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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Options for filling in gaps via FA?

I am generally never one to speculate who we should get for our team.  Mostly because if I did, I wouldn't be typing here... I'd be in a FO somewhere.  And because I'm not, I leave it up to them.

But in the mess that generally accompanies the off-season I thought I'd give it a shot.  And I'm well prepared for the criticism that will undoubtedly come from trying.

Star-divide

In my prior post, Building a Sustained Winner, I made the point that Z had finally dug out of the 1st hole - the one that Bavasi had dug in addition to the rebuilding process.  He's patched together what he could from the draft (Ackley, Seager), trades with what little talent was left (Guti, Carp, Ryan, Smoak, League, Vargas, Beavan), and FA (Olivo).

There's still work to be done, and I admit I do not know who's close to coming up from the minors.  So I'll go under the assumption that whomever is on our 25-man is who we'd be going into 2012 with, with no callups.

Now, to me, given the type of ballpark we have, etc.  I'd like to build a team that is run-prevention oriented with good defense and an offense that can base-hit a team to death.  If we have a lot of space in the OF, take advantage of it by getting players who can hit it to the gaps.  And similarly take advantage of it though pitching and defense.

For purposes of this argument, I'll look at the FA market.  I'm not even going to touch trades because to be honest, there's a lot of wanking going about regarding trades, and heck if I know what trades pass the smell test.  I just know what trades easily don't.

The biggest problem with FA, as I mentioned before, is that because it is "free" and open to all teams you will pay market to above-market rates for these players.  You certainly can't get all these players I'm about to mention, so you'll have to prioritize where your needs are.

Another problem with FA is that for the most part, the players available are older.  Teams have wised up in terms of keeping young players under control, so I'm pretty sure the available market of players will be on the other side of 30.

 

Catcher

Now this position is a point of contention.  A lot of people think that Olivo doesn't need replacing because he's been in their eyes the best offensive player on the team.  Other people think he is the most offensive player on the team, but in a different way (and just to clarify, I mean offensive in terms of plate discipline and PB rate).

But if we assume that if we can upgrade here, we should, I agree with Dave at USS Mariner that Chris Snyder is a good option.  Though a RHB, he is patient and has some power.  You can read what he has to say over there.

He's injury prone which helps lower his value, but he's also probably the best FA option at C - which raises his value.  Nuts.

 

Third Base

This is also a point of contention.  Some think Kyle Seager is the answer, and some even argued Alex Liddi.  But if either of them are, they aren't right now.  Both probably still need seasoning in AAA.  It's also assumed that Chone Figgins is a sunk cost now, and we can't really depend on him to bounce back at this point.

So off to looking at the FA market... and it rather sucks.  But if we're looking at a stopgap to let those players develop, we're looking at a 1-year contract or so.

But an option (and yes, I know he's a Boras client), is Marco Scutaro.  I wonder if with all the hullabaloo going on in Red Sox Nation, that they'll clean house altogether.  He has an option for 2012, but if they don't pick it up, he may be worth a S/T contract.

Yes, he hasn't played 3B since 2008, and yes he has no power that would be "expected" from the hot corner, but he does hit for average despite hitting a fair amount of balls in play (8% K and BB rate!).

Another option that will fill not only the 3B option, but OF as well is Michael Cuddyer.  In the last couple of years he's become the jack-of-all-trades, playing not just 1B, but 3B, OF and even 2B!  He's not the best fielder in the world, but he's not going to embarrass himself and he has shown good power (and not just HR either) with the ability to swipe a base here and there.  The only problem is that his year this year may price him out of our range.

 

Outfield (Specifically LF)

As mentioned before, Cuddyer is an option who can fill multiple holes (though not at the same time obviously).

Another option is David DeJesus.  Off a terrible year in Oakland, and being 32 come opening day, there is the question of decline.  Also concerning a bit is that while a low BABIP and similar plate discipline rates may mean that there's a sign of rebound, the rate that was different was his in-zone contact rate which dropped from 96.7% to 91.4%.  It's a one year decline, but you have to wonder if that will continue.  If management thinks it won't then he might be an option to consider and perhaps the terrible year he had will raise questions about his decline and lower his value a bit.

I'd suggest Josh Willingham, but the problem with him is that he can't play defense which limits him to DH.  Which then pushes Mike Carp to LF, and he's not much better out there.  Plus, his performance this year certainly raises his value probably out of our range.

One final option that could be contentious as well because people could see this as a move to get fans by obtaining a hometown player is Grady Sizemore.  Oft-injured the past 2 years the former perennial all-star has become a shadow of his former self.

The obvious question is whether there is any hope of him bouncing back.  The other issue is if we'll get use of him for the entire season.  If there is any significant question regarding either after evaluating him, we have to pass.

 

Starting Pitching

3 of our spots are filled with King Felix, Prince Pineda and Jester Jason (or Vassal Vargas?).

Okay, that was pretty bad, but the fact remains we have 2 spots to fill.  One can be filled in by Beavan it seems, so we're looking for one P.

Out of amusement I think a funny acquisition would be Edwin Jackson.  He seemed to be part of every single important trade that brought key players back to the team.  If that's the case, why not us?  We can sign him, then flip him at the deadline for players.  And obviously since he's been traded repeatedly, he's got to be a decent pitcher, and for the most part he is.  He perhaps issues walks a bit more than one would like, but he's become a groundball pitcher (even before Duncan got a hold of him).  But yes, he's a Boras client.

Paul Maholm's name has been bandied about a bit as a possibility, and given his performance last year it would seem to make sense.  An increase in his slider and change usages possibly led to the increase in swings outside the zone this past year and may be part of the reason why he has had more success than in past years.  The question is now how much will he command on the market given his year.  That is, if Pittsburgh doesn't pick up his option.

Jeff Francis has also been mentioned, and he would certainly not excite anyone.  Plus the drop in velocity across the board is concerning.  Despite that, he managed to maintain most of his peripherals (yes his K rate decreased) by apparently trading FB for changeups, though oddly enough more batters swung at pitches outside the zone (27.4% to 31.3%) and made more contact (65.3% to 76%).

I'd love Hiroki Kuroda, mostly because I've liked him since he played for the Carp, but I think he'll be one of the top FA pitchers out there.  To be honest I think he still has a couple of years left taking the Jamie Moyer route.

Speaking of which, there is Jamie Moyer.  He did say he wanted to come back, but at 49?????  I have no way of analyzing that thought.

Looking further down the list, Chris Young may be another option though having not thrown a full season for the past 4 years is a big worry.  He'd have to be signed to a Erik Bedard incentive-laden contract or no dice.  At 33, he's also running out of years.

Same with Scott Kazmir.  Though the fact that no one picked him up after clearing waivers despite being 28 may be a clear indictment of his potential going forward.

 

As I said before, if you were look at the last contracts of these players, for the most part they will not come cheap.  And thus is the reason why you cannot just go out and acquire players in FA to fill a team (unless you're the Yankees or Red Sox).  But if you have to go out in the market, perhaps the aforementioned players would be people to consider.  They're not sexy, but in the FA market you have to pay for sexy. (Boy that sounded wrong.)

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If we're making wish lists (which are not completely unrealistic), I want Big Papi to come to the Mariners.

He would “fill a gap”, namely the huge gap we’ve had in the middle of the line-up for the past four years.

Asides from this year, we’ve been wasting one of the best run scorers in the league (Ichiro).

Big Papi would be an anchor (in a good way!) in the middle of our line-up.
And I love his character (at least from what I can judge). I think he’d be a great big brother figure to the mass of young players we got and also would mesh well with Ichiro.

by daveinny on Oct 17, 2011 7:30 AM PDT reply actions  

OK, numbers:

David Ortiz

Career average
.283/.378/.544 OPS .922 OPS+ 136

2011
309/.398/.554 OPS .953 OPS+ 154

While he had a good year last year, in any case he would be a good bet to be the best hitter on the Mariners.
I haven’t seen those type of numbers in the middle of the lineup since Ibanez’s best years.

In terms of salary, there’s no worry he would be a Prince Fielder type deal of mega bucks over long years.

This year his salary was 12.5 million (or 13 million). In a month he’ll be 36. 3 years 30 million (or maybe even 2 years 20 million) doesn’t sound like it would be out of the question and he would cost less than what we paid for Figgins, for example.

Lefty power genuine MOTO bat with a good track record who’s total cost would maybe be only one fifth of what Prince Fielder would cost (of course he’s older).
And it’s not numbers, but as a bonus, a guy with a solid reputation and even a rep for being clutch, although that’s discounted here.

by daveinny on Oct 17, 2011 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Alternatively we stick with Mike Carp for free.

I’m very interested in seeing if his breakthrough is for real (it certainly seems like it is) and if we bring in Ortiz then we have to put Carp in left field, at the expense of the also interesting Casper Wells, or at first, and I’m certainly not ready to give up on Smoak yet.

by Eyeball Kid on Oct 17, 2011 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

"At the expense of the also interesting Casper Wells"

assumes that Franklin Gutierrez will be patrolling CF like he did in 2009, which would be great but no guarantee, wouldn’t you say?

by Two Rs and Two Ls on Oct 17, 2011 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

The biggest problem with a Big Papi is...

…the salary. If you compared him to all the players listed above, he has the most expensive expiring contract out there. At 36 though, he’s almost certain to get a 1-year deal, 2 tops.

The next problem is that he falls into the same category as Willingham. He’s in all likelihood a DH at this point, which would once again push Carp to LF, which to be honest is not desirable.

And remember, I’m looking at getting players who are hi-average, hi-OBP guys who are not necessarily HR hitters because at this point I’d rather not fight the HR-averse tendencies of our ballpark.

by KaminaAyato on Oct 17, 2011 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

Though I do understand...

…that he’s LH, so it would be a bit more favorable.

by KaminaAyato on Oct 17, 2011 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, I do agree that you made a list of good cost performance players.

However, Big Papi would not be a huge drain on the resources like Prince Fielder while bringing in a legitimate MOTO bat. Let’s say 2 years 24 million gets it done.

That’s not much for a team that shelled out 36 million dollars (with an option that gets it to 45 million dollars) for Chone Figgins or 10 million dollars for the services of 2 years of Jack Wilson.

by daveinny on Oct 17, 2011 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Bear in mind that Figgins and Wilson have value in the field too.

Ortiz does one thing and he probably won’t do it as well at Safeco as he did in Fenway.

by Eyeball Kid on Oct 17, 2011 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Roster spots and playing time have an opportunity cost associated with them

by bringing in a player like Ortiz, you are essentially shutting the door on one of the prospects without and perceivable long-term gain

by seattlebruin on Oct 17, 2011 8:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think Ortiz would even consider signing with Seattle.

Especially considering he showed he still has something left in the tank after a four win season last year after a couple down years before that.

by chezbergrur on Oct 17, 2011 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't want to sign an outfielder

 unless it’s a 4th OF type guy who can start in a pinch.

Between Carp, Wells, Gutierrez, Robinson, Saunders and Ichiro, we’re already too crowded in the OF, especially since 2012 is probably one year away from real contention. We need to see what we really have in the younger guys (especially Saunders and Wells), and run from there.

by seattlebruin on Oct 17, 2011 9:26 AM PDT reply actions  

Robinson was exciting for a hot minute

But wow, his arm sucks and even worse he takes terrible routes. They’re so bad it makes me wonder if he has any depth perception. He’s one of the fastest outfielders I’ve ever seen, but it doesn’t really make up the difference

by Kermit. on Oct 17, 2011 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

But even if you decide Robinson absolutely needs more time in AAA, you still have five guys for three spots plus a DH

I mean at this point, Saunders probably isn’t just going to magically start hitting ML pitching, but he’s a talented enough player that I’m OK with giving him one more chance to fail.

Carp and Wells look like they really should be part of the future

by seattlebruin on Oct 17, 2011 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

You think there's such a thing as an instinct for running a ball down like Gutierrez? As in a natural fielder?

I think there is but only because I was terrible at reading a ball off the bat in the outfield. I’ve never thought much about it beyond that

by Kermit. on Oct 17, 2011 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

I wonder if coaching and sheer number of reps can fix that, or improve it enough to make a difference.

Anyways, time to look at Wells and Robinsons batting lines, see how different they are at the plate

by Kermit. on Oct 17, 2011 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hmm, yes, I think there's a natural instinct for tracking fly balls

I think that it’s something that can be improved with reps, and make a discernable difference, but I also think that if you gave Robinson literally a million reps, he wouldn’t be as good as Gutierrez.

With Robinson though, he has so much natural athleticism that he doesn’t need to make enormous improvements to be at least average in the field, and if he can figure out a way to make a bit of contact, he’s a more than passable ML player with a bit of upside. Sure, he might need one more full season in AAA, but after that you can just toss him onto the pile we have in the outfield and figure out if he really is a long term contributor to the organization

by seattlebruin on Oct 17, 2011 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

General theory is:

Enough reps will cure anything that’s not a genetic defect. The difference once the “magic number” of reps has been reached is down to natural talent, but the gap wouldn’t be that big.

by Aussie Mariner on Oct 18, 2011 12:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

And that's why I'm looking at S/T contracts

Now while there is the argument of playing the players we have, which is different that possible FA targets, the fact we have many OF possibilities may mean that we don’t target an OF in the off-season. That’s why I said if you’re looking in FA you’re going to have to prioritize what positions you want to acquire.

So if an OF isn’t the top of the list, look elsewhere in 3B, C or SP.

by KaminaAyato on Oct 17, 2011 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed

I would think C would be the top priority, especially with Olivo doing his best Miguel Olivo impression at the plate. I’m not too worried about starting pitching or third, since I think at third we have a few decent options (Figgins dead cat bounce… ugh, see how Seager does in a full trial)

In terms of starters, yeah, I’d like to see one or two low cost high upside guys, but you would think that both Hultzen and Paxton have a chance to pitch in the majors towards the tail end of 2012, so you don’t want anyone blocking them unless they’re having a great season.

Let’s just boomerang sign Bedard and trade him again at the deadline for more top Dodgers prospects

by seattlebruin on Oct 17, 2011 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

Bedard may not be an option...

…after how he did going to Boston. Now, perhaps it’ll be discounted a bit considering the mess that was uncovered after their season ended unceremoniously, but even though we’ll get him cheap should we acquire him, I wonder what the haul will be for him the 2nd time around.

Which is why I looked at Edwin Jackson. He’s been flipped so many times for useful players I figure we might as well get in on the act – and he’s still relatively young!

by KaminaAyato on Oct 17, 2011 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

It seems like Jackson will cost actual money, though

he’s been both effective and durable for the last three-four seasons, plus he’s a starter, so he’d probably want a multi-year deal.

Even though a few year commitment to a decent pitcher isn’t the worst for the Mariners, starters aren’t a position I want to commit a lot of resources too at the moment.

by seattlebruin on Oct 17, 2011 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, exactly

Any durable, effective, (fairly) young starter on the open market is going to get a pretty good contract. He’ll expect a multi-year, fairly expensive contract, and he’ll almost certainly get it. There are always teams looking for pitching in the offseason that give out big contracts to guys like him.

While it would be nice to have Edwin Jackson in our rotation for a few years (you never know what might happen to our pitching prospects in the future), it might be a luxury the Mariners can’t afford. He would come with a hefty price tag, and long-term deals for pitchers aren’t always the best return on investment.

by nathaniel dawson on Oct 18, 2011 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's why I said we'd flip him...

…though in reality I mentioned him mostly in jest.

It was just that since he’d been involved in trades for the Tigers, D-Backs and Rays he appears to have above-average trade value.

by KaminaAyato on Oct 17, 2011 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

And Dodgers

but yeah, guys who are above average typically have above average trade value.

I just don’t think Jackson is a good target because of the years. I want short term guys with a bit of upside to bridge the gap to the three starters on their way, plus the triumphant return of Doug Fister

by seattlebruin on Oct 17, 2011 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

I only mention it because I have concerns with him already making $8.35M and appearing in the World Series this year.

I’m not sure what he’s going to command on the open market. I understand the whole “getting goodies back in trade” bit but I’m curious whether there remains any gold in that lucky pot.

by ThundaPC on Oct 17, 2011 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Who knows...

It’s another “kick the tires” idea. I’m sure there may be a push by the agents to give him more money now that he’s in the WS, but at the same time he didn’t set the world on fire this year – and that includes the playoffs.

But I guess that also means that perhaps the pot’s been run dry…

by KaminaAyato on Oct 18, 2011 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think we're good at 3B and OF

Between Seager/Liddi/Figgins and Wells/Robinson/Catricala/Chiang we have enough depth to find something that sticks and I don’t want to spend money on an average OF/3B to do old person average things.

C though – we need something here. Olivo sucks, as much as I love his pitch calling.

Big need is bullpen – we had the 2nd lowest bullpen K/9 last year. I realize everyone thinks it’s completely fungible and who cares but still.

by valencia on Oct 17, 2011 7:23 PM PDT reply actions  

But it is completely fungible - that's the point

we can build a bullpen from nothing. You usually don’t find quality starters in the trash pile

by seattlebruin on Oct 17, 2011 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

We kinda did build a bullpen from nothing last year

Results: 29th in K/9, 10th in BB/9, 22nd in xFIP, 18th in WAR

Granted we have Wilhelmsen, Ruffin, and Kelley now which should help.

Charlie Furbush is about as good as Jeff Francis anyway, so I think we have some talent in finding “quality” starters in the trash pile just fine. We really need a C though.

by valencia on Oct 17, 2011 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

22nd in xFIP isn't really "middle of the road"

but I see you’re point. spending money on a bullpen is a waste at this point, but 3B/LF aren’t big enough holes to spend money on…

so C/SP? Yu Darvish! Expensive though – might as well sign Prince. Or Edwin Jackson.

by valencia on Oct 17, 2011 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, with Darvish, the cost isn't really that much in terms salary budgets, as I think posting fees are from a different fund for the Mariners.

Although the posting fee might just be astronomical if any of the rumors from last year are even close to true, which would rule us out I’m guessing.

by Patrick Stites on Oct 17, 2011 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm a bigger Yu Darvish fan than Dustin Ackley fan, and I would be absolutely thrilled if we signed him.

That being said, I realize that signing him is likely spelling doom for any other off-season acquisitions and not that smart a move.

"Satisfaction is the enemy of success." SanFranPreps Twitter: @d_quazzo

by perfectstrat on Oct 18, 2011 12:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

that's the point though

the other potential off-season acquisitions aren’t great. might as well blow it all on a young pitcher that could replace Ichiro in the hearts of millions thousands

by valencia on Oct 18, 2011 12:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Likely not a smart move?

Well, pretty much every big FA signing has a higher chance of failure than success. I wager whatever team unloads their wallet on Darvish will be happier at the end of that deal than the one that goes for Fielder or some of the other big name FAs this offseason.

M's fan newly relocated to SF My homepage

by lailaihei on Oct 18, 2011 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think its a smart move given the opportunity cost.

Long-term, the pitching outlook is much better than the miserable position players we currently have. This is one of the first times we have money to spend in free agency. Over the last 3 years, the Mariners have accrued only 33 WAR at the plate — good for last in the majors. Long-term (and short-term) there are still serious questions about this teams ability to perform at the plate, and by replacing poorer performance the team will improve more. While I love Darvish as much as anybody, and signing him would be better than signing most other big-name FAs as he’s essentially the best pitching prospect in baseball, the Mariners signing him doesn’t make much sense other than appealing to the Japanese fan base, as its much more cost-effective to address position player problems.

"Satisfaction is the enemy of success." SanFranPreps Twitter: @d_quazzo

by perfectstrat on Oct 18, 2011 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think there's tons of room for upgrade in the rotation.

Behind Vargas, we have two spots that we can currently expect to get ~replacement level performance from.
And remember when it looked like the Orioles were going to have an amazing, young rotation between Matusz, Tillman, Arrieta, and Britton?
Here are their 2011 xFIPs:
5.22
4.83
4.52
4.12
League average FIP was 3.94

M's fan newly relocated to SF My homepage

by lailaihei on Oct 18, 2011 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I guess I didn't finish my thought there.

I don’t think we should avoid signing a guy who projects to be an ace because we have pitching in the pipeline, even if Walker and Paxton are great prospects, while we have 2 black holes in the rotation presently.

M's fan newly relocated to SF My homepage

by lailaihei on Oct 18, 2011 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

You are making a valid point. I swear if you rationalize signing Darvish any more I will do an internet squeal.

I still think our money is better spent on position players, but DARVISH FANBOY TAKING OVER.

"Satisfaction is the enemy of success." SanFranPreps Twitter: @d_quazzo

by perfectstrat on Oct 18, 2011 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think Yu Darvish projects to be an ace. I don't think anyone ever projects to be an ace.

Also, I think strat is soft of right. The budget to bid on players does, by all accounts, come from a budget that is separate from the budget we use on contracts, so it is conceivably possible to get Darvish without affecting next year’s contract budget, but at the same time money is still money, and if we want ownership to increase payroll so that we can finally have some offense on this team, having them spend millions and millions of dollars on a giant question mark is not an ideal use of resources. Darvish has to be treated like any other unknown in baseball, putting him on the level of Paxton. Some teams can afford to take that risk for the big payoff, but since the Mariners do have a glutton of potentially adequate pitchers and all of zero offense now or in the next few years, it wouldn’t be ideal to spend money that could go elsewhere on yet another pitching prospect.

Now, if the money wouldn’t ever go towards payroll, ever, and thus that same money would never bring in offense, then of course it would be a risk worth taking.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Oct 18, 2011 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

There isn't a marginal cost with upgrading the rotation until you run out of spots, though, so improvement of the rotation is improvement of the team

and you can’t assume that any of Paxton, Darvish or Hultzen will be elite level pitchers. Obviously, they all have good chances to become very good Major Leaguers, but for now, Darvish would likely be the safest bet to have a big impact in 2012.

Whether he would be worth what he would cost in terms of money is an entirely different story, of course

by seattlebruin on Oct 18, 2011 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

There is when you consider that Darvish is a prospect, not a known pitcher.

It would be akin to spending most of our budget on getting Paxton in the system. If Darvish was someone with established Major League success, then one could argue that the investment makes more sense, but like all players in another league/country, no one has any idea how Darvish will do, making him a prospect like any other prospect, and blowing that much money on a prospect when we also have several already is not a good idea.

If he was a position player, on the other hand, then it would be spending a great deal of money on a position player prospect, which I would argue this team could support because it doesn’t have that kind of near-ready upside in it’s system. As a pitcher, Darvish would be a significant investment on yet another pitching prospect, when there are better uses of resources for the team.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Oct 18, 2011 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

With every player there's some amount of unknown.

I don’t think throwing Darvish into the “prospect” bucket is fair.

Darvish is more of a known quantity than Paxton or Walker, but less than CJ Wilson.
Darvish is more of a known quantity than some MLB FAs, too. If you were to project FIP and give an expected “standard error” around that number, the error you give would probably be higher for Justin Duchscherer or Rich Harden than for Darvish.

M's fan newly relocated to SF My homepage

by lailaihei on Oct 18, 2011 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why do you think Darvish should be considered a prospect just as much as Walker or Paxton?

He has an electric fastball and one of the best breaking balls in the world. His “stuff” profile is Strasburg-lite, and his Japanese and WBC results confirm that.

The only thing he’s missing is “major league success”.

M's fan newly relocated to SF My homepage

by lailaihei on Oct 18, 2011 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

The answer lies between, as with most things.

Darvish is an incredible pitcher, and has proven that time and time again. He’s run a K/BB above 4 and has a career 1.81 ERA over 800 innings in a league that is the epitome of AAAA. He’s a prospect in the sense that he isn’t a known quantity at the MLB level, but how many players are, even if they are in the majors? Pineda/Ackley/Smoak are all in this sense “prospects” still, just like Darvish, and I don’t think its fair to throw Darvish in with MiLB players.

Darvish has never played in the majors, but he has about the highest floor I’ve seen from a pitching prospect ever. Take what Matt Moore did this year, and then have him repeat that success 3 times. CapSea is right in that Darvish isn’t a known quantity, but you can say that about most MLB players so I don’t think that’s a strong foundation for your argument. Additionally, why should prior MLB success matter in an investment if what you’re paying for is future success?

"Satisfaction is the enemy of success." SanFranPreps Twitter: @d_quazzo

by perfectstrat on Oct 18, 2011 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

In what world is Yu Darvish the same as Strasburg

and why should his results alone be indicative of his MLB success, when the league he played in was the equivalent of AAA? He might be a “better prospect then Paxton” but I think you’re seriously overestimating how much. He could do really well. He also easily may be just an adequate pitcher, or an above average pitcher. His results are not irrelevant, but they’re not indicative of his MLB success.

In addition, the amount of money it would cost the team would be similar to that of an expensive major league contract for a free agent. Once again, where the money coming from matters, and whether that money could be used in payroll also matters – if it’s either used or it’s not used, then by all means it should be used. But if it can be used in any other way for this team than I’d prefer it be invested in the things the team needs more of, rather than a risk from a player in a league that isn’t as difficult as the MLB.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Oct 18, 2011 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Strasburg wasn't MLB proven at San Diego State either

Darvish essentially has AAAA experience, and has dominated at that. I think there’s a serious case to be made that bringing in Darvish is a bringing in a highly polished yet somewhat unknown pitching prospect.

He’s certainly not Strasburg, but what about like a really expensive Michael Pineda comparison?

by seattlebruin on Oct 18, 2011 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Michael Pineda is still extremely "raw" in terms of pitching ability.

I don’t think that’s a fair comparison, though I get your point.

"Satisfaction is the enemy of success." SanFranPreps Twitter: @d_quazzo

by perfectstrat on Oct 18, 2011 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was speaking more to their pitching style, but also a bit to success.

Darvish is much more polished than Pineda, because Pineda only uses 2 pitches, and his success relies more on his natural ability to throw the ball as opposed to honed craft. Darvish meanwhile, throws a vast array of pitches with excellent command, leading to a more complete pitching product.

Darvish, even now, has had more successful seasons (though not the same success as Pineda — don’t get me wrong) and I think is less variable in projecting future performance. Meanwhile, Pineda has had two years where he’s vastly exceeded expectations. He was likely to have success, but he was just as likely to blow his arm out or struggle. In the future, while we can up the bar a bit, Pineda’s still much more variable in performance.

"Satisfaction is the enemy of success." SanFranPreps Twitter: @d_quazzo

by perfectstrat on Oct 18, 2011 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sure. I like that comparison.

And so I would once again argue that the team isn’t in a position to try to spend all of its money on another pitcher, because I think the idea that was floated around for years – including on this site – that a run saved is as good as a run earned doesn’t have as much merit if the offense doesn’t get any upgrade anymore.

As I said, if the money is “Goes to Yu Darvish or goes nowhere” then sure. But if there is any chance it’s “Goes to Yu Darvish or may go to the Payroll” then it’s not worth it for this team, the Seattle Mariners. It makes sense for a boatload of other teams though.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Oct 18, 2011 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Counterpoint:

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Oct 18, 2011 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

This one, in 2010.

Yu Darvish, Stephen Strasburg, and Aroldis Chapman

Obviously Strasburg has the highest ceiling and is most likely to have success when healthy at the MLB level.

"Satisfaction is the enemy of success." SanFranPreps Twitter: @d_quazzo

by perfectstrat on Oct 18, 2011 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't disagree, but the costs still matter.

Otherwise we’d be after Prince Fielder. He’s going to cost a lot, and that’s a lot invested in a product we don’t need as badly as another product, along with question marks about how his results will translate with the move.

Also, I’m still of the belief that there is a diminishing return on defense and hitting if you have no offense, so there’s that.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Oct 18, 2011 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh no, I totally agree that the cost is a huge, huge factor

but if cost were no object and the only consideration was playing time and diminishing returns, I would be just as happy adding Yu Darvish as say Brett Lawrie

by seattlebruin on Oct 18, 2011 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think we mostly all agree, except in regards to Darvish's expected performance.

Looking through his charts sure is fun, though, regardless of if you think he’s going to be an MLB ace or not.

Sits ~92-93 mph and throws a bunch of pitches, varying usage start-to-start.

M's fan newly relocated to SF My homepage

by lailaihei on Oct 18, 2011 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Even if costs matter

The argument is, “is there a better way to spend $16 million this year?” than going from Blake Beavan to Yu Darvish?

If we don’t have room in payroll for Fielder or Reyes, then it’s A-Ram, Cuddyer + Thome + Johnson, or Darvish. I think Darvish provides the biggest upgrade over alternate options.

The alternative alternative is to not spend money but who wants to do that…

by valencia on Oct 18, 2011 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh yeah, almost forgot.

What’s your paypal address?
email it to me eric[at]ericdykstra.me if you don’t want to share it publicly.

M's fan newly relocated to SF My homepage

by lailaihei on Oct 18, 2011 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Better idea

You can convert my $3.00 into pennies and give me your word that you will throw them one at a time at stray cats or old people. Then we will consider this matter resolved.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Oct 18, 2011 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

I totally disagree about "fine with 3B"

With that group, we’d be lucky to get 1 WAR out of the position next year.

M's fan newly relocated to SF My homepage

by lailaihei on Oct 17, 2011 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Even though Figgins will likely be gone come spring training and Seager/Liddi combined for .8 fWAR through a combined 68 games?

3B is one of our positions of need, but it’s definitely not the priority this offseason. C and SP should be our main targets.

by Cascadian Man on Oct 17, 2011 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Liddi is ~replacement level, maybe worse.

League-wide offense should have a bit of a rebound, and if that happens, Seager’s .306 wOBA won’t cut it at 3B. I mean, maybe you think his true talent is higher than that, but I’m not convinced. Right now I’d rather see him in AAA or on the bench as a utility guy.

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by lailaihei on Oct 18, 2011 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's more likely to be higher in 2012 than lower based on years previous to last year.

I see no reason why runs scored should continue to trend downward.

M's fan newly relocated to SF My homepage

by lailaihei on Oct 18, 2011 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

I tend to agree, but I also thought we'd be a lot further along after three years.

We’ve been stuck in a “WHY DOES THIS KEEP HAPPENING?!” in regards to the offense for awhile now.

follow @casetines

by Kenneth Arthur on Oct 18, 2011 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

While saying that it will trend downward is overly simplistic,

I don’t think that it’s assumed that offense will rise when it’s been going down the last two years.

by Mariner John on Oct 18, 2011 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why would it be?

What is changing in baseball that would lead anyone to believe that offense next year will be better than this year? If anything, teams are picking up on the value of defensive players and high strikeout, low walk pitchers regardless of BIP results, which would lead you to think that offense could very conceivably continue to go down.

by seattlebruin on Oct 18, 2011 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

With the greater point being that if Kyle Seager shows any gains going into his sophomore campaign

and posts something like a .315 wOBA with league average defense, I am 100% OK with that from third base

by seattlebruin on Oct 18, 2011 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

What sort of line do you see him putting up over 600 PAs?

A realistic optimistic scenario I can envision is something like a .260 average with 40-50 walks, 10 HRs on the high side, and topping out at 30 doubles+triples. That’s like a .310 wOBA player tops. If he plays league average defense, that’s an asset, but it’s still the kind of line better suited for a backup. I don’t like going into the season with Seager as our #1 guy at 3B, and just having Liddi there if he fails.

M's fan newly relocated to SF My homepage

by lailaihei on Oct 18, 2011 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

We do need a 3B

but other than A-Ram there’s nothing on the 3B FA market and he wants a contender. F-Mart might also start AAA next year so he’s a year away if you want to wait…

As for C…2013 has a lot of nice options. I think a one-year backup for Olivo for 2012 then go all out on a C for 2013’s FA class.

by valencia on Oct 17, 2011 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I like Sizemore.

Microfracture is hard to come back from, and like Beltran, it can take a year of getting your legs back so to speak. I think he’d be excellent if he would listen to reason and come home his adoring people. I also like one of the following: Bedard, Kuroda, Buehrle, or Darvish in order of affordability. I think that the high OBP/decent glove 3B options Scutaro/Punto/Carroll would also be a good way to replace Kennedy and split time with youth. Catcher is thin. I would ask about John Jaso from Tampa. He had a down year in 2011 and Tampa has other catching options. Jaso’s also left handed and one year removed from a 2.7WAR season over 109 games.

by goyo70 on Oct 18, 2011 5:13 AM PDT reply actions  

A few FAs I think might be undervalued this offseason.

Jim Thome – Can still hit, and was paid $3m last season and $1.6m the season before. Shouldn’t cost more than $4m and is probably worth more than that, especially on a team like the M’s where we can have a DH hole if we want one.
Jamey Carroll – Projects to be ~league average at 2B, 3B, or SS. Can’t imagine him being paid more than $5m on a one year deal. Nice stop-gap type of player that’s almost a sure upgrade over our current 3B situation.
Kelly Johnson – Should have a bit of a BABIP rebound, and good power from the left side. Give him a 3 year deal and I think he can be had at a discount.
Kenshin Kawakami - Went on the Braves’ shitlist and was forgotten about by baseball. Could be a good stopgap SP for the first half, then transitioned to the bullpen. Can’t imagine him costing a lot. Candidate to go back to Japan, though.
Javier Vazquez – Terrible first half depresses his 2011 numbers a lot, but he’d be a really solid addition to the rotation. Could be overpaid, but given his overall numbers last season I believe he’d come at a discount because of the risk he’s more like first-half 2011 than second-half.

M's fan newly relocated to SF My homepage

by lailaihei on Oct 18, 2011 12:49 PM PDT reply actions  

Hm...

I’d scratch Thome, because he’s only a DH at this point and I think that we need to see if Carp’s power is real… without having to give him a glove and send him to LF a la Ibanez.

I’m not particularly sold on Carroll at 3B, though for less money than Cuddyer you get less power, and about the same defense.

Kelly Johnson would have to be another convert to 3B (if that’s where you’re planning on putting him), plus I think he’ll be considered one of the top FAs at 2B so I don’t know if he can be had at a discount. And if he can, I’m not sure it’ll be for much of a discount.

I tried not to mention too many Japanese players because of personal bias, so I stayed away from mentioning Kawakami. The only thing that scares me about Japanese SP’s is that generally they’ve played since ES, thrown hundreds of thousands of pitches, and more than likely was part of Koshien throwing 130+ CG’s etc.

What I’m trying to say is that while their pitchers may be great, they are also given heavy workloads from an early age – which could lead to injuries and general burnout. One can argue that perhaps the best example of success is Kuroda who unlike all the other starters that came over was not a fireballer, but a control artist (as he had to be because Old Hiroshima Municipal was a bandbox).

Vazquez is a possibility for a pickup, but I’m not convinced he’ll come cheaply as you believe. He has had inconsistent seasons, but he’s still a good option nonetheless and may be bid up as teams who can’t afford the big boys clamor for the remainders.

by KaminaAyato on Oct 18, 2011 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not sold on Carp as an everyday DH. I'd rather see him at an offense/defense platoon in LF with Wells, and spend a little time at 1B and DH.

Thome isn’t an everyday player, even at DH. Carp would probably play 95% of games split something like 60% LF, 30% DH, 10% 1B.

I’m not sold on Carroll either, but I think he’s a clear upgrade over our current options and a good stop-gap for this year. Johnson is not a great 2B, and wouldn’t be a great 3B, but his bat profiles well at Safeco, and would give us another guy for the heart of the order. No rosterbating here, but Ackely, Smoak, Carp, Johnson 2-5 would be a decent threat to score against RHP.

I think Kawakami could come as cheap as a minor league contract, which would be an incredible no-risk, mid-reward play.

If we did sign Vazquez, I think it would definitely limit what else we do this offseason.

M's fan newly relocated to SF My homepage

by lailaihei on Oct 18, 2011 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not sold on Carp either but he should start DH

I think with the AL/NL adjustment, Safeco adjustment, and having to play 3B, Carroll wouldn’t profile much better than Seager.

Johnson would be better but you’d have to teach him 3B and there’s always the $$/years issue.

Thome would provide a nice upgrade but I rather keep DH open so we can try out more minor leaguers

by valencia on Oct 18, 2011 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

What about a trade for Brett Lawrie?

We got a lot of valuable parts we can afford to move…

by amac360 on Oct 18, 2011 2:08 PM PDT reply actions  

You know Lawrie's not available, but what about a trade for Travis Snider?

I think I’d trade Paxton for Snider today. Not saying the Jays would, but he’s young enough and talented enough to be a long term solution in LF.

by goyo70 on Oct 20, 2011 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

Just an FYI, this post was titled "Options for filling gaps via FA"

and presented a list of possible targets with their pros and cons from a sabermetric standpoint. This was not an invitation to prospect rosterbate

by seattlebruin on Oct 20, 2011 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions   4 recs

I would.

Brett Lawrie alone has so much more expected surplus value it’s ridic.
I’d hate/love it from a fan perspective, but as a GM it would be pretty hard to say no.

M's fan newly relocated to SF My homepage

by lailaihei on Oct 20, 2011 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

No.

"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff

by EequalsMc2 on Oct 22, 2011 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't really have anything to add, only a thought that I think is appropriately posted in this thread:

If the Mariners did sign Prince Fielder (and not for a “wow thats so reasonable!” deal) I couldn’t wait to come to LL and see what people had to say about it. And I mean after it really happened, and not in the hypothetical like it has been for so long.

follow @casetines

by Kenneth Arthur on Oct 18, 2011 4:40 PM PDT reply actions  

I wouldn't agree with your preference for the type of hitter that profiles best for Safeco Field.

“given the type of ballpark we have, etc. I’d like to build a team that is run-prevention oriented with good defense and an offense that can base-hit a team to death.

In general, Safeco Field seems to increase walks slightly, increase stikeouts significantly, reduce hits (batting average), increase home runs for left-handed hitters, decrease home runs for right-handed hitters. By extrapolation, about the only type of hitter that can expect a boost from Safeco are left-handed power hitters that don’t rely on getting a lot of base hits for their offensive value. Pretty much all other types of hitters suffer when hitting at Safeco. A base-hitting team that doesn’t have much left-handed power is going to suffer a reduced ability to get base hits, and isn’t taking advantage of the one thing Safeco Field seems to reward.

So for me, the question boils down to: can you get good left-handed power hitters in your lineup and still get players that are excellent defensive players? Ideally, you’d like to see both.

by nathaniel dawson on Oct 18, 2011 5:58 PM PDT reply actions  

I suppose if you want to go that route....

Very expensive, and can’t say as he gives us the defense you’d like to see, but as far as hitting goes, he’s the type that profiles best for our home field.

by nathaniel dawson on Oct 18, 2011 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd say that's a pretty good ballpark number.

8 years, I don’t know about, but maybe. He’s not going to get a contract like A-Rod, but he’s only 28, and has huge national market appeal. There are going to be enough teams that value what he offers to give him a huge contract like that. Witness what Ryan Howard (4 years older and basically the same player) got from the Phils.

by nathaniel dawson on Oct 18, 2011 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Witness how terrible the contract looked when it was signed and how much terrible it looks today.

Prince will get whatever he gets, but if anything I feel like Howard lowered the market on big first baseman. (Sure, Prince’s agent will disagree and use it as a starting point.)

follow @casetines

by Kenneth Arthur on Oct 18, 2011 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd bet on inflation and sign him to that in a heart beat

I have no idea if that’s smart or not, but $18 mil a year in 5 years? I’m wondering how far that’s going to go.

by Kermit. on Oct 18, 2011 7:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

I didn't realize a stadium could increase strikeouts significantly

I do agree we need power though. This is AL baseball – HR is king. Who wants to watch NL-style small ball? That crap doesn’t work if you wanna compete with the Rangers/Yankees/Red Sox/Tigers; you have to those delicious dingers.

And the easiest way to get power? Move in the LF wall. Ta-da: dingers.

by valencia on Oct 18, 2011 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

I sense that this was facetious

but I wanted them to move the fences in like ten feet in left the entire time Jose Lopez was on the team >:(

by seattlebruin on Oct 18, 2011 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

but seriously though

wouldn’t the positives outweigh the negatives? 4-5 RHBs (and some LHBs) will see more HRs, while our few flyball heavy pitchers might see a few extra leave the yard.

A-Rod, Beltre, and a bunch of great RHBs hated playing here. Moving in the fences would help attract better RHB talent, and make our offense less cringe worthy.

by valencia on Oct 18, 2011 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

*Raises hand*

Um, while I like HR’s I do like NL small ball. And IMO if that’s what I had thought the ballpark called for, I’d want it. HR’s are nice but to me too unpredictable to depend on as the primary form of offense.

Plus, power tends to be rather expensive. Much like the power on the grids nowadays or at the pump.

by KaminaAyato on Oct 18, 2011 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

I also like Japanese baseball...

and specifically HS baseball which has some power, but is dependent on small ball a lot (to a fault I admit). So I tend to be more of that mindset than HRs.

by KaminaAyato on Oct 18, 2011 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Perhaps that's just the team I was ideally looking for.

I figured with the expansive outfield that despite the demand now for good fielders, having a team that could ping a pitcher to death would be desirable. To that extent I’d like a lot of hitters who could spray the ball all over the place but specifically have line-drive power. Crap, is there a link to that analysis?

by KaminaAyato on Oct 18, 2011 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

You know, thinking about what hitters profile best for Safeco....

Maybe you would want your right-handed hitters to be the ones to ping a pitcher to death, and your lefties to be the big boppers. You gotta have both righties and lefties in your lineup (that’s what they say), so go with what the park gives you. Righties that rely on getting singles and walks aren’t going to be hurt as much as righties that rely on power, and if your lefties are good power hitters, they can take advantage of the home run boost that Safeco gives them. So build your lineup with a bunch of Jamal Strongs and Russell Branyans.

by nathaniel dawson on Oct 19, 2011 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just thought of a reason why we should go after relievers

To trade them at the deadline!

Rangers/Cards are showing why relievers matter in the playoffs, and contenders will pay top prospects for quality relievers (Colby Rasmus lol). Are there any high-reward, medium-risk types who would sign for a year or two to re-establish value here or something? That could be something we tap into.

by valencia on Oct 18, 2011 11:39 PM PDT reply actions  

Would you consider moving Ryan to third base and opening up shortstop?

It seems there is a better market for shortstop than third baseman, plus Ryan has played there before.

"You are the molders of their dreams." - Clark Mollenhoff

by EequalsMc2 on Oct 19, 2011 10:12 PM PDT reply actions  

Even if we did somehow pick up a shortstop that hits better than Ryan...

There is no way he’s have a better glove.
Plus, I can’t imagine us looking for a shortstop, instead of a 3B/LF.

by Aussie Mariner on Oct 20, 2011 3:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well I mean I think the idea is that SS would be easier to fill via FA than 3B

but still, why would we move our best player to a worse position for him to make room for an unknown?

by seattlebruin on Oct 20, 2011 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

What I meant (and didn't explain very well - or at all really)

Was if we got another SS in we’d probably be better off having them learn third instead.
Especially since you’d hope they’d have a better bat, and generally speaking the SS’s with better bats have lousier gloves, etc.

by Aussie Mariner on Oct 20, 2011 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Furcal is a below-average defensive SS with a good arm.

Could make an above-average 3B and be a good stop-gap 3B that could be had without blowing all our FA money this offseason.

M's fan newly relocated to SF My homepage

by lailaihei on Oct 20, 2011 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks.

This is pretty much what I meant.

by Aussie Mariner on Oct 20, 2011 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

I can't tell whether Furcal is good

or whether Ryan Theriot was so bad he makes Furcal look amazing

by Poochie on Oct 23, 2011 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

Why would we move our best defensive player to a position that would just murder his value?

wouldn’t this be the classic “cut off your nose to spite your face” move?

by seattlebruin on Oct 20, 2011 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

Matt Murton

Is a free agent now, and still humming from his decimation of Ichiro’s all time NPB hit record. Murton was a player we probably should have signed before he ever left for Japan- now we can throw him a little party to come play some LF in Seattle. Free Nintendo. He hit .294/.362/.448 while with the Cubs, and his star has not dimmed in his time across the sleepy Pacific.

by goyo70 on Oct 25, 2011 7:12 PM PDT reply actions  

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