On Projecting Franklin Gutierrez
This has come up in a couple different venues so I figured I would provide a handy one-stop thread.
It should come as no surprise that I am a big fan of Franklin Gutierrez. I loved the idea of Gutierrez when we traded for him and it took all the way to his first ever at bat as a Mariner for me to confirm that I was going to be rooting for this particular player. I would like to think he appreciated my fanhood and responded with his superb season in 2009. What might be in store for 2010 though?
Projecting Franklin Gutierrez's offensive level is not much of a debate. Last year he had a 102 wOBA+ by StatCorner and a 108 wRC+ (roughly the same stat) by FanGraphs. For 2010, Bill James and fans at large project him for a 106 wRC+, Marcel at 103 and CHONE at 100. Based on his batted ball profile in 2009 and his past success rates, I would project his 2010 wOBA+ to be around 104. It's not a very large spread and basically immaterial to our overall assessment.
Where the projections start to diverge is on two factors, defense and playing time. Playing time is easier to discuss. Gutierrez received 301 plate appearances (PA) in 2007 and 440 in 2008. That was not due to injury, but because he was still breaking into a full time role with the Indians. A computer projection is going to see those low PA totals and count that against Gutierrez going forward. I disagree. Franklin is a full time player now and given that he has no serious injury history, should be expected to play a full season.
Now that does not mean we should project him to repeat 629 PAs again. We do need to factor in some injury risk. The commonly accepted figure for position players is to give them 85% of a full season. Even for a healthy player, you need to account for freak injuries, day to day ills and the chance for a chronic injury developing. That's about 138 games and about 550 PAs. CHONE, still accounting for the lower 2007 and 2008 totals, has Gutierrez at just 511 PAs.
Onto defense. It's tricky to project, being so volatile. Again, the standard rule of thumb is to have three full years of defensive data before you can become somewhat comfortable with establishing a range of performance for the player. We do not yet have three full years for Gutierrez, but we're getting close. Since we have well established adjustments between the outfield positions, we can count Gutierrez's time in right field into our evaluation, just making sure to penalize him 10 runs per 150 games in order to get his projected CF numbers. Even with that penalty, Franklin shines.
Over the last three years, Gutierrez has 179 defensive games logged in center field with a total UZR of 31.8 and 167 defensive games logged in the corner outfield with a total UZR of 27.9. We need to take 11.1 runs off that figure for the CF transition, but after the adjustment we have 346 defensive games in the outfield with a total UZR of 48.6 for a UZR/150 of 21. Simply put, Franklin Gutierrez has been an incredible outfielder for some time now. It's not just his 2009 season, as remarkable as it was, that boosts his numbers. It's also not just UZR. John Dewan's +/- rating has Gutierrez at +23 in CF and +30 in the corners leading to a +42 total for 2007-9.
CHONE has him projected for just +6 runs in center field next year. I get that you want to be pessimistic and conservative when it comes to defense, but there's a point where you aren't being conservative anymore, but rather just hesitant. Which is fine if that's what you want and most times I agree to err on the side of caution, but I am going to disagree with CHONE in this particular case. Even if you throw in enough league average innings to get Gutierrez up to three years worth of fielding data, his UZR/150 drops only to 16.2. Frankly, I wouldn't be remiss to peg Franklin as a +10 < x < +20 glove in center.
That's not just based off his UZR or +/-. Just go out to the park sometime and watch Gutierrez play. Focus on him. I'm not sure there's a ding in his game. His range in phenomenal, his instincts great, his hands sure, his timing (see image) solid. The scouting reports I've read back this up as well. They love him and Andruw Jones territory is not out of the question.
Now, I'm not that confident, so personally, I knock it down to +6 < x < +16. And that sums up the difference between CHONE and myself. CHONE sees Franklin as an average hitter, +6 with the glove, +2.2 for playing CF and +17 for playing time adding up to 2.5 WAR. I have Gutierrez as about five runs above average with the bat, +11 with the glove, +2.4 for CF and +19 for playing time, worth about 3.75 wins. It's a little less than I have been listing him at because no matter how much evidence I accumulate, I have a hard time putting him at that +15 glove mark. Plus I'd rather short change him a few runs than further risk observer bias.
The takeaway message is that you shouldn't dogmatically accept projections, no matter who they are from. Maybe you read through all of this and decided that, no, you still prefer CHONE's figures. That's fine. The important thing is that you consider the differing viewpoints and not blindly parrot numbers back. I think there's a legitimate case that automated projection systems are going to underrate Gutierrez for 2010. Also, he might be the best defensive player in baseball.
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Fun little throwaway point:
Gutierrez tied for second in the AL in sac bunts last year, with 13. Knock him down to a more normal, I dunno, 3, and his wOBA improves by five points.
Not necessarily
But Gutierrez won’t be in the two-hole this year, and probably will be closer to the heart of the order.
by wandergeist on Jan 18, 2010 12:35 PM PST up reply actions
I doubt that Gutierrez repeats at that level
Especially if the offense improves, which it almost certainly will. Plus, Guti did almost all of his bunting batting #2 and #9, which he won’t be doing.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 18, 2010 12:35 PM PST up reply actions
I was thinking more on a team level.
As you guys have been projecting team offense, is there a bump in store because Wak may / may not bunt less thanks to having a slightly more competent offense?
That would be one small bump
But, yeah, couldn’t hurt. We led the AL in bunts a year ago.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 18, 2010 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
This year
We have a different FO from last year?
by wandergeist on Jan 18, 2010 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
No, but rather because they almost assuredly looked at strategy from last year to adjust.
From the bunt stats that Jeff put up, they may have done that in May last year.
Ah, ok
And yeah, I’d say “this FO” doesn’t wait for the end of the season to let stats influence strategy.
Though with Ichiro!Figgins at the top of the order, you may see more bunt hits than you might expect.
by wandergeist on Jan 18, 2010 12:56 PM PST up reply actions
I may be wrong, but bunt hits are generally the result of player choice and not based on mandate passed down from the manager.
If Ichiro decides his best chance to get on base is by laying one down, that’s fine. I just don’t want outs thrown away.
It also seemed like we bunted a lot less after April/May
so it may have just been an initial strategy that he phased out, but I don’t have numbers on this.
Based solely on feel, I think you are right.
I still got the impression the team was still bunting at higher-than-average rate after that, just not at the same furious rate.
Sac bunts by month:
11
18
8
7
5
7
Fuckin May. Christ.
Guti did most of his bunting in the first two months, before anyone realized he was a good hitter.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 18, 2010 12:44 PM PST up reply actions
I eliminate sac bunts from consideration when I calculate wOBA.
But yes, his other versions of it will improve.
The best thing about Gutierrez
Was all those balls hit into center where, on TV, you’d see the ball sailing towards the wall with no players on the screen, just a fast-moving white dot against a field of green; and, conditioned by M’s outfields of years past, you’d be thinking fuck, that’s going for extra bases. Then this little figure would appear from the bottom or side of the frame, taking long effortless strides that, like a giraffe, totally trick your eye into underestimating the speed he’s going… until you realized, holy crap, the ball was still in the air and he was overtaking it. And the ball would arc and fall and the figure would unfold his glove and the two would meet with Dave Niehaus screaming into your ear about the mortality of airborne objects and another out in the books and another fantastic catch by the Mariner outfield.
What kind of freaked me out was that a couple of times he overran those balls and had to make a last-second adjustment to catch them. Even Franklin Gutierrez underestimates how fast Franklin Gutierrez is.
by wandergeist on Jan 18, 2010 12:33 PM PST reply actions 7 recs
And that was with a knee injury that was apparently bothering him all season!
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 18, 2010 12:34 PM PST up reply actions
I suspect they wouldn't be as useful for his purposes
As they might be for yours.
by wandergeist on Jan 18, 2010 12:42 PM PST up reply actions
He looks a lot
like this when running down those balls.
by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Jan 18, 2010 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
I still remember the sick catch he made in San Diego on Chase Headley
2-0 game, Padres threatening and Headley hits a bullet into the RCF gap with Franklin shading him to left. Looks like a sure double, maybe triple. Guti just took off at the crack of the bat, ran the perfect route, and somehow got there and even had to slow down. He must have covered the entire LCF-RCF on a fast sinking liner. Truly incredible to watch
That was also the game he hit a 430 foot bomb off of Kevin Correia
by seattlebruin on Jan 18, 2010 1:39 PM PST up reply actions
He's the best defensive center fielder by far and
his defensive value is so large that he is the best player on the team since his bat is decent as well.
by brinkislikevickheabusesdawgs on Jan 18, 2010 12:34 PM PST reply actions
He's probably not the most valuable player on the team, though he is one of the better ones
by seattlebruin on Jan 18, 2010 1:40 PM PST up reply actions
I think he meant position players
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 18, 2010 2:20 PM PST up reply actions
Yes position players.
My Mariner insider said based on the way they evaluate players Guti is better than Ichiro.
by brinkislikevickheabusesdawgs on Jan 18, 2010 2:44 PM PST up reply actions
No, based on the way the team evaluates players, Guti performed better than Ichiro did last year
There’s an important difference.
by Graham MacAree on Jan 18, 2010 2:55 PM PST up reply actions
What about his power?
The Fans (at Fangraphs) and Chone seem to project it holding steady with last year; Bill James (who always seems to give a bonus to younger players) is the only one projecting an increase. But he is (or soon will be) 27, around the age when many hitters develop their power. Last year his GB:FB ratio was crazy high for him, even if you subtract out the bunts. I’m not an expert at reading / extrapolating batted-ball numbers, but assuming he’s not bunting like he was last year and is in more of a position to swing away (especially with men on base ahead of him), might we see more XBH from him? Or is that too much hope balanced atop too little evidence?
He definitely has more power upside than, say, Jose Lopez
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 18, 2010 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
Well...uh,
Yeah.
(Though in Lopez’ defense — sort of — he has very inconsistent BABIP, and his HRs are all at the LF foul pole. So if he happens to have a good year for FB BABIP and he gets lucky with the stadiums he’s in when that happens, he could have as good a SLG as last year or even more. Unfortunately for him, his home stadium is not one of those stadiums and he’s in it half the time. He really would be so much more valuable elsewhere… )
by wandergeist on Jan 18, 2010 12:53 PM PST up reply actions
Why do you think this?
Because his longest homers have been much, much deeper than the typical Loafie shot?
by seattlebruin on Jan 18, 2010 1:40 PM PST up reply actions
Bingo
Because of his strength, his power ceiling is higher than Lopez’s.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 18, 2010 1:48 PM PST up reply actions
I never want to project players to change their approach.
It’s certainly possible though.
Sac bunts by player
Gutierrez 13
Cedeno 9
Batter Nine You Sucki 8
Chavez 5
Johnson, Langerhans, Lopez 3
Suzuki, Wilson, Wilson 2
Seven others 1
Total 56
Batter Nine You Sucki
This still makes me laugh. I’m almost sorry he’s no longer on the team so we have so little cause to use it. Almost.
(Did the Royals fans pick it up? I never go over to those blogs, it’s too depressing and too much of a Bavasi flashback)
by wandergeist on Jan 18, 2010 12:58 PM PST up reply actions
I think Matthew makes a good point about projection systems
Chone is a very good projection system however if you looked at the guts of it, it is still fairly simple. Even the guy who made it has referred to it as a smarter Marcel (paraphrased and from memory). There isn’t any magic in it and all it can see is the number the player has produced in the past. If you have good reasons and inside information to back up your claims, I think it is perfectly acceptable to say “I don’t believe it. I think he will do…” but you just have to be careful that you aren’t becoming bias to players you want to do well and ignoring their downside. I think the above post is a really good example of how we can be smarter than a projection system for some players.
CHONE also uses minor league stats (including defense)
And I’m pretty sure it factors in the fans scouting report as well for defensive projections. I’m sure it also regresses batting components individually, as well as custom aging curves (or at least by position). Yes, it can only work with what the player has done so far, but calling it a smart Marcel’s is a bit misleading.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 18, 2010 2:05 PM PST up reply actions
I didn't think it used the fans scouting reports
I was trying to paraphase something I remember (but can’t find) Rally saying on Tango’s blog when I used the term “smart Marcel”. Using minor league stats probably helps it the most.
I agree, CHONE is a pretty advanced and complete projection system but there isn’t any magic to it. Most of it is common sense however I don’t want to belittle it at all. It takes a lot of work to make a projection system that good.
My main point is that CHONE is a more sophisticated version of Marcels which is pretty straightforward to understand. Mostly just regression + aging curves. A system like PECOTA which uses past players to build projections is much more complex to understand. It is easier to understand where CHONE’s projections come from and spot faults in its logic.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 18, 2010 2:21 PM PST up reply actions
+27 Center Fielder all the way!
We simply have not yet had a large enough sample of time in which to truly appreciate his greatness! :D
(Realistically, I think he should be projected as a +10 < x < +20 CF).
I know I just wanted to clear up my last comment so people don't completely hate me.
by brinkislikevickheabusesdawgs on Jan 18, 2010 5:35 PM PST reply actions
That's fine.
Thanks for keeping it civil. It’s always good to have people from different backgrounds engage in debate.
I look forward to hopefully agreeing with you all in the future! GO M's
by brinkislikevickheabusesdawgs on Jan 18, 2010 5:39 PM PST reply actions
You'll find it useful to reply to the particular comment you're responding to.
That and people will yell at you less.
I meant to but since its at the bottom of the thread
I accidentally forgot to hit the reply button.
by brinkislikevickheabusesdawgs on Jan 18, 2010 5:45 PM PST up reply actions

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