10 things the Mariners can improve in 2012
I'm working on a paper for a college class on the development of baseball (and they say college is easy these days...) in which I'm to examine the top ten things my team—in this case the beloved M's—can do to improve itself. This could be short term/right-away or more adoptive of a long view; but best hedge bets and amass a combination of both. Aside from classic "build with the young talent the organization has all while somehow getting more offensive oomph without overpaying" answer," I would love to open the floor to a discussion. I'm obviously trying to tack a serious course so "sign Prince Fielder for 10 yr contractzomg!!!" and "make Ichiro assume his natural dragon form" will not be among the feasible options. I'm talking about tangible on-field and off-field improvements from the player personnel angle to ballpark promotions.
I come to LL as a haven (heh, HHaven) of some of the most thoughtful fans in baseball. Have at it!
/this is a shameless crowdsource, but I am very curious as a longtime reader, not-so-frequent commenter what the hive mind has to say. Oh, and once I finish the paper I will be sure to share it (in abridged form) with everyone here for your reading and critical pleasure.
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Here's my ten:
1. E
2. V
3. E
4. R
5. Y
6. T
7. H
8. I
9. N
10. G
by Willay on Nov 28, 2011 7:05 PM PST reply actions 31 recs
Off the top of my head
- resolve the Chone Figgins situation. It’s a distraction for the team, for whatever that’s worth, and he’s bad and expensive
- find more starting pitching depth. The future looks great and the present looks good, but is Jason Vargas a replacement level starter or the guy who started #2 in 2011 on one of the better staffs in the AL?
- figure out what’s wrong with Franklin Gutierrez. I miss Guti that could hit. That guy is good.
- let the younger, MLB ready players have a chance. This might be more geared for 2013 than 2012, but between Seager, Robinson, Jaso, Wells, Saunders, Carp and Smoak, you would think at least two or three of those guys have to be real players
- don’t mess with Brendan Ryan. He is awesome
by seattlebruin on Nov 28, 2011 7:10 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
While one should never draft for need...
I was surprised by the emphasis on pitching in the past draft and the fact that, given the lack of bats, there were rumours that we didn’t pursue Cron all that strongly.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
by JY on Nov 28, 2011 9:53 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with the need for bats, and advocate for a better approach
to hitting in the early minors. I am curious if we find ourselves in a tight spot because we have relied very heavily on international scouting (and signings) to bolster our high-level hitting talent in the low minors, yet, it’s typical for Latin American “draftees” to lack plate discipline. I know being Latin doesn’t preclude learning patience at the plate and contact skills, but I would love to see these skills emphasized. Have any of the hitters scouted by Bob Engle matriculated to the majors yet? (Curiosity, not meant to imply anything.) I too was flabbergasted that we didn’t pursue Cron more aggressively. If we were going to select him in the 3rd round, you would think you would be prepared to spend on him.
We didn't sign the previous year's third-rounder either.
And Stanek might be a first round pick in another year.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
by JY on Nov 30, 2011 1:09 AM PST up reply actions
Well
1. Offense
2. Defense
3. Pitching
4. Conditioning
5. Fundamentals
6. Third base
7. Back end of the rotation
8. Left and/or center field
9. Bench
10. Bullpen
HH stands for Halos Heaven, you idiot
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by Corco on Nov 28, 2011 8:43 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Seriously, though
Echoing Kermit’s point below- a more standardized coaching philosophy from top to bottom. While it’s certainly good to be exposed to multiple viewpoints, I think it does more harm than good to Jose Lopez when he’s told at one level he’s a pull-heavy power hitter and at another that he’s supposed to be hitting to the opposite field. That may have been corrected to some extent with the new regime, but I can’t imagine it’s not something that can still be improved on.
On that note- emphasizing player strengths in less skilled players. If Jack Cust is good at walking, let’s not try to make him be more aggressive at the plate, let’s encourage his plate discipline. Groom your Dustin Ackleys to be good at everything, but Miguel Olivo is Miguel Olivo. Don’t try to change him; try to emphasize his strengths.
Evaluating hitting potential. That goes without saying.
This would have been a lot easier to write in 2008. It’s hard right now because there have certainly been approach changes over the last few years, but many of them haven’t really had a chance to come to fruition yet.
Determined, Jonesing Commentor
by Corco on Nov 28, 2011 9:25 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Player development in the minor leagues with vertical integration through the system
Perhaps this has been addressed with the new regime, but perhaps not. The reporting has left me yearning for more details, and the promotion of Peguero left a lingering odor. In the past, I had the impression that our minor league development was a haphazard affair with the system leaving the players to sink or swim with little to no cohesive plan between the teams or the levels.
I don’t have any clear supporting evidence to offer, it’s just difficult for me to believe the team drafted so many players that failed to succeed. I’m of a mind that a few of them, while likely not stars, were capable of being decent players and were let down by a lack of proper coaching. Basically, I’d love to have a clearer picture of what was going on before GMZ took over, and how it has changed.
by Kermit. on Nov 28, 2011 8:58 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
Finding a way to teach Miguel Olivo plate discipline.
Or a systematic way of correcting non-US player’s approaches.
Easy
1. Bring Back Griffey
2. Bring Back Griffey
3. Bring Back Griffey
4. Bring Back Griffey
5. Bring Back Griffey
6. Bring Back Griffey
7. Bring Back Griffey
8. Bring Back Griffey
9. Bring Back Griffey
10. Bring Back Griffey
Sponsor of the Griffey Challenge?
I can’t believe you don’t remember all he’s done for this site.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
by JY on Nov 28, 2011 9:48 PM PST up reply actions
or to this site.
You know, either/or.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
by JY on Nov 28, 2011 9:48 PM PST up reply actions
Common misspelling of "Griffey!"
...and now I'm here
by CapSea on Nov 28, 2011 10:02 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh balls, I get it now.
Oliv!o.
...and now I'm here
An answer containing seriousness. Use it or don't
1. Raise payroll. Strong correlation between spending lots and winning lots.*
2. Take risks. Getting lucky on a free agent or two goes a long way. I’ve sort of forgotten what that’s like.
3. Build the team to fit the park. If you have a hard time building the team to fit the park, change the park dimensions and build the new team to fit the new park.
4. Don’t turn over the front office every three or four years. Even if a couple nasty seasons get mixed in. Find someone with the right processes, and then accept the bad results with the good.
5. Draft well. Duh.
6. through 10. are all a variation of “raise payroll.”
(1. does not apply if the GM Silvas and Bautistas your roster every off-season.)
Ten things? That's a lot. Let's see if I can get to 10.
- Raise Payroll – More money always means more opportunity.
- Drop Chone Figgins – He should not be here anymore.
- Work on Stubbornness – The front office has good ideas, but they need to learn how to let go when one doesn’t work out.
- Trade Brandon League – He’s expensive and not worth what his arbitration contract will be to a team with a pile and limited payroll.
- Find Replacements/Backups for Ichiro/Guti – Both might improve, but banking on it is a bad idea, and backup plans aren’t the front office specialty.
- Stock Up Hitting Talent – We don’t have this. We should try to get it somehow.
- Change the Dimensions of Safeco - May be a good idea!
- Give Healthier Food to Minor Leaguers – <-That.
- Mandatory Intense Training in the Minor Leagues – As others have said, teaching players how to walk, forcing significant physical training, etc. Minor leagues should be a breeding ground for major leaguers, not a place to go when one looks like they might do well.
- Push Low Cost/Multiple Year Contracts - It may not be possible after Evan Longoria, but the low cost/multiple year contract strategy has its advantages with less downside. This should be pursued with all good young players.
...and now I'm here
Do you have a pointer to this college course?
Curious to read the syllabus and similar info online.
Do what I did and watch the movie version. I think it stars Julia Stiles and the Joker and they filmed it in Tacoma.
follow @casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on Nov 29, 2011 9:04 AM PST reply actions 3 recs
Quit making decisions by consensus and keep the non-baseball people (Armstrong, Lincoln, etc.) far away from the mix.
#1. The best way to bring back the fans and make money is to win. Jack Z should have carte blanche to make the moves he thinks will build a long term winner without interference from the suits. No more aging superstar lifelines—-we did that with Griffey and a rerun with Ichiro would be counterproductive.
#2. Reduce beer prices at the park.
Alternatively, draft players with better plate discipline.
A lot of the particularly egregious strikeout offenders in system were brought in by the previous regime.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
by JY on Nov 29, 2011 10:18 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Then you'd probably have to stop scouting the Dominican Republic and, to a lesser extent, Venezuela.
Good luck getting anything done on the international front.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
by JY on Nov 30, 2011 9:36 PM PST up reply actions
Now we're just going to circle back to Bender's argument.
The old trope was that you can’t walk your way off the island, meaning the Dominican Republic, but the same can be representative of other countries. International free agents are often under the mentality that they have to swing, have to hit in order to get noticed because if they’re patient and just stand there, they’ll be regarded as, I don’t know, lazy.
This can be true outside of Latin America as well, what with the various European players coming in, though it seems to be less prevalent in Asia (we have a sample size of two suggesting that Korean hitters are not averse to walking, and a handful of NPB imports that have shown the same, though I don’t know if that’s quite as good a comparison). It’s a systemic thing and if the players are conditioned to do one particular thing in order to have success as a hitter in baseball, you’re going to have a heck of a time trying to convince them to do otherwise. I’ve watched plenty of players with international backgrounds get “conditioned” not to swing in the early part of the season and then go straight back to hacking within a month or two. It’s a hard thing to do, and we shouldn’t underestimate how hard it is.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
Thinking about it a little more...
it could be that the international environment itself is largely counterproductive to learning plate discipline simply because few pitchers can throw strikes and those that can may rely more on their opponents not catching up to them than pure command. Going back through the historical team stats for the minor league organization, it’s pretty common to see the DSL and the VSL ahead of the other short-season affiliates in walks (in 2008, The DSL M’s outpaced the full-season High Desert Mavericks. Let us pause for a minute to absorb how insane this is) and I can guarantee you that this wasn’t a result of having kids with good plate discipline down there.
As another example, Greg Halman ( :( ) tore the Dutch League in half as a fifteen-year-old and that’s the best league Europe has to offer. Then he got to the U.S. and started at the lowest level and didn’t due extraordinarily well there, his strikeout tendencies present then and his problems with drawing walks becoming more pronounced as he moved up.
We might regard this in the same way that we regard most high school baseball stats as unintelligible simply because the quality of the competition is so erratic. At the same time, those kids presumably have someone encouraging them to draw a walk now and then, and have pitchers capable of locating the strike zone, neither of which can easily be said for the international baseball community.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
I agree with Jay. I feel the same way about plate discipline that I do about a passing mentality in basketball.
Kids who absolutely swing at everything just aren’t likely to suddenly decide to stop doing that just like Russell Westbrook and Gilbert Arenas won’t suddenly start showing discretion with his shot selection.
1. Allow Ichiro to design one set of alternate uniforms
2. Explore unexplored markets
3. Lower beer prices and raise bathroom prices
4. Deport Geoff Baker on trumped up smuggling charges
5. Suspend Habeas Corpus and lock up Chone Figgins
6. Sell special picnic seats in the field of play
7. Add rotten tomatoes to peanut vendor’s inventory
8. Institute shame circle where strike-out offenders get to stand while being fan-pelted with above tomatoes
9. Change Mariner Moose to Mariner Wolf. Start wolf petting zoo. Wolves are better
10. Acquire hitting talent through free agency and/or trades
by Craptastic-J on Nov 29, 2011 10:53 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
As much fun as the idea of allowing Ichi to design uniforms may be, the shirts he was given credit for last year were fucking awful.
I think he should be allowed to choose the components of the uniform from one of his favorite clothing stores, though.
Fuck High Desert
I don’t actually know what the stadium is called, but it’s a crazy hitter’s park that encourages bad habits in hitters and pitchers. It is totally unhelpful to player development to learn the game in an environment so different from major league baseball in general and Safeco field in particular.
Since you can’t probably use the word “fuck” in your essay, you could say “fix”. Fix it to make it play like a neutral park in which R/9 is about 4.5.
So what you're trying to say is
“don’t have a baseball league in an incredibly dry area where wind gusts regularly hit 60 mph.”
It’s not Adelanto – it’s the entire Cal League in the High Desert
by seattlebruin on Nov 30, 2011 8:10 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think the only other team in the High Desert proper is Lancaster.
Or how would you define it? I know they were talking about building a park in Apple Valley, which might not be that much better, but that idea was shot down and the latest was that they were negotiating to improve the park itself. I don’t know that the proposed move to Chico ever had legs.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
by JY on Nov 30, 2011 9:42 PM PST up reply actions
I think you're correct that the Lancaster is the only other team in the HD proper
but most of the Inland Empire is pretty similar in geography. If I’m remembering right, the southern half of the Cal League is all pretty extreme hitters parks and the north pretty neutral
by seattlebruin on Nov 30, 2011 11:19 PM PST up reply actions
Let's go to Statcorner and find out!
I know that Lancaster and High Desert are the big offenders in the South, and the North has Bakersfield which, in addition to whatever climate issues, is just a shitty field in general. And then Inland Empire, which is in the South division, is known for being pitcher-friendly…
North:
Bakersfield: wOBA (L/R) 102/98, HR (L/R) 123/124 (severely reduces triples)
Modesto: wOBA 97/98, HR 49/40 (increased triples, particularly for right-handers)
San Jose: wOBA 88/95, HR 74/110 (less of everything)
Stockton: wOBA 102/98, HR 166/137 (HRs the only significant addition, walks go up some)
Visalia: wOBA 103/104, HR 112/130 (fewer triples, some more doubles)
South:
High Desert: wOBA 113/118, HR 151/160 (LOL!)
Inland Empire: wOBA 94/90, HR 56/63 (lots of triples, not many doubles)
Lake Elsinore: wOBA 97/96, HR 66/52 (more doubles for left-handers, triples for right-handers)
Lancaster: wOBA 106/113, HR 114/139 (more triples for right-handers)
Rancho Cucamonga: wOBA 100/95, HR 105/87 (park in general just really favors lefties)
Huh. So it looks like there’s increased offense in the south, broadly, but actually a higher incidence of home runs in the north, it’s just that the south’s parks tend to be more extreme.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
I can tell you off the top of my head for Lake Elsinore that the wall in RF is 25 feet high and the LF line has a Metrodome hilarious corner, so that explains some stuff
plus, Padres prospects don’t hit dingers. Gotta get ready for Petco!
by seattlebruin on Dec 2, 2011 11:21 AM PST up reply actions
I don't think that park can be fix.
They should just put it down.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
by JY on Nov 30, 2011 9:36 PM PST up reply actions
*fixed
Cripes.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
by JY on Nov 30, 2011 9:54 PM PST up reply actions

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