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Around SBN: Win or Lose, Boston Celtics' New Big 3 Era A Success

Saving Baseball in Seattle


I wrote this on Lookout Landing on Griffey's birthday back in November of 2007. After getting Jeff's approval, I am reposting it here, below. At the end of this piece I make a claim that I'd like to address now that it has become a reality (bolded for emphasis), and hopefully this will stimulate some discussion.

Star-divide

On June 22nd, 2007, Ken Griffey Jr. returned to Seattle for the first time since 1999. I was at that game. I arrived 2½ hours early and stood in right field waiting for Griffey to take batting practice. He wasn't up right away, and as I waited in that corner, fans started pouring into the seats with the same thought in mind "If I can catch one of these batting practice home runs, I will die happy." When it was finally Griffey's turn, the small group of twenty-somethings that had filled the seats was already cheering louder than the majority of games when the stadium was full. We held up signs that had been given to us before the game, and at least half of the crowd sported an early 90's Mariner jersey with the number 24 sewn onto the back. A few fly balls went our way, and even when the ball was more than fifty feet away, you could see yourself catching it, rushing it home, telling all your friends and displaying it above your fireplace, eventually handing it off to your grandkids.

After batting practice was over, it was time for the Ken Griffey Jr. tribute ceremony. The seats were already packed to the brim and everyone was on their feet, giving a standing ovation to the Diamond Vision monitor as it began its long tribute video. Seattle Mariner icons like Dave Niehaus, Alvin Davis and Jay Buhner were quoted on the screen, each receiving cheers of their own from the anxious crowd. Finally a clip video set to Aerosmith's "Dream On" played a montage of Griffey's moments in Seattle:


- The homerun in the 8th consecutive game

- The catch against the wall that broke Griffey's hand - Hat backwards

- Junior and Senior

- The All Star Game homerun in Baltimore that was belted into space

- The 100th, 200th, 300th and 398th homeruns of his career (as well as several in between)

- The home run robbing catch in 1990 and his smile of pure joy as he himself realized he brought it back.

- The game winning home run in 1995, the first home run since coming off the DL and the beginning of the most improbable comeback in MLB history.

- "They're gonna wave him in! They throw to the plate will be..... LATE! The Mariners are going to play for the American league championship!"


Everyone in the audience must have seen that final clip a hundred times in the 12 years since Griffey was seen on the bottom of that pile. But if you looked around any section in the stadium at that moment you would have seen at least twenty grown men tearing up, as though all the happiness of their childhood finally came back to them in one fleeting instant.

The game itself was forgettable. At least it hopefully will be someday, as the Mariners ended up losing by 15 in what could arguably be the most disgraceful defeat of the 2007 season. But once the game was over, every individual that attended couldn't help but feel somehow complete, as though by bringing back Griffey it reminded all of us why we cared about the Mariners and why we care about baseball. With no disrespect intended towards Jay Buhner, Randy Johnson or Edgar Martinez, it was Griffey that gave us baseball and showed us why we love the sport.

There are critics who argue that Griffey did not save baseball in Seattle - and these critics are met with the collective stares of the Griffey generation, their mouths agape, unable to comprehend the very idea let alone form a cohesive argument against it. "It wasn't Griffey, it was Edgar and Buhner and A-rod" they say, or "Read `Out of Left Field' by Art Thiel" the critics cite, "the Seattle fanbase didn't even play that great a role in keeping the Mariners in Seattle."

But therein lies the disconnect between those two viewpoints. Critics argue that he did not save the Mariners. But what they do not realize is it was not the Mariners that needed saving. It was baseball. Baseball in Seattle had become irrelevant. The Seattle Mariners were not a baseball team, they were a citywide joke - a benign cancer that people knew was there but generally ignored because it barely affected their daily life. Sure, some parents still tried to teach their children to throw and catch, but why? Why would the youth waste their time on a sport whose home team in 1988 was approximately thirty-six games out of first place, and whose sole all-star game representation the previous two years was Harold Reynolds whose offensive production numbers placed him pitifully in the bottom 50% of all active hitters. In fact, in 1987, his "All Star caliber numbers" had him hitting slightly worse than Nick Punto hit in 2006, which put him far below average but just a hair above absolutely terrible. How could the team playing in a stadium that was basically a giant concrete breast implant possibly teach thousands of young kids why they should care about baseball?

It couldn't. And it didn't. The kids born in and around the early 80's were completely disinterested. Even the adults had grown apathetic. People watched baseball, but they were not fans of baseball. It was a sport like any other, and had football been on TV five times a week, there is no doubt it would have been watched instead. Baseball was like a cheesy sitcom - you'd watch it when nothing else was on, and enjoy it for the same reason.

That's when Griffey came.

At 19 years old, Ken Griffey Jr. was anything but intimidating. His smile could be described as "goofy" at best (although the infamous ear to ear smile is one of everyone's fondest Griffey memories), his hair was like that of a little boy's that hates shampoo, and his stature was closer to brittle than it was to brawny. While his father may have been a member of "The Big Red Machine," his son looked more like "The little engine that could."

But from the moment he hit a double in his first at-bat, and a homerun off his first pitch at the Kingdome, you could tell the Kid was something special. It wasn't his numbers that were particularly impressive, nor was it his "potential." It was the pinnacle of baseball that you could see in everything he did - the purity and perfection of his game. Babe Ruth may have been one of the greatest players of all time, but Ruth was a big man; a big man who swung hard and hit well. With Griffey it was different. Griffey was the essence of baseball. He was pure skill incarnate. Watching him hit was like visual poetry. And the ease with which he used his glove was nothing short of extraordinary. Willie Mays became well known for "The Catch." Griffey made that same catch almost weekly. He performed acrobatic feats that would make Olympians jealous, and his glove caught more hard hit balls than an overworked urologist.

And then there was his swing. Never in the history of athletics has something so perfect been repeated so consistently. Baseball was invented for Junior's swing, and we were lucky enough to bear witness. Before the bat left his shoulder, you could see it seething. It hungered for the pitch, swaying in anticipation, growing more and more impatient as the pitcher hesitated in his wind up. If you watched each pitch carefully, you could see the ball attempt to hang on to the pitcher's fingers, reaching backwards to no avail, trying to hang on rather than meet its fate. And Griffey embarrassed the ball. Humiliated it. It wasn't an at-bat, it was an execution. The ball was a mentally challenged prisoner and Griffey was the Texas justice system.

As the bat cut through the air it was like the world stopped. Fans were on their feet before the bat hit the ball, because when you watched Griffey swing - you knew. And so did Griffey, as he would drop his bat effortlessly behind him and begin his confident trot around the bases before the pitcher had time to turn around. Every homerun that Griffey hit was a moment I never wanted back.

Griffey was baseball. He was more than just a Seattle athlete, he was THE athlete. He brought baseball into the lives of not only the younger generation but generations since, as those that he touched are starting to have kids of their own and are teaching their kids the game of baseball that they came to know. No one, not Edgar, not Jay, not Alvin Davis, not Barry Bonds - not even Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle or Joe DiMaggio could ever have had the effect on baseball that Griffey had in Seattle. He single handedly changed the meaning of "Goodbye Baseball" into something wonderful. He saved baseball for a generation that almost grew up without it.

In January of 1988, Ken Griffey Jr., then only 18 years old, attempted suicide by swallowing over 200 aspirins. He was rushed to the hospital, had his stomach pumped, and survived. I can tell you without pause that I would not be anyone if he had succeeded. Without Griffey, I would not be interested in baseball. Without baseball, I would not have been interested in sports, and without sports, I would be nowhere.

Finally, someone said about the game this past year "Griffey is the kind of person that you can put into a crowded stadium with 40,000 people cheering for him and only one person booing, and he will hear the boo. At that game, no one booed." No one. And I can honestly say that I would sacrifice 2 or 3 years of playoff appearances if it meant I could watch Griffey play in a Mariner uniform again, because it is thanks to him that I will be able to enjoy baseball long after he's gone.

So here's to you on your 38th birthday, Griffey. I hope you have several more years of health and happiness, and I will continue to check the Cincinnati box scores until the day you retire. You may not have saved the Mariners, but you still saved baseball for me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have now had the opportunity to watch Griffey for over a year on the Mariners. During that year, he's been a shell of his former self. Last year I'd argue he was actually better than his numbers implied, but this year it's clear that the cliff he fell off of was steep, and he's not likely to climb his way back to the top before season's end.

Despite this year's struggles, I can honestly say that my opinion hasn't changed. I'm a Mariner fan. I want the Mariners to win. I want the Mariners to get to the playoffs. I want the Mariners to win the world series. Yet despite all that, Griffey is the reason I like baseball at all. Without Griffey, I wouldn't have enjoyed baseball, and without baseball, I wouldn't have been a fan of the Mariners.

That is not to say that things haven't changed. Griffey had been gone for 8 years and I was still a Mariner fan. Griffey will retire and I will still be a Mariner fan. When Griffey grounds out to second with the bases loaded in a short game, I get upset that we're going to lose the game and that Griffey blew it.

But even when he's terrible, I am still happy to see him in a Mariner uniform, and while he should retire soon, in many ways I am not ready for him to go. Griffey's last day will be an end to an era that I'm not entirely ready for, even though I know it's time.

I don't have much of a point to this FanPost. Only that I want to offer a different perspective on this situation. I don't give a damn about 1995. I give a damn about April 3rd, 1989. When Griffey is the one and only problem on this roster, ask me again and maybe I'll be more interested in his retirement. But until the other roster problems are fixed, it's simply not possible for me to be upset about his presence.

---------------------------------------------------------

Griffey Tribute Video can be found in this link. I have yet to figure out how to download from MLB.

Comment 115 comments  |  20 recs  | 

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"I have yet to figure out how to download from MLB"

1. Download & installSDP Multimedia.
2. Right click in the video you want to download and copy the mms:// address.
3. Go to File → Open in SDP.
4. Paste the address into the box.
5. Go to Setup → Setup Options.
6. Select HTTP as your protocol.
7. Click Go in the main window and choose a destination for the file.
8. Go get a coffee, it will take a while.

by Vatinius on May 22, 2010 5:33 PM PDT reply actions   2 recs

Oh neat, thanks. I'll have to try it out.

I emailed MLB about it 2 years ago and they wrote back “Thank you for your email. Videos from major league baseball are hosted on our website, ”http://www.mlb.com" target="_blank">www.mlb.com. Thanks again for your interest and let us know if you have any additional questions."

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 22, 2010 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks.

I remember when you originally posted this and I liked it then. It’s worthwhile to think about now. I aged from 9 to 19 through the 90’s when Griffey was at the height of his powers. That’s a pretty impressionable period of life and although through this website and USSM I’ve come to appreciate the detached analysis of the game I don’t know if I will ever be able to be truly upset at Ken Griffey Jr. wearing a Mariners uniform. No matter how God awful he may be at this point.

by TheBishop on May 22, 2010 8:36 PM PDT reply actions  

Thank you for this.

Your point about the apathy the area felt towards baseball in the 1980s is right on. I was eight in 1984 when Alvin Davis was ROY. That was the first year I really started following baseball and he became (and remains) my favorite player. I remember the first Mariners cap I got and how happy I was to wear it to school. I was laughed at for wearing a Mariners cap. I lived in Olympia, so it’s not like there was another team in town. I was laughed at for wearing the home team’s cap to school.

It really did take Griffey’s arrival for fans to start coming around on the Mariners. Yes, he’s old and to say he’s a shell of his former self is probably too much praise for his current skills (and an insult to his younger self). I know there are a lot of fans out there who like to think that Edgar, A-Rod, Randy or even Buhner had just as much, if not more, to do with “saving” baseball in Seattle. They are wrong.

I can’t quantify why they are wrong, so it doesn’t do any good to argue the point and I can respect their opinion. However, for Mariner fans who grew up in the 1980s around Seattle and witnessed the transformation that took place after Junior arrived in 1989 nothing needs to be quantified. They know, because they were there and understand.

No matter where you go, there you are.

by KC Mariner on May 23, 2010 6:52 AM PDT reply actions  

Getting rid of Griffey does not guarantee better baseball.

When we have problems at 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, C, #5 SP, and our middle relief, I am not going to freak out about our part-time DH being bad. As CapSea said, if we had fixed most of the other problems and Junior was the person holding us back from the division title, then yeah I’d love another option. But the fact is maybe we’d be 18-25 instead of 16-27 if we had gotten rid of Junior. Either way, until Kotch, Lopez, Chone, and our Cs start hitting, we will not be able to do anything anyway.

So if the options are 80-82 with Griffey being released or 75-89 with Griffey hitting 2 HRs and OPSing in the .500s, give me Junior. Obviously those aren’t the only two choices but just my opinion

Go Nova

by dbroncos31 on May 23, 2010 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

I simply don't get the appeal of watching someone fail at baseball.

Why not bring back ALL of the 1995 Mariners, then (well, except for A-Rod, since he’s under contract)? I’m sure you could make a roster with them for fairly inexpensive and they might even win 5 or 10 games by accident. Boom, all your nostalgia needs in one easy package.

by eponymous_coward on May 24, 2010 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Because 5 wins is a lot less than 75

And it’s not like he’s gonna bat .000/.000/.000 for the next 4 months.

And seriously, half our team is failing at baseball. Where’s the outrage for any of them (other than RoboCatch)? When Jr is actually keeping us from doing anything, then I’d support a froced retirement kind of deal. But he’s not holding us back from anything.

Go Nova

by dbroncos31 on May 24, 2010 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm sorry for that.

I just feel so blown away that no one else is appalled to the level I am that he is taking up a roster spot. The whole “other players suck too” argument does not fly for me because all of those other sucky players can beat me in a foot race. Junior cannot. They also can play defense. Junior cannot.

by Sec 108 on May 24, 2010 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

They also don't suck nearly as badly as Junior.

And there is reason to believe that they aren’t likely to continue sucking. I don’t think it’s any secret, but I am firmly with you on this one.

by Aaron Campeau on May 24, 2010 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

I am amazed at how angry it is making me.

It isn’t healthy. It is frustrating because on a rational level I completely get where CapSea and many others are coming from.

by Sec 108 on May 24, 2010 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

I used to love the personalities more than the performance.

Meeting a bunch of pro athletes and recording musicians ruined that for me. Now all I root for is a good performance. The personality means nothing to me now.

by Sec 108 on May 24, 2010 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

I like players based on their personalities as well as their performance

but I can’t picture ever caring about anything more than the well-being of the franchise.

by Aaron Campeau on May 24, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nah, I totally get where you're coming from.

My feelings on this would be 100% different if I felt he was an anchor on our team. I just can’t get worked up about my all-time favorite player sucking when I really can’t see how replacing him would really help.

If he were to retire today, I would be happy that he went out on his terms (kind of) and that our team would be better. But I would be upset with the FO if we actually outright released him because to me there would be no point.

I also will admit this is irrational.

Go Nova

by dbroncos31 on May 24, 2010 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

It's fairly easy.

We have a player (Milton Bradley) who’s being paid a rather large amount of cash, and his best position is DH (plus he tends to be a bit brittle, so playing him in the field isn’t a great idea).

We have a second player (Saunders) who is rotting on the bench right now instead of getting time in AAA or ABs in the majors, who also has flashed some power while he was getting ABs during MB’s absence. Oh, and this team needs power and offense desperately, as well as a + defense, + offense LHB.

by eponymous_coward on May 24, 2010 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

I guess I don't understand why Griffey isn't an anchor because someone else is bad/unlucky/etc.

Griffey is, at this point, the worst hitter on the team. He’s also a designated hitter.
I think most of us in the ’it’s time to move on’ camp stop here, and I think I’m not alone in finding the counterargument (“but Figgins is batting .200!”) a little odd. The decision on what to do with the DH spot doesn’t rest on the wOBA of your 2B, C, or LF. It may rest on your internal options at DH, and I think that’s the best argument for keeping Griffey (though it seems pretty impossible at this point to say that Nelson/Carp/Bradley/whoever would be worse)… but it seems like sidestepping the issue a bit.

I am completely with you in that I want him to go out on his own; I want him to recognize what everyone else seems to recognize, and do the right thing accordingly. Failing that, I think he needs to at least listen if Z wants to discuss a new role with the team.

One of the reasons I (and everyone else) loved Junior was how joyous he made baseball look. The catch off Barfield’s drive in New York was described lyrically above, and it sums up what made him such a phenomenon, at least to me. Dale Murphy had been more valuable than early-period Griffey, but Griffey transcended the game – you couldn’t take your eyes off the guy, and thus he got thousands to tune in and listen every night. Well before 1995, he made M’s games compelling in a way even Davis/Langston never did. He and RJ gave M’s fans hope, and that was worth so fucking much.
And it’s why I don’t get wanting to watch more of 2010-era Griffey. This is macabre. It’s not just Griffey, but ‘joy’ is about the last word you’d use to describe Griffey or any given M’s game now. I think the only thing keeping him going is trying to shut up doubters like me. But Griffey’s never been that guy, and it’s painful to watch him try to pull it off (or rather, to watch Mike Sweeney explain it to reporters on Griffey’s behalf). It feels wrong on so many levels, and I just want it to stop. Of course it’d make the team better, but I would accept MORE losses if it meant I didn’t have to watch this anymore.

by marc w on May 24, 2010 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions   6 recs

See, this is my issue with Wakamatsu and by extension Zduriencik:

He was apparently willing to accept a greatly reduced role this season, and Wak made him the starting DH.

by Aaron Campeau on May 24, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I had a much longer response, but for the sake of brevity I will imitate Ichiro.

“I agree.”

Does the World Series trophy come with a plate of bacon?

by PositivePaul on May 24, 2010 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Okay, If I was in charge

and I’m glad I’m not, Griff would be a Pinch Hitter and get a start every week or so. So I agree he’s getting too much time, but I just don’t understand the vitriol for him.

Like he wins us a game the other day (a WIN) and people are upset…I just don’t understand. Obviously he’s a bad player now (2x worse than our 2nd worst players Tui and Figgins) but him taking up the 25th man role is far from our biggest problem.

I’m not annoyed by the calling for the benching, but at the outright anger and hatred for a guy who was huge for this team.

Go Nova

by dbroncos31 on May 24, 2010 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

And he was compensated handsomely for it.

I appreciate Griffey’s contribution to the team when he was good, I really do. But it’s not as though he performed charity work. He sucks and he makes the team worse and his knob is still somehow slobbered over by a huge portion of the fanbase and the media. I’m tired of it, I’m tired of watching him hit and I’m tired of having nostalgia forced down my throat. I could deal with it last year. This year? Fuck him.

by Aaron Campeau on May 24, 2010 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions   5 recs

Living in NY keeps me away from the knob-slobbing.

In fact it almost seems to me that it’s gone 100% the other way, as all I hear about him are negatives. I can certainly see how annoying it must be to hear the casual fans and broadcasters give him verbal fellatio every night.

Go Nova

by dbroncos31 on May 25, 2010 5:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

"was" is the key word in that last sentence

He WAS huge for this team. But that was years ago. Now he’s just huge.

by pdb on May 24, 2010 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

True

But to me, being that huge has given him a longer leash. Last year he was okay, and this year we’ve reached the end. I was annoyed with him the first few weeks when his presence may have actually kept us from being the AL West leaders, but at this point I don’t see the harm in keeping him around; clearly the players like it. Should he be getting everyday at bats? Not a chance.

Go Nova

by dbroncos31 on May 25, 2010 5:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

He was huge for this team 10 years ago. Now he's just huge.

The anger is because he gets to keep taking ups space (lots of it) on the bench. He has no business in MLB this year. He might not be blocking anyone in Tacoma, but he’s blocking any minor league player that the M’s should be looking at. He is not the future of this team anymore and the sooner that is realized, the better. I don’t hate him, I just don’t want him on the 25 man roster.

by TrustBaseball on May 25, 2010 11:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

The whole ordeal is challenging my fandom

I absolutely hate this season and this team

by Poochie on May 24, 2010 8:12 PM PDT up reply actions   5 recs

I don't see him as that symbol though.

And I don’t feel that he is holding us back.

Was bringing him back this year dumb? YES YES YES YES YES. Last year ended perfectly; he would have gone out on top. But given that we are unlikely to be going anywhere this season, I don’t see a good reason to release him at this point.

Again, if we go on a 35-10 run and he’s preventing us from maximizing our roster, then force him into retirement

Go Nova

by dbroncos31 on May 24, 2010 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

He is not going to be the piece

that makes or breaks a sustained run.

The best solution is a 60 day DL trip and a return in September where he hopefully can hit a homer or two. I’m just shocked by the hatred for Junior and I feel that it is unfair.

Go Nova

by dbroncos31 on May 24, 2010 7:15 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

This is not hatred.

This is me as a consumer asking “Why” when I ordered a 4" thick prime porterhouse I was given beef jerky.

by Sec 108 on May 24, 2010 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would respect pro-Griffey partisans more if it didn't always end up in histrionics like this.

People can say that Griffey has no baseball value and is currently a waste of a roster spot.

That doesn’t in any way, shape, or form mean that they “hate” him.

by Jeff Nye on May 24, 2010 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not saying you or anyone else in this thread

“hate” him. I’m not trying to resort to histrionics. But the % of people voting hate in the fan gauge poll was more than I thought it would be; right there is a large number of Mariners fans saying that they “hate” him.

But honestly tell me most people weren’t pissed that Junior hit the game-winning single the other night. I just feel that Jr has become the scapegoat for this team, as if he was replaced we’d be 100% better off.

Again, I agree that he is easily the worst player on the team and will be below replacement level all year. I’m not advocating him as our starting DH or anything; I just would rather not see him thrown out of the door Jazz style.

Go Nova

by dbroncos31 on May 25, 2010 5:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's not that all of our problems would disappear, but there is a 100% likelihood of the team improving

if they dropped Junior for…anybody else. You’re right that the incremental gain from doing so probably doesn’t make the difference in the divisional race, but we can’t say that about any other position on the roster.
Would replacing Chone Figgins make the team better? No one knows for sure, but the answer is probably no. Kotchman? Ehh, you can make an argument, but it’s not settled by any stretch, and Matthew and others have pointed out that Kotchman’s been unlucky. Tui? Sure, but who would his replacement be? Chris Woodward? At DH, you will get someone better, and even the Griffey partisans recognize it. Brad Nelson isn’t good, but he would improve the team.

At this point, Griffey’s presence on the roster indicates that the team isn’t terribly interested in contending or putting out the best team it can, either for 2010 or for 2011 and beyond. The frustration you’re seeing comes from people who blame Griffey in part for the failings of the 2010 team, and blame him for the FO’s inability to move forward and see which players can help them stick with Texas in 2011/12. None of this is Griffey’s fault, but I think we can all agree that this is a real problem. You may think that we’re overstating the problem, but I hope we all recognize that this situation goes beyond the M’s minuscule 2010 playoff odds.

by marc w on May 25, 2010 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions   4 recs

I say that Tui's replacement would be Ramon Vazquez.

Beats the hell out of Woodward, but it’s still not doing much.

But at what point will we just suck it up and play for next year, and if we give up now, can we just keep playing Griffey to satiate the fanbase?

I can't resist clicking "Rec" when I see a post with four [of them] already.

by thehemogoblin on May 25, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

What happens if we continue satiating the fanbase, and Griffey wants to come back next year?

He’s made it clear that he’s not ready to retire, so if the line’s not drawn, when will it end?

by xero3k on May 25, 2010 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would hope that if Griffey wants back

then it plays out like I posted below. There are ways the organization can take the high road by offering Grifey a chance to stay with the team but not as a player.

No matter where you go, there you are.

by KC Mariner on May 25, 2010 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

No I agree that it's a serious problem

 and the fact that we brought him back this year (along with the Sweeney ST debacle) gave me pause about our otherwise fantastic FO decisions. In my perfect world, Griffey and Sweeney retired after last year and the only time Junior stepped foot onto the Safeco grass was for his jersey retirement.

I’m just frustrated that the team brought this upon themselves but the player who was signed by the team is getting the blame. No one knew he’d be this bad, but most people felt he’d be a replacement level player at best.

To me the blame falls on the team for signing him, not on him for being old

Go Nova

by dbroncos31 on May 25, 2010 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

I want the Mariners to field the team that best benefits the health of the oranization.

In a year you’re contending, it means the absolute best collection of players. In a year that you are not contending, it means a combination of best available players, young talent that deserves a closer look at the MLB level and fringe players that are interesting enough to merit in trial.

Griffey fits neither scenario; he is terrible, has no hope of improving on his true talent level, is not part of the future and prevents players like Nelson, Everidge and Carp from playing time. He has no place on this (or any) team, and with that being the case he is holding back the organization. He needs to be gone.

by Aaron Campeau on May 24, 2010 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

If the Mariners go on a hot streak with Junior getting ABs

dumping him while the team’s hot turns into a DePodesta moment where everyone goes “but clubhouse chemistry! hugs! you’re making changes for no reason while the team is going well! obviously Griffey’s the glue holding the team together!”

by eponymous_coward on May 24, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's very arguable that DePodesta did the right thing baseball-wise

However, he wasn’t good at handling personalities or at managing the LA press, which ate him alive over things like this.

And the point is that basically, if your argument is “Well, if the team gets hot, Griffey needs to stay because of chemistry, and if the team sucks he needs to stay because who cares”, what’s the argument for EVER replacing him as long as he wants to play ball? Why shouldn’t he try to play to 50 like Julio Franco?

by eponymous_coward on May 24, 2010 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know if that was the FO's argument.

I think it probably was “He’s a franchise icon and we have reason to believe that he may not be terrible. Oh, shit, he’s terrible. Well, now what? Boy, what a pickle!” and then a lot of inaction based on the situation they placed themselves in.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 24, 2010 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

As evidence of why they may not have thought he would be terrible.

If you take a look at his wOBAr for 2009, you’ll see that it was actually a fairly healthy .365. Not great for a DH, but not bad. There is ample reason to believe that the wOBAr is skewed because he fell off a cliff, but it wouldn’t be a huge surprise if the FO looked at a number like that and though to themselves “Hey! He might have been unlucky last year. I bet he’ll post at minimum a .335 wOBA this year, probably more, plus he can help Bradley and still be the face of the franchise!” only to find out that the cliff he fell from was steeper than they had anticipated.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 24, 2010 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Uh...

Regression to a mean only works when the mean is stable. Griffey’s OBP and SLG have slid down pretty consistently from 2005 (with a small jump in 2007).

Any GM who didn’t think Griffey was a significant collapse risk in 2010 was doing some serious Bavasi-level wishful thinking.

by eponymous_coward on May 24, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

You can act confused all you want but if you design a statistic that is expected to take into account luck factors

and there is reason to believe that that he had been unlucky, it’s pretty easy to convince yourself that it’s true. His wOBAr is based on his own mean rates, not the rates of the league as a whole, it’s not remotely a stretch to believe that even a stats based FO may see something in those numbers. Players don’t usually fall off a cliff this bad and this hard like Griffey did. This was a pretty substantial drop.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 24, 2010 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Jeff Cirillo. Richie Sexson. Player A.

Let’s toss in Ronny Cedeno and Yuni. Jim Presley. Alvin Davis.

Edgar and Olerud in their last years as Ms lost a bunch of ability, too (big drops in SLG/OBP rather than gradual ones)- the difference being they weren’t marginal players to begin with.

And those are just Mariners. You want HOFers? Willie Mays, Mike Schmidt, Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron all had big ugly declines where they lost buckets of ability all in one year. Could probably add more if I had time.

by eponymous_coward on May 24, 2010 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

"Ronny Cedeno and Yuni."

That’s just retarded, don’t even bother bringing in players that were never good. Regardless, none of that addresses that at the time they may or many not have had statistics that showed they had been unlucky. The blessing of statistics is still the curse of statistics. The more stats they create that help them figure out factors like luck and projections, the more reasons they have to ignore things that can be seen with the naked eye.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 24, 2010 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't see it as a pickle.

Junior said he wants to help the team when he signed. Well, he can help the team by not playing very much or at all- the organization certainly doesn’t have to go out of their way to snub him, but if nobody can put the big boy pants and tell Junior he belongs on the bench, the DL or the DFA list (if he wants to leave if we bench him) or the voluntarily retired list (if he’d rather just go home than not play very much). If it makes him go into a snit, well, he’s full of crap, isn’t he?

by eponymous_coward on May 24, 2010 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is not what I was addressing.

I was addressing why the FO may have thought it was a good idea to bring him back. He should be benched, absolutely, but it would have been a better idea for the FO to let him walk. The argument you are making is that they brought him back solely because of team chemistry, and I’m pointing out that no, they may have actually found reason to believe he’d be a useful contributor, with the chemistry/nostolgia factor second.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 24, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

I am pretty skeptical on that score.

Again, the overall body of work the last few years says Griffey’s a last man on the bench kind of guy. If the argument was “well, we thought a 40 year old DH with lots of injury history and consistently declining power and on base might be good, and we don’t really need to think about what happens if he blows and we are faced with having to tell our franchise’s most beloved player he’s done”, that’s a pretty damning indictment of the FO’s ability to plan for contingencies and fairly foreseeable potential outcomes.

by eponymous_coward on May 24, 2010 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Organizations have blind spots.

They put themselves in the same position when they invited Sweeney to spring training in the first place, and look what happened. Recent production aside, inviting him to spring training at all one could already see the massive implications, and yet they did it anyway. I think it’s clear the FO has some problems with this type of foresight.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 24, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Sweeney example is something I hadn't thought of.

However, it brings up a good point. Maybe a big weakness in the FO is not being able to see second and third order effects of the decisions they make. With Griffey, they might have assumed a better DH option would emerge over the course of the winter (they did sign him REALLY early in the offseason). With Sweeney, they might have thought he had nothing left and wanted to make a nice gesture. It seems like both moves lacked a plan to deal with what would happen if things didn’t go perfectly as planned.

No matter where you go, there you are.

by KC Mariner on May 24, 2010 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Inviting Sweeney to spring training was nothing short of a disaster PR move.

He had no worthwhile spot on the roster, and if they didn’t call him to the team, the unsung hero of last year would have been dropped on his ass. Then he had a huge spring training and suddenly they had even less of an ability to drop him. That was probably the stupidest move they’ve done all year, and a clear example of a team that doesn’t have good foresight. I don’t think it’s chemistry related. I think it’s a combination of a lack of foresight and the inability to deal with the problems they created.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 24, 2010 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd argue the Griffey signing was worse

Because it handcuffed them the entire Winter and Spring. They simply couldn’t afford to be flexible and it turned even worse when Wak decided a reduced role was “wasting” Griffey. The Sweeney move would’ve been okay outside of the context of a Griffey signing, especially considering how thin the M’s were at DH/Veteran presence. His huge Spring training just reinforced that he had some ability left to go along with a solid track record. I’m not a huge Sweeney, but I’m wondering how much more I would’ve liked him if Griffey hadn’t been in the picture.

by MT Olson on May 24, 2010 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

I disagree a bit...

I think they were looking for guys on the free agent market right up until the end. They knew they could probably let Sweeney come into camp and fight for a job, showing that a) he’s healthy enough to play semi-regularly and b) he still had enough talent to carry forward what produced from July forward. Because the market was soooo thin and because guys like Nelson, Everidge, Garko, Carp, etc., didn’t for whatever reason show they could be more productive than Sweeney, they stuck with Sweeney as depth on the bench. It’s not what I would’ve done, but they have their reasons. Let’s also not forget how thin even the freely-available-talent pool was at middle infield positions. This front office was well-aware of Jack Wilson’s hamstring/leg issues, and the fact that they really needed some depth there, too.

While I don’t think this front office is perfect, I also don’t believe they are Bavasi-esque in their love for team chemistry and ineptitude on stats-analaysis. I don’t believe they kept Sweeney entirely for clubhouse chemistry + spring training stats reasons.

Does the World Series trophy come with a plate of bacon?

by PositivePaul on May 24, 2010 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, as I mentioned in the post, I don't think it's chemistry related either.

I do disagree on the spring training stats aspect though. I think inviting him to come to camp in the first place was a huge mistake, and once he had the massive spring training they could not afford the PR to drop him. Hence, major foresight issues.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 24, 2010 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'll say it.

Sweeney belongs on a MLB roster more than Griffey does.

by eponymous_coward on May 24, 2010 7:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly, Griffey is an icon

and we should treat him like one. We should dip him in bronze and place him outside the stadium where he can not do any harm on the field. Give his AB’s against right handed pitching to Michael Saunders and let him get some quality development time this year so he is ready to help going forward.

by Droid Rage on May 24, 2010 8:26 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

I look at it this way.

Chone Figgins hasn’t been replacement level since 2006. Neither has Milton Bradley. Neither has Casey Kotchman. Neither has Jose Lopez.

Oh, and none of them are 40 years old, either.

Griffey has all THREE of those working against him: a huge body of work saying he’s done as an effective player, his age, and being terrible this year. That is why I consider him qualitatively different than all of the players I have mentioned.

by eponymous_coward on May 24, 2010 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

I won't disagree if the FO decides to get rid of him.

But I’m not going to fight for it myself until the rest of the obvious roster problems are fixed. He doesn’t take priority for me, and since he’s not a symbol for me like pdb mentions below, it’s not something I’m going to push for. It’s going to be a bad team with or without Griffey, and if it’s going to be a bad team I’d rather he be on it.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 23, 2010 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fair or not I feel the decision to bring Griffey back led to more bad decsions.

Also when your team leader sucks how can you expect anyone else to be good?

by Sec 108 on May 23, 2010 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, that's a reverse chemistry argument.

I don’t think that Rob Johnson, Chone Figgins, Lopez, Kotchman, RRS, etc. are sucking because of Griffey. For those that want him gone, he’s absolutely a symbol of recent bad decisions, but he’s not the error that I, personally, need fixed first.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 23, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

We could go in circles forever on this.

I respect your position but I think by not shit canning Griffey my 30 year love affair with this team is being tested like never before.

by Sec 108 on May 23, 2010 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ha, yeah.

I didn’t expect to change anyone’s mind or even find anyone to agree with me, but I felt like it was worth presenting a dissenting opinion.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 24, 2010 1:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

See people?

Lookout Landing can handle even non-stats based dissent! What now?!

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 24, 2010 1:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is the nightmare scenario I see...

Griffey heats up from being “OMG terrible” to “still bad and below replacement level, but not terrible” as the weather warms up- say, he posts something like .210/.300/.400 numbers the rest of the year, has a hot couple of weeks with classic Griffey, game-winning moments.

Then November comes around and he says something like “You know, I’d like to shoot for Julio Franco’s record. I’ll keep playing as long as the Mariners and the fans will have me. I still think I have something left.”

At that point, what do you do? Shitcan the franchise icon?

by eponymous_coward on May 24, 2010 8:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

At that point you can take the high road without bringing him back as a player.

Offer him some job as an advisor or special coach. Something that will give casual fans the message that the team still wants Griffey affiliated with the team, but that Griffey probably won’t accept. Some fans might be upset that the team wouldn’t bring him back as a player, but most would probably view it as the team making an effort to stay connected to Griffey while keeping him a part of the team without having him play.

If he accepts, it’s harmless because the guy is simply an advisor or special coach (i.e. bring him in to ST in some capacity) or an advisor. He wouldn’t have any final say on what happens on the field or who makes the roster so I don’t see it as a big deal if that’s what he continued on as. If he refuses, then it’s a case of the team trying to maintain a relationship with Griffey with him being the one to cut ties.

No matter where you go, there you are.

by KC Mariner on May 24, 2010 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

So my question is why couldn't you have done that LAST year?

Griffey hasn’t been appreciably above replacement level since 2005. In fact, Princess Willie’s been more valuable to his teams (in terms of on the field performance) than Griffey since then.

The Royals, I might add, have done something similar with Willie as what we’ve done with Griffey: rewarded poor on the field performance but bunches of “intangibles” with far more playing time than the player deserves. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we have kind of a similar record to them, when we’re making roster decisions in a similar fashion. In both cases, the franchise has made a playing time decision not based on objective performance.

I get the point the OP makes, that for him, what Griffey does on the field is IRRELEVANT to to seeing him in a Mariner uniform at the plate, and really, what can you say to that? This is a case where it’s a fundamental difference in viewpoint (one that’s apparently shared by the Mariner field manager and front office).

by eponymous_coward on May 24, 2010 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

It should have been done last year.

I was a fan of bringing back Griffey in 2009, but I still can’t quite believe that Jack Z made the decision to bring him back so quickly into the off season. He had to know what it would do to the roster and the risk of the ugly scenerio we’re seeing play out right now.

I consider myself a Mariner fan first, and would still go on loving this team if it were to release Griffey today. However, there is a huge segment of fandom who love Griffey and only became Mariner fans because of him. They would not take it so well and I think the front office is all too aware that with the season quickly sliding away all those 1995 and Junior give away nights scheduled the rest of the year will be a PR nightmare if they release him.

We don’t have a long proud history of winning and lots of pennants to look at when we go to Safeco. Because of that, Griffey represents more to this franchise that most other players do to theirs. Is that pretty sad? Yep, but that’s the hand we’ve been dealt.

And yes, the Royals seem to love those intagibles too. I’d actually point to brining in Jason Kendall as a better example of how they view what happens in the clubhouse vs. the field. Luckily I’ve been able to convince most (but sadly not all) of the Royals fans I work with that Willie Ballgame isn’t all that great and despite being better than Tony Pena Jr., Yuni is a horrible SS.

No matter where you go, there you are.

by KC Mariner on May 24, 2010 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, and I see the idea that in-season release on bad terms = PR disaster

Basically, I think you sit him down and say “we’re taking you at your word when you said you wanted to help the team, and you won’t be DHing regularly any more.You’re going to be a PH and 25th guy. (Basically, what Dave Hansen was a couple years back.) If that’s not cool, we will DL you and you get the goodbye tour in September when rosters expand. Or, if you’re not cool with that, we can DFA you and you can see if anyone else wants to pick you up.”

by eponymous_coward on May 24, 2010 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, this is what I think they should do.

Sweeney’s hot streak aside, he has no purpose on the team. Let Griffey take the 25th spot, PH him once in a while, or DL him if he’s genuinely hurt or they’re making a run. I’m not arguing in this post he should be starting DH. He’s pretty terrible.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 24, 2010 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's completly not what his agent said.

Does the World Series trophy come with a plate of bacon?

by PositivePaul on May 24, 2010 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

If we DFA him right now?

I’m assuming he’d be a little mad.

by MT Olson on May 24, 2010 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

The backlash could become the team's problem.

My dad, for example, has been going to games regularly this year and keeps predicting Griffey to break out and slug a bunch of homers at some point. If Griffey was cut, he’d legitimately be angry and probably stop going to games this year, along with write a few letters and gripe with everyone at his office. There’s enough nostalgia fans out there to make this a big deal.

Course it could all just blow over too. I’d still support cutting him, but I can see why the FO is hesitant.

by MT Olson on May 24, 2010 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

He's going to raise hell at being benched for hitting .190?

The point is he would only get DFAed if sitting on the bench or going to the DL wasn’t fine with him. His call- if he doesn’t like how he’s being used going forward, he can ask for a release and see if one of the other 29 teams wants a completely useless DH.

I don’t see how you can blame the Mariners for benching a DH for not hitting.

by eponymous_coward on May 24, 2010 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd bet money he doesn't think he's useless.

Admitting to himself that he’s no longer capable of playing a game that he loves and is the center of his life won’t be simple. Nobody would want to accept that.

by MT Olson on May 25, 2010 12:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

So he doesn't frigging notice he isn't hitting?

What, does he think the fact that he hasn’t been close to the numbers on the back of his baseball card in years is just a really long unlucky streak?

I’m sorry, no baseball player has a right to bitch about not being played when they can’t play defense and they hit like a pitcher. I don;t care how much he saved baseball in Seattle, or whatever. If Griffey WANTS to act like a spoiled brat if/when the Mariners tell him “we don’t think you belong in the everyday lineup”, he can ask for his outright release and see if some other team wants him, but I think he’ll have good enough grace to realize his choices are a) leave gracefully at the end of the year or b) make a big stink and show that despite what he said, this is all about his ego.

by eponymous_coward on May 25, 2010 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

You're right, it's incredibly selfish and irrational of him.

I just can’t fault him for it though. Maybe it’s because I feel I’d do the same or maybe because the human side seems more prevalent than the numbers, I just can’t see him taking this in stride. Human beings are irrational. You can call it ego or whatever you’d like, but the fact is he can’t simply just walk away. Players have spent their whole lives telling themselves they can do this game… wrapping their head around the opposite just seems counterintuitive. There’s a reason sports players try to play long after they should’ve retired; it happens in every sport. There’s too big a human element here.

Dissenting opinions are welcome, and should be encouraged, at Lookout Landing. -LL Style Guide

by MT Olson on May 25, 2010 11:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, so far, he doesn't seem to be complaining.

Look, the dude’s 40 and he’s GOT to know the end’s near. I think he’d like to leave Seattle at the end of his career rather than going to somewhere else mid-season (and that’s ASSUMING another team’s going to pick up a DH hitting below the Mendoza line).

by eponymous_coward on May 28, 2010 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

Aaaaand it looks like Griffey's ego wasn't THAT big.

Good for him. Sad for his fans, but he left it all on the field.

by eponymous_coward on Jun 3, 2010 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

I started following the Mariners in 1989

I just happened to switch over to KIRO while delivering pizzas and heard Dave talking about this exciting new kid who has just coming up…a phenom…a magician in the field and a monster with the bat. I’ve been hooked ever since. In the early ’90’s you could walk up the Dome at game time, buy a ticket for about five bucks in the third deck, first row behind home plate, and watch Ken Griffey Jr., Edgar Martinez, Randy Johnson, Jay Buhner, Alvin Davis…and they might even win half the time at home. You just knew the team was going to be something special before long.

by short on May 23, 2010 12:10 PM PDT reply actions  

I have this image in my head of a rock in a stream, forcing the water to flow around it.

Griffey being the rock. So many roster decisions flowed from the decision to keep Griffey. Then every move after is affected by him being here. For a team with slim margins for victory, that’s a big deal. There’s very little cushion, and what talent we have is stretched too thin to be carrying a player that cannot hit or play a position.

Occasionally there are things I miss from my youth. For years there used to be a mural of Griffey on the side of a high rise downtown when I was a kid, I miss that Griffey.

by Kermit. on May 23, 2010 3:51 PM PDT reply actions   2 recs

What I don't understand is what you get from watching him still.

What goes through your head when he walks up to the plate each day? Do you remenisce or get hopeful or what? I grew up with Griffey too, he was my catalyst for getting interested in baseball as well. But when he steps in the box I don’t think about how much fun he was in the 90s, I try to guess whether he will strike out or ground out weakly between first and second.

When I read these kinds of posts and comments they come across, to me, as people justifying their love of Griffey. No one needs to explain why they love Griffey. Everyone, including the people who are bitter over how he left, understands why someone would love Griffey. But what I’m always left wondering is what it is about a 2010 Griffey at bat that people can still derive some kind of enjoyment from.

by Nate Dogg on May 23, 2010 4:03 PM PDT reply actions  

Since I became a fan of Griffey first and the Mariners second

I feel for Griffey as though he’s a team. When I, personally, watch Griffey play, it’s like rooting for the 2008 Mariners to win. They may be terrible, but I still want them to win. His victories are simply individual at bats rather than ultimate outcomes.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 23, 2010 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I should add that my allegiences have obviously changed over the years.

Now I’m a Mariner fan first. But I don’t know if I can say I’m a Griffey fan “Second.” It’s more like… 1.1. I can root for his dismissal once he is the only problem of the team, but while there are all these others I can’t.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 23, 2010 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I can see that.

I’d disagree because even if Griffey isn’t the biggest problem he’s the easiest one to fix but I can at least understand where you’re coming from.

by Nate Dogg on May 23, 2010 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Griffey's decay

reminds me that one day I will wake up and I won’t be good at what I love anymore. That however successful I am at, for example, playing piano now, there will come a time when my body and my fingers will be too frail to create the music I hear in my head. What I take away from watching arguably the single biggest hero in Seattle sports history disintegrate before my very eyes is a greater understanding of the circle of life. As Griffey ages and loses his ability, the path is paved for new, young stars to replace him. It’s a strange thing.

"I just don't understand these newfangled defensive stats. I mean, what’s a 3? Who decides what that means? It all seems pretty arbitrary to me." ---- acblue

by .Taylor on May 23, 2010 5:07 PM PDT reply actions  

Vying for Jeff's job already ;)?

I have a similar fear. Bowling, pool, and baseball – once I can’t throw a ball, bowl a strike or hit a ball into a hole, I’m going to be extremely unhappy.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 24, 2010 1:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

That's it!

The real reason he’s still on the team is that Z wants us all to realize our own mortality. Watching Griffey’s swing is a reminder that we are all marching inevitably towards the grave. Z is exploring existentialism and absurdism by keeping Jr. at DH. One must imagine Griffyphus happy.

Thank you, Walter Jones.

by thebyron on May 25, 2010 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Just to add a little bit of clarity...

I don’t really care if other people root for his dismissal. He does suck. This was only to provide the reason I’m not/can’t/awesome/won’t.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on May 25, 2010 5:38 PM PDT reply actions  

=(

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Jun 2, 2010 5:06 PM PDT reply actions  

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