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Around SBN: Devils Beat Rangers, Head To Stanley Cup Finals

14-24, Quick Game Notes

I guess some of you might want actual baseball to discuss. Or whatever it is you want to call what the Mariners are playing.

  • The most disheartening thing about Ryan Rowland-Smith is that he isn't making any visible progress. He says he's "lost" as to what's going on, and I am too. I mean, it's obvious what the problems are - mediocre stuff, mediocre command - but it's unclear why he's been so much worse through the early going in 2010 than he was down the stretch in 2009. Maybe that's just it. Maybe he's the kind of guy who needs a lot of time to build himself up. But the lack of improvement just makes it hard to keep the faith. It is worth noting that RRS' fastball is down about a tick, but is that significant? And if it is, is it enough to explain everything that's been going on? I don't think it is. I think what we're seeing is one part bad luck and one part something real that nobody's yet figured out.

    For those of you who want to make a change, I will point out that (A) RRS is out of options, (B) Ian Snell isn't very good, and (C) the best option in Tacoma has been Garrett Olson. Luke French has the shiny ERA, but his underlying performance hasn't been anything special. It'd be one thing if RRS were blocking someone with real upside. As is, one could argue that switching him out wouldn't actually accomplish anything. C'mon, Erik.

  • Want to hear the most amazing stat of the season? Today's Mariner pitchers were RRS, Snell, Jesus Colome, and Sean White. The A's drew zero walks.

  • The big hope was that Milton Bradley's return would force the M's to make a difficult decision with regard to their DH platoon. Now I can't help but feel like they're just going to go the easy way out and put Ryan Langerhans on the DL for his elbow thing. Which, hey, maybe it's legitimate, but it's still a buzzkill. It's a total buzzkill and it hasn't even happened yet. This team is so depressing that they're making me sad from the future.

  • Mike Sweeney was out of the lineup with a back issue (surprise!). Sweeney can't play the field. Anywhere. He can't. And this was another of many instances in which he couldn't DH because of some ache or pain. The Mariners spent their offseason building one of the most versatile rosters I'd ever seen, and then in March they decided to bollocks everything up by adding a guy who is literally the least flexible player in baseball. Mike Sweeney is as versatile as a pincushion.

  • How good was Ichiro's 2004? Ichiro's batted .354 so far in 2010. He's started every game. And he's on pace to fall short of his 2004 hit total by 23.

  • The Mariners are so bad right now that, when Matt Tuiasosopo's fourth inning drive bounced out of Rajai Davis' glove and over the fence for a home run, Gio Gonzalez laughed. You know you're good when other fans hate you. You know you're bad when other fans like you. You know you're getting really low when the opposing pitcher - the pitcher you're facing in a game - gives up a silly home run to you, and smiles. 

  • Every day that Ken Griffey Jr. refuses to go away, he loses some of his fans. And I don't think he's gaining any new ones. At Griffey's peak, we can assume that, I dunno, 99% of the Mariner fan base loved him. Where is that percentage now? Where would that percentage be in 2015 in a hypothetical reality in which Griffey's still hanging on? Basically, how many Mariner fans will love Griffey forever? I'm trying so hard not to write means words, but Griffey is making it tough.

    What's funny is that, the worse we get, the less incentive there is for the team to want Griffey to leave. Oh God.

  • The Mariners, at 14-24, are closer to the division lead than the Red Sox, and equidistant from a playoff position.

Comment 104 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Mike Sweeney Retires

Mar 2011 by Jeff Sullivan - 10 comments

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But then Wak would start Griffey

…is that what we really want, people?

by NWade on May 18, 2010 2:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

No.

However, assuming Sweeney can catch lightining in a bottle and hit around .336 wOBA for the rest of the year – he still isnt that valuable. He can’t even DH for more than 3 games in a row, and he plays no position.

So yes, the answer to that one is no.

by Ballard Erik on May 18, 2010 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

A pincushion is sooooo much more versatile than Sweeney.

You can throw a pincushin, you can set it on someone’s chair as a prank, you can stick pins in it, etc. Mike Sweeney, on the other hand, is just a giant turd. He sits around not doing anything and he stinks.

by Charles Gipson on May 18, 2010 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

All three of Snell's relief appearances have come on each of RR-S' last three starts

And Snell has pitched only one fewer inning (9 for RR-S, 8 for Snell). I’m sure Snell is enjoying his new role as Rowland-Smith mop-up guy. It’s probably tons of fun to enter a game in the 3rd or 4th inning already down by 4 or 5.

by Gihyou on May 18, 2010 12:59 AM PDT reply actions  

One can always hope the Mariners instead decide to find a phantom injury to get RRS off the roster in order to activate Bradley.

Then, Snell could go back to the rotation (given that he worked today, he’s already in line for the start in five days), the roster would regain some of its initial flexibility, all the while without risking losing Colome or RRS to waiver claims.

Of course, logic will be eschewed yet again.

I can't resist clicking "Rec" when I see a post with four [of them] already.

by thehemogoblin on May 18, 2010 1:00 AM PDT reply actions  

Wait there's a risk we'd lose Colome?

Wait someone cares that we’d lose Colome?

What's the deal with corn nuts?

by BaronVonBullshit on May 18, 2010 1:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think the confusion is that...

…you weren’t endorsing Colome – you’re just following Wak’s apparent line of thinking. Right? Right?

by NWade on May 18, 2010 2:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

Pains me to say it

And I’m likely to get flamed, but “at the end of the day”, Griffey is Jack Z’s fault. Sure there was pressure to bring him back, but Z laid out the open invitation to return and Junior took it. He miscalculated that move and it was compounded by Sweeney forcing his way on the roster with Spring pyrite numbers. Z should have shown Griff the photo of him and Ichiro being carried off the field at the end of ‘09 and said, "This is the way to go out. Thanks for everything and don’t be a stranger."

I don’t blame Z for Griffey being old and terrible—that’s Griff’s fault—but I do fault him for giving him the platform on which to do so.

by lemonverbena on May 18, 2010 1:10 AM PDT via mobile reply actions  

The current situation reminds me a bit of the last couple years of Torre with the NYY

where he kept making bone-headed line-ups, shit use of the bullpen, and played his favorites under his own “Belief System”. It took Brian Cashman to just get the marginal players off the roster so he’d stop using them.

I don’t see Z taking the initiative to dump these guys or draw the line with the bizarro bullpen situation- interesting 300 is their favorite movie, since it seems like there are 300 pitchers in the pen- so the blame ultimately has to fall on Z. How many times can he see this crap before he pulls Wak aside and tells him to get his head out of his ass?

by RustyJohn on May 18, 2010 1:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not Zduriencik's fault. Nor Griffey's.

It’s his role. As a 25th man, seldom-used pinch-hitter, Junior would have been completely harmless — even useful in a draw-a-clutch-walk or tickle-an-Ichiro kind of way. I don’t think he even imagined he’d be the opening day DH. But they weren’t able to find that last good bat for LF/DH, so that’s how it worked out. Which sucks.

Not finding that bat, as well as Sweeney’s existence on this roster, makes Griffey a problem. But his existence on this roster did not have to be a problem. It’s his role, and his usage. Find a good bat, Griffey’s existence becomes insignificant.

You can afford to carry an aging franchise icon on a 25-man roster. They just have to sit there, and the other players just have to not suck at hitting.

by Pete_ on May 18, 2010 1:28 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

"Last good bat?"

What the fuck were Langerhans and Byrnes for? Platoon, god dammit! Or hell, even Langerhans and Garko (as abysmal as he would have been in the field). No, no, Wak mismanaged this roster. Z had everything set just fine.

Milton DH’ing with Langerhans/Byrnes/Garko in LF is a vast improvement over what we have now with Sweeney the Useless and Griffey the Figurehead on the bench.

by harkening on May 18, 2010 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

But they weren't "pyrite numbers", right?

I mean, Sweeney started off insanely hot, but if you just focus on the last couple of weeks of ST weren’t his numbers kinda so-so?
  
(Please, don’t say I’m dealing with SSS, because even including all of ST is still a SSS – as the fine folks here have pointed out in the past when evaluating Sweeney’s usefulness)

by NWade on May 18, 2010 2:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

His "hot start" could just have been explained by luck.

The beginning of ST is also when teams have larger rosters, leading to more mediocre pitchers who will end up pitching in the minors being in games. Racking up the stats against those is pretty unimpressive and not really applicable to the regular season.

Rob Johnson was behind 9/11

by I Lick Squirrels on May 18, 2010 2:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

We can blame Wak for the PT, but the blame falls on Z. However, the caveat to that is if the Griffey decision came from above Z. If so, I am sorry for the last statement, Z. Please forgive me and do something awesome.

by Ballard Erik on May 18, 2010 8:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

Love the photo caption. Poor Guti.

Also, holy cow, Ichiro is hitting .354? That guy is the Energizer bunny without the drum.

by ralphie81 on May 18, 2010 1:31 AM PDT reply actions  

I have a suggestion/question about Wak's "seven man bullpen".

It seems pretty clear that the bullpen is one big part of what’s been sucking about this team (10 losses and nearly half of save chances fuckingly blown) among all the other sucky parts.

The starters (except for RRS who has been one of the worst starters in the league) are pretty good. Isn’t it time to go back to a more normal six man bullpen, get rid of the lousiest reliever (whoever) so Wak can’t use him to blow games for us, and at the same time add more flexibility to the bench?

by Sam Regens on May 18, 2010 5:39 AM PDT reply actions  

Wins, losses and saves are a medieval way to evaluate pitchers.

Stop doing it. The bullpen hasn’t been great, but they haven’t been “a big part”. 75% of the problem has been the hitting and 15% has been RR-S.

by Matthew on May 18, 2010 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

In WPA terms, they've been a 'big part.' Still not the majority, but greater than 10%.

They’re true talent isn’t that poor, but it’s undeniable that the bullpen’s bad luck has come in high leverage situations. We all know Brandon League isn’t a shitty pitcher, but he’s had some poorly-timed implosions.

by marc w on May 18, 2010 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

Bad luck isn't fixable by bringing in new relievers.

What’s the point of assigning them that blame when evaluating how best to assemble a team for here on out? There isn’t one.

There’s a reason we don’t use WPA to project players.

by Matthew on May 18, 2010 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

I know, but they've clearly been partially responsible for why the team's record is 14-24, and the orig. comment's suggestion

was eminently reasonable. Go back to a 6 man ’pen, get rid of one of the relievers, add flexibility to the bench.

WPA isn’t helpful to project players, but I hope it could be used to convince Wak that whatever sort of flexibility he’s gained in the bullpen hasn’t translated into wins. He knows this of course, but it’s interesting to see it in percentage terms. If the theory is that giving your good relievers more rest will translate into better performance in high leverage situations, well, that’s not what we’ve seen.

by marc w on May 18, 2010 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

I never attacked the ultimate suggestion.

It’s something I’ve been lobbying for since well, ever.

I attacked the process laid out that resulted in the suggestion which was pretty clearly based in WPA-like thoughts. There’s no defense for that and that’s as far as I’m going in this subthread.

by Matthew on May 18, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

I hate loving the Mariners sometimes.

Even if we lose 100 games again I’m going to watch every game I can for some reason, something is wrong with me. Fuck you, dad.

by OlSalty on May 18, 2010 6:51 AM PDT reply actions   2 recs

Same here!

I wish I could hate this team. I wish I could divorce myself of them.

An intervention wouldn’t even help me at this point. I’m stuck with feeling miserable because I can’t hate this team.

by Azchristopher on May 18, 2010 7:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

The Cinderella seasons they had when I was a kid

have only left me to become a more bitter and cynical adult.

by FairWeatherFred on May 18, 2010 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

There are many, many fans for whom Griffey is no longer a baseball player but an icon

and as such can do no wrong. If Griffey were a bench coach I would be one of these fans. But since he’s still a player, I want nothing more to do with Ken Griffey Jr. He has officially exhausted any good will he built up by playing last year.

I’ve said it many times over the years, and I never thought I’d have to say it again, but I do not want a team full of nice guys who are beloved by the community. I want a team of competent baseball players. I don’t give two shits whether they’re nice or not.

by pdb on May 18, 2010 7:45 AM PDT reply actions   2 recs

I feel the same way.

If he retired today, I think it would help him gain some of that goodwill back. If our manager is so misguided that he thinks he can start and bat 5th, then it is up for the Griffdawg to bow out.

by Ballard Erik on May 18, 2010 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

This 1.5 month suckfest I doubt has caused any M's fan to develop a long term

distaste for Griffey. This month and a half just isn’t relevant enough in the scheme of things to warrant losing your appreciation and love for Griffey.

If you are a real M’s fan, and are going to hold this last 40 games against him long term, I have to question your sanity.

This 2010 M’s team is being sunk by a bunch of individuals, and it wasn’t more than an 82-84 win team to begin with. I just don’t get the folks who say they now hate Griffey or that he’s lost all goodwill.

I could understand if he’s been playing at this poor level for multiple seasons and refused to hang them up. But that isn’t the case. Once again, he’s been terrible for 40 games. Seems silly to downgrade his legacy based on this.

by Rudy4three on May 18, 2010 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't buy this argument

Even with great players, its not their job to decide when their career is over. They are paying him a fat wad of cash and if he is having fun, he probably will keep playing. The team can cut him at any time and force him into retirement. Maybe some fans will be disappointed for a while but its justified because he is fucking horrible.

by Edgar for Pres on May 18, 2010 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, he wasn't any good last year either, but we won 85 games and overachieved

according to most. I don’t think anybody really hated Griffey last year or lost their appreciation for him.

I think the real disgust has come this season when he clearly shot and the team isn’t any good.

I just don’t think 40 games of terrible baseball really warrants M’s fans turning on the guy long term, and not remembering all the good things he did in an M’s uniform

by Rudy4three on May 18, 2010 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's not so much that he's terrible

It’s that he’s literally the worst ballplayer I have ever seen hold an everyday job. He has no major league skills what so ever.

by Poochie on May 18, 2010 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

His legacy is that of being a prick.

Only an insane person would take one season, 2009, where he was apparently the nice guy in the clubhouse and think he has always been a quality human being.

by Sec 108 on May 18, 2010 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

He kept a notebook, updated daily, of slights that the media perpetrated on him

and would only talk to certain people because of the contents of that notebook. Even for an athlete, he was notoriously thin-skinned.

by pdb on May 18, 2010 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

I have no idea how old you are so you may just not remember,

but we had a divided clubhouse the minute he arrived in town. On one hand it was hard to judge him because his talent was so far beyond anyone we ever had here, but on the other hand if you didn’t fit into his little clique he would run players out of town.

by Sec 108 on May 18, 2010 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

RRS has given up 25% of this team's runs and on pitched 11% of the innings

If it was possible to remove him from the staff and replace his innings with the rest of the staff we would have allowed 131 runs instead of 152. We have scored 125 runs so that would put us near .500 instead of far below by pythag. This sort of thinking is a little unrealistic because any team would do a lot better by ignoring the production they are getting from their worst SP.

by Edgar for Pres on May 18, 2010 9:20 AM PDT reply actions  

I don't like Griffey anymore.

Never really loved the guy (always more of an Edgar guy), but now I really, really can’t stand him. Makes me want to vomit when I see him waddle up to the plate.

by tait644 on May 18, 2010 9:31 AM PDT reply actions  

I don't think Griffey is losing many fans, he is only losing people who think he is currently good and should be on the team.

I still love Griffey. I love him for what he was and not for what he is. He could go hitless for his next 50 at bats and it wouldn’t change how I feel about him. He was a million little boys favorite baseball player when I was growing up. I don’t think he should be on the team but he is always going to be one of my favorite players. Its disappointing that the team has decided to keep him around into his old age but if the team wants to keep paying him, he is going to stay around. Its not his responsibility to quit. But anyway, I still think most of us fans who watched the team in the 90’s would agree if we built our own “Field of Dreams” we’d want Griffey out there.

by Edgar for Pres on May 18, 2010 9:31 AM PDT reply actions  

I live in the present and nostalgia irritates the crap out of me so I want Griffey gone

In five years, after he’s retired, I will forget about 2009 and 2010 and remember how much fun he was to watch play. Right now, though, he’s getting in the way of my favorite team’s progress and success and for that I regard him as I would Player A.

by pdb on May 18, 2010 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

I want him gone. I have wanted him gone. He has no reason to be on this team.

I am rational about the current. Griffey is done and won’t help this team win. The team should cut him right now. I think I’ve just walled off my good memories of him from his current performance. I almost view him as a completely separate person now which might be in order to protect the memories I had of him.

by Edgar for Pres on May 18, 2010 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Seems like RRS to the pen and Snell to Tacoma are the obvious moves

Hyphen stays with the club and gives us a lefty out of the pen. Snell gives us depth in Tacoma and works on his command as a starter (no one is going to claim him with his salary and if they do hey, alright). Whoever is throwing well in Tacoma can come up and try to make it work up here.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on May 18, 2010 10:55 AM PDT reply actions  

Yes. I think his salary implies that there is minimal risk of losing him altogether

And Rowland-Smith might be a sight better out of the pen.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on May 18, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

If they could float Snell through waivers, I'd like to see him in a position to work on his pitching.

Working out of the bullpen would seem to retard his ability to do that. I am also not entirely familiar with the work schedule and pitching regimen of the bullpen staff so my opinion could likely be worthless.

by Kermit. on May 18, 2010 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah the idea is to have him start in Tacoma

and bring up Olson or French. Tacoma has too many lefties anyhow. Olson and French aren’t anything special, but they only have to skate by for a month.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on May 18, 2010 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Who knows

maybe Ian will like it down in Tacoma and refuse to be called back up.

by cmccrack206 on May 18, 2010 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Seems like Colome should be the one to be waived to Tacoma

As he’s 32 and hasn’t figured out how to pitch yet.

With White getting waived.

by CMC_Stags on May 18, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd rather Snell be starting in Tacoma

Colome can stay or go, I don’t care. White too. A month from now, if the M’s pitching staff is Felix, Lee, Bedard, Vargas, Fister; Aardsma, League, Kelley, Lowe, RRS, White/Colome/Player X then I’ll be a happy camper.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on May 18, 2010 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

RRS makes the spot starts

if it’s a DL trip someone with options comes up form Tacoma to fill in the bull pen spot. We’re pretty deep on 5th starters.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on May 18, 2010 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

taking pitches

The small ball theory is a good one given the players they have, but it also leaves them much more prone to letting the good hitable pitches go awry. It not only kills power, but it allows pichers to have more options in their favor when they need an out. I mean you can give in to the batter when you know his bat is less of a factor for him getting on base or over the wall. (he may not even swing)…..so you don’t have to worry so much about being behind in the count. Also the defense can play the pitcher equally along with the batter thus have more opportunity to get him out.
  The execution on offense is horrendous on this team, especially when playing small ball is your only option. You have to be fundamentally sound in base running, bunting, bat timing, and clutch hitting, for this style to be effective. It looks like Seattle has put the cart before the horse this season. The only thing that may be positive towards success of small ball may be the pitching staff.
  One other comment. The most important aspect of hitting, is picking up the ball (seeing the pitch early in the delivery). Without that you cannot control your timing, let alone get your bat on the ball. This is usually the issue when batters get into slumps but most good hitters can usually fix this…..It is really looking more and more that offensively we just don’t have the players that are going to get it done…I actually thought it might work, if we could execute, but it’s been a failure so far because we can’t score runs. I’m sorry to say, that without some power, this team is doomed.
  I guess I’m not saying much of anything new to the people in here, so I apologize for chiming in on old news that has probably already been discussed. I watch the team daily, and have played some organized ball. (not an expert, just like baseball)

by WyEast on May 18, 2010 11:49 AM PDT reply actions  

I read this several time

Trying to figure out the point. The description of pitcher thought processes is fascinating. It makes me think the stream of consciousness on the mound must be one of the strangest things anyone could tap into.

by Torjazz on May 18, 2010 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

I started to read you post but couldn't

if I could offer some unsolicited advice though – writing for the internet is very different from any other form. The computer screen is a difficult medium to read off of and long paragraphs with few breaks and complex sentence structure tend to run together. If you want your posts to be read and understood, try to organize your thoughts into fairly short, discrete paragraphs. Think Steve Kelley but without the glue-sniffing.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on May 18, 2010 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Is it just me or does RRS always pitch better later in the year?

I don’t know if this has been mentioned before, but I just looked at his splits over at Fangraphs and here are his month ERA’s.(Couldn’t find monthly FIP’s)
March/April 4.65
May 6.33
June 3.57
July 4.31
August 3.61
September/ October 3.81

Is this meaningful or just a case of small sample size?

by Mariners121212 on May 18, 2010 2:58 PM PDT reply actions  

March, April and May are going to be tainted from his sucky season this year

And its only a couple of years of data so I wouldn’t put too much into those numbers.

by Edgar for Pres on May 18, 2010 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

He seems like a bit of a headcase where he cant deal with the pressure of trying to win

a job like in 2009 ST, or this year when he was expected to step up and be the #3 man in a rotation.

Its almost as if he pitches better when he becomes irrelevant for awhile and then just comes back up to the majors and quietly works his way back into the rotation

by Rudy4three on May 18, 2010 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

.
Every day that Ken Griffey Jr. refuses to go away, he loses some of his fans. And I don’t think he’s gaining any new ones. At Griffey’s peak, we can assume that, I dunno, 99% of the Mariner fan base loved him. Where is that percentage now? Where would that percentage be in 2015 in a hypothetical reality in which Griffey’s still hanging on? Basically, how many Mariner fans will love Griffey forever? I’m trying so hard not to write means words, but Griffey is making it tough.

It’s time. Regress to the mean.

by John Edwards on May 18, 2010 4:23 PM PDT reply actions  

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