Nick Hill And A Projection Experiment
A great deal of work has gone into trying to calculate Major League equivalencies of minor league numbers so that we may be given a better understanding of a young player's future. Sometimes these equivalencies work really well. Other times they don't. Being that it remains an inexact science, then, here I will attempt to project Nick Hill as a big league starter based only on his scouting report, using a grand total of zero statistics.
- Report: Lefty
Consequence: Hill will face a very disproportionate amount of right-handed hitters, likely between 75-80% - Report: High-80s extreme sinking fastball
Consequence: Hill will generate a ton of groundballs and be especially difficult for lefties to square up. He will also likely pitch to contact and not rack up many strikeouts. - Report: Best changeup in the system, per Baseball America
Consequence: Hill will be able to avoid the Sean Green problem of having nothing to throw to opposite-handed hitters. By having multiple offerings, he should keep from posting too extreme a platoon split. - Report: Solid curve
Consequence: Curves, like changeups, work all right against opposite-handed hitters. But curves, unlike changeups, can also be used often and effectively against same-handed guys. This pitch will allow Hill to get his strikeouts, as it gives lefties a breaking ball to worry about while giving righties a pitch that breaks in the opposite direction of his fastball and change. - Report: Three-quarters delivery, sort of short-arms the ball
Consequence: That he goes three-quarters instead of over the top means his platoon split will likely be a little wider, despite the change and curve. Short-arm action probably adds a little deception, which may not help, but couldn't hurt, unless Rob Johnson is catching. - Report: Commands the strike zone
Consequence: Hill's a strike-thrower. The best pitchers in baseball throw strikes, miss bats, and keep the ball on the ground; Hill is capable of two of those. By being able to work in and around the zone, and also by being fairly hittable, Hill shouldn't ever have much of a walk problem.
I think all of this information gives us a pretty good profile. With that kind of sinker, we can guess that Hill will be a 50% groundball guy - maybe even 55%. He won't get a ton of strikeouts, especially since he'll mostly be facing righties, but his secondary stuff is good enough to keep him from Nate Cornejo territory. The combination of command and hittability will keep the walks down.
So let's go ahead and plug in 5 K/9, 3 BB/9, 50% groundballs, and a normal HR/FB rate. The end result? A park-neutral FIP right in the 4.4-4.5 range, putting Hill in some decent company. By skillset, he comes out looking pretty similar to, say, Paul Maholm, and that particular profile we just put together puts him out in front of one Jarrod Washburn, who can only dream of having Hill's ability to interest the infield.
That's a pretty good back-of-the-rotation pitcher, and that's not even his maximum upside. Now, granted, Hill isn't exactly a high-ceiling kind of guy, but there's room for him to generate more groundballs or allow fewer walks than I just wrote, which would obviously work to his benefit. While 5/3/50% would be cool, that by no means represents the maxing out of his ability.
Nick Hill is no guarantee to make the Major Leagues, and given that he's only made 19 starts as a professional, he still has to prove himself capable of holding his own in a rotation. He has some development ahead of him yet. However, despite being a prospect, possessing that kind of skillset makes Hill a solid bet going forward. Groundball/command guys without strikeout stuff don't often turn into aces, but they do turn into cheap starter talent, and though Hill's still got work to do, he's well on his way to having a pretty good career.
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Am I right to believe that he sounds like a Jaime Moyer type pitcher?
Not a power pitcher, but a command pitcher that is able to hit his spots. If he posts the numbers that you projected, he sounds like a solid #3 or 4 pitcher.
by seattle_since_81 on Jan 26, 2010 6:15 PM PST reply actions
Moyer-type in that he could succeed without much stuff
But Moyer was (is?) a changeup guy who gets a ton of fly balls, while Hill’s a sinker guy who keeps the ball on the ground.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 26, 2010 6:19 PM PST up reply actions
Is his changeup the best in the system because it's great or because no other pitcher possesses a decent change?
(A question directed at those who have knowledge of our farm system)
Hill's is good.
But we’ve also on the whole shifted away from Bobby Livingston and Cesar Jimenez type pitchers over the past few years, so we don’t have many of those classic lefty change-up artists anymore except for maybe Vargas?
The only guy that I would think of off-hand who is rather noted for his solid change would be Pineda.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Jan 26, 2010 7:48 PM PST up reply actions
Nick Green seemed underwhelming at the AFL when I saw him.
Why that doesn't look like Nick Green at all
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 26, 2010 6:44 PM PST up reply actions
I am impressed you know what Nick Green looks like
by Dewey N on Jan 26, 2010 6:47 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I am pretty sure that is Nick Green. I mean, he came over to me when I asked "Hey Nick, would you sign?".
He signed the baseball “Nick Green”. Why the hell would anyone pretend to be “Nick Green” if they are going to fake being someone? I mean, there has to be other Nicks you could pretend to be that are better off then Nick Green.
Nick Cage
Nick Nolte
Nick Jonas
by mark sobba on Jan 26, 2010 7:01 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly 1 hr after Jeff said something. Hah.
Is he throwing a change in the 2nd image?
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 26, 2010 8:04 PM PST up reply actions
Looks like a two seamer.
It might be a palm change-up with a vulcan-grip but I think it’s the former.
You got slurved!
I think it would be cool if some people who know what they are talking about would start a discussion somewhere
about all the different grips out there for changes and curves and their pros/cons. I feel like I know so little about this stuff besides what you kinda learn through watching the game.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 27, 2010 12:35 AM PST up reply actions
Could be either
It looks like a vulcan but I just picked up a ball and was playing around with grips and it could be a fastball too if his hand is just turned over slightly.
It looks like a changeup to me.
The third image also looks like some type of changeup.
The fastball is usually held with the index finger and middle finger on top of the ball, the thumb underneath, and the ring finger and pinky on the side.
The changeup, particularly the straight change, tends to have all the fingers on top of and around the ball and the ball mashed back into the palm. That way when you release the ball, you don’t get the extra 7-8 mph of hop from the snap of the fingers. Instead you just get the hand speed.
Nick Hill’s changeup grip doesn’t look much like Gagne’s “Vulcan” changeup to me. See Chris O’Leary’s comments on Gagne’s grip here:
http://www.chrisoleary.com/Projects/Baseball/Pitching/ThePitchingMechanic/2006/ThePitchingMechanic_200612.html
Gagne's changeup is a variant of the circle change.
Hill’s could be that he’s using his palm or it looks like he’s using the thumb to hold the bottom rather than using the circle grip to hold it.
You got slurved!
So did he actually sign it "Nick Green" like you mentioned above?
I fucking hate you Mariners
by kentroyals5 on Jan 27, 2010 11:30 AM PST up reply actions
Is there a compelling reason why Hill isn't penciled in as our 5th starter
Or is it just because Fister and Vargas have already started in the majors?
He could also stand to build his endurance
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 26, 2010 6:59 PM PST up reply actions
That is the biggest thing right now. Lots of reports say he has a significant drop in velo after ~3-4 innings..
Also, I can’t stand watching him pitch because his delivery looks genuinely painful. Not that that means anything… just sayin’.
I agree.
Judging from the pictures and Jeff’s report, he looks like he might have elbow problems in the near future.
Clearly
if you look at the inverted G between his elbow and forearm, you can clearly see the beginning stages of a torn elbow ligament.
I predict this will manifest itself sometime in the next 8-12 weeks, most likely in the 73 days and 15 hours range, probably while throwing a curveball.
by seattlebruin on Jan 27, 2010 10:44 AM PST up reply actions
Is this a projection for if Hill pitched today?
Or is this a projection for what Hill will be like in 2 years? And is/would there be a difference?
...and now I'm here
I think he could achieve this sort of performance without a lot more work
Realistically, I think stamina is the biggest remaining question.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 26, 2010 7:38 PM PST up reply actions
Thanks. That's pretty cool.
...and now I'm here
Pitchers don't really have to adjust the way hitters do
Stuff is stuff. What Hill throws wouldn’t be any different whether he threw it in A ball or the Majors, so once the repertoire is down, it’s mostly about gaining stamina and developing a good relationship with your catcher.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 26, 2010 7:53 PM PST up reply actions
There's some difference.
For one, he’s added some velocity in the past year or so and is back around to the level it was when he was drafted. Plus in his column.
Secondarily, he was moving up in the system pretty quickly, and this despite the fact that he was running on an uneven schedule due to his military commitments, which may have been part of the reason he wasn’t starting before. These have now effectively been squared away. Another plus moving forward.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Jan 26, 2010 7:52 PM PST up reply actions
Nice post,
Nice to get to know about the guy in a little more detail. Sounds like Nick Blackburn basically, except Blackburn does better with walks and worse with fly balls (and therefore homeruns) which is pretty much a wash. Blackburn is a 2-3 win pitcher.
Hope he can prove that his arm can take 200 innings. The upside may not be great, but the risk seems fairly low as well.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 26, 2010 8:11 PM PST reply actions
Can we stretch out Hill, build his endurance at the major league level?
Then whoever would’ve been the fifth starter can be used in long relief, albeit pitching more innings to compensate for hill. Have Hill throw 80 pitches every five games and bring in Fister in the fifth or sixth inning.
Ehh, no real benefit to that
Might as well have him stretch out in the minors. Not being on the 40-man and all, there’s no need to force anything. He’s not that good.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 26, 2010 9:47 PM PST up reply actions
So downside that he might potentially really suck?
sure, pretty much every player has that downside
by seattlebruin on Jan 27, 2010 9:54 AM PST up reply actions
I meant his skill set
I was trying to see what it looks like when these types of players don’t work out and whether Ramirez really has any similarities to Hill.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 27, 2010 12:17 PM PST up reply actions
This seems needlessly aggressive
we have no lack of back end starters who would surely fare better
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 26, 2010 9:48 PM PST up reply actions
So what are his HOF comps?
Lefty Grove? Rube Marquard?
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
What would it take for him to miss more bats?
Improved velocity? Better curve? I realize that there are probably 965234 ways for him to accomplish this, but are there any that are much more likely then other?
Velocity would be great
Ultimately, anyone whose primary pitch is an 88mph sinker is going to allow a lot of contact.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 27, 2010 8:15 AM PST up reply actions
You mentioned that velocity starts to decline at a pretty young age
Nick Hill is turning 25 in a couple of days. An uptick in velocity would be pretty unrealistic to hope for, wouldn’t it?
Yes
The best we can hope for is that Hill is able to maintain his current velocity for more innings at a time. He’s not going to start throwing 93.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 27, 2010 9:34 AM PST up reply actions
As I said above, it already happened.
Sort of. He had a 88 mph two-seam with a four-seam around 91 around the time he was drafted. Then he was throwing in the low-to-mid-80s range for a few years. Now he’s back. The recovery for me is enough. Expecting him to add on top of that now, while not impossible, would probably not be realistic.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
by JY on Jan 27, 2010 9:34 AM PST up reply actions
That's 2009 Joel Pineiro
An 89mph sinking “fastball” that he threw 71% of the time, and was responsible for almost all of his value last year. The Angels just spent $8M per year for two years of that. Not saying Hill is worth that (or that Pineiro necessarily will be either), especially since he’s not yet going deep into games and has yet to face high level batters. But clearly it’s possible to succeed with that kind of repertoire and a good infield defense (in the NL Central, anyway). And hey, he’s making the league minimum. As long as he doesn’t lose any more velocity, I’m cautiously optimistic.
Well there's a big difference:
Joel’s a righty. Two-seamers have huge platoon splits, and Joel will get to face ~50% RHB, while Hill will only get to face ~20-25% LHB. That puts Hill at a disadvantage.
Still, the overall point remains valid.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 27, 2010 9:42 AM PST up reply actions
Incidentally, I'm looking forward to facing Joel in Safeco Field
Should be amusing
by Graham MacAree on Jan 27, 2010 9:44 AM PST up reply actions
If he loses any of the sink on his fastball it'll be a riot.
Hope Matsui gets to play OF that day.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 27, 2010 9:56 AM PST up reply actions
Not sure if this matters since I know nothing about pitching
Pineiro’s sinker is a one seam fastball
Movement's the same though
Should’ve said tailing fastballs instead of two-seamers.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 27, 2010 10:47 AM PST up reply actions
Right, forgot about that
I tend to reflexively think LH=bonus but I forget that the two-seamer / sinker has the biggest platoon split of any pitch and is something you really only want to throw to same-handed batters. (That link reminded me of this discussion Dave C had with Dave A — which also highlights a couple of other things: how much the M’s roster has changed in less than a year, and how rude a greeting the new-look M’s should give to Mr Pineiro, as Graham suggests.)
So if all Hill had was his sinker, he’d be sunk. But he has that changeup, and that’s a big deal. (The situation with curves and batter handedness seems more complex). The trouble is, he has to throw some fastballs to RH batters for the change (or curve) to be effective. So does he just try to paint the corners with those and hope he doesn’t leave one in the middle of the plate? If his command is good then he can do that without risking walks.
And he still doesn’t cost $8M a year.
So, uh…. yeah. Cautiously optimistic.
by wandergeist on Jan 27, 2010 12:12 PM PST up reply actions
Sounds like a poor man's Tommy John to me.
That would not be to bad to have in the rotation.
What would Kanekoa Texeira expected MLB FIP be?
Texeira is in some ways very similar – a guy with a high-80s FB who gets a ton of ground balls. And as much as people talk about his slider (which would make you think he’d be a righty specialist or something like Sean Green), he has pretty interesting reverse platoon splits. For his career, he’s K’d more lefties and gotten more GBs (this is balanced by a higher HR rate, however).
What worries me is that both of them give up more HRs as starters. That makes sense of course, but it also makes me wonder why we can just assume a league average rate. If it’s based purely on GB rate, then Texeira’s is better. If it’s based on HR/FB rate, isn’t that more volatile?
Overall, I think Hill’s a touch better because he’s a lefty and he’s shown better command. But I think both guys have a better chance to make it as bullpen guys, and right now, that gives the advantage to Texeira (as a Rule 5 guy).
Hill as a starter last year: 3 HR in 57.2 innings
Hill as a reliever last year: 2 HR in 40.2 innings
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 27, 2010 9:36 AM PST up reply actions
Hill in the AFL: 6 HRs in 18 innings
And remember that MiLB averages for HRs are much lower, thus his 0.5 HR/9 isn’t THAT different to the league figure of 0.7.
And I was going by his career numbers; maybe he learned something this year that helped him avoid HRs in the Southern League, but whatever it was, it sure didn’t work in Arizona. And yeah, maybe AFL stats are about as predictive as Venezuelan Parallel league stats, but it’s got to be a bit of a concern.
As a pretty strong groundballer though, wouldn't you expect him to be closer to his minor league rates last year
rather than his AFL rate? Especially given sample size, I guess I’m a little concerned but not overly so given his repertoire and MiLB track record
by seattlebruin on Jan 27, 2010 9:58 AM PST up reply actions
Or 2009 stats, I should say
I have no idea what to do with his Cal league HR rate, which was roughly double what he put up last year
by seattlebruin on Jan 27, 2010 10:01 AM PST up reply actions
And again, if strong GB tendencies are the primary factor in limiting HRs (and thus limiting MLB FIP)
aren’t you equally excited about Texeira?
Texeira’s career HR/9 is about half of Hill’s.
My understanding is that Texeira doesn't have the change to throw to lefties
He also appears to have worse command than Hill does.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 27, 2010 10:28 AM PST up reply actions
I have no understanding of any kind, but
it’s Texeira who seems to get a lot of K’s of lefties, whereas Hill is more dominant against…er, lefties. It’s like the scouting reports on these two guys have been flipped.
And he certainly has worse command, that’s absolutely true. But the question is what happens to Hill’s (or Texeira’s, of course) home run rate when they move up to MLB? It’s possible that improved command would generate a lot more early contact and perhaps keep his HR rate manageable. It’s also possible that Texeira’s sinker has more movement, resulting in lower HR rates but also Sean Green-style command issues at higher levels. I have no idea!
Realistically I think I care more about their repertoires than their numbers right now
Hill has the sinker, the curve, and BA’s best change in the system. Texeira has the sinker and a dynamite slider, but his change seems to be little more than a show-me pitch. He should be good against high-level righties, but I think he breaks down once the lefties start getting better.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 27, 2010 10:43 AM PST up reply actions
Maybe so, but I just can't figure out what he's been doing against lefties with a 'show me' change.
I mean, his repertoire sounds exactly like Sean Green’s, and Sean Green never did that against lefties. It’s just odd.
Finally, we should congratulate Hill on being tabbed as having the best change-up in the system. Prior to 2010, only 2 men had ever been designated as having the best in the system: Emiliano Fruto, who won it twice, and Cesar Jimenez, who won it three times. I guess they weren’t quite doing the same thing in 2005, but I chuckle at the fact that Fruto ‘won’ twice and King Felix never did.
Here's the thing that weird me out:
Tailing fastballs show big platoon splits. Changeups do not, despite having very similar movement.
Weirrrd.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 27, 2010 10:56 AM PST up reply actions
Usage/pitch recognition issue?
If an opposite handed batter is sitting fastball and sees what looks like one coming, they’ll swing. It’s not just the movement on the change, it’s the timing, right?
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 27, 2010 11:01 AM PST up reply actions
Yyyeah, that's weird all right.
This isn’t some glitch in, say, pitch type recognition?
One hopes this is the stamina issue Jay was alluding to higher up
if he’s losing velo on his fastball by the fourth inning it would explain the higher HR rate, and if he’s building endurance and recovering the lost speed it shouldn’t persist.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 27, 2010 10:00 AM PST up reply actions
Hill gave up 38 hits and 25 runs in 18 innings over seven starts
I’m just going to chalk that up to “it was a long season and he was working on something.” Look at Aumont’s numbers. AFL numbers can turn a guy into a baseball hypochondriac.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 27, 2010 10:03 AM PST up reply actions
Oh, they certainly can, but it's also true that I don't think Aumont could succeed in MLB *right now*
Forget the actual numbers, but don’t you think a guy projected to be ~ a league average MLB starter could hold his own in the AFL?
I would think so, but I also wouldn't be deterred by 18 innings at the end of a long season
I think I’d actually care more about how he looks in ST.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 27, 2010 10:25 AM PST up reply actions
A long season is less than 100 innings pitched?
Sorry, uh, to be honest, yes, I’d be more interested in his spring training work as well.
I’m still rooting for him.
Oh, as an aside, there’s been a lot of prospect talk around here recently… if Nick Hill is a 4-4.5 FIP starter this coming season, do you think he should’ve been in the top 10 (or top 5) M’s ‘spects given the fact that he’s close to MLB ready?
A long season for a guy who's still working on his endurance
I would probably put him in the top 10, yes, but I’m not a prospect guy, and I like safety over upside.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 27, 2010 10:44 AM PST up reply actions
In the area of "slight annoyances," stupid BB-R lists him only as "Nicholas Hill"
it took me a while of failing to search on “Nick Hill” to realize this
They also frequently list players by first name even when they go by their middle name.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/

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