The Zack Greinke Trade And A Bad Player Poll
So, as you've presumably heard by now, the Royals have shipped Zack Greinke to Milwaukee. He was originally on his way to Washington, or almost on his way to Washington, but he invoked his no-trade rights to block that deal before waiving them to go to the Brewers. It's a trade that's notable for a number of reasons:
(1) Greinke's the first big-time player I can think of who wanted to go to Milwaukee.
(2) Greinke's the first big-time player I can think of who wanted to go to Milwaukee because he thinks they can win.
(3) The Brewers, of all teams, are now a serious World Series contender. They were a somewhat serious World Series contender back in 2008 when they had Ben Sheets and CC Sabathia, but this is a team that hasn't won its division since 1982. This may be the first time in 29 years that the Brewers come into a season with high expectations.
(4) With Greinke dealt to a competitive team, we can finally quit with all the amateur psychology discussions of social anxiety disorder for at least the next several months, as if anyone knows fuck all about how Zack Greinke feels.
(5) Is this the biggest baseball story ever broken by a blogger?
(6) It's a somewhat interesting gamble by the Brewers; while Greinke was quite good in 2010, his contact rate jumped from 78% to 83% - the highest it's been since 2005 - and they'll be hoping that it was caused at least in part by a lack of interest in pitching for another lousy team. That's one of those things where we have nothing to say on the subject.
There are a bunch of angles here, and I haven't even touched on the young players going the other way - one of whom is a 23 year old power reliever who's already tested positive three times for weed. A lot of people don't like that the Royals are coming away without adding any sure things, settling instead for parts that fill needs, and that may well be a valid argument. I think there's a powerful tendency for people to assume that Dayton Moore screwed up, and that introduces a bias into the conversation, but maybe he did. I don't know the Brewers' system very well. Even though Moore didn't have as much flexibility as he would've liked, maybe the return is too light.
But I don't really want to discuss the return package very much, and whether the deal is fair. Nor do I want to discuss Zack Greinke, who's one of the game's last great unknowns. Greinke's being shipped to Milwaukee along with two million dollars and Yuniesky Betancourt. I want to talk about that.
We're all very familiar with Yuniesky Betancourt. Betancourt was supposed to be a franchise cornerstone until it dawned on us that he couldn't really hit and he couldn't really field. On top of that, he's gotten worse. Yuni's been in the Majors since 2005. Over his first three years, he had an OPS+ of 88, and a UZR of -4. Over his last three years, he's had an OPS+ of 80, and a UZR of -38.
If you prefer, we can look to WAR, if only for the sake of simplicity. Over Yuni's first three years, he had a WAR of 3.3. Over Yuni's last three years, he's had a WAR of -0.7.
As a skinny 23 year old in 2005, Yuni was interesting. Yuni was electrifying. Yuni was a lot of fun to watch. He's gotten less fun to watch by the day, and he's blossomed into one of the worst everyday regulars in baseball. If you believe that his defense really is as bad as the numbers, then for three straight years, now, he's practically been worthless.
And now he's the starting shortstop for a World Series contender. Over the course of his career, Yuni's teams have won this many games:
2005: 69
2006: 78
2007: 88
2008: 61
2009: 85, 65 (traded midseason)
2010: 67
The 88-win team was a fluke that wasn't as good as its record, and while the 85-win team was better, it still wasn't good, and besides, that team traded him in July. For all intents and purposes, 2011 should be Yuni's first turn on a team good enough to win a championship.*
* people might've said the same about the 2008 Mariners, but something obviously went way wrong, and the Brewers probably won't have the same kind of nightmare.
And Yuni's getting his first turn on a team good enough to win a championship as a guy who's been one of baseball's least valuable players for the last three years. So, to cut a long story short, I wonder: is Yuniesky Betancourt the worst regular player on a team that's supposed to contend in 2011?
This is a hard question to ask right now - both because choosing who is and isn't supposed to contend is kind of subjective, and also because the offseason isn't done yet. There are obviously still moves being made that could change some teams around. But I looked at some depth charts and narrowed down what I think is a pretty strong pool of five candidates, and now I'm going to leave it up to you to decide. If voting "other", post the name in the comments, because depth charts are tricky to navigate right now and I easily could've missed a few guys.
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Let's just say...
Yuni has a -0.5 WAR season, Grienke pitches well and has a 6 WAR season.
Let’s also say that free agent O. Cabrera could give you a 2.5 WAR season, so Yuni represents a WAR difference of -3 WAR. Lets also say there is another pitcher out there that the Brewers could have signed (Francis?) who could have a 3 WAR season for them. That is a gain of +3 WAR.
So Yuni represents -3 WAR and Greinke represents +3 WAR and it is a wash.
Is that a plausable scenario? Or am I way off?
I think you're off because there is additional price included in signing O. Cabrera and Francis.
Either way, those are super optimistic projections for an aging shortstop and an injury-prone pitcher.
M's fan in PA, soon to be LA
by perfectstrat on Dec 19, 2010 5:21 PM PST up reply actions
You have to decouple the two players
Because Greinke’s worth 6 WAR regardless of how miserably bad Yuni is. Just because you’ve added Greinke doesn’t mean you’re stuck with Yuni’s -0.5 (or -2), and it doesn’t preclude you from still pursuing a serviceable SS if there’s one to be had.
That said, there’s also something to be said for consolidating that 6 WAR in one player, vs. two guys worth 3. Especially if you start thinking playoffs and a 3-4 man rotation.
Rooting for lovable losers since 1984.
by seattlecougar on Dec 19, 2010 8:12 PM PST up reply actions
As much as it hurt me to do it, I had to vote against Yuni.
Jeff Mathis is a pathetic player. His numbers are worse than Rob Johnson. His career wRC+ is 53 vs 61 for Johnson. Defensive metrics for catchers may not yet be reliable, but even those come out in favor of Rob. Like Yuni he has negative WAR. I had to place my vote for Mathis.
by Droid Rage on Dec 19, 2010 5:43 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
Am I missing something?
Isn’t Mathis the backup in LAnaheim? He’s been pretty bad/unremarkable, but he hasn’t ever logged 100 games in a season, and won’t Napoli resume the starting C role upon Morales’ return?
Rooting for lovable losers since 1984.
by seattlecougar on Dec 19, 2010 8:05 PM PST up reply actions
I think everyone online gets a bit too influenced by the rumblings
of how Mike Scioscia dislikes Napoli’s play behind the plate, and we keep expecting him to either get Napoli traded or make him a backup catcher and half-time DH.
I think at the end of the day, most of us understand that Napoli will continue to start as long as his bat plays the way it has for the last few years. But for some reason, Scioscia has a big, public crush on Mathis’ catching and game-calling.
Even I voted for Mathis
W6G -- Unless there's a good trade on the table.
by RexTookMyStash on Dec 20, 2010 12:53 PM PST up reply actions
I didn't realize Nate McLouth was so bad last season.
All the same, I voted Yuni.
He was gawdawful
But I couldn’t have voted for someone with two, 3+ WAR seasons so recently.
Rooting for lovable losers since 1984.
by seattlecougar on Dec 19, 2010 8:08 PM PST up reply actions
Yuni is so terrible...
Not usually a poster on here, but I had to ask…
There’s better guys out there you could get for league minimum. Off the top of my head, Wilson Valdez filled in for Jimmy Rollins last year when he was injured and put up almost 1 WAR. He wasn’t any great shakes, but he played a passable SS. You could probably pay him the league minimum or close.
Heck, Counsell would probably do a better job. Any number of other players would be equally as good as Yuni or better and you’d have to pay them a lot less money.
All that being said, why on earth even have Yuni on your team? You get worse performance for more money.
I dunno, people here seemed to be pretty upset that Bradley lost the DH job to Cust
So maybe it’s not that uncommon of a sensation.
What's the deal with corn nuts?
by BaronVonBullshit on Dec 19, 2010 7:24 PM PST up reply actions
I'm going to be really sad if Yuni gets to the World Series before Ichiro and Felix.
What's the deal with corn nuts?
by BaronVonBullshit on Dec 19, 2010 7:22 PM PST reply actions
Wasn't it Jeff who recently posted a list of 2005 Mariners who have since made the World Series?
And if I recall correctly, that list basically represented the dregs of that particular Mariners squadron.
Juan Pierre was 2.2 WAR last year
I’m not sure he even belongs on the list. He was better than 90% of the entire Mariners roster. Well, yeah, that’s not really a vote of confidence…
Depends how much you buy his sudden UZR leap last year
But yeah, Pierre’s a reach – both for Pierre, and for the White Sox contending.
by Jeff Sullivan on Dec 19, 2010 10:10 PM PST up reply actions
the white sox will contend
pierre won’t be the worst part of it. that award will either go to the rookie brent morel or even carlos quentin, who has put up -.4 WAR over the last 2 seasons.
"Sportsmanship is just loser talk for losing."
by boyonthedock on Dec 20, 2010 11:53 AM PST up reply actions
The defense was pretty legitimate, he was quite the surprise out there.
I was under the impression he had to be god awful going into the season, just from reading what others have said, but seeing him on a daily basis he was pretty solid. Q, Morel or even AJ Pierzynski are all probably better candidates for this list.
by Grinder in Training on Dec 20, 2010 12:40 PM PST up reply actions
The Brewers might actually have another player who would qualify for this poll.
Carlos Gomez might be the starting center fielder with Cain gone.
As far as the players sent to Kansas City go
I wonder how they compare to some of our minor leaguers. Just seems like they didn’t give up much for him, but then again I don’t know shit about Milwaukee’s AAA players.
I think it really hinges on what you think of Alcides Escobar
Scouts looooove him, but then, they loved Yuniesky even more.
Well, given everything that's happened since....
I saw him in 2005 and he sure looked amazing. But UZR never saw him as a plus guy. Has he put on weight and lost range? Yes, absolutely, but he was never much of a hitter, so with Escobar and Betancourt, you’re trusting people’s opinion that they’re mind-blowingly great fielders.
At least in Yuni’s case, I wonder if he just fooled a lot of people (myself included). Or maybe a better way of saying that is – I don’t know what percentage of guys whom scouts label as gold glove defenders actually turn out to be above average. My guess is that it’s lower than for other skills. Doesn’t mean the reports aren’t valuable of course, just increases the risk.
I put my dog Skip as the worst simply because he has a shitty name that reminds of a shitty movie
"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." ~ Dinobot
Jeff Mathis would have to be a pretty special defensive catcher to not top that list.
Ignoring that he doesn’t play every day, holy fuck is he worthless and the king of these idiots.
Are we just talking about ability as an everyday player, or are we talking about overall worth, as in including contracts?
RIP Dave Neihaus.
The Brewers now have Yuni, Gomez, and have signed Nieves to duke it out for the backup catcher job
this offense will leave a lot to be desired.
i'm fighting all the french people i can find. happy cinco de mayo!
"Miguel Olivo punches Zack Greinke in the chest "
Ow. Stop it.
[bap]
Ow. Stop it.
[bap]
Ow. Stop it.
[bap]
Ow. Stop it.
I voted 'other', although it's tough to choose just one player
Betancourt is a damn high bar, but I keep thinking that one of Alexi Casilla, Michael Cuddyer, and Jonny Gomes might ‘beat’ him. We’ll also have to see how teams fill the C position – if Mathis starts, if someone picks up Gerald Laird, etc.
I voted other too
in favor of Jonny Gomes as a starting left fielder, and Todd Helton, because he is the same kind of anchor that Ken Griffey Jr. was for us, but the only way he won’t start 140+ games for the Rockies at first is if he gets injured again, where we were at least able to platoon Griffey.
Yuni ends up on Z's old team.
The cycle is complete….I voted for Yuni. He is awful.
2010 Safeco Field Record: 2-1 ; Overall Safeco Field Record: 12-5
The Nationals pretending they are contenders is so cute
by seattlebruin on Dec 20, 2010 1:09 PM PST up reply actions
Hey if they get Greinke and Werth in one offseason they might just have been
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 20, 2010 1:22 PM PST up reply actions
I could buy them as a third place team in the East with Grienke.
by Kenneth Arthur on Dec 20, 2010 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
If they caught a few breaks they could have contended, but they probably hoping to take a shot with Grienke/Strasburg in 2011.
I thought Strasburg was out until 2012
Doesn’t Tommy John surgery usually mean missing an entire season?
Yuni's favorite food
When Yuni started with the Mariners as a rookie, his favorite food was (according to the Jumbotron trivia tidbits during his at-bats) “spaghetti with ketchup”. His last season with the Mariners, it was “filet mignon from The Met”. And we wonder why he gained weight and became lazy.
by John McCallum on Dec 20, 2010 1:12 PM PST reply actions 5 recs
Yuni's third on that list, imho
Mathis is eye-tearingly awful, and then there’s Skip Schumaker — a worse hitter than Yuni in the weaker league, and by UZR a bigger negative at an easier position, plus his hitting has declined three straight seasons.
by The Ancient Mariner on Dec 20, 2010 8:33 PM PST reply actions

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