Maybe They Couldn't Afford Tickets

by Jeff Sullivan on Jun 30, 2010 2:04 PM PDT in Miscellaneous

Ken Rosenthal updating the Cliff Lee situation:

The scouting presence at Cliff Lee’s start at Yankee Stadium was not as extensive as one might think.

The Mets, Yankees, Rangers and Phillies were the only teams represented. The Twins, Dodgers and several other teams with interest in Lee did not attend.

The relatively low turnout was somewhat surprising, but it is still early in the trading season, with the non-waiver deadline is a month away.

I'm only posting this because I wonder why advance scouts exist anymore. Or at least, why they exist for purposes of scouting players like Cliff Lee. Cliff Lee is a 31 year old Major League veteran who's been nothing short of spectacular over his last 600 innings. He dominated in Cleveland. He dominated in Philadelphia. He dominated in the playoffs. He's dominated in Seattle. Cliff Lee is not some nebulous, unknown entity. Cliff Lee is very much known.

So why advance scout him at all? You're just spending money you don't have to spend. Everybody knows Lee's pitches. Everybody knows his strengths and weaknesses. Everybody knows about his delivery. The scout's gun will be less accurate than the PITCHfx data. And if Lee gets hurt or something, it'll become news pretty fast, whether you have a scout in attendance or not. That's not one of those things Lee and the Mariners could keep to themselves.

I don't get it. I don't get why teams are always advance scouting some veterans they might trade for. And I certainly don't get why they couldn't just save money and watch those players on TV. On TV, you can advance scout several players at once!

It's one thing to advance scout, I dunno, some guy like Sam LeCure that you haven't ever seen before. But a player like Cliff Lee before a trade? Seems awful pointless.

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Aren't the Mariners one of the teams to have dumped advance scouts in favor of in-house data analysts?

I think Baker or Divish mentioned something along those lines prior to the 2009 season.

by BrianL on Jun 30, 2010 2:07 PM PDT reply actions

I don't know if they've completely dumped them

but they do scout upcoming opponents in-house using crazy analytics.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jun 30, 2010 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions

Here's the link I was looking for

Link

One new development with the Mariners that kind of got lost in the crazed aftermath of that 12-player J.J. Putz trade is that Seattle will no longer use an advance scout for games. This role is instead being transfered to the team’s new department of statistical analysis. The idea is that the team will receive video of their opponents and have workers in the new department break down each pitch from a statistical viewpoint. They can grade the break on curve balls, tendencies to throw certain pitches in certain situations, figure out what hitters like to swing at, that sort of thing.

by BrianL on Jun 30, 2010 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions

Half the teams in MLB have dumped advance scouting...

‘According to Bruce Benedict, the former Braves catcher and current advance scout for the Cardinals, just 15 or 16 of the 30 major league teams have advance scouts. Those who don’t have advance men use video and computer systems and track tendencies through statistics.’

by msb on Jun 30, 2010 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions

Just reading what Rosenthal wrote, I was going to comment about "Why do they need scouts at a Cliff Lee game anyways"

But you summed it up much more perfectly then I would have anyway.

You’re going to get a better look at Cliff Lee on that 55" LED if you really need to.

This is Rosenthal making an excuse to write an article about Cliff Lee because Cliff Lee articles are hot right now.

by Kenneth Arthur on Jun 30, 2010 2:07 PM PDT reply actions

Why bother sending scouts anyway when we are going to sign him to a 10 year below market contract starting tomorrow.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Jun 30, 2010 2:09 PM PDT reply actions 10 recs

I think you are correct

by Poochie on Jun 30, 2010 2:15 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions

I'll say! I have tickets to the upcoming Yankee series and it cost $42 for on outfield seat!y

TV is indeed much cheaper!

by Poochie on Jun 30, 2010 2:14 PM PDT via mobile reply actions

And the Juggs guns don't work too well from out there either.

by sigalert on Jun 30, 2010 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions

Baker speculated that the Phillies scout wasn't there to watch Lee, anyway

by msb on Jun 30, 2010 2:16 PM PDT reply actions

Baker speculated that if he wrote an article with a "different angle" people would care.

by Kenneth Arthur on Jun 30, 2010 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions

It's a living.

by msb on Jun 30, 2010 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions

I'll stay on topic then and say that scouts go to games and we have no idea what the specific reason they are there for.

You can guess they probably aren’t there to scout Derek Jeter, but there are a lot of players out there – we can’t be sure which ones they want to see. Probably a number of them.

by Kenneth Arthur on Jun 30, 2010 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions

Let's not have another one of these subthreads

Thank you

by Jeff Sullivan on Jun 30, 2010 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions

The Phils are now playing a sickening combo of Wilson Valdez and Greg Dobbs, so yeah I could see them pursuing other priorities.

by abender20 on Jun 30, 2010 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions

The Phils should definitely be looking at Jose Lopez.

I’m just not sure what last nights game would change for them after 3,000 at bats from a very consistent player. I suppose there is the defensive aspect however, which can’t be overlooked.

by Kenneth Arthur on Jun 30, 2010 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions

It would make very little sense if they needed to rescout Lee.

They kind of did that once, then watched him for a couple months.

by Fuckmikereilly on Jun 30, 2010 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions

For what it is worth, Churchill adds the Yankees to the list

Link

by csiems on Jun 30, 2010 2:23 PM PDT reply actions

I'd love to know....

if any of the scouts went back to their team and said “I’m just not sure that he’s a good fit. It looks like smoke and mirrors to me.”

With pitch f/x data, I am sure every team in baseball knows how often Cliff Lee throws a curveball in 1-1 counts against right handers in away games. It’s totally ridiculous.

Any GM in baseball can call up his video guy and say “Hey Bobby, get me a DVD of Cliff Lee’s last 5 starts.” and an hour later it would be in his hand.

It would take him all of about 30 minutes to watch them because Cliff Lee is fucking awesome.

by PLU Tim on Jun 30, 2010 2:44 PM PDT reply actions