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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

23-35

I'll say right now that, when Felix struggles, so does my mood. So much of my identity as a Mariner fan is tied up in Felix that I can't stand it when he underachieves. It whisks me away to a time, a bad time, a time when things were so much worse than they are for us now. I hate that time. I thought that we'd put it behind us. I never like dropping in for a visit.

With that said, given the loss tonight and the matchups the next two days, I think it's time for all of us to come to understand a certain difference. And that difference is the difference between hope, and realistic hope.

As Mariner fans - as sports fans - we'll always have hope. We'll always have hope that we can win a game, until we lose it. We'll always have hope that we can make the playoffs, until we miss them. And we'll always have hope that we'll be better in the future, until the future sucks. Hope is as simple as being able to envision success, and then wishing it will happen. Wherever there is possibility, there is hope.

Realistic hope is a whole other kettle of fish. Realistic hope doesn't exist when the probably is greater than zero. Realistic hope exists when the probability is above some lower threshold of significance. If the M's are behind 10-1, for example, there'll be hope (just one grand slam, and then maybe some baserunners...), but there won't be realistic hope (we never go deep and we never get baserunners). If the M's are behind 4-3, there'll be both.

We're to the point now in the season that we're approaching that threshold with regard to winning the division. Or maybe we've already passed it by. I don't know. I'm not sure which game is The Game that makes all the difference. But what I do know is that, while each of us can still imagine the M's making a run and the rest of the division stumbling, the longer we sit way down in the basement, the longer the odds become. At some point, we're praying for a miracle. Maybe not a resurrection-level miracle, but a miracle in the way that making it all the way home from the mountains with the gas light on is a miracle. It isn't impossible, but you'd really rather not be in that situation in the first place.

And as we all know, no one wants to be left hoping for a miracle. 1995 was a magnificent thing that happened to this organization and its fan base, but in a lot of ways, it was also a disaster, in that it established in a lot of minds that giving up is never an option. So many people always want to try and recapture that magic, but the thing that made it magic in the first place is that it was borderline impossible. It was magic because the M's would never in a thousand years do it again. You have to be realistic. You're always free to cling on to some last shreds of hope, but in your heart you have to possess an understanding of the situation.

I can't tell if we've been reduced to hoping for a miracle yet, but if we haven't, we're damn close. Closer than we ever thought we'd be in early June, and certainly closer than we ever wanted to be. Can they do it? Sure, they can do it. Will they do it? I don't have the answer, but I'd be more confident in saying 'no' than I've been all season long. It looks like it's time to get realistic. Both for us as fans, and for them as an organization. 2010 almost certainly isn't going to be the Mariners' year. And with that fate all but sealed, it's about time to turn the focus to making 2011 a year to remember.

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Atleast we have a bright future

as cliche as it is to say on this blog, it could be alot worse, we could be the royals. Plus, we actually have some really interesting prospects, with Pineda, Robles and Triunfel being some of the best and youngest players in AA. And Nick Franklin! Hooray for a highly underrated scouting and drafting team.

Peace, Love and West Coast Hip Hop, Go Mariners!

by E2ESQUARE on Jun 9, 2010 1:13 AM PDT reply actions  

I was noting ALL that the M's AAA, AA and two A ball clubs were over .500

Years and years ago, Bill James called that out as a good sign for an organization (it makes sense, better talent = more wins against your opposition).

by eponymous_coward on Jun 9, 2010 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's not very often I'm able to pick a game that truly puts me over that threshold.

But this game was it. I figured we’d win and lose the next two and just keep doing what we’ve been doing while gaining no ground. Tonight, I couldn’t even get excited for a Felix start. And our offense let Colby Lewis off the hook and I didn’t care. I’ve officially let go of 2010. 2011’s gonna be so awesome.

by Hopefulmsfan on Jun 9, 2010 1:20 AM PDT reply actions  

I look at talent levels and focus on hitting, and oh boy we suck.

But then refocus on pitching and defense and there’s a sliver of hope. Three sides to a triangle, stretch them or shorten them, the end result is still 360 degrees, right? And our division sucks. But then there’s that thing about counting on your opponents to fail, or however it goes… hrmph. Shit or get off the pot, suck on that one Sun Tzu

by Kermit. on Jun 9, 2010 1:52 AM PDT reply actions  

It's a shame the season ended up like this.

The team looked pretty good on paper. Unfortunately, there was always the issue of volatility with the roster. Aside from Cliff Lee the roster has seen pretty much all of the risks and none of the rewards. Throw in making Griffey and Sweeney the DH platoon you have the sizzle on the steak of failure.

This season also serves as a reminder that we have ways to go before the team develops a strong foundation.

by ThundaPC on Jun 9, 2010 2:50 AM PDT reply actions  

2011?

With the budget situation and the less than stellar free agent class I’m thinking 2012. Especially with Lopez, JaWil, Bradley and possibly Snell coming back. I would be a lot more enthusiastic for 2011 if the M’s could somehow rid themselves of JaWil and Lopez before August 1st.

by Jack Swan on Jun 9, 2010 3:54 AM PDT reply actions  

if you assume we dont keep Lee but retain all the other pieces we have,

I agree that 2011 doesn’t look all that good. However, we’ll have an offseason to work out solutions to the ’pen, 1B, C, and LF/DH. 3B and SS could also get flipped. Its all unkown which is what will make the next few months interesting.

Damn, my eyeball tastes good.

by Gekko Mojo on Jun 9, 2010 6:14 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I hope Lee brings back a touted C or SS.

If one of those is all he brings back I’ll be happy.

by Jack Swan on Jun 9, 2010 6:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think I would do this if I'm Seattle.

Swisher’s contract is up in a year, and I think we’re still hoping Adam Moore is capable of hitting as good as Cervelli would. In fact Moore has the much better minor league career. Not sure how they compare defensively. I think if we send Cliff Lee we’re going to want a more long term solution.

by dkulich on Jun 9, 2010 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think we could get better than Swisher and Cervelli.

I think I’d rather do the draft picks than that, is kind of what I was going for.

by dkulich on Jun 9, 2010 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

You might get draft picks if Swisher walks.

Would there be better one year options out there on the open market? Or would we be reduced to dumpster diving for first basemen again?

I don’t think I’d reject an offer for a useful player for 2011 out of hand. Compensatory draft picks do diddly-squat to help the team in 2011.

by eponymous_coward on Jun 9, 2010 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

As far as LF/DH

The Saunders/Bradley combo should be fine, maybe with a cheap RH DH thrown in.

As for SS, the question is whether Wilson’s defense really fell off the cliff, or was it just a sample size fluke.

by Rollo Tomasi on Jun 9, 2010 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

I hate feeling like this in early June. There are over 100 games to play.

Why do we have to suck so much? Why couldn’t Felix pitch more like Felix? Why is Rob Johnson on this team? We finally had a plan and but the plan didn’t work. The baseball gods hate us.

by TrustBaseball on Jun 9, 2010 7:43 AM PDT reply actions  

I agree about hating this happening by June.

(I’m writing from a mobile device. Please excuse typos.)

It’s what makes baseball much less fun to follow, especially compared to the NFL (to me, at least). It seems that, unlike in the NFL and NBA, the season ends far too early for too many MLB teams. I suppose that’s partly because supposed parity in the NFL (and the fact you only have to beat three teams to make the playoffs) and the fact that the NBA allows more than half of its teams onto the post-season.

This is somewhat of an aside, but I have two questions:

1. How can you bear to watch/follow the M’s anymore in 2010, and

2. Should the number of playoff teams be expanded to be more like the NFL (12) or NBA (16) instead of 8?

Sorry for being so cynical. It’s just that I’d rather follow a team that has a chance than win championships; I’d take consistent compelling seasons over a few championships now and then anyday. I said this same thing on the Portland Trailblazers’ blog, and of course, most people disagreed, as I’m sure you here at LL will too. I’m just weird that way.

by Cepstrum on Jun 9, 2010 8:14 AM PDT via mobile reply actions  

I can still follow the team as long as smart decisions are being made.

When the bad decisions near what I like to call the 2008 Threshold, then I’ll consider not watching on TV and not going to games. Until then, I’ll continue to watch and follow along.

And I mostly like the exclusivity of the MLB playoffs.

Because we’re rebels. Accurate, intelligent, introspective rebels. And damn proud of it my friend. - CapSea
A Work in Progress

by JLProck on Jun 9, 2010 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Answers to your questions

1. Because it’s baseball, and baseball is fun to watch. If not for the Mariners as a team, then for individual performers and for other teams.

2. No. Expanding the playoffs so that more mediocre teams get in is not the solution – making the Mariners better so they can get to the playoffs is.

by pdb on Jun 9, 2010 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

I admit that except for the fact that Felix was pitching, when I came home and the score was 7-1 I was a bit relieved.

If we had won, with two wins in a row over the Rangers, there I’d be crawling back to belief. Fuck that, it’s gone, it’s over. I don’t want to lose ever, but when I come home and it’s 7-1, I have no control over the score and I can say “I knew it”

I guess the best news I can give myself is that next year we will have either Cliff Lee, 3 high draft picks in a strong draft class, or a high draft pick and whatever we got for Cliff Lee in July.

by Kenneth Arthur on Jun 9, 2010 8:23 AM PDT reply actions  

What fans tend to forget about 1995

Yeah it was great that we had a miraculous comeback in 95, but you’re right that a comeback like that can never happen again. Because most fans forget about this part— the Mariners weren’t the only reason we won that year. We were only in that position because the Angels pulled off one of the biggest second half tank jobs in MLB history. Their loss was probably more significant to baseball history than our win.

999 times out of 1000, the Mariners go on a hot streak in 95 and it doesn’t make one bit of difference.

Anyone expecting that sort of thing to happen again (especially this year) just doesn’t really know their baseball history. Fun story, sure, go Mariners! 95 was great but it was a total fluke.

Building a successful baseball franchise is a lot like checkers in the movie Wargames. Listen to Joshua. Learn futility. Sometimes the only winning move is not to play.

by MarioMangler on Jun 9, 2010 8:30 AM PDT reply actions  

1995 wasn't a miracle.

There. I said it.

You know how many games out of being in the playoffs we were on the morning of August 2nd, when we were 13 back in the division? Two. Two games back with 55 games left to play.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/games/standings.cgi?date=1995-08-02

You know how many games out of being in the playoffs we were on the morning of August 24th, when we were 11 and a half back of the Angels? Four. Four games back with 35 left to play.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/games/standings.cgi?date=1995-08-23

It was an amazing end to the season and a wonderful story to beat the Angels for the division title, but the M’s were still in the playoff hunt even before the Angels tanked it.

by eponymous_coward on Jun 9, 2010 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

It was a miracle that they won the division

Not made the playoffs

You forget that in 1995 there was a stigma attached,a t least amongst players, to being a wild card winner and not a division winner. That’s why that comeback meant so much and that’s why there is no banner for the 2000 team.

by Poochie on Jun 9, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just cannot help it but in retrospect I think our season died before it started.

Griffey showed up out of shape and unable to play but did not ask to be put on the DL. Garko played his way off of the roster. Sweeney hacked his way onto the roster. But above all else right here is where our season all fell apart in my opinion.

by Sec 108 on Jun 9, 2010 9:31 AM PDT reply actions  

If anything, I would have thought that too,

but also in retrospect, we didn’t really miss Lee at all in April.

Our season fell apart when Cliff Lee came back and the 3-14 record we’ve posted against the AL West starting with that day.

by Matthew on Jun 9, 2010 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly. April was a minor miracle.

No one made contact, Cliff Lee was hurt, Bedard was re-hurting himself, RRS was imploding…. and the team was .500.

May killed this team, even though the hitters made contact, Cliff Lee was back (and amazing), and Fister continued his high-wire act. Unbelievable.

by marc w on Jun 9, 2010 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

From a function standpoint I agree with you.

I still think Lee’s first start on April 30th will be our turning point game for 2010.

That being said, the two things that killed us out of the gate were starting pitching and offense. I think our pitching could only have been better with Lee in there and Wak having the flexibility to drop RRS or Snell.

by Sec 108 on Jun 9, 2010 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think we counted too much on people that were high-risk / high reward.

But we knew that coming in. The odds of finding a Branyan, Gutti, or Aardsma (last year at least) every year are pretty slim. We need to remember that this was a horrible team as recently as 2008, and it will take some time to fully rebuild from the ground up.

"Because 100 luftballoons would be far too many"

by Thingray on Jun 9, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

I was looking at the standings yesterday

seeing us in fourth place, 7.5 games back – and yet I was confindent that we had a better chance to win the division than Toronto does with theirs. Even though they were also in fourth place, but only 4.5 games back.

If we have hope, it’s because we don’t think the teams ahead of us are that good.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Jun 9, 2010 9:33 AM PDT reply actions  

Toronto

is near the top of the league in homeruns hit and near the top of the league in pitching strike outs, that must be an exciting team to watch

by fortyniners on Jun 9, 2010 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

They aren't, but they don't have the baggage of being 12 under .500 to get over.

I just don’t see this roster playing well for months at a time as it’s currently constructed, and that’s what we have to do to get over .500. They might play OK, but I see it like this: the ~85 win true talent projection depended on a number of things that just aren’t coming true.

by eponymous_coward on Jun 9, 2010 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

I wonder how different the 2011 Mariners well look.

I just hope beyond all hope it doesn’t include Rob Johnson.

by Mariner Melee on Jun 9, 2010 10:49 AM PDT reply actions  

Does he really call a great game though?

I seem to recall that last year a lot of the pitches were called from the dugout. I think he’s here mostly because he’s a “good soldier”, and because we didn’t have any real options besides him at the start of the season. Plus they might have thought that his bat would come around after he had his surgeries to fix his multiple medical issues.

"Because 100 luftballoons would be far too many"

by Thingray on Jun 9, 2010 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't even think he calls a good game.

My guess, and no I have nothing to back this up, is that Rob Johnson is a ego stroker. He makes the pitchers happy because he is there own personal brown-nose buddy.

Just a guess, but nothing else makes sense. He doesn’t help them win. I mean he lets ball after ball bounces between his balls, he doesn’t hit and therefore cost the pitcher run support, and even if he called a decent game, its nothing the pitcher can’t or wouldn’t decide for himself.

Dude is a black hole, he has to be an ego stroker, there is no other way he could be perceived as even helpful.

by Mariner Melee on Jun 9, 2010 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

I do have a question about that though.

Do you believe (and don’t take this as sarcasm cause it’s an honest question) that Wak would ever use him as a back-up. The last 2 weeks he has been asking the pitchers who they want to throw to and they all pick Rob.

So as long as Wak and the Pitchers all have man crushes on the guy, is he ever going to be used as a back-up?

by Mariner Melee on Jun 9, 2010 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

They all had man crushes on Junior, too, and he got benched

If the Mariners had a guy who was clearly superior to Rob, he’d play more. We don’t have that guy.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jun 9, 2010 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah.

The vacuum at C is a pretty serious problem when combined with the M’s having very close to nothing at SS and 1B (Yes, I know, Paperboy: I still think that’s SSS), and the Milton Bradley/Griffdawg axis of suck.

You can survive one position at replacement level, maybe two, but three or four starts being a real problem.

I think the M’s in 2011 pretty much have to consider Wilson and Bradley Bedard-level players on the roster: “hey, if they contribute, great, but at this point, given their injury history, we need to have a VERY good backup plan”, as well as invest in C and 1B. They didn’t really do a good job of this in the offseason.

by eponymous_coward on Jun 9, 2010 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

The walks dropping off post April

and the still tragic defense led me to inserting ‘potential’.

I think his tangible ceiling is that of an average hitting catcher and below average defense. He might already be there with the bat but the defense… oh god the defense

by Matthew on Jun 9, 2010 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

Needs to actually play decent defense to be a decent backup.

I find it pretty hard to believe no-hit, decent glove Cs aren’t something pretty close to replacement level talent. Maybe I am thinking the minors are like BUll Durham or something, though.

by eponymous_coward on Jun 9, 2010 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

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