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On David Ortiz And The Seattle Mariners

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In a lot of ways, this talk was inevitable. David Ortiz has long been considered among those who got away, as the Mariners traded a young Ortiz for Dave Hollins in 1996. Ortiz, obviously, wound up blossoming into one of the more productive and recognizable hitters in the league. Now, Ortiz is heading into free agency, and the Mariners are coming off a year in which they had baseball's worst offense, following a year in which they had baseball's worst offense. Of course people were going to want to talk about Ortiz. There could be a fit, and why not explore any fit?

Immediately, Ortiz seems like a healthy compromise between those who are all about Prince Fielder, and those who don't want to make a big commitment to a slugger without defensive value. Ortiz wouldn't require Fielder's nine-figure, long-term contract, because Ortiz is a pure DH who turns 36 in a month. With Ortiz, you're talking about one or two years, or maybe - maybe - three years, max. It's a lot easier to swallow.

And it's readily apparent what good he could do. Over the last ten years, Ortiz has had exactly one season in which he posted a sub-120 OPS+. That was in 2009. In the two years to follow, he posted a combined 145 OPS+. He's left-handed, he hits for power to all fields, he has a good approach, he just dramatically cut down on his strikeouts...Ortiz is one of those guys who can transform a lineup. Analytically, that doesn't mean a whole lot, but Ortiz's is a name that grabs the eyeballs.

Of course, we know that Ortiz could help the Mariners. That isn't the issue. The issue is whether he'd be worth the investment, and whether he'd even be willing to sign with Seattle in the first place. It's kind of up to him, after all.

What kind of contract could Ortiz be looking for? What kind of contract could Ortiz end up settling for? That's hard to predict. On the one hand, he's coming off a $12.5 million salary, and he had a fantastic offensive season. He's probably going to want at least that much money. But on the other hand, the pool of potential suitors is limited. Alex Speier posted a great rundown this morning, which you can read here. There aren't going to be a lot of teams in the market for a big-time DH. The Red Sox are the biggest potential suitor, but behind them, it's thin, so Ortiz could end up getting paid less than he wants.

He's not going to be cheap, though. He's unlikely to sign the Hideki Matsui contract(s). He'd cost the bulk of what the Mariners will have available. This is a DH who'll be 36 (and a half!) next April. Are the Mariners one David Ortiz away from contention? No, probably not. And then there's the matter of Mike Carp, who'd be blocked at DH. Carp isn't exactly a guy the Mariners ought to be planning around right now, but it's a consideration. If the Mariners were to sign Ortiz, what would they do with Carp? Is this a road down which they ought to travel?

And then there's the matter of Ortiz's preference. If the Mariners end up interested in Ortiz, they won't be the only team interested in Ortiz. Why would Ortiz want to sign with them instead of somebody else? Sure, they could offer money, and he's good friends with Felix. But Ortiz presumably wants to win, and the Mariners just finished with the AL's second-worst record. It's a tough sell. Maybe Ortiz would jump at the chance to play in a zero-pressure environment, I don't know, but he probably wants a good shot at the playoffs, and it might take extra money to convince him that Seattle's where he should go. Extra money of which the Mariners don't have a ton - extra money that might be better spent elsewhere.

Everything above seems kind of disconnected. It's Friday afternoon, and I hate writing on Friday afternoons, because my brain doesn't work very well. Hopefully, all of my thoughts came across. In conclusion, with Ortiz, I'm very much open to the idea, but not at a high price, because he's an aging DH and the Mariners only have so much money to spend. And if it were to take a high price to lure Ortiz to Seattle, well, obviously it depends on the specifics, but that seems like a deal-breaker. Signing Ortiz to an expensive two- or three-year contract doesn't seem like the kind of move this team should make.

Interestingly, Jim Thome mentioned in September that he'd like to play again next season. Thome got a base salary of $1.6 million in 2010, and $3 million in 2011. He's going to be a free agent. I have no idea if Thome would be willing to play on the west coast, and I have no idea what kind of market there will be for his services, but he's an appealing idea. He'd be affordable, he'd offer an approximation of what Ortiz can do, and he wouldn't be looking to play every day. He could start 80 or 90 or 100 games, leaving time for Carp if Carp were still around. I'm not going to sit here and pursue this any further, but it's a possibility.

Anyway. This upcoming Mariners offseason is impossible to predict. It's impossible to predict because there are so many different ways the front office could go. But it sure is fun to think about some of the options.

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Do you think a Carp/Wells platoon is a terrible idea for LF?

You can always replace Carp’s defense with Wells late in games, and Carp not starting all the time in LF leaves him open to spell Smoak and whoever our DH is at those positions (especially if it’s someone like Thome, who wouldn’t start consecutive games often).

M's fan newly relocated to SF My homepage

by lailaihei on Oct 21, 2011 4:22 PM PDT reply actions  

Only if you believe that Wells can't be a productive regular in his own right, and I'm not willing to claim that's the case.

If you think that any or all of Carp, Wells, and Smoak have potential, then DH is not necessarily the position to be upgrading. Maybe if Ortiz was on a Thome contract and could be sat without problem in the event that all three of those players succeed (something I’d be totally game for) but Ortiz brings the same problems that signing Prince Fielder would bring, at least in 2012, only for less of a long term commitment.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Oct 21, 2011 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do you really think Wells project below-average?

SSS but 0.6 WAR in 116 PAs, vs Carp’s 0.5 WAR in 313 PAs (9th in wRC+ for DHs). Plus Carp’s was BABIP inflated while Wells’ was about as bad as you get due to medical reasons (36% K%).

by valencia on Oct 21, 2011 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't agree with the notion that either player projects to be below average, with the exception of the positional adjustment.

I suspect Carp will not be worth more than 1.5 wins in the DH spot, but then he’s free so I’m pretty pleased with that number. Wells with his defense is easily going to project greater than 2 wins. Marcel projected a 121 wRC last year. ZIPS projected him poorly, but ZIPS always projects young players poorly. I see no reason to assume that if defense is included Wells is a below average projection.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Oct 21, 2011 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

He's buddy-buddy with Ichiro also, to some extent

If I remember right, Ortiz is usually the one who provides the cue for Ichiro’s infamous pre-game locker room speech to the AL team in the ASG.

In so much as this sort of thing matters.

by Chris_FB on Oct 21, 2011 4:30 PM PDT reply actions  

This seems like it would be a lot of fun.

It also seems like it would have enormous bust potential. Considering, you know, age, and the recent history of Mariner signings.

by mamaxmax on Oct 21, 2011 4:31 PM PDT reply actions  

Thank you Jeff for a great write-up on Big Papi.

As you wrote, he is one of those guys who could transform a line-up, especially one as pitiful as the Mariners, recently one of the lowest scoring teams in MLB.

And Ortiz coming here doesn’t necessary mean we throw Carp away. Carp/Wells in LF sounds good to me. Let’s not limit our options with overly optimistic projections.

And I love what I can discern of his character. Big Papi would be a great big brother figure to our gangle of young players.
And as written above he also seems to have a great relationship with Ichiro.

Please make it happen, M’s!

by daveinny on Oct 21, 2011 5:06 PM PDT reply actions  

And I'm glad you brought it up,

since a while ago I was jumped on by CapSea for even daring to suggest such a thing:
http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2011/10/6/2472232/offseason-moves-position-players

There’s a better later discussion on it at the beginning of the comments here, also:
http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2011/10/17/2495068/filling-in-gaps-for-2012-via-fa

by daveinny on Oct 21, 2011 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

You may want to read the post again.

Since Jeff doesn’t say anywhere in the post that he supports signing Ortiz and he mentions numerous times all of the exact same complaints I responded to you with. This is literally cut and paste, and I suggest that from now on you read posts in full instead of misreading them and using them to support a bad argument:

In conclusion, with Ortiz, I’m very much open to the idea, but not at a high price, because he’s an aging DH and the Mariners only have so much money to spend. And if it were to take a high price to lure Ortiz to Seattle, well, obviously it depends on the specifics, but that seems like a deal-breaker. Signing Ortiz to an expensive two- or three-year contract doesn’t seem like the kind of move this team should make.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Oct 22, 2011 4:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think the key word here is "expensive".

(And as an aside, Jeff wrote, “I’m very much open to the idea” which seems a little more receptive than your sarcastic Yep. Signing old fat guys with no defensive value on expensive long term contracts is a strategy that winners implement. ).

Anyway, about the expensive part, maybe it’s hopeful thinking, but I think that 2 years, avg. 10 mill., 3 years, avg. 10 mill. each would get it done. To some people 10 million may be too expensive.
But there are estimations that we will have around 20 million dollars (if we deal League) to spend next year. And more the next, when Ichiro’s salary will go down on a new contract (or gone, if he’s not signed, which I think would be the worst mistake Z could ever make).

Would spending half of the budget room next year on the long awaited bedrock in the middle of the line-up be too much?
For the recently most offense-starved team in the whole major leagues?
This would seem a top priority, and to meet it, at least I’m not advocating signing Prince Fielder for a quarter of a billion dollars. This would be the “expensive long term contract”.

by daveinny on Oct 22, 2011 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

$10 million for an aging DH who's only value to the team is his bat? And for multiple years? Really?

The key to improving this offense is finding multiple hitters who can hit. The team is likely to make more significant improvements with the $10 million-per-year spent over the next 2 to 3 years acquiring multiple players than it is committing that money and time to a single old player who could fall off the cliff any moment (which is the very last thing this team needs any more of).

by ThundaPC on Oct 22, 2011 10:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

We need to fill 3B, C, possibly LF, and a starting pitcher. We can't be spending half our budget on a DH, or 2/3rds if League isn't dealt.

Sure, it could work if we had a budget increase, but if we are increasing the budget for a DH, we ought to be targeting Prince in that situation.

by Patrick Stites on Oct 22, 2011 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

C'mon that's just ridiculous and silly.

You have some beef with Ichiro or something?
In addition to posssibly acting as a big brother like figure to the young players I see no reason to disdain the fact that Big Papi has a good relationship to one of our star players.

It’s just a bonus in addition to the main fact that Big Papi is one of the best bats we could possibly obtain at a non-ridiculous price and non-ridiculous years (like Fielder’s and Pujol’s contracts will not be).
I want to see a happy Ichiro surrounded by similar high caliber players.

It’s just a bonus. You’re the one who tried to spin it as a decision “based on” a relationship to Ichiro.
 

by daveinny on Oct 22, 2011 1:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

I would like to have him for the right price since he seems to still have a decent amount left.

Whether he would come here at the right price is questionable though. With our $20 million max payroll room it doesn’t seem too feasible.

by Mariner John on Oct 21, 2011 6:06 PM PDT reply actions  

Depends on whether or not Jim Thome is that desparate to make 2.5 million after having earned way more than that over his career.

I’m not going to pretend to know what Jim Thome’s mindset is about playing in 2012, but most players Jim Thome’s age aren’t looking to sign with a 95-loss team, far away from his family and home, and in one of the most extreme pitcher’s parks in the game. Were I in Thome’s shoes, I’d sooner take an ST invite from a potentially competitive team than 2 million to play for a team unlikely to be relevant. Again, I don’t know what Jim Thome’s thinking/feeling, but it’s not a match I feel is remotely likely and certainly not an idea I’d get attached to.

by JLC on Oct 22, 2011 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm against buying a DH this off-season, I really don't care who it is for what price.

This team is a 70-75 win equation if everything breaks RIGHT. If things go wrong, they’re closer to 60-65.

I don’t see this team even approaching .500 or better until 2014. So, I’d wait ‘til then to pony up for a DH. Besides, as was mentioned, we already have Carp to try out in that spot so it’s not like we don’t have a DH and have to buy one.

"Perhaps the worst comment I've ever seen on LL." - sanford_and_son.

by Ride the Apocalypse on Oct 22, 2011 2:11 AM PDT reply actions  

I'm glad you posted this. I had thought of Big Papi as an alternative to the Fielder possibility.

Good points throughout. Personally, I’m a fan of Ortiz as a person (what little I know from the media) and more importantly as a ballplayer. If we could snag him at 10-12 million for one or two years, max, I like the idea. He certainly projects to be more than worth that money. Since he was a 4 win DH in 2011 without excessive “luck” or declining skills evident in his stats, it seems reasonable to project him as a three win player for the next couple o’ years.

But maybe he would cost much more, for the reasons you mentioned. This team has way too many holes to call the offseason good after picking up a single MOTO bat. I guess GMZ could spread the Ms’ cash around on a LF (though I think Wells can hold down that job regularly), 3B, SP, and C, as Dave Cameron advocates.

In the end, if it can be done in a way that Zduriencik can also upgrade a number of the other weak positions (via trade, whatever), I’m all for signing a strong hitter like Ortiz. I’m not confident about Carp in a regular role, and after the last couple years I just wanna see some fucking hitting. Is that so wrong?

by VivaAyala on Oct 22, 2011 9:33 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Thome

I’d be excited about ThOme along with whatever upgrades make it worth hiswhile to come to Seattle. I can see realistic paths to .500+ performance in 2012, assuming the team can spend a bit of money. A 2 million plus incentives ThOme would easily be a part of that. A 10 million dollar Ortiz? It would be much more difficult.

by bookbook on Oct 22, 2011 10:38 AM PDT via mobile reply actions  

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