Michael Saunders
In 46 games at the major league level last year, Michael Saunders didn't just fail to impress - he bombed. He hit a less-than-torrid .221, drew 6 walks against 40 strikeouts (that's 31% of at-bats ending in punchouts, for those keeping track), and flashed roughly zero power. His ISO last year was a paltry 0.056, which is beaten quite handily by Willie Bloomquist's career rate. The stolen homer in his first game would have helped, but while that was a nice excuse for his flashing nothing in the way of results for the first couple of weeks, 120something plate appearances later he still didn't have a home run for his troubles. The only real skill he displayed was being a phenomenally good drag bunter, with six bunt hits in his short stint with the big club. If not for the bunts, his totals for 2009 would have read .182/.223/.296 which... yeah that's not good.
So that's almost all of the the bad about Michael Saunders. The rest of the bad is that he seems to get hurt a lot, which mitigates some of his poor performance with the big club (he was fairly banged up by the end of the season, hence hamstrung Bill Hall in left). While I'm not totally willing to throw out his performance, my read on his time in Seattle is that he faced a glut of same-handed starters in a row, then topped off his first week in the majors by facing off against Roy Halladay. Sometime shortly thereafter, he picked up a minor injury. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm not going to give up on a 22-year old lefty outfield prospect over that, especially not one with the tools Saunders possesses and results that he's put up in the minors. So while keeping his discouraging performance with the big club in our minds, let's not over-weigh it against all of the good.
And there really are a lot of good things to say about Michael Saunders too. He's been featured in BA's top 30 lists for the M's lists since the end of 2006, the year he made his full debut, and has been rising ever since. He ranked as the #2 guy in our system last year per BA, and I guarantee you that they'd like a do-over on putting Halman ahead of him. He entered the season as a very good outfield prospect, and if his stint with the Mariners hurt his stock, his time with the Rainiers cancelled that out and then some. In a touch less than 300 plate appearances as a 22 year old in Tacoma, Michael Saunders accomplished the following despite missing time to injury:
- Hit thirteen home runs en route to a .310/.378/.544 line, an improvement of .114 OPS points on his 2008 season.
- Cut his strikeout rate by 41% from 28.6% in 2008 to 17.0% in 2009.
- Swung more often but missed the ball less: Contact rate went from 70% to almost 80%.
- Despite the above, made a slight improvement to walk rate, implying an improvement in his pitch-recognition ability.
- Continued to be an above-average defender at each outfield position despite labrum surgery to his throwing arm.
I'd rate that as a pretty good year, myself, especially as a 22 year old who began it with barely 100 AAA plate appearances to his name. Simply looking at the stats gives you the picture of a very good prospect, one perhaps on the cusp of being a quality starter in the majors. But looking at stats alone isn't always a great idea, and we have a good set of reports of Saunders in the minors to draw on. From the time he's been drafted, Saunders has been drooled over for his athleticism. He's fast enough to be a centre fielder, could hit 90 on the gun before his surgery, has fairly good hands, and can hit for both power and average. The major knocks on him were all to do with experience: his defensive positioning and route-running needed work, and he had trouble recognising breaking balls. It's interesting to track his reports year by year and seeing the flaws start falling off. His defence turned from a worry to a plus within a couple of years, and while discipline was an issue as early as the beginning of the season, his time in Tacoma will have eased concerns there as well. Michael Saunders is the kind of guy who more or less everyone thinks will turn into an average-slightly above bat with a good glove in the corner. It's an open question to whether he can play centre as he fills out, but we're still looking at a 2-3 win player under club control here.
Simply put, Saunders is a very good prospect. The question is whether or not he's major league ready now or whether he could use more seasoning in the minors. If he truly has nothing to learn in Tacoma, if keeping him in the minors will stunt his development, there's a very strong argument to be made for installing him as our starting left fielder for 2010. However, if it would be beneficial to give him more AAA reps, there's not a very good reason for him to be in the bigs with our roster as constructed simply because it's not immediately clear that he'd be better overall than Ryan Langerhans (he wins with the bat but loses handily with the glove). You'd be giving up service time and development time for a marginal/non-existent upgrade.
Gun to my head, I'd put Saunders as a 1-1.5 WAR player right now, maybe a couple of runs better than what I'd expect out of Langerhans/Langerhans's putative platoon buddy in left. Tacoma seems the best place to put him for at least the first couple of months until we get a clearer picture of what's going on, but I'd expect to see him get significant playing time as the year goes on. He might not be ready quite yet, and nobody thinks he'll be a star, but do make sure you don't fall into the trap of undervaluing him: his value as a prospect really isn't too far off where Adam Jones was at the end of 2007. And we loved him, remember?
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I didn't know he is only 22.
He is going to be good. Watching him play last year told me at least one thing and that is that he is really, really fast. Speed is my favorite thing about a player because you can at least tell whether or not a player is a good pure athlete by how fast they are. I think that he will do just fine, if not better, in the bigs, he just needs to mature.
You know who else is 23?
Felix Hernandez.
2009 Safeco Field Record: 6-0 ; Overall Safeco Field Record: 10-4
You know who wore that number?
Michael Jordan. THINK ABOUT IT.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 17, 2010 10:26 PM PST up reply actions 5 recs
Good comment
I like that and I like Saunders a lot. If he turns into Randy Winn this will be good for the M’s. LF has been a problem for a very long time. If he eventually is the answer there, that would be great.
by TrustBaseball on Jan 17, 2010 11:22 PM PST up reply actions
Should have been a reply to who else is 23.
Not the Michael Jordan comment, although that works in a different way.
by TrustBaseball on Jan 17, 2010 11:24 PM PST up reply actions
I like Saunders he's quite the tools freak.
But he also has the skillset to succeed in the bigs, he might not be a star but a potential above-average regular with a 3-4 win+ upside I like it.
You got slurved!
He had labrum surgery?
I did not know that, any idea if that might affect his eventual position? As in limit him to LF?
Well,
he won’t be playing CF with DTFT roaming around there.
Avatars make the site look pretty. I still don't have one.
by perfectstrat on Jan 17, 2010 9:13 PM PST up reply actions
I like Saunders
but would prefer to see him start the year in the minors. His toolset is fascinating and he is certainly a valuable asset. That being said, I completely agree with Graham’s last two paragraphs and will look forward to seeing him as the future LF.
Avatars make the site look pretty. I still don't have one.
Maybe it bears repating
that Cheney is a pitcher’s park, so that ISO represents some real power.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 17, 2010 9:35 PM PST reply actions
I think I'd like to see him get a full season in AAA this year
Besides the 200+ PA he had in AAA this year, he’s always had insanely high K%. I want to see him show he can control the strike outs for a full year in AAA before signing off on him. He doesn’t really have enough power(right now) or walk enough to be striking out ~30% of the time.
I also have to say Adam Jones in 2007 was much better than Saunders is now. Jones had two full seasons in AAA and had shown better power and I’d say people were more impressed with his defense. Although he had relatively high strikeouts and didn’t walk that much, I think more people though he had a better handle on the strike zone and could hit curvy stuff better. Jones was also younger. In 2007, I don’t think many people could imagine Jones failing in the majors. Saunders still has some questions to answer.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 17, 2010 10:52 PM PST reply actions
I don't think a direct comparison was intended
No one expects Saunders to become a star, more of a Randy WInn maybe.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 17, 2010 10:56 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah i guess i read it as more of a direct comparison than what was meant
Randy Winn in production but I think Saunders will go about it in much a different way.
What do people think about Torii Hunter, Jayson Werth, Ryan Ludwick and Chris Young as comps for the ranges of outcomes for Saunders in the future. Slightly below avg walks, high-ish strikeouts, decent power and good defense.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 17, 2010 11:08 PM PST up reply actions
.
He doesn’t really have enough power(right now) or walk enough to be striking out ~30% of the time.
Are you totally ignoring his time in Tacoma last year? He struck out half that often and ISO’d .234
by Graham MacAree on Jan 18, 2010 7:23 AM PST up reply actions
Its promising but its only half a season.
I’d believe it more if any of it would have even slightly carried over to the Mariners. Even Brian Lahair can looked like an all-star for 250 AB. I don’t think last year was a total complete fluke but I’d like him to prove it by spending at least 1/2 a year in AAA.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 18, 2010 9:38 AM PST up reply actions
You have a premise and are selectively sampling information to back up your premise
by Graham MacAree on Jan 18, 2010 9:41 AM PST up reply actions
Would it be better to just say that I don't believe his true abilities is 19.6% K
unless he can show his new ability in a larger sample?
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 18, 2010 9:45 AM PST up reply actions
How about you just accept that the probability is that his ability not to strike out has improved?
by Graham MacAree on Jan 18, 2010 9:51 AM PST up reply actions
I do
I just also am not accepting the probability is as high as you do since he has only shown this new ability in a small number of PA.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 18, 2010 11:24 AM PST up reply actions
No, you clearly don't
If you took it into account at all you wouldn’t be talking about a 30% K rate. Ergo, you are discarding the numbers for no good reason.
by Graham MacAree on Jan 18, 2010 11:26 AM PST up reply actions
Sorry I don't really think he'd strike out 30% of the time
I was thinking something more like over 25%. I shouldn’t have said 30%.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 18, 2010 11:28 AM PST up reply actions
I think I was thinking 30% K rate in MLB level
However I think he would probably have something around 25% in AAA. It could be lower but I would be surprised/excited if he did better than the K rate he had last year in AAA.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 18, 2010 11:37 AM PST up reply actions
What
It could be lower but I would be surprised/excited if he did better than the K rate he had last year in AAA.
There is a gap between 25% Ks in AAA and what he did last year (17%) that appears to have fallen through the cracks. Nobody is saying that we should expect him to perform better than he did in Tacoma in 2009, because that would be stupid. However, if we had an assumption about true talent coming in from 2008, we should regress it and then apply 2009 numbers to it. That’s all.
by Graham MacAree on Jan 18, 2010 11:40 AM PST up reply actions
I see 19.4 K% in AAA last year
I’m just wondering where the difference is. I’m using fangraphs.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 18, 2010 11:42 AM PST up reply actions
Ah, cool
Thanks. I kinda guessed that was the problem. K/PA makes more sense than K/AB to me. Will convert.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 18, 2010 11:48 AM PST up reply actions
Stupid question
Which site has it on a K/PA basis? I can just use excel if I have to but I feel like its already been done and I just didn’t see it.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 18, 2010 12:01 PM PST up reply actions
StatCorner
under Batted Ball, though you’ll have to add kL and kS together for now.
Ideally I'd like to see him get at least another half a season in AAA
If he can continue his performance from what he did in AAA last year then he should probably get a promotion if there is room for him to get steady at bats.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 18, 2010 11:26 AM PST up reply actions
The probability? Based on what, ~300 AAA PAs?
That’s a reach. It’s a possibility, but nowhere near a probability.
No it's not
It is probable that his true talent strikeout rate is below what was previously assumed. That’s simple Bayesian theory.
by Graham MacAree on Jan 18, 2010 11:44 AM PST up reply actions
What was previously assumed?
How does it change based on a 17% K rate in AAA and a 31% K rate in MLB?
I think Graham's argument boils down to something quite simple
Saunders used to have a high strikeout rate. He reduced it over half a season in AAA last year. That is new information that allows us to, in turn, reduce what we presume to be his true talent K%. That he struggled in the bigs should also be taken into consideration, but it was a smaller sample, and it was against the highest level of competition, so we weight it less than we do his AAA numbers.
Given his AAA K% in ‘08 and ’09, it’s possible that he is a player that goes through a difficult initial transition.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jan 18, 2010 12:51 PM PST up reply actions
There's a big problem with phrasing here.
The K rate in Tacoma last year, and the extra information it provides, definitely allows us to reduce our estimate for Saunder’s K rate (if statistically true, you’d have to factor in MLB as well).
But that’s completely different from saying that Saunder’s ability to avoid striking out has improved. You can’t assert that based on bayesian formulas. If you want to test for improvement, you have to separate the samples and do a Welch t-test for a smaller mean.
Our projection for Saunders may well have improved, but that says nothing about his skill actually improving. They are two different things and the stating the latter when discussing the former is misleading.
I should have said that our estimate of his true talent K% should be reduced
My bad on phrasing
by Graham MacAree on Jan 18, 2010 1:03 PM PST up reply actions
That is almost certainly true.
Though would need some number work and translations to confirm.
Interestingly, Saunders two stints in AA (07, 08) and AAA (08, 09) show similar improvement patterns so he may just be an adjuster.
Ok if you think that his AAA numbers show a serious decline in his true talent
Then what do his major league numbers tell you.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 18, 2010 11:49 AM PST up reply actions
This comment is incredibly ironic for someone with an online name referencing Edgar.
Isn’t that exactly the line of thinking—‘needs seasoning…,needs to prove things’—that kept Edgar in AAA for several years more than what made sense?
Saunders only has struck out less than 26.6% once in his career and it was in AAA last year
where he struck out 19.6% of the time. If he can actually knock his strikeouts down to that level then that is fine and he is probably ready to move on.
Also, he has 350 AB in AAA. There is no comparison to Edgar. Saunders is 23.
by Edgar for Pres on Jan 18, 2010 9:42 AM PST up reply actions
Edgar did not spend several more years in AAA than what made sense.
That’s a myth.
Taking everything in context regarding the situation at the time, he spent the appropriate amount of time in AAA.
by nathaniel dawson on Jan 19, 2010 2:39 PM PST up reply actions
I still can't believe he's not black.
by SethGrandpa on Jan 17, 2010 11:30 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
I would love for Saunders to be the next Adam Jones.
The Adam Jones who doesn’t get traded for a starting pitcher. He doesn’t even need to be an all-star, just an above average player who fills the role of a left fielder. It’s been a long time since the Mariners had an answer in left field. Randy Winn worked for me, but it’s been a while since then and it was an eternity before him.
Raul Ibanez manned left field successfully for us for four seasons.
Five if you count his poor 2007.
He still posted a 2.2 WAR that year.
There was the terrible 2007, but he was 2.9 WAR in 2006.
For as bad as the Mariners were from 2006-2008 (the post-Winn years of the Ibanez era), left field was not the issue.
I can just stare at this all day
Very hypnotic.
"How ya going to keep them down on the farm after they've seem Paree"
Don’t worry youngsters, it’s a line from a song that was popular after World War I. (No, I wasn’t there but I caught the next one.) If Saunders shows well in Spring Training how will they justify sending him back down to Tacoma? It’s more valuable to the club if he wins the position against Bradley or Langerhans or possibility #3 and sticks in The Show. However, if he is still questionable after ST then send him down for more seasoning, but give the kid a chance to show what he can do now that he’s all of 23.
What happens if he does outperform Langerhans?
I don’t think I understand the distinction between a major league and minor league contract? Is it just the amount of money, or is there some other procedural issue involved?
If Saunders outperforms Langerhans in Spring Training to a degree that the Mariners want him on the 25 (and don’t want Hannahan as our only backup infielder – so I’m assuming we sign a utility guy to replace Bill Hall), then can Langerhans be stored in Tacoma? Would he have to be traded to make that work?
by Snuffleupagus on Jan 18, 2010 8:27 AM PST up reply actions
Nevermind
This question was made moot in about three different ways by comments below.
by Snuffleupagus on Jan 18, 2010 8:58 AM PST up reply actions
Keep the Clock from Ticking
I was all for giving Saunders a shot in LF this year as a way to save money and spend it on better personnel elsewhere. But now that we’ve got Bradley and Langerhans, I’d rather keep Saunders in AAA. He has a good shot at nailing down LF in Safeco for 6 years so I’d prefer for him to work on some things in AAA and get ready to hold down that spot for good next year.
He’s not quite good enough at this point to demand a promotion and it’s not like he’s spent a long time at AAA anyway. We wasted 3 years of Morrow’s clock and I’d hate to see us rush Saunders when we don’t have to.
Will Spring Training play a role
Isn’t this the sort of thing that a ‘spring training invite’ is supposed to help figure out? Pitting a few top prospects against Major League talent. I’ve never followed Spring Training in the past, so am I incorrect in this assessment? Is it useful for actually measuring which players should make the major league team, or do managers just pay lip service to that idea?
Depends
Usually when that happens it’s a somewhat washed up old player being brought in to challenge a prospect for a spot, not the other way around. For instance, we’ve brought in a couple catchers to challenge Rob and Moore in ST and it’s possible they make the team instead if one or both struggle. With Saunders though that’s unlikely as we’ve got Langerhans and Bradley signed to major league deals, and presumably the right handed LF we bring in will be signed to one as well. So they have to be on the 25 man roster, not really leaving room for Saunders (at the start of the season at least).
Don't we need a utility infielder?
Not a right handed LF? Maybe I’m mis counting the 25 man roster right now, but it looks to me like Bradley is the right handed LF. Of course, getting a utility infielder (who can also play left), to a major league deal also cuts Saunders out of the 25 man. Now that I think about it and look it over, it looks like the decision to put Saunders in Tacoma was made when Langerhans was signed.
by Snuffleupagus on Jan 18, 2010 8:20 AM PST up reply actions
Mike Morse batted .492 in Spring Training
and what was his reward? Traded to the Nats.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 18, 2010 8:21 AM PST up reply actions
ST doesn't feature true ML pitching
since most of the guys are shaking the rust off, fiddling with pitches, and taking it easy. Also I keep hearing that pitches don’t move well in the Arizona air so how Saunders does will not tell you what he can do with a Major League curve/slider and that’s pretty important at this point.
Generally the ST invite for a young player is more a chance to work out with the team and interact with his betters, and that’s valuable on its own. Sometimes, the coaches will be impressed enough by the learnign curve and progress made that it will make a difference but it is no substitute for actual games played. Tuiasosopo last year for instance had a fantastic ST and so impressed the management that they kept him on the 25 man while Ichiro was out with his ulcer though he never saw any time on the field. He then went back to Tacoma and continues to underwhelm.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 18, 2010 8:26 AM PST up reply actions
Thanks
So would it be fair to say that performance at Spring Training would be considered less indicative of a players major league ability than performance in AAA?
by Snuffleupagus on Jan 18, 2010 8:28 AM PST up reply actions
Mike Morse
.495 BA.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 18, 2010 12:22 PM PST up reply actions
Saunders has been the focus
Of a lot of hitting instruction by the organization. Even when he was up with the M’s, he spent most of his time in the cages and only saw time in the field because Hall was hurt. Wak et al wanted to see some progress with him learning to “drive the ball” more (see the note towards the end of this post by Drayer), and I suspect the decision on what to do with him may depend to a degree on whether they see him having made that progress by the end of Spring Training (he also was down in Venezuela this winter and while his small sample numbers in a hitter’s league — .353 / .421 / .529 — might be meaningless, the work he did there should help).
That said, I agree with Graham that the likely decision (possibly already made) is to have him start the season in Tacoma with no plans to bring him up until an injury or a mid-season trade makes it necessary. Or (crosses fingers) he so tears up the PCL in Tacoma they have no other choice.
so what if he isn't ready!!
as always the M’s look at their players when we are playing real games and these players seem to always have to perform when the m’s are in dire straits for players. this type of pressure has affected their performances for many years when they have been called upon so why don’t we try starting them out during opening week and see what they can do from that standpoint. Saunders is not ready but what rookies or young players are??they need to be given opportunities to succeed, he was given a good shot last year but he never faced ANY righthanders his first 2 to 3 weeks except bullpen aces so you must consider his start as being a good building block for him hitting lefties. He got lots of experience doing that, just not good results. He needs to start and play, period, until he flops or is a star.
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by Graham MacAree on Jan 20, 2010 2:26 PM PST up reply actions


















