San Francisco Giants: Bearers Of Hope
"The problem's upstairs. The Mariners will never win with Bill Bavasi."
"The problem's upstairs. The Mariners will never win with Jack Zduriencik."
"The problem's upstairs. The Mariners will never win with Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong."
So often we've heard those things. Maybe not the second one very much, but definitely the first, and definitely the last. So many people seem to believe with all their hearts that the Seattle Mariners stand no chance of winning a World Series for as long as they keep their current CEO and COO. Those two people don't understand how to build a championship team, they say, and until they disappear, the M's are doomed to an existence of wasteful inadequacy.
The Giants won with Brian Sabean. Your argument is invalid.
It's not that Brian Sabean's a complete idiot. A complete idiot might be able to manage a championship team, but he won't be able to build one. But Brian Sabean is very clearly flawed. Brian Sabean has very clearly screwed up. And here we are, with Brian Sabean holding more World Series trophies as a general manager than Jack Zduriencik or Billy Beane or Paul DePodesta or Mark Shapiro have ever held.
Brian Sabean, who gave $126m to Barry Zito.
Brian Sabean, who gave $60m to Aaron Rowand.
Brian Sabean, who gave $18.5m to Edgar Renteria, and $18m to Dave Roberts, and $26m to Edgardo Alfonzo, and anything to Neifi Perez, and $23.25m to Randy Winn, and $27m to Matt Morris.
Brian Sabean, who traded top prospects for Sidney Ponson, and Francisco Liriano and Joe Nathan and Boof Bonser for AJ Pierzynski, and Jerome Williams and David Aardsma for LaTroy Hawkins.
Brian Sabean, who rode Barry Bonds to respectability, and who became the butt of snarky jokes once Bonds faded away. Brian Sabean, who would seemingly stop at nothing to build a team full of baseball players as old as he was.
Brian Sabean - that Brian Sabean - is a championship-winning general manager. It was Brian Sabean who hit all the right notes and played by far the biggest part in constructing the roster that just took down the Braves in four games, the Phillies in six, and the Rangers in five. It's Brian Sabean who gets to fly home and think "fuck the critics, I'm awesome" while chuckling to himself the whole time, and while many of the critics were right when they spoke and made compelling, factual arguments, it doesn't matter, not now, because Brian Sabean won a World Series by doing things the Brian Sabean way. He's earned the right to chuckle.
So often, when we talk about the moves a front office does and doesn't make, we talk about them like they're absolutely critical. Like there's so little room for error, and one slip-up might mean the difference between making the playoffs and missing out. One slip-up can mean the difference between making the playoffs and missing out. But you don't know, and because you don't know, there's no sense in acting like a front office needs to be perfect. A front office doesn't need to be perfect. A front office can win a World Series with one hundred and eighty-six million dollars committed to Barry Zito and Aaron Rowand.
If everything were the same, and everyone acted optimally and players always played to their projections, mistakes would be devastating. Mistakes would set you back, relative to the mean. This is why we make such a big deal out of moves we don't like. But what this leaves out is that everything doesn't go according to plan. There's a big, flashing variable in there. A big, flashing, lucky variable. Luck. Or, if you don't like the word 'luck', unpredictability. Sometimes things will happen that you don't see coming, and while that doesn't serve as the great equalizer, it does help to balance some things out.
The Mariners, for example, will never have the best combination of resources and intelligence in baseball. They won't. Not as long as teams like the Yankees and Red Sox are around. The Mariners will forever be operating at a disadvantage. But that eternal disadvantage isn't damning because of that very unpredictability that's always coming into play. Sometimes Javier Vazquez turns into a giant pile of crap. Sometimes Edgar Renteria hits really big home runs. What! That's all it is. Baseball is two parts I-saw-that-coming, and three parts What!
Brian Sabean is a flawed general manager with a long track record of questionable moves. And what he and his team showed in 2010 is that all you really need is a core. With guys like Tim Lincecum, Buster Posey, and Matt Cain hanging around, the core was in place. The rest was simply a matter of filling out the roster with young guys, vets, and cast-offs. That's what Sabean did, and we just saw the result. Some of the young guys stepped up. Some of the vets stepped up. Some of the cast-offs stepped up. The Giants won the Series.
On the one hand, it's frustrating, because you could argue that a number of other teams were in a better position coming into the year than the Giants were. Why should they be the ones who get to celebrate? But on the other hand, there's just so much hope in what they were able to do. If you're a decent team with a solid core, who knows? You might find an Aubrey Huff. You might find an Edgar Renteria. You might find a Cody Ross by accident.
Despite all of the numbers and all of the calculations that go into formulating some really good, really advanced projection systems, the fact of the matter is that, in any given season, pretty much any team could win the World Series. The Mariners could've rallied around Felix, Cliff Lee, and Ichiro. The Royals could've rallied around Zack Greinke, Billy Butler, and David DeJesus. The Nationals could've rallied around Stephen Strasburg, Ryan Zimmerman, and Adam Dunn. They didn't, of course, but they could have. It was within their range of possible outcomes. Just as this was within the range of the Giants'. Any team. It's *possible*.
A lot of weird moves led the Giants into and through this season - a season in which they were projected by most to be something like a .500 team. At no point did the Giants look like a potential top contender until they became one. In the end, they delivered to so many fans the happiest night of their lives.
Keep that in mind as we head into the winter. None of us think the Mariners are going to fly through this offseason and emerge as playoff darlings. We all figure there'll be a long climb back up, and the team won't really come into its own until 2012 or 2014, if it can get there at all with the people in charge. And the probability says that that's true. But then, 2011 comes next. And, who knows?
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The players won this one.
Sabean doesn’t deserve an iota of credit but will naturally ride this victory to another two decades of ridiculously gainful employment.
The players deserve 200% of the credit for this one.
by Jack Moore on Nov 2, 2010 12:36 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
That's kind of the point
Sabean didn’t necessarily deserve this. But he got it anyway, because, baseball!
by Jeff Sullivan on Nov 2, 2010 12:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, I'm just still trying to process it.
This is probably the craziest World Series winning team in my lifetime.
While I'm young, I can't think of a weirder example
I mean, I guess Kenny Williams won a World Series too. But these Giants position players could’ve/should’ve been terrible. Surprise!
by Jeff Sullivan on Nov 2, 2010 1:04 AM PDT up reply actions
I think this rotation gets overstated, too.
Madison Bumgarner wasn’t even on the team until June and Johnathan Sanchez had a 4.00 FIP and Barry Zito started a ton of games and Todd Wellemeyer was on the opening day rotation…
Then again, I guess Mark Buehrle, Jose Contreras, Freddy Garcia, and Jon Garland were pretty much the best world series rotation ever, so who the fuck knows
I think I'd disagree there
the 4 pitchers the Giants threw out there in the playoffs are among the best 1-2-3-4 in the league. It’s true MadBum took awhile to get here, but it’s a pretty damn good pitching staff
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, WORLD CHAMPION SAN FRANCISCO GIANT
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
11/1/10
In the playoffs and down the stretch, sure.
But through the first 162 and particularly on opening day, it wasn’t elite, it was Timmy/Cain and then three dice rolls.
And that's not even touching on the fact that many in saber circles thought Cain was overrated.
Timmy, a good-but-not-THAT-good pitcher, an unproven prospect, the Worst Contract Ever and Todd Wellemeyer.
Cain is weird in that he has consistently outpitched his mainstream saber pitching stats
but BIP metrics like tRA seem to love him
It's not a great way to do it, but I wonder what WS-winning team had the lowest projected win total before the season?
The Giants were projected at 76/77 wins by CHONE/CAIRO, though the Vegas over/under was a bit higher (83).
The trouble w/using advanced systems like CHONE is that they don’t go back too far, and the trouble w/using Vegas odds is that they’re not really attempting to be projections at all. Still, 76/77 seems like it’s going to be at or near the lower bound.
'87 Twins
Basically a .500 team over 5 years, and won two playoff series as a .500 team by winning a division during a weak year for the AL West.
by eponymous_coward on Nov 2, 2010 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions
I think the difference is that
the Twins had some decent players in both their rotation and their line-up; guys who before the season could’ve reasonably been expected to be league average or better. The Giants highest WAR position player is a 32-year old journeyman who’d never had 200 PAs in a season before. NO projection system had Aubrey Huff as a league-average player, let alone a nearly 6-win guy.
The Twins had a core that wasn’t too bad; I think they probably would’ve had a projection in the .500 to a bit better range, which is still better than the Giants’ 76-77 win projection.
All that said, I think that’s one of the better precedents we’ll find. They had a decent core, surrounded it with flotsam and jetsam, had a losing pythag record, etc.
They had to get on the team somehow. It's not like the Giants is a volunteer commune.
So he at least deserves an iota.
Ehhh. Man is good at drafting.
If you can be that good at drafting and have a large payroll, you can make mistake and keep ticking.
Morgan Ensberg for Manager 2011!
AL Scout on Rendon: "I would peg him as a poor man's Jose Lopez."
The guy he's put in charge of drafting is good at drafting
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, please keep hitting.
Whatever. He hired smart people then, which makes him good at his job.
Morgan Ensberg for Manager 2011!
AL Scout on Rendon: "I would peg him as a poor man's Jose Lopez."
As soon as it was hit I said "that'll score a run" and headed to the kitchen for a beer
and then my wife said “nope, that’ll score three”. I didn’t think there was any way that ball was out. Shows what I know!
by pdb on Nov 2, 2010 7:21 AM PDT up reply actions
I do think that Lincoln and Armstrong may hold this team back.
I trust Z and I’m glad they gave him almost complete control of the roster, but they make me wary of any moves the team will make.
I don't think Lincoln/Armstrong *help*
I just don’t see them as quite the hurdle a lot of other people do. They can be overcome.
by Jeff Sullivan on Nov 2, 2010 1:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Precisely.
Remember, the Mariners spent 4 consecutive years winning 90+ games with those same guys in charge. Any number of things could have happened during those years to give the Mariners hardware. They just didn’t.
by eponymous_coward on Nov 2, 2010 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions
To Jeff's point.
Luck and “What?” plays a big role. Even bigger in the postseason. Until we go to 162-game playoff series.
Just picture Randichiro.
I have never been clear as to how exactly they've supposed to have held the team back.
Both Bavasi and Jack Z seem to have pretty full control of things. Besides the whole Josh Lueke mess I cannot think of any particular instance that stands out. Yeah, the M’s have made some really dumb moves at times over the last decade, but most of those were clearly the front office’s fault.
Hasta tu suenos.
The Cossacks work for the Tsar.
In other words, they did a spectacularly bad job evaluating candidates when they hired Bill Bavasi. It was pretty obvious in 2003 this was the Wrong Guy. So saying “the front office screwed things up” doesn’t absolve upper management from responsibility in things, too.
by eponymous_coward on Nov 2, 2010 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions
That's sort of the point.
Front office hires GMs—how have they done at that? Moving from Bavasi to Z maybe indicates they’ve learned something?
But once the GM is in place, how exactly do they prevent the GM from succeeding?
It would depend on their organizational philosophy.
As an example, what if Lincoln/Armstong were to issue guidance to the GM that the organization was to focus on winning now at the expense of the farm system (i.e. no mulit year plans, trading prospects for rentals).* This wouldn’t totally prevent a GM from succeeding, but it would limit their options in how they wanted to run the team. Again, a good GM could probably overcome something like that, but limiting a GM’s courses of action for building a winning team certainly wouldn’t help.
- This is not meant to be an indicment of Lincoln/Armstong (I don’t want to start in on that) but merely and example to show how front office personnel above the GM could hold a team back.
No matter where you go, there you are.
So the whole argument rests on their hiring of Bill Bavasi seven years ago?
I guess you could also add waiting too long to fire him, but that seems indicative of their non-interference. Unless you think Jack Z is the wrong guy, I cannot see how that is much of a hit against them.
I guess that I just think all the “The Mariners will never win with Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong” talk is overly dramatic and based on very little evidence. As far as I can tell it rest on the ‘correlation equals causation’ fallacy;
-The Mariners have done badly the last few years
-Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong have been in charge of the Mariners for the last few years.
Therefore
-The Mariners have done badly the last few years because Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong have been in charge of the Mariners.
Hasta tu suenos.
Thanks again Jeff for all your great writing this post season.
From the post game thoughts here on LL to all the post season coverage on SBNation.com, it was very enjoyable and greatly added to the over all post season experience.
Peter Bourjos is faster than anyone on your team.
by 44FAN on Nov 2, 2010 1:15 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
This is as good a time as any to bust out this joke
Police reported last night the theft of the entire contents of the Seattle Mariners’ trophy room. Anyone found in possession of a large blue carpet with a compass rose on it should be reported to the police immediately.
by pdb on Nov 2, 2010 7:23 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
First time I've ever watched a game on DVR without knowing the score in advance.
Very interesting experience. Anyone here do this regularly? When I got home, i picked up my computer, opened my browser window, and nearly typed Lookout Landing in before I caught myself.
I do it regularly, too.
Tonight, Twitter ruined the score. Thankfully, my recording also got screwed up. It was the only game of the series I didn’t watch.
DVR is especially good to avoid nearly everything Tim McCarver says. He is just the worst.
Thanks for the year, Jeff.
Goodbye baseball. Hello baseball related shenanigans.
...and now I'm here
I do like "unpredictability" instead of "luck"
It’s not true randomness since good swings are still good swings, just like good pitches are still good pitches. But it is, maybe, an unexpected number of these good swings and good pitches based on what we should expect with the skillset. Renteria, for example, really did do very well this world series. No reason to take that away from him as though he called heads during the coin flip and got it right.
...and now I'm here
The weirdest thing about all this
Is that this easily could have been the Mariners (which I think is what Jeff was saying). Dominant starting pitching? Could have been us. Unexpected contributions from players the casual fan didn’t even realize were still in baseball? Could have been us. West Coast city celebrating its first championship? Could have been us.
Oh well.
I'd rather know a little about a lot than a lot about a little
by Sportszilla on Nov 2, 2010 9:22 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Absolutely.
Definitely makes it worth watching. Otherwise what would be the point?
2011 Seattle Mariners World Series Champions
MVP: Jose Lopez (If Edgar Renteria can do it, why not Jose Lopez)
by Jose Lopez's swing on Nov 2, 2010 9:45 AM PDT reply actions
"A complete idiot might be able to manage a championship team"
And yet, Bob Brenly has a ring from managing a championship team.
by eponymous_coward on Nov 2, 2010 10:13 AM PDT reply actions
On the Internet, if text is underlined and a different color
that generally means it is a hyperlink that will take you to another place! There could be words, sounds, or even pictures there!
by Eyebrows on Nov 2, 2010 10:30 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 5 recs
LOL
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, WORLD CHAMPION SAN FRANCISCO GIANT
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
11/1/10
I don't even
at the end of last year I felt, once again, like this was a hopeless team not worthy of my time. When MLB sent me the email about renewing MLB.tv i honestly considered canceling. “Why pay 20 bucks a month to watch this steaming pile of crap again?”.
You never freaking know. Ever. Baseball.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, WORLD CHAMPION SAN FRANCISCO GIANT
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
11/1/10
Well said
What is inspiring/frustrating is that this year’s Giants could have easily been us had many of our regular played like they are capable of
by Poochie on Nov 2, 2010 11:09 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I shudder to imagine the hideous gifs we would have created in such an event.
Dawg! He put da team on his back!
Eric Byrnes could have hit that dinger!
by seattlebruin on Nov 2, 2010 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions
I love baseball.
What a fucked up season.
I am going to come into your house at night and rec up the place.
I remember in the mid-2000s
when it seemed like Bavasi and Sabean were partners in crime. Crime of stupid baseball GMing. They traded a lot of mediocre players back and forth between them. Randy Winn, Yorvit Torrealba, Rich Aurilia, who else?
Mariners fans, take heart. It will be your year eventually. And it will feel so good.
You forgot 'times change and 'sometimes people do'
I don’t disagree with much of what you wrote, Jeff, but you made one dumb assumption— that a person’s ’skill (or lack thereof) is fixed. That is, a “bad” GM will always make “bad” decisions, regardless of the circumstances, producing “bad” results in every situation .
The reality is that very few people are that cut and dried, and the correct questions to ask are “What are his strengths and weaknesses?” and “Is he in a situation that favors his positives and minimizes his negatives?”
Brian Sabean is exceptionally brilliant at putting together a group of people who can scout, draft and develop young talent. He is absolutely awful at the veteran free agent process. His ability to trade veteran players for value is a strength. His willingness to give up quality prospects for veterans (trying to fill a hole) is a huge weakness.
Sabean has been a ‘good’ GM when he has been willing to develop young talent in his system. He has been a ‘bad’ GM when he is trying to ‘get them over the top’ or ‘rebuild on the fly.’
Because there will be pressure for him to repeat— and that seems to bring out the worst in Sabean— I would expect to see the ‘bad’ GM on display this off-season. It is possible that he has learned from his past and will not trade players like Joe Nathan, Boof Bonser and Francisco Liriano for A.J. Pierzynski (which he did because he wanted a replacement for 38-year-old Benito Santiago). It is possible that he hasn’t.
There are ‘bad’ managers, GMs and executives— people whose strengths are few and there is no situation in which you can reasonably expect him to succeed. Bill Bavasi was one of those— a long track record in many jobs with multiple teams and no success. His hiring was inexplicable. In six years as a GM in California, his teams won 47, 78,. 70. 84, 85 and 70 wins.
Most of the time, when a ‘good’ guy does ‘bad’ it’s just a poor match of person and situation. Mike Hargrove strengths were his willingness to play young hitters and his ability to spot bullpen talent. His weaknesses were his inability to build a rotation and his tendency to fiddle with players for no reason when the team wasn’t winning.
He was about the worst manager Bavasi could have hired, because there was so little he could do for that roster and so much he could screw up.
As to whether you have the right people in place, It isn’t clear about ‘Z’ (not enough data), but Chuck Armstrong has been around forever and the results have been horrible, except for the Pat Gillick period and a couple of years in the 1990’s. I don’t know how you could do much worse.

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