mind that Darvish is going to have more pressure and attention than possibly any player that has preceded him. Ichiro was stalked relentlessly by the Japanese media when he joined the Mariners, but I don’t think the Americans necessarily expected much from him. American fans have been anticipating Darvish for years, so he’ll have the Japanese insanity and the American expectations to live up to. I think he will be successful though, and I hope he is.
by Decatur on Dec 13, 2011 5:04 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
Good grief, he added 22 pounds of muscle in one offseason??
by Matt Erickson on Dec 13, 2011 5:08 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe you say that in jest but could it be true?
That’s a difficult amount of weight to gain in a matter of a few months.
Aaron Curry is the first Seahawk since Walter Jones to have a legitimate shot at Hall of Fame induction - John Morgan
by Fearless Frog on Dec 14, 2011 2:53 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Not really.
When you’re bulking up, a healthy rate of adding weight is about a pound to a pound and a half a week. If the Japanese offseason overlaps with ours (don’t know OTOH), he’d have November through February, 16-17 weeks to add it. That’s pretty well within the normal range if you’re working hard at it.
Just imagining his vertical slider against MLB hitters makes me happy.
M's fan newly relocated to SF My homepage
Felix, Pineda, Darvish, then who? Vargas and Beavan.
The only other two pitchers to get starts were Furbush and Vasquez.
I could see Vargas getting dealt at the deadline if any of the kids are ready, but the M’s need 5 starters and only currently have 2 who have made more than 30 MLB starts on the roster.
Vargas is needed while Darvish and name-your-#5-guy get settled, isn't he?
Unless they think that Vargas is part of a package to get an above-average position player, I don’t see why Vargas would move until at least midseason, if not next winter.
Besides, I want to at least once see Vargas do with the Angels what he did with the Phillies this past summer, complete with a hearty “fuck those motherfuckers” after striking out Pujols.
A little off topic but....
What happened to Hisashi Iwakuma? Does anyone know if he is being posted again? Or is he even a free agent this year?
I'm pretty sure he's a free agent.
I found this page google searching a little bit ago. At the bottom of the page it has a list of news and what not. Interestingly it says that he was interested in the Mariners and Oakland back in October
The Mariners should just start a baseball academy in Iran and find and sign the next dozen Yu Darvishs
I imagine that Iran is incredibly under-scouted for baseball talent
Stats are not a euphemism for tits.
they're a bit sensitive about their borders though...
Alternate:
US government claims no knowledge of downed aircraft; given where it was manufactured, it probably had something to do with that trixie Mariner front office. I mean, it’s true their international efforts are world renown.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Dec 13, 2011 11:49 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I watched some Darvish highlights on YouTube.
Really impressive movement on his pitches.
Aaron Curry is the first Seahawk since Walter Jones to have a legitimate shot at Hall of Fame induction - John Morgan
by Fearless Frog on Dec 14, 2011 2:55 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Japan's team
I think that to compete through the 2010s and twenties, the Mariners need to cultivate a devoted fanbase who will visit Safeco, watch the broadcasts and online streams and buy Jerseys. The best way to do that, of course, is to win, but another good way to do that, IMO, is to be Japan’s MLB team. if we continue to sign the best Japanese players, we have a good shot at continuing to be that team in the coming decade – which believe me is worth REAL revenue dollars.
i worked at Safeco 2000-03, and saw a HUGE increase in Japanese fans those first few years of Ichiro’s tenure. i just remember whole sections of Japanese at Safeco… awesome. Then Matsui went to NYC and Daisuke signed in Boston, and we lost those fans, right around the time that the Mariners started to lose. so obviously there were other factors. but with our Japanese owners, and relative proximity/friendship with Japan, we should be more deliberate about that, IMO.
thoughts?
Having Japanese fans visit Seattle and buy merchandise while at the park would be great.
However, it’s my understanding that international sales are split equally among all MLB teams. So money for all the merchandise or tv broadcasts sold in Japan doesn’t significantly boost the Mariners bottom line. That’s not to say I don’t like the idea of Seattle becoming “Japan’s team”.
No matter where you go, there you are.
if you are correct
(and i have no reason to doubt that you are), this makes most of my argument invalid. the uptick in additional tickets and merch at Safeco can’t add up to that much… if we got to keep additional revenue for Mariners broadcasts and merch sold abroad, thats a different story.
in any case, i hope we get him. while i don’t deny that we need a bat or two in our lineup, i think its wise to focus on building great pitching staffs and good defense if you are playing half your games in Safeco.
Bidding on Darvish ends in about an hour. I hope the Mariners bid at least $35-45 million.
M's fan newly relocated to SF My homepage
One strategy might be...
to offer a high posting fee ($45-50 mil), try to sign him to a deal for $10 mil a year or so and if he won’t take that, look to trade him to another team (like NYY). While they probably wouldn’t be able to get Montero, they might get something useful and if nothing can be worked out, he goes back to Japan.
Not even close
Can’t trade either him or the rights to him. I don’t know what the stipulations are with posted Japanese players, but I’d be surprised if a team would be able to trade them within a year of signing them, like most international free agents or draftees. At best, after June 15th or something.
by nathaniel dawson on Dec 15, 2011 9:43 PM PST up reply actions

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