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The two Cliff Lee trades, other trades, managing a bidding war and evaluating a general manager

 

                Amidst the general decline in opinion of the Mariners front office (although it is still justifiably quite high at least in the blogosphere) I sought to justify my original and continued optimism that their decisions represent a sound decision making process and skill at evaluating the market.  The easy solution is to be content that the decisions were for the most part sound and many things went horribly wrong in the luck distribution.  The argument could end here, but one feels uneasy after a season like this, and is tempted to analyze decisions on results as well as process.  I immediately sought comfort in both Cliff Lee trades as evidence of deal-making prowess.  I’m willing to believe that the first trade didn’t just fall into Jack Zduriencik’s lap and that it had just as much to do with awareness of what other teams were trying to do, skill in communicating the right information about what Mariners were after, and most importantly skill in evaluating an opposing GM (the limits of their idiocy) in order to sufficiently low-ball them without causing the discussion to collapse.  It seems like an easy call that the first Lee trade wasn’t completely luck and most likely demonstrates ability that fans should be enthusiastic about. 

               The second Lee trade is trickier because it seems like a much different scenario.  For one, dealing powerful position of having highly sought after talent that could still provide some value if not traded gave the Mariners tremendous leverage.  There was also a bidding war.  The first Lee trade could not have contained any kind of bidding war or else Amaro Jr.’s evaluation of talent is worse than we all thought.  Midseason 2010 however it was clear that Lee was available and multiple teams wanted him.  The existence of two known offers from smart teams seems like evidence of determined value rather than one team plundering another team who is desperate to distance their offer from others.  I guess my question is whether we can have enough information to assign skill to a trade where all the heavy lifting in negotiating a valuable return is essentially done by their negotiating position and the market.  One could argue it took skill to know when Lee’s value would be the highest, whether or not waiting could generate a higher offer, and whether this waiting is worth the injury risk.  It is also important to be able to judge whether another team’s “final offer” is really final.  One also must be aware of the possibility that an offer that is on the table will not last, because the offering team will realize that it is too high.  Bidding wars create a time sensitive scenario where an offer might be made before the offering team thought through and weighed every possible outcome.  The process is so complex, with so many changing scenarios and moving parts, that being able to choose the best offer cannot be as easy as simply waiting for an offer they like and taking it. 

In negotiating, both teams are essentially playing chicken and trying to figure out what the other’s true final offer will be.  Sure, Zduriencik could have simply waited until midnight on the trade deadline and took the highest offer, but I’m sure there were teams that said at various points that their offers were final.  I can see teams actually harming themselves in a short term trade outcome in order to establish credibility that they mean it when they declare an offer “final.”  There have probably been situations in the past where players that by all rights should’ve been traded aren’t because a team feels they have to uphold this credibility.  A trade for a gigantic haul vs. meager one could be the outcome of one team’s guess of another team’s limits or posturing.  It probably took skill to correctly value the potential for different teams to offer better and the risk in not accepting their offers.  Texas had the most to gain from trading for Lee, so they were the most desperate.  Waiting to see whether they would break and make the offer they did was a calculated gamble.  The Yankees and Twins both have a good shot at winning the World Series this year while keeping the talented players they offered/considered offering.  The Mariners waiting and saying no to them was obviously a risk. 

I guess the point of all this is to reject the notion that some of Zduriencik’s successes could be attributed to luck in a way that, in the wake of this disastrous season , could shine a new and distressing light on the deals that were failures as evidence of deeper flaws being unmasked.  The job of running a baseball team requires limitless time and effort and trades and free agent signings are time sensitive with  changing windows of opportunity.  The amount of time and effort put into deals that never happen, that we never know about, further drains the finite resources a front office can devote to its functioning.  A bad trade could be evidence of bad evaluating skills or lack of discipline, a bad process or simply not enough time spent contemplating and weighing the likelihood of possible outcomes.  Perhaps if Zduriencik had weeks to lock himself in his office and think of nothing other than the likelihood of Morrow reaching his potential or Jack Wilson turning to dust, those trades might have been different. The second Cliff Lee trade obviously took massive amounts of time and focus.  The variables are such that good and bad outcomes could be evident of the same level of skill and quality of process subjected to differing levels of time and focus.  Looking at process is valuable but needs to be weighted according to the importance of the trade. Because differing amounts of luck or skill can be assigned to any one deal, we need to look at all of Zduriencik’s deals as a whole before we can begin to put any kind of predictive value on them.  Zduriencik isn’t the GM that made the Cliff Lee deals, and he isn’t the GM that made the Jack Wilson and Brandon League deals.  He’s somewhere in between, a mixture of both, and that is a GM I’m comfortable with running my favorite team.




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If luck has anything to do with it, I'm sure Jack would agree that any deal that goes well for you involved some good luck and any deal that went bad for you involved some bad luck.

The trade with the Pirates was a loss and certainly from the onset Jack had to know he was taking a calculated risk. A risk that Snell would be a major league pitcher and that Jack Wilson would stay healthy. Neither of those things happened. In the meantime, that calculated risk didn’t give up a whole ton in return. We don’t know what will become of the 4 minor leaguers and even though Cedeno has been much better than Wilson, what would Ronny Cedeno have done for us this year? Certainly, we might be better off without Wilson and his 2011 contract – but that’s why its a risk.

The Morrow trade is still up in the air for me and probably always will be. Morrow is a different pitcher and is far from a “workhorse” starting pitcher, I think its reasonably questionable if he’ll ever reach 200 innings in a season. And while there are still doubts about Johermyn Chavez, he could still prove to be a major league player with some power. League could also help ease the burden of trading Aardsma in the offseason. Or could be trade bait himself. Certainly, the trade looked bad from the start and didn’t get better this year.

Most everything else that Jack has done has proven that he is better than just good luck but is also far from perfect. He’s proven to me that he’s one of the better GM’s in the league right now.

by Kenneth Arthur on Sep 28, 2010 5:01 PM PDT reply actions  

Prospect Insider has a good take on Jack Zduriencik's performance to date.

Grading Jack Zduriencik (Part 1)
Grading Jack Zduriencik (Part 2)
(Article by Adam Boyd)

This sort of reflects how I feel about the Zduriencik at this point in time. No question there have been issues with how some things have been handled but I’m very satisfied with the overall body of work so far.

With the way this season has played out it’s easy to forget just what kind of situation Zduriencik was walking into and how much work he’s done to clean it up. He would’ve been some kind of legend if he got this team back into contending full-time in just 2 years. Instead, the high-risk team that was the 2010 Mariners saw none of the reward and all of the risk play out. But even still, the farm system continues to improve.

I’m pretty excited for next season, honestly. Zduriencik no longer has to compensate for clubhouse chemistry (Mike Sweeney) or the nostalgia victory tour (Ken Griffey Jr.) when constructing the roster. The entire team can now be build with talent first in mind.

by ThundaPC on Sep 28, 2010 5:38 PM PDT reply actions  

I'm still perfectly comfortable with all of the trades that Z has made for this team.

I mean, some of them didn’t work out, but you always run that risk. They seemed like good trades at the time they were made. There was no way to know that Morrow would blossom this much or that League would falter like he did. Trading Ronny Cedeno and Jeff Clement for Jack Wilson and Ian Snell? That seems like a bit of a rip-off, in our favor, had they performed at expected levels. Besides, Clement lost his MLB job too, and Cedeno is only hanging on for lack of shortstops.

So while some of the trades ended up being disappointing, I’m not disappointed with the decision to make them.

As for the second Lee deal, I was a little disappointed because I was really hoping we would get a deal centered around Ramos. If I remember correctly, the Twins weren’t really willing to go for that though. I’m happier with Smoak than I would be with Montero, though. I really hope the media can get over Lueke’s past, because I think he can contribute to this club in the next year or so.

by nemo1 on Sep 28, 2010 6:18 PM PDT reply actions  

To be fair, the deal w/Pittsburgh included a few minor league pitching prospects

and then there was the issue of salary. I think people are justified if they want to say that they traded a whole lot of nothing for a few older, more expensive nothings and that you can’t really hold it against Seattle (or Pittsburgh) that they made the deal. But the fact that Clement’s struggling doesn’t get Z a complete pass on that deal, at least in my opinion.

by marc w on Sep 28, 2010 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

I guess the minor league pitching does even it out a bt.

But I still think it was a good deal at the time, not regarding salary. Jack Wilson posted 2 WAR in 2009, Snell was around 1 with the potential to be around 2 or 3.
Cedeno posted -0.4 WAR in 2009, and the highest he ever posted before that was 0.4. (incidentally, this year he has posted a 1.1 WAR) The highest WAR Clement ever posted was 0.3, in 2007.
None of the four really showed much room for improvement.
Not a great deal, but still a good one. I was happy when this trade was made.

The point on salary does make sense. Wilson’s contract is definitely a burden. I’m not really expecting the Mariners to spend much this offseason, though. It shouldn’t hurt the team too bad in the long run, right?

by nemo1 on Sep 29, 2010 12:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

Oh sure, if you ignore salary it looks a lot better.

Just not sure that it’s worthwhile to do that.

I think it’s clear though that even with Wilson’s contract, it wasn’t any kind of horrific blunder. We had no use for Clement and Wilson sure as hell seemed like a major upgrade at the time.

by marc w on Sep 29, 2010 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well, yes.

Assuming that the other players in the package made up the difference. There was talk of a deal for Blackburn, Slowey, or Duensing along with Ramos and Aaron Hicks, and one other guy, I think… I’m a little fuzzy on the details at this point.
I just think that Ramos is a good fit for this team… we need a catcher who can hit. Montero isn’t good enough to stick at catcher, more likely ending up as a 1B/DH type guy. I’m happy with Smoak at 1B though, as he is likely to be a much better hitter than Ramos and is pretty good defensively, and Lueke is eventually probably going to be at least as good as any of the pitchers offered by the Twins, if he ever gets playing time in Seattle.

I’m not saying that a Ramos package actually would have been the better deal of the three, just that I was really excited for it and was a little disappointed that we didn’t get it. Don’t get me wrong, Smoak has definitely piqued my interest and I am very excited for his future now.

by nemo1 on Sep 29, 2010 8:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

I remember reading a bunch of Adam Moore comps for Ramos.

In which case, eh. I’d much rather have Smoak or Montero.

by BrianL on Sep 29, 2010 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hm.

I was always under the impression that Ramos was much better than Moore. I may be wrong, I don’t follow minor league baseball too much, but I was pretty sure Ramos was better than that. I seem to remember him being much higher than Moore in prospect rankings, with a higher ceiling.

Whatever. The point is moot now, and I am quite happy with the haul we ended up with for Lee.

by nemo1 on Sep 29, 2010 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

But I'm talking about the whole package.

Of course if it was just one of those three players for Lee, and no one else involved with the deal, Ramos is definitely the bottom of the pile. But when you factor in the three or four other guys associated with each trade, they even out a bit.

And I’m not saying that the Ramos package was the best one… I was just excited about it and it didn’t happen.

by nemo1 on Sep 29, 2010 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ramos had fallen off considerably by the time Lee was traded.

Probably a better prospect than Moore, but not a whole lot better. As seen when he was traded for Matt Capps.

by Kenneth Arthur on Sep 29, 2010 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Like I said, I don't pay too close of attention to minor league ball.

I’m not trying to be an authority on it or even pretend I know what I’m talking about, but when the rumors of a Ramos trade happened, I was pretty excited. I didn’t know he had fallen off that much, but I knew that he had been a really good catching prospect.

I was a little disappointed at the time because Ramos and Aaron Hicks coupled with Duensing or Slowey seemed like such a great deal. I didn’t know as much about Lueke, Beavan, or really even Smoak. I think that we got a good package, though, now that I know more about the players involved. (That is, if Lueke is given a chance.) I’m not trying to argue which package was better, I just remarked that I was a little let down at the time of the deal, with what small amount of knowledge I had. I am fully behind the Smoak trade now, and I think it was a smart trade by Z.

by nemo1 on Sep 29, 2010 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

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