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On Understanding The Kotchman Move

I thought I had something new and interesting to say until I realized that Dave beat me to it in the comments yesterday. Of course. But, whatever, it deserves a bigger post.

According to Alex Speier, or - more accurately - according to Alex Speier's source, the Mariners are going to be sending to Boston something like $7.5-8m to help pay for Bill Hall. If Kotchman gets paid as he's expected to get paid in 2010, that means we will have brought him in at a net cost of $2.5m or $3m or so.

Most people aren't big fans. Kotchman isn't a horrible player, and it's a small commitment, but most everyone had a dream scenario at 1B that in no way involved Casey Kotchman. Even those that dreamed smaller were holding out hopes for a guy like Russell Branyan, so Kotchman's underwhelming. He offers minimal improvement to a lousy offense, and limited improvement overall. In short, people wanted more.

But there's an extra element to all this that few have been talking about. The focus, rightly, has been on Kotchman. He's the guy being brought in as a regular. However, consider Bill Hall. By shipping Hall to Boston in exchange for a first baseman, the M's have left themselves with an open roster spot. They've just shifted that opening from 1B to righty OF. Before the trade, it was assumed that Hall, Ryan Langerhans, Milton Bradley, and Ken Griffey Jr. would rotate through DH and left field. Now, with Hall out of the picture, there's a need for a guy who can hit lefties and play the field to complete the picture.

Dave mentioned Xavier Nady as an option. Reed Johnson and Rocco Baldelli are out there, too, along with a host of others. And here we begin to see how this trade could make a little more sense. Because, while Kotchman isn't much of an asset, neither is Bill Hall, and by ditching the latter, room is made for an improvement. Hall hasn't hit since 2006. Last year his BB/K against lefties slipped from 0.44 to 0.14. I know he's hit lefties in the past, but there's good reason to believe that even that ability has gone missing, leaving Hall as a pretty poor player. Now the M's have a chance to get more from the role. Not a ton, but a handful of runs, and maybe even as much as a win depending on how bad you think Hall is now, who the M's get to replace him, and playing time. And that's pretty significant.

In this way, we could make sense of the Kotchman deal by seeing it as half of a pair of moves - one to fill 1B, and one to replace Hall. Neither is an earth-shaking move on its own, but, combined, the total value could be similar to what the M's could've gotten from, say, Adam LaRoche, Lyle Overbay, or Russell Branyan, and they don't have to worry about cost or, in Branyan's case, injury. Think about it. Let's take LaRoche. LaRoche wants money and a couple years, and he would've been projected to provide about two wins. Kotchman projects as a cheap 1-1.5 win player, and the opportunity exists for the M's to add a cheap half-win or so on top of Hall. Bam. Similar. All things being equal, you'd rather have LaRoche, but all things aren't equal, and the M's presumably aren't interesting in making a bigger commitment than they have to.

As Dave says in his comment, this isn't about Kotchman over the alternative first basemen. Chances are, this is about Kotchman and a righty OF over the alternative first basemen and Hall. And through that lens, it's a lot easier to stomach. I'm sure there are things about Kotchman that the organization likes, but from what I can tell, I'm guessing that's not the only reason they did this. This has given them the opportunity to get better at a position they may not have thought they could improve.

Maybe I'm wrong. It's entirely possible that Z and the rest of the front office are planning something completely different - they kind of have a knack for throwing everyone off the scent. But I think the most likely outcome is that we bring in a righty bat to split time in the outfield, and though we can't pass official judgment until we know who that hypothetical player is, I'm confident that, whoever it may turn out to be, he'll have some talent, and his addition will make this a more complete team.

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I guess that's what it would look like if Eddie Vedder and Dave Abbruzzese had a child

Sorry, Pearl Jam joke.

2009 Safeco Field Record: 6-0 ; Overall Safeco Field Record: 10-4

by Fin on Jan 6, 2010 11:53 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

So Ryan Doumit would still make lots of sense

This hypothetical bat would be nice if it was a kick ass left fielder or someone who can play both LF and 1B

by Poochie on Jan 6, 2010 8:22 PM PST reply actions  

Re: your antepenultimate paragraph

Kotchman + Hall’s replacement are two players. Even though their combined WAR might equal an Overbay’s or a LaRoche’s, isn’t that offset by the use of two roster spots?

by katal on Jan 6, 2010 8:22 PM PST reply actions  

But in the Overbay/LaRoche situation, Hall's there too, and Hall's bad

And though you could argue that the M’s could’ve just cut Hall anyway, they wouldn’t want to eat seven figures.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 6, 2010 8:25 PM PST up reply actions  

I still like Winn.

Even with an average bat, he’s a ~2-2.5 win player. And it’ll keep Bradley’s average fielding out of left field.

A Mariners fan in Seattle

by Coach Owens on Jan 6, 2010 8:35 PM PST reply actions  

Winn might work but...

Randy Winn (switch hitter) wants a full time role and hit nothing vs LHP last year. Good fielder, good baserunner, smart player, poor arm, strong defensively. He would block Saunders initially but if Winn would be willing to play a lesser role, and returns to form vs LHP, he could be a great pickup. I prefer Baldelli (RHB)… just as good defensively with a better arm, better vs LHP &, I think, 8 years younger. Baldelli is injury prone but he would allow Saunders to play more often vs RHP.

Both would be a good pickup if they are willing to sign knowing they are expected to be a role player and not a full time player. Both would be very good 4th outfielders.

by algionfriddo on Jan 7, 2010 12:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Any signing we make will block Saunders

It’s pretty clear he’s not going to be our starting LF now. But yeah, point taken.

by OlSalty on Jan 7, 2010 12:50 AM PST up reply actions  

Do you really think that it won't bounce back?

His BABIP against them was also miserable (.178 vs .301 for his career). His career batting line against them is decent at .280/.332/.426.

A Mariners fan in Seattle

by Coach Owens on Jan 6, 2010 8:49 PM PST up reply actions  

He's 35 (36 in June).

I think it is safe to assume his career isn’t on the rebound, luck be damned.

by Wilder. on Jan 6, 2010 8:59 PM PST up reply actions  

He could probably get at least to 0 RAA hitting wise.

And that’s probably the minimum. Players (albeit it’s not all that unusual) generally don’t just collapse like that.

A Mariners fan in Seattle

by Coach Owens on Jan 6, 2010 9:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Unless you are really really really high on his defense

Winn projects as something like a 1.5-win player. Maybe 2. Always underrated, but nearing the end.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 6, 2010 9:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Isn't that sort of what we're looking for?

A 1.5-2 win player? Winn would also be easy to let go if he sucks and if Saunders is tearing up AAA.

by MFAN on Jan 6, 2010 9:14 PM PST up reply actions  

He's an option

I don’t think he’s a perfect fit, but he’s in the group.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 6, 2010 9:26 PM PST up reply actions  

It's really so much easier to find a plus fielder who can mash lefties specifically

rather than a meh bat, no? AAAA is full of guys like that.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 7, 2010 12:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Which doesn't mean he won't bounce back.

Because he did have some miserable luck. His skills may be declining (in fact it’s safe to say they are), but generally speaking terrible luck isn’t an ongoing thing. Unless you’re Rick DiPietro, or a Pirates fan.

I don’t think he’d be a bad option, at least not in the short term.

Look upon my 62% faceoff win rate, ye mortals, and despair!

by Orion Moony on Jan 6, 2010 9:07 PM PST up reply actions  

I've always been fond of WInn,

even before I learned about the wonderful world of WAR and so on. He’s aging, but he’s still a fine player. All the same, what does Winn give you that Saunders does not?

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 7, 2010 12:09 AM PST up reply actions  

But we would only need him as a righty

since Langerhans is a better hitting/defending lefty

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 7, 2010 12:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Not sure he's a better hitter against righties

And being able to switch-hit still helps, because you don’t get to play to your platoon in 100% of situations.

by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 7, 2010 12:16 AM PST up reply actions  

So Winn is an Old Crustacean

that was aged too long, at a little too high temp, w/ a little sun light creeping in. Saunders is a Pliny the Elder, young but good?

by chrisisasavage on Jan 7, 2010 12:12 AM PST up reply actions  

Mannnn..... wowwwww

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!

Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...

by baetown415 on Jan 6, 2010 11:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Who is the best defensive player available.

I want such good defense that other teams can only score on HR and walks.

by Kirk on Jan 6, 2010 9:05 PM PST via mobile reply actions  

A RH OF we need you say?

Sounds like a job for the Washington Nationals!

by Matthew on Jan 6, 2010 9:22 PM PST reply actions  

We need to make a trade with the Nationals

How about Denny Almonte, Greg Halman, Yohermyn Chavez and Daniel Carroll for Adam Dunn and a lot of cash. It would be hilarious watching him rome LF at Safeco, while awesome watching him hit.

by _David_ on Jan 6, 2010 10:11 PM PST reply actions  

I bet Z would LOVE to acquire Dunn to DH

Perfect fit for the stadium. That said, I also bet he wouldn’t give up more than one C+/B- prospect for the “honor”, so it isn’t happening. Also, Dunn NEEDS to DH. He’d be 2.5 WAR or so as DH, as a 1B, not so much.

by chrisisasavage on Jan 6, 2010 11:34 PM PST up reply actions  

I do not understand the "Mariners send $7.5-8m to Boston" part of the deal.

Isn’t most of Hall’s salary being paid by the Brewers? I thought our committment to Hall was only $1-2m in 2010. Why would we send almost a 10th of our budget to Boston if Milwaukee’s picking up Hall’s tab?

by Decatur on Jan 6, 2010 10:46 PM PST reply actions  

If I understand correctly

we are passing along money sent to us by the Brewers. I could be wrong, and didn’t actually bother looking it up.

by chrisisasavage on Jan 6, 2010 10:48 PM PST up reply actions  

When someone trades a player and cash to another team, they don't get to keep the cash and send it later

The Brewers are ‘paying Hall’s salary’ only in the sense that the money used to pay Hall is still accounted for in their budget, but in reality it’s in Seattle. Now it’s in Boston.

by Graham MacAree on Jan 7, 2010 7:01 AM PST up reply actions  

Ah ok that makes more sense.

I was always under the assumption that these kind of deals were paid on a year to year basis.

A Few Hail Zduriencik!

by Goose on Jan 7, 2010 7:04 AM PST up reply actions  

They kinda are, but at the same time they're kinda not

It’s easier and closer to the reality of what’s actually happening to just think about money jumping around than as someone paying a player who doesn’t play for their team.

by Graham MacAree on Jan 7, 2010 7:49 AM PST up reply actions  

Do you have a link for this?

This is one area that I’ve always been unsure on how it works and given the nature of MLB accounting practices, have never seen solid intel on.

by Matthew on Jan 7, 2010 10:55 AM PST up reply actions  

Oddly enough, Cot's now has the money going from the Brewers to the Red Sox.

I wouldn’t have thought that’s how it works. It makes more sense if the Brewers ’ money went to Seattle, then Seattle and Boston would agree on how much money is transferred between Seattle and Boston. What if Kotchman’s salary was more, and Seattle wanted to keep some of that money? Would Boston then have to send Seattle some money?

by nathaniel dawson on Jan 7, 2010 3:29 PM PST up reply actions  

How much playing time was Hall expected to actually get anyway?

I can’t really imagine our 4th OF getting much playing time. Ichiro and Gutierrez are pretty much good for 162 games. LF is a little more open but with Bradley and Saunders, the OF is pretty much accounted for.

How much value can a right handed OF bring to this team if he doesn’t really get the playing time?

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 6, 2010 11:01 PM PST reply actions  

Presumably

Hall and Langerhans would have split LF as essentially a platoon. Also, some days Bradley would play LF and Griffey would DH.

So this RH hitter is essentially taking all of his AB’s from a Hall/Langerhans/Griffey platoon. I’d imagine he’ll get a fair amount, especially against lefties.

FUCK THE ANGELS!

by Fuckmikereilly on Jan 6, 2010 11:45 PM PST up reply actions  

I think the main thing about these paying trades is that it always feels weird to give away a lot of money.

Especially when there are free agents out there and you’re trying to ink Felix. I know that money has no correlation with potential Felix money, but it feels like it could be. Stupid gut. Making me feel all Geoff Baker-y.

by SethGrandpa on Jan 7, 2010 12:32 AM PST reply actions  

I see this line of thinking and its solid

but I think the problem is that a platooned RH outfielder will have a hard time accruing enough playing time to provide any significant amount of value. Bill Hall’s value came not as an outfielder but from his extreme flexibility. If his bat really is a dud then clearing his roster spot was a good move, but if there is any life left in it his versatility would make him more valuable than a Reed Johnson simply because he can log innings at short.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 7, 2010 7:23 AM PST reply actions  

Reed Johnson?

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!

Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...

by baetown415 on Jan 7, 2010 12:25 PM PST reply actions  

He's a baseball player who is currently a free agent.

More information can be found here.

Say it with me: Washington Capitals. Capitals.
Preserved In All His Greatness - R.I.P. The Reignman 1989 to 1997

by JLProck on Jan 7, 2010 7:02 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

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