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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Adam Moore, Backup

There have been a lot of criticisms of the Mariners' signing of Miguel Olivo. Many of them have to do with Olivo himself, and what he brings to the table, and those are perfectly reasonable. There is valid reason to worry that Olivo's going to come in and post a .250 OBP, contributing a whole slew of outs from the bottom of the lineup.

But one of the criticisms has been that bringing in Olivo effectively closes the door on Adam Moore. That signing the veteran means the organization isn't going to give Moore a chance to develop into a starter, which seems like a bad move for a team in the Mariners' position. And this is one that I'm not buying.

The Mariners came into the offseason targeting a veteran catcher. A lot of people were hoping for Gregg Zaun, because Zaun could serve as Moore's partner or backup, which would put Moore in line to start 80-100 games. Now that Olivo's in town, Moore's in line to start more like 50-60 games, because Olivo signed as the starter. So what we're talking about - in round number form - is a difference of about 20-50 starts. Considering that game action actually makes up just a fraction of a guy's experience, this doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

There's a prevailing assumption out there that young players need to play, and that they need to play as often as possible in order to develop. The more starts, the better, and you can see this when, say, Michael Saunders sits a game out. People don't like it when Michael Saunders sits a game out. But where's the proof? Where's the proof that playing as often as possible is better for a young player's future? Obviously, a guy needs to get his reps, but there's something to be said for easing a player in.

Fans are all about giving young players an opportunity to "sink or swim". That's okay if you're talking about an elite-level talent like a Stephen Strasburg or an Albert Pujols or a Buster Posey. Those are young guys who have proven themselves to be the cream of the crop and capable of adjusting and learning in a hurry. But for a lesser talent - not a bad talent, but a lesser one - I think it's easy to see how that could be overwhelming. Especially for a player like Moore.

Moore's a catcher. We've known for a while that catchers tend to develop the slowest of all player types, and this is presumably because there is so much more that goes into their game. And look at Moore a year ago. He batted .195. He didn't walk and he struck out all the time. He struggled to throw runners out. He allowed a ton of passed balls and wild pitches. Adam Moore got into 60 games last season and had a hard time with pretty much everything.

And fans wanted to give him a chance to sink or swim in 2011. I'm all about playing Moore, but I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that dumping too much on Moore too quickly could actually be bad for his development. Moore has to improve his game across the board. He has to adjust to playing against the highest level of competition in the world. And people want to see him do that while starting. It could work, but there's a serious gamble with his confidence. There's a good chance that could be too much for Moore at once, and he'd end up getting down on himself. And a baseball player without self-confidence is a baseball player without a bright future.

Run Moore out there 100 times and there's a chance that all it does is make him feel like shit. Not only could he bat .200 again, but he could struggle to apply what he's learning in practice to game situations. When you change a pitcher's throwing mechanics, you have to take things slowly because you have to overwrite his muscle memory. Throw a guy with freshly new mechanics right into a starting job and he'll revert back to what he used to do. Moore could and should have an easier time learning and applying in a smaller role with less pressure.

A lot of people out there think that blocking Moore with Olivo is bad for his development, but I think there's a strong argument to the contrary. This way, Moore gets to take things at a slower pace. He isn't so much in the spotlight. Additionally, there are other factors that I can't speak to, but that have come up in other places. Olivo could "push" Moore. Olivo could serve as Moore's mentor. I don't know how much value there is getting a push, and I don't know how much Moore could pick up from watching Olivo go to work, but enough people talk about these things that they probably can't be written off entirely.

It's possible that the Mariners have, indeed, given up on Moore. I don't know. I'm not in the front office. They could trade him next week. But I don't interpret this move in that way. I think the Mariners know that Moore is talented, and they know that they can't ask him to start. Not immediately. So they brought in a veteran to help out, take some of the pressure off, and maybe teach Moore a thing or two. It's not a bad idea.

As long as he sticks, Moore will still get a chance to develop, even in a backup role. Not only will he play at least a couple times a week - he'll also be in practice every day, learning from Major League coaches and Major League teammates. And if he gets better, then I'm sure the Mariners would love nothing more than to see him start challenging Olivo for playing time. Sure, they signed Olivo for two years, but he isn't a guy that's impossible to trade or impossible to bump. If Moore shows that he's ready, then - and only then - will he get his chance.

Catching is hard. Moore needs time. Olivo will help to provide it.

Comment 29 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Bingo--you've nailed it.

Olivo is not blocking Moore. I think Moore will get as much as he can handle—and Olivo is the object that prevents Moore from getting too much.

by diderot on Dec 10, 2010 11:16 AM PST reply actions  

A big advantage of Olivo

(as far as Moore’s development goes) is that he’s not awesome. If Moore takes a big step forward, nobody will say we need to “find at-bats” for Olivo or that we shouldn’t move him to make Moore the primary starter.

by short on Dec 10, 2010 11:43 AM PST reply actions  

I'm using this at work

As a response to my next performance review: “The big advantage of keeping me around is that I’m not very good at what I do and not all that ambitious, so I’m no threat to anyone around here.”

by Suburban Shocker on Dec 10, 2010 3:17 PM PST up reply actions   3 recs

I like the deal more now (dislike it less?) as time passes.

He should be able to get us the 1 WAR per year needed to make this a good deal. Having him this year is decent, as our options at catcher sucked. The second year is a little distasteful because he might block us from having some better alternative but even if that happens, 3.5 million for a decent backup catcher isnt that bad.

by ARock on Dec 10, 2010 11:43 AM PST reply actions  

Thanks for writing this.

A lot of fans are angry about the move, and I think it’s a pretty reasonable one. Fact is, Moore put up the 2nd worse wOBA in baseball with a minimum 200 PAs last season. He actively hurt our chances of winning. Now I’m all for player development, but I would like to win a few games too. This is kind of a good middle ground, where we get an extra win or two out of Olivo, and ease Moore into playing and developing at the same time.

Fact is, Moore could be a bust, and it’s nice to have a catcher that’s a known quantity in Miguel Olivo to fall back on in case that happens.

by seiferguy on Dec 10, 2010 12:03 PM PST reply actions  

I think Dave was refering to how Olivo can't hit and strikes out.

I though this post was more about having another vetren catcher is a good idea and had little to do Olivo as being the best choice.

Eat shit bum!

by LeftArrow2 on Dec 10, 2010 1:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Nevermind.

I just read what Dave posted yesterday.

Eat shit bum!

by LeftArrow2 on Dec 10, 2010 1:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Okay, you've almost got me sold on this idea...

"Simply put, Dave Niehaus was why Marconi invented radio."

by Thingray on Dec 10, 2010 12:07 PM PST reply actions  

“And look at Moore a year ago. He batted .195. He didn’t walk and he struck out all the time. He struggled to throw runners out. He allowed a ton of passed balls and wild pitches. Adam Moore got into 60 games last season and had a hard time with pretty much everything.”

Wow ! That’s something more than just a lesser talent

by paracorto on Dec 10, 2010 1:08 PM PST reply actions  

Welcome.

Remember to always use a subject line in your posts!

by ThundaPC on Dec 10, 2010 1:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Tiring expectations

And from what I read today on USSM perhaps Jack is a little bit tired to wait for that production

by paracorto on Dec 10, 2010 1:56 PM PST reply actions  

I know people have been banging on the 2 year deal

But last year we saw pudge and Kendall get 2 year deals. This year year the FA market went nuts and yet, GMZ did not have to over pay.

Also, while people are groaning about not getting Zaun, one should remember he is 39. A 39 year old is much more likely to get hurt than a 30 year old. How many days did a catcher spend on the DL last year? I know it was a lot. This move could be as much about having a decent, durable 2nd catcher than having a starter.

by Thurston24 on Dec 10, 2010 2:02 PM PST via mobile reply actions  

This deal should not be viewed as Olivo replacing Moore

Rather, we should see it as Olivo replacing Rob Johnson. Catchers don’t play every day so the difference between starter and backup is not nearly as great as the difference between backup and third-string, AAA catcher.

by short on Dec 10, 2010 2:06 PM PST reply actions  

Everything you said seems pretty reasonable

But I think it goes deeper than that for the Mariners. They’ve seen Adam Moore play for several years now, and we’ve been able to follow his progress through the minors. At this point, there probably isn’t much reason to think that he’s going to be a full-time, plus guy at catcher. I would be surprised if the Mariners ever really thought that he could be the “catcher of the future” for them, and I think this move is right in line with that thinking. He’s looks more like a competent backup, one that is cheap and can do a reasonable job in that role.

That doesn’t rule out the chance that he can do better than that, and having Miguel Olivo around won’t keep that from happening if that’s Adam Moore’s fate. But they desperately need help at the catcher spot, and relying on Moore to provide that for them probably isn’t the smart move. They needed to find a guy that could be their starter, one that has shown himself to be a capable player in the big leagues.

I suppose this all sounds like a defense of the Mariners’ decision, but that’s really not it. I’m a bit ambivalent about the Olivo signing, but I absolutely agree with the idea that they needed to find a full-time starting catcher.

by nathaniel dawson on Dec 10, 2010 2:22 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Don't fall in love with your prospects

The biggest problem we have when we get all excited about prospects is to give them credit for being better prospects than they really are. Don’t forget all the excitement of “Doyle,” and the outcry for trading him. Never made if for the Ms or anybody else. The probability of a garden variety prospect making it is really small. Sure, some hit, and its the job of the FO and field staff to sort it out. Remember, there were people who were “Bold Phrase”CONVINCED “Bold Phrase” that Rob Johnson was going to be a great catcher… some guys just don’t make it.

by New England Fan on Dec 11, 2010 6:30 AM PST reply actions  

This team reminds me more and more of the Giants

And most of this thread reminds me of what was said last year when Molina was signed to a $6M/1 year(!) last year. I’d like to think Olivo is more tradeable than Molina, since I don’t think he gets hit in the mask with fastballs on a regular basis and his contract is not as silly.

Of course this also means Adam Moore will be AL Rookie of the Year and the Mariners will win the WS.

May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.

"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased

"Oh no, he wanted me to do that. It was intentional." - Tim Lincecum

by natteringnabob on Dec 11, 2010 7:24 AM PST reply actions  

I don't know.

1: The future is mostly unwritten for Adam Moore, but one thing no one will ever, ever, ever write about him is, “Adam Moore is basically a Buster Posey clone.”

2: A 1 year deal for more money may not be worse. I’d understand it a little bit more. $6m for Molina is cringe-inducing, I know, but… what if the Giants signed Eliezer Alfonzo to a 2-year, $5m deal? Alfonzo is essentially the poor man’s Olivo.

by marc w on Dec 11, 2010 1:13 PM PST up reply actions  

That's actually what I wish would have happened last year

At the time I thought it made Molina untradeable, but I didn’t realize that the Rangers would actually find him to be an upgrade. Which he somehow was. I think a team (perhaps the Rangers again?) desperate enough to want Olivo in a trade wouldn’t have any better plan for 2012. And actually it’s funny you mention Eliezer; I wouldn’t care to have him back but he is one of a couple guys that would have saved the Giants a lot of money. Torrealba would have been a better and much cheaper choice than Molina at C when he arrived as an FA.

Had the Giants just signed Barajas or Zaun or someone to a 2-year deal for the same money last year, they wouldn’t need a backup this year (I’m sure they’ll use Whiteside but I’m also sure Posey will be overplayed because of that). So if Moore is indeed ready to go, having Olivo signed again as the backup for next year isn’t the end of the world so long as Moore gets all the playing time he needs in 2011.

May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.

"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased

"Oh no, he wanted me to do that. It was intentional." - Tim Lincecum

by natteringnabob on Dec 13, 2010 7:31 AM PST up reply actions  

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