State Of The Offense
Seems like as good a time as any to bring this up, what with all the handwringing over the Casey Kotchman move.
Ask anyone about the 2010 Mariners and, to a man, they'll tell you the same thing. This team can pitch a little bit, and its defense is extraordinary, but scoring runs will be a struggle. They'll tell you that the offense is poor, and that, while hitting isn't everything, it's important, and also this team's biggest weakness. In short, the consensus opinion seems to be that the lineup may not produce enough runs to get this team into the playoffs.
Now, it's not right to just focus on hitting, and I don't want to encourage that sort of analysis. Rather than as pitchers, hitters, and defenders, teams should be thought of as pitchers and position players. Position players provide value both at the plate and in the field. However, I'd still like to take this opportunity to point out that, though our lineup isn't terrific, it's really not that bad. People who're concerned about a 600-run season might want to take a step back and re-think their calculations.
Observe the following table. In it you'll find my best guess at the roster, my best guess at playing time, and each player's 2010 wOBA, as projected by CHONE. Try not to focus too much on the specifics. Maybe Josh Bard makes the team over Adam Moore. Maybe Milton Bradley gets a few more PAs. Maybe Jack Wilson stays healthy. Trust me when I say it doesn't make much of a difference. Giving all of Griffey's plate appearances to Bradley changes the team wOBA by a staggering two points.
Note the listing of [Name] for BENCH-OF. The assumption here is that the team will find a replacement for Bill Hall, and that he'll be something like a league-average hitter.
Onward!
| Position | Player | wOBA | PA |
| C | Johnson | 0.287 | 400 |
| 1B | Kotchman | 0.330 | 500 |
| 2B | Lopez | 0.331 | 650 |
| SS | Wilson | 0.291 | 450 |
| 3B | Figgins | 0.334 | 650 |
| LF | Langerhans | 0.311 | 300 |
| CF | Gutierrez | 0.329 | 600 |
| RF | Ichiro | 0.337 | 700 |
| DH | Bradley | 0.353 | 450 |
| BENCH-C | Moore | 0.304 | 250 |
| BENCH-IF | Hannahan | 0.302 | 200 |
| BENCH-OF | [Name] | 0.325 | 400 |
| BENCH-BAT | Griffey | 0.304 | 250 |
| VARIOUS | Assorted | 0.300 | 350 |
The result? A team wOBA of .321, against a Safeco-adjusted league average of .325. A year ago, the Mariners clocked in at .313, the result of collapses by Yuniesky Betancourt and Adrian Beltre and a mess in left field. This roster projects to be better by about 40 runs or so. Now, there's clearly room for some trouble in 2010 as well, as Jose Lopez may regress or Bradley could get really hurt, but a chunk of that is balanced out by Ichiro being projected 19 points below his career wOBA. Personally, I think the table above is pretty fair.
What if you're not a big fan of the CHONE projections? Let's take an alternate route and keep the same players and playing time while plugging in their 2009 performances instead. I don't necessarily recommend this, but just for the hell of it:
| Position | Player | wOBA | PA |
| C | Johnson | 0.274 | 400 |
| 1B | Kotchman | 0.312 | 500 |
| 2B | Lopez | 0.325 | 650 |
| SS | Wilson | 0.286 | 450 |
| 3B | Figgins | 0.353 | 650 |
| LF | Langerhans | 0.299 | 300 |
| CF | Gutierrez | 0.337 | 600 |
| RF | Ichiro | 0.369 | 700 |
| DH | Bradley | 0.340 | 450 |
| BENCH-C | Moore | 0.304 | 250 |
| BENCH-IF | Hannahan | 0.281 | 200 |
| BENCH-OF | [Name] | 0.325 | 400 |
| BENCH-BAT | Griffey | 0.323 | 250 |
| VARIOUS | Assorted | 0.300 | 350 |
Note that I left Moore, [Name], and Assorted as is. Slight park adjustments were made for Kotchman, Figgins, and Bradley.
The result? A team wOBA of .323. Virtually identical. We can say with a pretty high degree of certainty, then, that the current Mariner roster projects to be only a little below average at the plate. Using Fangraphs' numbers, a .321 team wOBA is something like 19 runs below average, and while there's room for the team to do worse than that, you also have to consider that Ichiro's pretty low, Griffey (and Langerhans) may do better in platoon roles, and the outfielder I think we're going to bring in may be better than this. Every projection comes with error bars. All you can plan for is the point in the middle.
All those people who think this offense is hopeless? All those people who don't want to trade Jose Lopez because "he's one of our only hitters"? Their hearts are in the right place, but their worries are not. Unless I'm missing something huge, I just don't think we look as bad at the plate as so many people have assumed. There's not a lot of home run power here, but home runs aren't the only way to score, and this team looks ready to prove it.
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Not to mention that we may get a moderate baserunning boost in runs scored
depending on which wOBA version you are using.
Good stuff, even I’m surprised by it.
Of course, somebody's going to collapse though, right?
We can’t have a Mariner season without a potential worst player in the bigs on the roster. Pineiro, Meche, Batista, Ramirez, Betancourt, Vidro, Cedeno, …
Apparently he has like 5 of them left
I think the Universe is due for some regression though, this year it’s likely just going to paralyze one from the waist down.
by OlSalty on Jan 7, 2010 1:17 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Was Al Martin good at defense?
Very little UZR data out there on him, but from what there is, seems like he may have been, which may have made him not that terrible of a player. He also had a low BABIP that year.
FUCK THE ANGELS!
by Fuckmikereilly on Jan 7, 2010 1:20 PM PST up reply actions
Good enough to play safety at USC.
Unfortunately, not good enough to tackle Leroy Hoard.
Someone's probably going to collapse
but we also have Lopez, Guti, Kotchman, and Johnson as young guys who could potentially step up.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 7, 2010 1:22 PM PST up reply actions
How much does Lopez really have left in his bat though?
25 homers and an ISO of .180 seems like a lot for a guy with his skillset. I just don’t see a big wOBA jump unless he starts walking a lot more. Sure his BABIP will probably regress, but best case, I think he’s like a .315/.345/.490 hitter
Though I guess that would be pretty good.
His BABIP was only .274 last year
And he makes a lot of contact and doesn’t strike out too much. He could possible see a BA around .300 pretty easily.
Also, if he ever learns to walk his value spikes up dramatically.
On the other hand, there is the possibility that he sees his power jump a little. That could have the effect of him seeing less strikes and increasing his walk rate.
I think only the first one is very probable. The other two are mostly just hopes.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 7, 2010 3:08 PM PST up reply actions
We might rival last year's A's in home runs though
Over/Under 135?
With this lineup I'm thinking possible double digits
by Dewey N on Jan 7, 2010 1:27 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Depends heavily on that last bat and whether Lopez takes a step back
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 7, 2010 1:32 PM PST up reply actions
I can't think of a single team that hasn't managed double digit homers.
by Graham MacAree on Jan 7, 2010 1:45 PM PST up reply actions
Brewers, Royals, Red Sox, Angels in 1992
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 7, 2010 1:47 PM PST up reply actions
What's special about 1992?
Expansion in 1993?
The Brewers were good and the others were not
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 7, 2010 1:48 PM PST up reply actions
Expansion re-alignment
why they ended up in a six-team division while the AL West has four teams, ask Bud Selig, not me
I guess Bud thought they'd make more money in the NL
But it sure would be more logical to move them to the AL West
Also, Milwaukee has history with the NL (Milwaukee Braves)
so it made some semblance of sense.
Batted .393/.614/.464 for 2009 Diablos, #5 in OBP for PSSBL Rocky Division.
by Two Rs and Two Ls on Jan 7, 2010 2:59 PM PST up reply actions
Baseball-Reference is the most amazing website I've ever encountered
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 7, 2010 1:57 PM PST up reply actions
Whoever that last bench person is
It would be nice if they could played 3rd without getting destroyed considering we don’t really have a backup SS
Ranking below average on half of baseball is not a good way to win a lot.
We aren’t a bad team, but it’s near impossible to be a top 3-4 team in the AL with below average offense.
Hey everyone, Follow me on Twitter!, check out My Baseball Blog, and Last.fm me!
by lailaihei on Jan 7, 2010 1:30 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Half of baseball?
And it’s very close to average
Our position players are below-average on offense but well above-average overall
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 7, 2010 1:33 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not saying we'rebelow
Hey everyone, Follow me on Twitter!, check out My Baseball Blog, and Last.fm me!
by lailaihei on Jan 7, 2010 3:01 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
What the hell at premature iPhone posting...
Hey everyone, Follow me on Twitter!, check out My Baseball Blog, and Last.fm me!
by lailaihei on Jan 7, 2010 3:01 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Anyway...
I’m just saying that although our run prevention may be at or near best in the league, our run scoring half is below average, meaning we are likely going to be the worst playoff team if we make it that far.
Hey everyone, Follow me on Twitter!, check out My Baseball Blog, and Last.fm me!
by lailaihei on Jan 7, 2010 3:04 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Well we're obviously not going to be better than the Yankees and Red Sox
But why would our run prevention not help us win in the playoffs like it did in the regular season, hypothetically? Those juggernaut offenses are going to have to face Felix Hernandez or Cliff Lee in (potentially) ~3 out of those 5 games or 4 out of 7. Making them decidedly less juggernaut-y in a short series.
Actually, I think it's quite possible.
I saw a study where teams with above average defense and below average offense won seven our of the last 30 World Series.
This isn't really true though
Our run prevention will be insane.
In addition to points made above
we don’t have to be a top 3-4 team in the AL. We just have to be better than Oakland, Texas and Anaheim.
And the way you phrase makes it sound like the team is opting in to mediocre hitting and then building from there. It’s very important to realize the lackluster hitting is coming at a cost of superb defense. It’s a tradeoff, not a handicap. Ignoring the defense while railing against the hitting is just silly.
Good point.
A lot of fans seem to forget where we just came from and how far we’ve come in just a little over a year. There’s only so many avenues to pursue to improve, and they have a budget to work with. It’s not reasonable to think they can become one of the best teams in baseball in such a short time. The best you can hope for is what they’ve done so far; make every move count and increase the talent whenver you have the opportunity to do so. The most efficient way so far has been to acquire strong defensive players because they’re coming cheaper than primarily offensive players. Except for Bradley, of course. He’s definitely an offensive player.
by nathaniel dawson on Jan 7, 2010 3:52 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think I understand this.
If we had a team that only scored 1 run a game, but gave up 0 every game, we’d win every game. They’re not added together. For example, if a team was 36/50% as good as they can be at offense, and 36/50% as good as they can be at run prevention, and our team is 1/50% as good as they can be at offense and 50/50% as good as possible at run prevention, we’re still going to win a lot of games, even though their team “adds” to 62 and our team adds to 51. If our team had perfect run prevention, having a good offense would be irrelevant, and whether or not the other team has a good offense or a good defense would also be irrelevant.
...and now I'm here
I think it's really important that people understand this
Way too many fans are panicking about the offense.
My Mariners blog - SodoMojo, Twitter Feed, Fuck the fucking Angels!
Using CHONE
In order for this offense to be as bad as it was a year ago, you’d have to replace Ichiro with Saunders and Figgins with Josh Wilson.
I don't see why not
he had beer on his face after the Guti homer last year
at least we think it was beer
it was Belgian white ale ifyouknowwhatimean
by pdb on Jan 7, 2010 4:01 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
He seems to have it on his face
a lot so I wouldn’t be surprised
That's egg, though
Comes from a totally different gender.
by Fez on Jan 7, 2010 8:19 PM PST up reply actions
Sex. It comes from a different sex.
Gender is a social construct, sex is biological.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 8, 2010 8:15 AM PST up reply actions
Was it a funk blast?
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 8, 2010 8:16 AM PST up reply actions
No big HR dude is pretty rad.
I’m still hoping we purposefully don’t add a “big HR bat” just so we can win stuff without one, giving us at least an extra 50 awesome-points. Clamor for a big OBP bat! Rabble rabble rabble.
I am not too worried about the offense because of the run prevention part
but wasn’t last years offense like 13th of 14 in the AL last year. So while we’re projected to be a little better, below average in MLB is nearly last again in the AL. I am ok with it because our pitching/D should be quite the equalizer. I just hate when our #4 guy gives up 5 in the first 2 innings and the game ‘feels’ over due to our weak hitting. I rarely got the feeling last year that we could overcome any deficit. We were a much more hack-tastic lineup then, and thank Zod for finding people who can get on base for this years team. I do think we’ll be successful this year based on just finally getting a full team of players that fit the ballpark, rather than a bunch of hack righties (STILL can’t figure out what Bavasi was building, because it was a baseball team fitting for its home park).
I am always lurking here, but I don’t post much due to my inability to contribute much in the way of analysis. Way too many ‘I think’s and ‘I feel’s to make any actual arguements. However, I do appreciate the work everyone puts in. Its a great BASEBALL site, not just M’s.
I have a cousin with 1 testicle, when they yell play ball, he smiles.
It's below average to AL, not MLB.
Jeff used AL-only numbers
I don't think that's true
Fangraphs doesn’t seem to separate them.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 7, 2010 4:24 PM PST up reply actions
So you lied to me before?
Regardless, the projection above is something like 9th or 10th best in the AL.
Fernando Tatis
Hits right handed and can play 1B/3B/OF.
He’s been worth 1.5 WAR the last two years.
Tatis > Nady
Good god he was terrible at defense.
by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Jan 7, 2010 3:42 PM PST up reply actions
Apparently he got a lot less bad.
That or he’s just not suited for 3B, which wouldn’t surprise me. Maybe instead of “can play” I should have said “has played.”
Zduriencik will prove to the Mariners fanbase,
That you dont need home runs to win.
I want to see us make the playoffs with less than 100 homers!
OBP, Baserunning, Pitching, and Defense!
Just be ready for the team to referred to as a fluke all year if they succeed. Not that we should care...but it'll be annoying
I hope you die. I hope we BOTH die.
I was really referring to the mainstream media regarding the M's as a fluke, not the community here at LL
I hope you die. I hope we BOTH die.
A hitter off the bench, you say?
Let’s make like the Cardinals and see what Alvin Davis is up to.
Or you mean Edgar.
2009 Safeco Field Record: 6-0 ; Overall Safeco Field Record: 10-4
by Fin on Jan 7, 2010 9:10 PM PST up reply actions
Jack cracked a funny in the press conference.
He said Kotchman would compete with Ichiro and Figgins for the leadoff spot. No response, so he correct himself pretty quickly.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
*corrected
I can do it too….
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Jan 7, 2010 7:02 PM PST up reply actions
According to Baker, Kotchman had family issues that sapped his power and focus - issues that GMZ "knows" about.
So it IS possible that this move is thought to be a bigger move than it actually is. We know from previous trades that Jack believes in change of environments, so I can see it being possible that he truly expects Kotchman to rebound and become an average/above average hitter. Or, if not expects, is banking on.
...and now I'm here
Maybe.
I’d be much more interested to see if he came to camp in the best shape of his life or if he’s been working on a new pitch.
Man, with Ian Snell, Milton Bradley and now Casey Kotchman
the healing powers of Junior are really going to be tested. How is Casey going to feel the white love without Mike Sweeney and Russell Branyan around?
Maybe him and Jack Wilson will go wine tasting?
2009 Safeco Field Record: 6-0 ; Overall Safeco Field Record: 10-4
We still have one roster spot.
Sweetie Sweeney still has a space.
...and now I'm here
Jack Wilson
Racer X. You have to love those amarillo hops.
p.s. fuck you angels
I like how Baker opens the article by stating the Kotchman is not using his family issues as an excuse for his drop in offense.
Then Geoff goes on to use them as an excuse.
So, Sandmeyer thinks the offense has moved from a D to a C this season
and that last year’s win total was pretty much a fluke, though this year might be more realistic. This after Mitch announced JR as your starting DH, with Adam Moore behind the plate
Mitch wonders if maybe Jack goes and gets a quality right-handed bat to platoon with JR at DH, and then eventually force JR to the bench.
Because apparently Grif will be playing every day.
by msb on Jan 8, 2010 7:45 AM PST up reply actions
I am stunned.
Where oh where shall I find out what is real and true in this world!?!
by msb on Jan 8, 2010 8:18 AM PST up reply actions
Speaking of real and true
I haven’t had the strength to go look and see what the Times response to Jack saying things like: “But at the end of the day, for some of the things we were looking for, with this acquisition right here – and then you look at Figgins and everything else we have on our ballclub, and Jack Wilson being healthy – this could really be a fun club to watch defensively.”
by msb on Jan 8, 2010 8:19 AM PST up reply actions
Well, the offense did move from a D last season to C now.
Or maybe D- to C. They scored the least runs in the AL last year and project near average this year. Of course, they shouldve scored more runs than they did last year, they got unlucky with runners in scoring position – but they still wouldve been bad.
At least they have learned that pythagorean average is a better judge of the teams performance than W-L record. They just need to improve again to looking at 3rd order wins.
I would love to see a player pull a Tommy Herr circa 1985 this year.
I bet our #3 hitter could get 100 RBI in his sleep.
Damn good call.
For all of the wee ones on LL, even in the lower scoring, pre-1987 NL, Herr’s ’85 stuck out: he racked up 110 RBIs despite hitting only eight HRs. One of the few men to get over 100 RBIs with under 10 HRs.
Also, it's a cool stat even if it is a useless stat.
RBI is terrible for analysis. Doesn’t make it any less fun to watch occur.
...and now I'm here
Encouraging picture overall
but I wonder if it’s a little weak in the bench. Having received the Book for Christmas, I was just going through the chapters on matchups and pinch hitting. Given the ~.034 wOBA pinch hitting penalty, isn’t it going to be hard to improve on Johnson’s and Wilson’s offense in late game situations? Wouldn’t sending Moore, Hannahan, or Griffey up for Johnson and Wilson be worse for the M’s?

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