Acknowledging The Josh Lueke Story
This is a big enough issue that I feel almost obligated to weigh in. I don't really want to talk about it. I don't think anyone *wants* to talk about it. But then, nobody really wants to talk about the 2010 Mariners, either, and we still do every day. Life is all about doing enough shit you don't want to so you can afford to do the other shit you do.
First of all: in case you missed it somehow, here is Geoff Baker's article from this morning. In it, Rick Adair alleges that the Mariners knew about Josh Lueke's situation before the trade, and Rangers GM Jon Daniels refutes the notion that he wouldn't take Lueke back once the trade was completed. Please spare me your opinions of Geoff Baker. I know a lot of people don't like him, and believe he has a tendency to sensationalize. That doesn't matter. This is very clearly a story worth investigating, and Geoff did a decent job.
Second of all: this is not a post about Josh Lueke. This is not a post about rape, or sodomy, or alcohol, or the courts, and I'm not interested in talking about any of those things. We're not going to have another one of those comment threads.
Third of all: the fact that it's pronounced "Loo-kee" instead of "Luke" drives me insane. It must also drive his teammates insane, as they struggle to come up with a nickname.
Now then. For the sake of coherence and simplicity, I think it's worth untangling everyone's individual story, here. As best as I can tell, this is what Rick Adair, Chuck Armstrong, Jack Zduriencik, and Jon Daniels have to say on the matter:
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Adair: Ten days before the trade, he talked to Zduriencik about a number of Rangers prospects, including Lueke, and mentioned his court appearance.
Armstrong: A few hours before the trade, he noticed that Lueke had been suspended in 2009, and asked Zduriencik about it. Z told him that he'd checked it out with Daniels, and that it was no big deal. Armstrong then found out some of the details after the trade, at which point he asked Z to trade Lueke back, but Z told him the Rangers said no.
Zduriencik: He talked with Adair prior to the trade about a number of Rangers prospects, including Lueke, but discussed only their on-field abilities as players. Before the trade was made, he asked Daniels about Lueke's suspension, and was told there was an incident at a bar and that Lueke had been "acquitted". After the trade was made, and Armstrong demanded that Lueke be sent back to Texas, Z said the Rangers apologized, but also told him the deal was already done.
Daniels: At the time of the trade, he believed the Mariners already knew about Lueke's past, so he didn't bring it up. After the trade, the Mariners asked him about it, so he explained the story and mistakenly said Lueke had been "acquitted". Daniels says he offered the Mariners several chances to trade Lueke back.
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Whose words do we consider most truthful? I think it's important to note that Jon Daniels has no reason to lie or mislead. Rick Adair just got fired a few weeks ago. He may harbor some ill will, and may hold a bit of a grudge. The Mariners have the whole Refuse to Abuse campaign and, as Baker says, "have long supported groups opposing violence toward women." So the Mariners clearly had a reason to smooth things over as much as they could. What would be Daniels' angle? Daniels would have nothing to gain by not telling the truth.
These are the two big questions:
Did the Mariners know about the Josh Lueke situation prior to the trade?
According to Adair, he at least told the front office that Lueke had run into some trouble. According to Zduriencik, the severity of the situation had not properly been conveyed. At best - at absolute best - the Mariners didn't know, and come away looking ill-prepared and irresponsible. Adair says Lueke's history was "common knowledge," and there's no excuse for the Mariners not picking up on something every fan had found out in five minutes.
At worst, either the Mariners knew and chose to mislead, or Zduriencik knew, and didn't tell his boss, and chose to mislead. Given the organization's history, I believe Armstrong when he says he demanded that Lueke be sent back when he found out what happened.
Could the Mariners have sent Lueke back to Texas?
Jon Daniels says he offered to take Lueke back in a separate move the same night the Cliff Lee trade went down. Daniels goes so far as to say the offer is still on the table. Zduriencik, meanwhile, says Daniels was all negative on the take-backsies, and that, according to Texas, everything was already done. Daniels, again, has no good reason to lie. So why would Zduriencik say what he did? The best explanation I can come up with is that he really wanted Lueke in the organization, but didn't feel that was good enough for upper management. But that's speculation on my part.
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What now? I'd be lying if I said I weren't writing this with squinty eyes and clenched teeth, since all the different angles have confused the crap out of me. I've been thinking about this and re-reading the source article for hours, now, and I'm still not sure what I've even written down. But in the end - or at least as of now - I'm left with three concerns:
(1) Is there a disconnect between the front office and the people above it? What this seems like - seems like - is a case where Zduriencik wasn't entirely truthful to Armstrong, which is never a good business move. If they have differing philosophies on roster management and personality type, then that needs to be discussed before we end up with stuff like this.
(2) What does this do to the relationship between the Mariners and the Rangers? Zduriencik said something about the Rangers that Jon Daniels says isn't true. At best, that's awkward, and at worst, that begets a conflict. Will future discussions between Texas and Seattle be as amicable as they presumably have been in the past?
(3) What can we say about how well Jack Zduriencik works as a GM? Roster management is only one part of the job. The difference between being an assistant and being the head honcho is that the head honcho has to worry about other things, like PR and interpersonal relationships around the league. Zduriencik has obviously gotten the organization some negative attention with this whole thing. He also might've annoyed the Rangers' front office, just a little while after angering the Yankees' front office by backing out of a Lee deal at the last second. There've also been all those rumors about how Zduriencik goes around with unreasonable asking prices in trades. How firm is Jack's grasp, really, on his job? How well does he meet all of the qualifications?
Ultimately, I don't know very much. I don't know how this whole thing really happened, and more importantly, I don't know how much it really matters. I don't know how important it is for a GM and team executive to be on the same page. I don't know how much the Rangers care about what Zduriencik said, and I don't know how much of a difference that sort of thing makes when it comes to future talks, since you'd think teams would be able to look past prior conflicts when they want to make a move. While this is a story, I don't know how important of a story this is.
What I know is that it isn't good. At no point in my countless re-readings did I come away thinking "well the Mariners look better." Everything about this is uncomfortable and disconcerting.
Saturday's Safeco event should be fun.
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Hate to be Debbie Downer here, but this organization appears to be in fucking shambles.
Add everything together (the losing, the dugout brawl, the people who run the organization possibly not on the same page) and it looks pretty bad. Can it get any worse?
Because we’re rebels. Accurate, intelligent, introspective rebels. And damn proud of it my friend. - CapSea
Well, we could be owned by Drayton McLane
…they should send down Huntington & Nutting, because they aren’t ready, either. - royshowell
by Marinerfanjake on Sep 2, 2010 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Probably, but it's hard not to group all the bad together and be a little depressed about it all.
Because we’re rebels. Accurate, intelligent, introspective rebels. And damn proud of it my friend. - CapSea
Just like it wasn't hard to group all the good together before the season and be fucking ecstatic about it?
by Fuckmikereilly on Sep 2, 2010 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I was as excited as the next person before the season started.
And this team still has a lot of positive things to look forward to. All I’m saying is a lot of bad shit has happened in one season, and it’s hard not to group it all together and be brought down a bit.
Because we’re rebels. Accurate, intelligent, introspective rebels. And damn proud of it my friend. - CapSea
Not that anyone has a sixth sense about these things, but it doesn't really *feel* like Z is about to be fired.
You know that sense you get at your company when you can just tell people are about to be let off? I’m not getting that from the Mariners. Not that dowsing the collective subconscious of the Mariners world is of any validity whatsoever.
Why did I write this?
Personally, I would love for the story to just go away
and for people ill-equipped to comment on it to stop commenting on it.
by Matthew on Sep 2, 2010 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Holy shit, yes. Thank you.
I thought I was the only one.
One other possible wrinkle
JD might have been willing to take Lueke back but his counter offer might have been worse in Z’s mind such that he considered it a “no take backs” answer and JD considered it (and still considers it) a chance for the M’s to renege.
A couple of notes
- And just added depth, JD said he thought Lueke was a very underrated loss in the Cliff Lee trade the day after it happened and thought that Lueke would be on the major league roster by now. But JD also really wanted Lee so he was willing to give up a piece like that. I think this adds credibility to the story that there is a standing offer to take Lueke back but also credibility to JD somewhat downplaying what happened since the Rangers might not think it was a big deal.
-We all knew about the Lueke story at LSB. It was covered pretty well in the Bakersfield papers with all of the sordid details. Whenever anybody commented on Lueke’s tear, someone would invariably bring it up. Suffice to say, everybody on the Mariners should have been aware that something really awful happened that night.
Which is why I think that most people in the Mariners org. had to have known exactly what happened with Lueke.
It’s too hard not to have known. I just don’t think Armstrong knew and I don’t think the baseball people realized that Armstrong would react so strongly.
Yeah I don't buy that no one did a google search.
Winter Meetings

Draft Day

I think Z just really wanted a very good player and he got him
He figured he would deal with the situation if it ever came out.
"The 2010 Rangers...winning despite Ron Washington"
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
In his defense, you are a retarded cuntbag by LiamP on Mar 4, 2010
I would try to shift the blame to the IT department for having Yahoo as the default search engine.
by Janic on Sep 2, 2010 6:08 PM PDT reply actions 4 recs
I have Yahoo as a default search engine
and i love every bit of it.
…they should send down Huntington & Nutting, because they aren’t ready, either. - royshowell
by Marinerfanjake on Sep 2, 2010 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Yahoo! uses Bing.
Bing is amazing.
I don't really know what else to make of the situation
Other than Jack Zduriencik valuing talent above all other things and Chuck Armstrong valuing wholesome personalities.
I also think the stories that are happening in a bad season are magnifying things to a larger degree than they actually are, especially since this was to be a contending team.
I’m also surprised at the organization’s openness of this situation, right down to the lack of “google searching.” This organization has shown to be meticulous about what they say and what they don’t say.
by ThundaPC on Sep 2, 2010 6:19 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
"Jon Daniels says he offered to take Lueke back in a separate move the same night the Cliff Lee trade went down."
Sure, we’ll take Lueke back. Here, you can have 38 year old AA shortstop Crappy McTerrible in exchange!
Morgan Ensberg for Manager 2011!
AL Scout on Rendon: "I would peg him as a poor man's Jose Lopez."
Yeah - I think that's an unexpressed subtext here.
Daniels says he’s willing to take him back. In a separate deal. What’s not said is what Daniels is willing to offer in the “take back”.
"Most all good Americans hate the Yankees. It is a value we cherish and pass on to our children like decency and democracy and the importance of a good breakfast." - William B. Mead
I'm sure Daniels would exchange a piece of lower value
I’m sure Armstrong wouldn’t care. The Mariners would end up with some other reliever, or fringe starter, or toolsy kid in A-ball.
by Jeff Sullivan on Sep 2, 2010 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, we have him now. Let's make the best of it and move on .
What else can we do? Are the Ms supposed to put out an apologetic PSA now? Shit happens. Someone either didn’t do the homework, or REALLY wanted this guy. Either way, you move on. Michael Vick isn’t getting shit thrown at him anymore. Fans have short memories, no matter the severity of the transgression. Just wait until “Big Ben” takes the Steelers to the playoffs again this season. Everyone will talk about how miraculous it is that he did it after missing a handful of games.
I sometimes find myself engaged in combat with hobos.
Agree with this ...
… and this can actually work out as a situation in which the Mariners are able to actually accomplish more for the cause.
"Most all good Americans hate the Yankees. It is a value we cherish and pass on to our children like decency and democracy and the importance of a good breakfast." - William B. Mead
The donut place?
Milton Bradley apologist
by sanford_and_son on Sep 5, 2010 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think this is the important part of the story anymore
The question is: Is Jack Zduriencik full of shit? And if so, to what extent?
by lemonverbena on Sep 2, 2010 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions
i love Z.
but i think he sort of “screwd up” right here. I understand he wanted Lueke in the organization. But something smells…
by Greeff on Sep 2, 2010 7:02 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I honestly don't care. No tolerance policies are dumb shit, and don't take into account personal growth.
We got a hell of a baseball player that might be a little more humbled and willing to work for an organization that would give him a shot, but instead we get a bunch of bullshit and he said she said, and basically saying he’s irredeemable.
Much like in most other situations, if people involved would just shut the fuck up publicly and work things out in private, no one would care for more than a few days.
If he can stay out of trouble until he hits the majors, and we bring him up and he can throw a few shutout innings to start his career, only the PI commenters of the world would care.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
by Faux on Sep 2, 2010 7:52 PM PDT reply actions 8 recs
I'd bet money...
Leuke never sees the field in Seattle.
This type of thing wouldn’t be forgotten in many parts of the country. Not in Seattle. And we know how PR conscious the M’s are.
And that is why...
the Mariners will continue to be garbage.
This org puts more value is giving people hugs and bobbleheads instead of putting a winning product on the field.
This is professional sports, most normal work rules don’t apply here. He pleaded “No Contest”, which with punishment will effectively close the legal book on this one.
That’s all we should care about.
Now if he gets in trouble again? Then I think the Mariners know what they have to do.
I am willing to bet 100% that Jack knew what he was doing, wanted the player and got him. It isn’t his fault he is trying to do his job of building a winner and HowChuck is worried about how they can’t use him in one of those Mariners commercials filmed during spring training that everyone gushes over.
Sidebar – I am tired of those commercials.
by uwbradley on Sep 3, 2010 7:06 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm inclined to agree.
It’s not like he’s under indictment or awaiting trail or something.
He was charged. He plead no contest. He was sentenced. Now he’s on probation. And by the time he’s not on probation, he’ll be older and wiser.
I don’t really see why this is a problem at all. Yes, he did something bad. But he’s paid for it. The case no longer has any moral relevance.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
I know this is a common complaint that everyone's big on currently
that the Mariners are MORE concerned with their marketing as an “entertainment product” than actually winning baseball games, but I don’t think that makes much sense, insofar as the two don’t necessarily have any sort of causal relationship and the team has spent money in the past.
Also, at the risk of skirting the edge of a conversation disallowed in this thread, I would say that there is a big difference between wanting a “squeaky clean” guy vs having a policy against certain types of criminal behavior, accused or otherwise.
OMG I'm totally with you on this one
Third of all: the fact that it’s pronounced “Loo-kee” instead of “Luke” drives me insane
If Lueke was a politician I could understand why people would give a shit about his history.
But he’s not, he’s a goddamn baseball player. As long as he’s producing on the field and has paid his debt to society, the fans, Chuck Armstrong, and Howard Lincoln should not give a shit.
The bottom line should be that the Mariners are a baseball team. Baseball teams are supposed to win games.
Anyways, it’s not like its that big of a deal anyways.
Every professional athlete in the world has fucked something they shouldn’t have while they were fucked up.
"Fucked something"?
That something was a passed-out girl on a bathroom floor. That’s a person, not a thing.
by lemonverbena on Sep 3, 2010 6:20 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Regardless of what happened, it is a big deal to the victim
I agree with your overall point about baseball and not requiring athletes to be role models.
But that last bit is too much. Show some empathy.
by Astrobiology on Sep 4, 2010 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Thanks for the nice, lucid recap of the situation
I didn’t read Baker’s article because I really couldn’t give two shits about the whole thing, but you’ve laid everything out nice and clear here. And I still couldn’t give two shits, but at least I’m more informed now.
Mariners/D Broncos/BSU Broncos fan in Seattle
The first rule of Lookout Landing is...
Baker's story was, I thought very well researched and very sensationally reported
The story is really this disconnect between what everyone is saying to everyone else in the two organizations, and where the truth actually lies, but Baker adds plenty of police report details to make the story seem bigger than it actually is, in my opinion.
So, reading Jeff’s recap on it’s own is probably the best way to play.
Man, reading the comment thread on the baker piece was a shitstorm.
Indicator of political intrigue
This isn’t about some rapist pitcher, it’s about the obvious cold war between Armstrong and Z, which in my estimation is about to turn hot. Z wants Armstrong out, as he knows he can never succeed with Armstrong in place, but the politics of getting him to retire or get ousted are very complex. I think if you look at the way Z used his Selig connections and some pretty good self promotion to gun his way from scout to GM indicates that when it’s time to be a weasel, he can weasel with the best. I am not saying this is bad, as sometimes you need to resort to subterfuge when you need to destroy someone higher than you in an organization that is out to make you fail. The key is how to do it without getting canned.
The firing of Wakamatsu and the way the Griffey thing transpired were all battles in this internal power struggle. One designed to embarrass and undermine Z, engineered by Armstrong, as payback to the Griffey handing, engineered by Z and Wakamatsu to start the takedown of Armstrong. Stay tuned.
And you know this how?
You are obviously privy to the inner workings of the Mariner front office, with information like that. Please continue to tell us exactly what is happening!
by pdb on Sep 3, 2010 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions
C'mon, pdb!
He can’t burn his sources!
Because we’re rebels. Accurate, intelligent, introspective rebels. And damn proud of it my friend. - CapSea
How do I know this
I don’t know it of course, but this is how people behave in big money, high stakes corporate situations. I fact this kind of nonsense is how people behave, period. And they are in fact people, and there is lots of money involved. And insane egos all around. And Armstrong’s a geriatric lawyer, so who knows what’s starting to go through his mind?
Just a theory. But I suppose there was never any politics in the Yankee front office either between the opposing factions in New York and Florida.
Z will win out, Armstrong will go on to become “something….something….emeritus”
Given the accuracy and rigor of your behavioral model
I’m wondering if we could get some predictions for the future of the organization, the city of Seattle, the state of Washington, and the future of “people” in general.
Remind me again why Armstrong and Z are in this cold war to begin with? Something to do Armstrong not liking the person he hired?
You said it yourself!
so who knows what’s starting to go through his mind?
NOBODY KNOWS!!! That’s the point – you can’t say “This is what’s going to happen” because, absent any factual information, you are in the class of people that do not know. They are, as you say, people – that doesn’t mean you know how they’re thinking.
by pdb on Sep 3, 2010 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions
You smell like vinegar and water... Who were you fighting with?!!
I sometimes find myself engaged in combat with hobos.
Didn't Armstrong hire Z?
Hasn’t Z been able to build the team the way he wants? Why would Z want Armstrong out?
If you really think Armstrong is running some sort of nefarious roster-making cabal, why wouldn’t he just have appointed himself GM back in 2003?
I am getting really, really sick of this conspiracy angle that everyone’s big on. You know, it is possible that the team just sucks.
If we're going to play the broad correlation game
The successful / unsuccessful epochs can be more readily correlated to the GMs:
Woodward – Generally Successful
Gillick – Generally Successful
Bavasi – Generally Unsuccessful
Z – TBD
or, if you want to really generalize, you can correlate to the CEO:
John Ellis – More successful
Howard Lincoln – Less successful
With Armstrong it’s actually impossible to do an ANOVA because he’s been constant. If he’d retired after 2003, would we be calling him the greatest FO officer ever in Seattle baseball? No. No we would not. But it doesn’t make sense to say the success was on the GM and the failure was on Armstrong.
Look, I don’t care one way or the other who the president or COO or whatever is, but I don’t think it actually matters from an on-field perspective.
My thing with Arstrong is this.
He has had two stints as President. He was NOT president from 1990-1992 when the core of our successful run was being put into place. I will always maintain that if he is president during that span the decent teams of 1995 onward never happen.
I'd never considered that,
and it’s an interesting argument, but as I think about the “core” of those late ‘90s teams, I don’t know of anyone who came to Seattle during the Smulyen years (1990 – 1992). The core, as far as I conceive of it:
Ken Griffey Jr – Drafted 1987 (during Armstrong’s first stint)
Edgar Martinez – First appearance in an M’s uniform 1987 (during Armstrong’s first stint)
Randy Johnson – Came to Seattle in the Mark Langston trade 1988 (during Armstrong’s first stint)
Jay Buhner – Traded to Seattle for Ken Phelps 1988 (during Armstrong’s first stint)
Lou Piniella – Hired by the new ownership group prior to the 1993 season (during Armstrong’s second stint)
Alex Rodriguez – Drafted 1993 (during Armstrong’s second stint)
Is there someone or something I’m missing from 1990 – 1992?
Now, I’m not going to claim that Armstrong was responsible for these moves (he wasn’t), but I don’t quite follow the argument that a core formed in 1990 – 1992 that wasn’t there before. Am I missing something?
by Andersean on Sep 3, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ha!
Well, no harm in that I suppose. He has been the constant face of a terrible last seven years, so maybe it’s more emotionally subjective than irrational.
Regardless, I’m not trying to commend the man, I’m just saying I don’t think his role matters as much as people seem to think regarding the on-field product.

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