New Mortal Enemy: Players
by Jeff Sullivan on Oct 28, 2010 11:53 AM PDT
in Seattle Mariners Regular News
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PrintThe good news about this award is that nobody cares about this award.
The Sabermetric folks favor Felix Hernandez for his ERA, amount of quality starts and lack of run support, while others look toward CC Sabathia’s league-high 21 wins as a reason to anoint him the best pitcher this past season in the American League.
But the American League players, the guys who actually do the hitting and the pitching, voted the Rays David Price as their "Outstanding Pitcher" for the 2010 season.
Nevermind the hilarious juxtaposition of "sabermetric folks" with "ERA" and "quality starts". That's on the author. The rest is on the players. It was the players who, faced with David Price, Felix Hernandez, and CC Sabathia, settled on the first guy as their best pitcher of the season.
Price, of course, finished with a worse ERA than Felix. He finished with a worse strikeout rate than Felix. He finished with a worse walk rate than Felix. He finished with a worse home run rate than Felix. He finished with fewer innings than Felix. He finished with a worse batting average against than Felix.
One's assumption, then, would be that the players favored Price on account of his inflated win total (ignoring Sabathia entirely because come on). But then, that doesn't really make sense, as wins are something journalists look to when they talk about awards. Players can call on their own experiences standing in against a guy. So I don't think it's the wins. And then one notices that Rajai Davis batted .333 against Felix this year, while he batted .167 against Price. I'm pretty sure the Players Choice voting for AL Outstanding Pitcher was done by Rajai Davis.
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Hitting against the star pitcher of a division leader may feel different from hitting against the star pitcher of a cellar team.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
Wins also make a big difference.
No, not the wins of the pitcher, the wins of the hitters. It’s easy to forget a 0-4 night when you beat a team 2-0, It’s harder to forget that 0-4 night when you lose 3-4, and it’s your fault because you didn’t produce, and you’re a big jerk.
Also I have a feeling that since the Rays as a whole were more a threat it created more pressure inside the batters box, and more memorable at-bats.
Or am I way off base?
by SgtSasquatch on Oct 28, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
It can vary depending on the pitcher.
Guys used to talk about Moyer as the type of pitcher who could give you a very comfortable 0-for-4 night, but he didn’t seem to be the appropriate example to cite, what with the huge difference in stuff.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett Mariners Minors
by JY on Oct 28, 2010 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Fuck Rajai.
"Oh, the usual. I bowl. Drive around. The occasional acid flashback."
by the other side on Oct 28, 2010 12:27 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Are you sure it wasn't voted on by the Seattle Mariners position players?
You know since according to Joe Morgan:
“Felix had a fabulous year but his teammates didn’t support him. And it’s still a team game.”
and
I think it’s a joke to have that kind of debate. What Sabathia has done is be the best pitcher in the AL from opening day to this point. I don’t buy into the point that if Felix is pitching for someone else he’d have more wins. They said that about Cliff Lee when he left Seattle, but he’s lost more than he’s won since he left Seattle. The name of the game is to win and he’s won. And if you’re looking at a second guy, it has to be David Price. It’s amazing to me that we have let computers define him rather than performance. His job is to win the game, not just pitch 5-6 innings. I don’t think there should be a debate between Felix and Sabathia.
I think it's well established that he was pretty good at baseball and he's a fucking idiot when talking about it.
"Oh, the usual. I bowl. Drive around. The occasional acid flashback."
by the other side on Oct 28, 2010 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Who pitched just 5 - 6 innings?
I don’t get this at all.
I am going to come into your house at night and rec up the place.
Joe Morgan is terrible.
Don’t try to examine his statements like they make any kind of sense. That way lies madness.
by huskies2010 on Oct 28, 2010 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
HYPOTHESIS!
Players face pitchers at different times of the year and may not be able to compare them well because of it. For example, the Mariners didn’t face Cleveland or Boston until well into the second half of the season (Aug 13, Jul 22 respectively). Tampa Bay didn’t play Detroit until the second half as well. All those teams could use to judge Felix and Price were their reputations around the league.
The way to develop a reputation is to start strong, that way other players will talk about the pitcher all year long.
Price in April/May:
7-2, 2.57 ERA, 50 Ks
Felix in April/May:
2-4, 3.49 ERA, 65 Ks
CC in April/May:
4-3, 4.17 ERA, 54 Ks
Based on cherry-picking, Hypothesis not disproven!
Charter Member: Dave Sims Sweet Hat Club // Career .384 BA, .543 OBP for Rocky Diablos
by Two Rs and Two Ls on Oct 28, 2010 12:35 PM PDT reply actions
ok, here is the Sporting News voting explanation:
Voting for Sporting News’ awards was done by major league players, managers and general managers. Players voted for player of the year, comeback players and rookies of the year; managers voted for managers of the year; and general managers voted for the All-Star teams, from which pitchers and relievers of the year were picked
all I find for the Players awards is
“The Players Choice Awards annually honor the outstanding player, rookie, pitcher and comeback player in each league, and the Player of the Year and Man of the Year awards bestow top honors without regard to league. Balloting for the Players Choice Awards was conducted in September under the supervision of accounting firm KPMG. "
Players are humans
And they are probably among the least rational of humans. The absurd superstitions permeating every big league clubhouse should give you pause about taking seriously any assessment of value put forward by players.
Stupid, irrational or both
I just don’t imagine they put much/any time or consideration into voting for the “Sporting News Award For” anything.
by lemonverbena on Oct 28, 2010 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions
"I've been voting on these for 9 years-- I had no idea money was involved"
Brandon Inge, 2010 Marvin Miller Man of the Year, happily surprised to hear the charity of his choice would be getting a large donation.
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