Joel Pineiro ----> Angels
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Two year, 16 million dollar contract. While Pineiro had a solid season last year, his previous three were slightly above replacement level. I'm no expert but it didn't look like he had a change in stuff. Bad signing by the Angels? I'd say probably even for both sides. Anyhow, here's to his failure. May he lose every game against the Mariners - I guess against the Mariners was not necessary.
Graham's note: Edited to make the link work!
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I get that
But his last season seems to be a very large outlier relative to his previous three seasons. At one point, Silva was goodish.
At what point was Silva much more than average
besides his “very large outlier” in 2005. They are very similar in a way. I like the analogy.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 20, 2010 9:03 PM PST up reply actions
Well it's a very bad analogy because Pineiro learned a new pitch and his GB rate went through the roof
Silva was never in the 60% range
Same skill set. Doesn't matter when he learns his pitch. He pitched like a good Carlos Silva last year.
I bet you $100 that Pineiro doesn’t get 60% GB last year also.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 20, 2010 9:23 PM PST up reply actions
Good Carlos Silva (If such a thing ever existed) never ran a tRA within a run of what Pineiro did
Saying they have the same skill set is like saying Dave Kingman and Harmon Killebrew are were basically the same player
If you use xFIP they look pretty similar
I don’t believe Pineiro’s HR/FB should be as low as it was last year. I haven’t gone through why Silva’s 2005 tRA was so much higher than Pineiro’s last year. I love tRA as much as the next guy but sometimes its tough to deconstruct what it doesn’t like about a guy.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 20, 2010 9:45 PM PST up reply actions
If you're worried about him regressing, I'd say his walk rate is worth worrying about a lot more than the GB%.
I have fears of a Fausto Carmona blow-up where he can’t find the strike zone anymore. But at the same time, for a deal like this, I’d make that gamble. The sinker looks legit.
Well, obviously Pineiro's never really had a problem finding the strike zone.
But a 3.1% BB% is ridiculous. That should come up.
Still, I wanted him.
Yeah, he got a bit lucky in terms of umpire error last year
His overall Zone% was basically the same as in years past. Because he allowed more contact, you’d expect his BB% to be lower than it has in the past, but not as low as it was last year. He definitely got a bit lucky in that respect.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 21, 2010 8:16 AM PST up reply actions
60% is pretty elite
Brandon Webb and Derek Lowe barely get 60%
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 20, 2010 9:46 PM PST up reply actions
Absolutely.
I’d expect regression. I just wouldn’t expect him to regress all the way back to the 45% range where he was before he got the Duncan treatment.
Silva was never really the groundball machine he was billed as. Even in Minnesota he was just a little above average at getting the ball on the ground.
I'm still confused as to what Silva was supposedly good at
by seattlebruin on Jan 21, 2010 12:21 AM PST up reply actions
I totally believe you.
There is no way that you couldve meant to post that Silva was only good at eating.
Last year is as good as he could possibly do
I believe the reason his walk rate was so low is because he induced so much contact early in the count
52.5% of balls in the strike zone helps keep the walk rate down, too.
He threw a lot of balls in the zone, people didn’t swing at them often because he’s a GBing machine, but they almost always make contact when they do decide to swing and those went into the ground mostly.
That’s the story, no reason to believe much different will happen this year. It’s not like he had ridiculous control, in fact his ball-in-zone % was below his career rate. His low walks are almost completely due to the induced contact. I fully expect him to be a 2.5-3 win pitcher next season given he throws 180+ pitches.
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Innings, not pitches.
Hey everyone, Follow me on Twitter!, check out My Baseball Blog, and Last.fm me!
...And he's still easily a 2.5-3 win pitcher.
I don’t really believe he’ll walk more, either, at least not substantially. Maybe 4% BB rate?
Hey everyone, Follow me on Twitter!, check out My Baseball Blog, and Last.fm me!
And
Silva actually put together back to back good seasons. Pineiro has had one really good season preceded by 3 really bad ones. Better be one helluva good pitch.
Oh, sorry, I misread
I thought you were implying that he would turn out like Silva.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 21, 2010 8:29 AM PST up reply actions
Nope
That would be crazy. Almost as crazy as thinking Silva was a strike-throwing groundballer when we signed him.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 21, 2010 9:46 AM PST up reply actions
As an Angel fan, I was initially semi-skeptical...
…but this article helped me get a little more excited about the signing:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/free-agent-joel-pineiro
As noted in the comments, that new pitch in 2009 is generally mis-identified as a two-seam fastball, but is actually a one-seam sinker, which helps explain the increase in his average 48% ground ball rate to a whopping nearly 61% last year.
Bottom line: he’s unlikely to repeat that 3.49 ERA in 2010. But he’s also not the same crappy pitcher from 2008 and the five awful years before that.
Time to see what Wood's got!
Yes
And the real key there is the frequency with which he threw those pitches. He started throwing his sinker 60% of the time, and his fastball only 10%. Huge difference in pitch selection, huge difference in results. I gotta believe he’s going to carry some of that success forward.
by nathaniel dawson on Jan 21, 2010 12:43 PM PST up reply actions
Darn.
I was hoping the M’s would sign him if they couldn’t get Sheets.
Well this blows
If we don’t land Sheets, there aren’t a whole lot of pitchers out there who represent much of an upgrade. Bedard, Washburn…..??
I think once the Cardinals sort out their budget he's headed back to STL
If he didn’t want to return to St. Louis he probably would have gone elsewhere by now because he has real value as a reliever
No, this is awesome.
No Joel!!!! Celebrate!
by SethGrandpa on Jan 20, 2010 10:55 PM PST up reply actions
The 3 seasons prior to 2009 Pinero posted a WAR below 1.
So the guy had one good year in the NL. Color me not afraid.
by SethGrandpa on Jan 20, 2010 11:13 PM PST up reply actions
There's not a whole lot of evidence that last year's results were luck-based though
And that is the most recent data we have for him. He won’t be as good as he was but it’s really unlikely he returns to being a 1 win pitcher.
No, I do. I don't always agree with every statistical detail, that's all.
Signs may point to his last season being legit, but I’m still skeptical. I rep statistical analysis for the most part, but stats HAVE been wrong before. They don’t hold 100% infallibility. I’ve watched the guy pitch and pitch poorly before. Until he proves to me that he can be an above average AL pitcher, I’m gonna have my doubts.
by SethGrandpa on Jan 20, 2010 11:30 PM PST up reply actions
He's not that same guy though
It a scouting thing (new pitch) as much as it is statistical. Not that it matters any but I’ve probably watch him pitch more than anyone who comments on the site.If it came down to that wouldn’t you go by the person who’s watched him pitch recently as well as him time in Seattle?
Not all new pitches are bullshit
Especially if the batted ball data backs up that the alleged new pitch is actually really good.
And if you wait for it to be a sure thing, then the price goes up.
Pineiro would have been nice.
To be fair,
the Dolphin was a new pitch. It just wasn’t good.
All I am saying is that the reaction this is really annoying because people are letting their emotions cloud their judgment
There’s hard scouting and statistical evidence that Pineiro has turn the ship around and should be a solid pitcher going forward.
This sucks, the best available pitcher just went to our direct competitor at a reasonable price. The win or two this costs us could be the difference between going to the playoffs or not.
I didn't want him here for purely emotional reasons but I don't want him in Anaheim for purely practical reasons
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 20, 2010 11:58 PM PST up reply actions
I was just throwing out another example
I didn’t say the Dolphin was a crock or that it wasn’t somewhat effective.
There is a real possibility that Joel went all Jamie Moyer and figured out how to be effective late in his career.
The Angels are basically paying him for 4 WAR over the next two years. There is a good chance that he provides that and then some. There is also a non-zero chance that his GB rate falls back much closer to his career norms and that he turns into Carlos Silva.
Can anyone point to how sustainable a mid-career change in GB rate is?
I felt this way until most of the better options than Pineiro went off the market
At that point I was totally cool with him coming back here.
I loved him a lot and then I hated him because he was a whiny little talking pubic bush
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 21, 2010 12:11 AM PST up reply actions 5 recs
He had a sexy accent
According to a couple of women I know that didn’t watch him pitch and only heard him in radio ads or the occasional interview.
So there’s that.
by wandergeist on Jan 21, 2010 10:05 AM PST up reply actions
I think Joel Piñero is a bag full of dildos.
by Kirk on Jan 20, 2010 10:24 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
Listen to this man, for he is wise.
Seriously, even if he’s made any improvement in the NL, I think have flashbacks of his inconsistency in 2006. I hope the M’s can shell him when he comes back here.
2009 Safeco Field Record: 6-0 ; Overall Safeco Field Record: 10-4
2006 was four years ago and while the NL is weaker than the AL it's not as though it's the International League
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 20, 2010 11:57 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, but I think that the adjustment required has become a bit overstated by some.
One should definitely view his numbers with the proper amount of skepticism, but it’s still unwise to throw last season’s results out the window because they came in the NL.
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 21, 2010 12:19 AM PST up reply actions
Is it possible to create ALEs?
American League Equivalencies?
Depending on who you are
A bag full of dildos could be a marvelous find…
~I once gave Jose Canseco $15. ~
by section331 on Jan 21, 2010 11:12 AM PST up reply actions 5 recs
I have actually seen a bag full of dildos before
It is intimidating
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 21, 2010 12:54 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Quick look at UZR, neither the Cards infield or the Angels last year look outstanding.
The Angels outfield looks terrible defensively, who are the Angels running out there for 3B next year?
Izturis or Wood is what I remember hearing.
Wood most likely.
by Mariner John on Jan 20, 2010 10:41 PM PST up reply actions
???
Between Figgins, Izturis, Aybar, Kendrick and Morales, the Angels infield was worth over 35 runs according to UZR. That’s pretty damn good. A quick check through the other teams tells me the Angels were easily among the top 3 or 4 defensive infields last year.
~Till the Halo burns out...
Though they are losing Figgins and replacing him with Wood
Which, depending on Wood’s performance at 3B, may be a significant decrease at that position.
I was looking at their infield last season and ignoring Figgins' contribution. Since we own him now.
Thanks.
Even ignoring Figgins that's still +18.
And just FYI, word from scouts is that Wood projects at 5>x>10. Add in some improvement from what is still a pretty young group, and I wouldn’t expect us to fall too far.
~Till the Halo burns out...
Tell that to Chone Figgins.
He was fucking horrible in 2007, became good in 2008 and turned near-godly in 2009.
~Till the Halo burns out...
So the A's will have Wood, Izturis, Aybar, Kendrick and Morales out standing in their field?
Fucking awesome, thanks.
No, observation.
He was awful in 2007. Balls constantly went under or over his glove, his throws were regularly bouncing off the dirt in front of first base. The only reason he didn’t have twice as many errors is that Kotchman is amazing with glovework.
2008 he improved significantly, and in 2009 he became a vacuum cleaner at the hot corner. I know some of you will scoff, but it’s the truth. I watched damn near every game he played for the last three years, and he is not even close to the same guy he was then. Take that however you please.
~Till the Halo burns out...
I don't doubt that he showed improvement in the areas you describe
but that’s much different than actual defensive ability. How many balls did he get to in 2008 that he didn’t in 2007? Perhaps those balls that went over his glove instead made their way into left or those throws that bounced in front of first were never made. It’s also possible that he lost little if any range while gaining polish, but I’m inclined to believe the more likely explanation.
by Aaron Campeau on Jan 21, 2010 12:30 AM PST up reply actions
*shrug*
I’m telling you that plays he simply did not make in 2007 got made in 2009. Bad throws, while still an unfortunate tendency, became much rarer. Figgins got better as a third baseman, visibly, measurably, significantly over a three year period. Much the way people here could see the difference as Betancourt became worse, people at HH could see the difference as Figgins became better.
Improvements in defense are possible, my guess would be especially at the corners, where the challenge is less range than reaction time and recognizing where the ball is going off the bat. Glove work is still important at 2nd and SS though, and Aybar and Kendrick especially have room to improve in that area.
~Till the Halo burns out...
I take he's on our team now, and thanks for the info on his progression that's really something to look forward to next year.
Wood. New 3B for the Angels. Thanks.
by Kermit. on Jan 21, 2010 12:35 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Barry Bonds is evidence that hitters peak at 39
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 21, 2010 1:18 AM PST up reply actions 5 recs
Chone was not fucking horrible in 2007 nor near-godly in 2009
UZR is not a direct stat. It does not tell you exactly how many outs he made more than average. It uses a ton of factors to try to infer Chone’s value. This makes it very prone to flukes and needs large sample sizes to settle down.
Think of it this way, you need three years of UZR to be as accurate as one year of offensive stats like wOBA. Basically looking at a one year UZR is like saying a player hit well in the first two months of the season.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 21, 2010 1:44 AM PST up reply actions
I should have said
Chone probably was not fucking horrible in 2007 nor near-godly in 2009.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 21, 2010 1:45 AM PST up reply actions
As I pointed out above, I didn't base my conclusions on UZR, but rather my own observation.
That UZR seems to agree with me is, as you correctly point out, not really an indication of anything.
~Till the Halo burns out...
He played the position in parts of 2003, 2004, and 2005.
He wasn’t a regular at the position, and a utility player being hurt defensively by time spent playing in vastly different defensive positions isn’t necessarily a horrible argument. However, I don’t think we can really say he was “new” at it.
~Till the Halo burns out...
So... Wood is your new 3B for the Angels.
What are your thoughts on that? Excited, apprehensive, indifferent? Any positive or negative impact on the infield defense, and how that might affect Piniero? Assuming Piniero maintains that unusually high GB rate, speaking of which, what are your thoughts on that subject?
Honestly, I think Wood will be a pretty good defender.
I’m not sure our defense will suffer as much from the loss of Figgins as much as some assume. I’m excited about Wood in general, though. I like him a lot more than any projection is going to tell you I should.
I’m up in the air on Piniero being able to keep up his new shiny GB rate. I realize he has a new pitch, but I worry about anyone with one season showing a distinct difference from the rest of his track record, especially at 30. There are obviously health questions as well. Still, if he can keep it up, and most importantly, not walk people, there’s no reason he can’t put up Chien Ming Wang (2005-2008) type numbers for the next two seasons.
I’m a lot higher on Wood than Piniero, but I think our infield might be able to compensate for his move to the AL if he really is a whole new pitcher.
~Till the Halo burns out...
I was also looking at more than one years worth of UZR.
My comment didn’t reflect my complete thought process. But thanks for answering the question?
So, Piniero moves from the Cards to the M's sworn enemy.
Not a good day then I suppose.
Some things can never be forgiven.
I do not care how many rational reasons there are for signing Joel Pineiro. If I had to watch him go into the tank twice in his career I am pretty sure jail time would be in my future.
I'd aid and abet
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 21, 2010 8:41 AM PST up reply actions
I think he's a Mariners fan
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 21, 2010 12:29 PM PST up reply actions
We've made the playoffs before.
It ended less than ideally.
by Mariner John on Jan 21, 2010 12:53 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah I get it. I guess I didn't really just hate Rhodes anymore.
Bullpen guys blow it in spectacular fashion every once in a while. Its not like I didn’t want him out there compared to the other people who were there or something. I guess it was 10 yrs ago and I remember him more for his pretty amazing regular seasons.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 21, 2010 1:35 PM PST up reply actions
It's a pretty good deal for them
and I’m a little surprised the Mets didn’t outbid them unless there’s a third year hidden in the deal.
So he’s got a killer new sinker, and he’s got pinpoint control of it. Fine. But a 1.14BB rate, 0.46HR rate, and 60%GB rate all require some adjustment before you project him. Particularly if he’s moving to the AL.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 21, 2010 8:50 AM PST reply actions
This worries me a bit
Pineiro is definitely a different pitcher than he was when he was with the M’s. His “fastball” (as it is classified, anyway) was getting far more GB outs — more than any other pitcher in baseball, and it wasn’t even close — and he was throwing it far more. That could be a fluke (some of it certainly is) but there’s a whole year of data that is radically different from the data that accumulated while he was with the M’s. And it’s the most recent data. We can’t just throw an entire year into the “fluke” category. Whatever memories we might have are obsolete, and we shouldn’t rely on them.
Nevertheless, it is just one year. Signing Pineiro is a gamble — that his new pitching ability is real, that it translates to the AL, and that he can maintain it without the help of Dave Duncan. So it’s a risk, but it’s a risk with a decent upside. The Angels aren’t a stupid organization (alas) and they have never seemed to suffer from poor coaching with their pitchers (they made Washburn and the Weavers look pretty good). There’s a good chance they’ll get their money’s worth on this deal. The Angels may be weaker with Pineiro this year than they were with Lackey last year, but not by as much as we might like to think.
I wasn’t really enthusiastic about the M’s signing Pineiro, but I certainly didn’t want the Angels to do so. He may be a risk, and not one I’d want my team betting on, but I’m not looking forward to betting against him either.
I actually find this intriguing.
Depending on if Joel Pinero’s reinvention is indeed for real, he could be annoying enough to rain in on our parade or hilarious enough to be a disaster to the Angels. I’ll be keeping an eye on him, that’s for sure.
We'll have no choice but to pay attention
as he’ll be in our collective grill 8-12 times the next two seasons.
Hope he chokes. Badly.
A few observations on Joel Pineiro using B-R
He was able to go 0-1 on 451 of 865 batters faced, and while I don’t know how many of those were swinging and all that, I do know that 125 more made contact on the first pitch for a .352/.351/.540 line. I don’t know how repeatable that’s going to be, but I’m leaning toward not very. Carlos Silva had comparable first pitch strike (or batted ball) numbers in ‘05 (his 9BB year), but not quite as good. Halladay also had very similar numbers last year, but he’s Halladay.
20 of Joel’s 105 strikeouts came against pitchers, who as a group account for 7.4% of his batters faced and put up a .228 OPS. Everyone else put up a .706 OPS. Also, he saw more RHB than lefties, who hit him a bit better. I expect that in the AL you can pretty much plug in a competent LH bat for every pitcher Joel faced.
Joel still sucks at the beginning of games. Lead off batters had a .775 OPS against him, probably on account of speed, and all hitters compiled a .775 and .804 OPS against him in the 1st and 2nd innings, respectively. 9 of his 27 walks came in the first inning. In his first 25 pitches opponents posted a .862 OPS and drew 14 walks. He’s got a new pitch but he’s not a new pitcher.
Not much to conclude beyond the obvious. It seems like his success was largely linked to his first pitch strike rate which doesn’t seem highly sustainable, particularly in a DH league. One other item which I didn’t list yet is the incredibly low SLG on ground balls that batters posted against him. I don’t know what the expected rate is, but of the 428 grounders that stayed fair, 95 went for hits and only six wound up as doubles. I don’t have an idea of what the average XBH% is on grounders, but this seems extraordinarily low.
Welcome back to the ALW Pineiro, I hope you are now in a better position to crush the hopes and dreams of the Angel fanbase than you were three years ago.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 21, 2010 12:26 PM PST reply actions
It always seemed to me that we care so much about BABIP
that we should somehow look at SLGBIP too. I’m guessing this stat is completely useless since I’ve never seen it but it seems like a logical idea.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 21, 2010 1:39 PM PST up reply actions
Love Allen's graphs
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 21, 2010 12:41 PM PST up reply actions
Let
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
Well fuck it then.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
by Faux on Jan 21, 2010 1:12 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Did that one just die with a whimper?
Puff, and it was gone?
Like getting ready to go and she pulls out a condom.
It just went limp and wasn’t coming back.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

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