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Around SBN: Raiders' GM Begins The Purge

Power and OBP

Jeff's note: there is a Hannahan post below that went up 14 minutes before this one. We suck at this.

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A common refrain so far this winter is that the Mariners need to add a power hitter to replace the departing Adrian Beltre and Russell Branyan. The argument goes that we might have a fantastic top of the order in Ichiro-Figgins-Bradley, but there's going to be nobody driving in all of these baserunners. This line of thought is flawed in many ways, some of which have been previously discussed on the site, but I wanted to share the results of a little thought experiment with you all.

Consider the relationship between runs scored in an inning, on base percentage, and slugging. First let's just look at OBP. Assuming an even distribution (this doesn't happen, of course), for a given on base percentage, we get a certain number of baserunners per inning. An OBP of .500? Three baserunners. .900? 27 baserunners. .000? Zero baserunners. I could keep doing this, but I'm sure you get my drift. Now let's look at the runs that would score for each situation. X amount of baserunners means that there is a minimum amount of runs and a maximum amount of possible runs scored in an inning. Obviously, you can strand three players at a time, and the most efficient way to end an inning is to clear the bases with a home run and then make the final out.

Therefore what governs the relationship between baserunners per inning and runs scored per inning is power. It should be fairly clear to everyone that a team that OBPs .900 is going to score a lot of runs whether they walk 90% of the time or hit home runs 90% of the time, but a team that OBPs .100? The only way that team ever scores is with a home run. Power, in other words, maximises one's efficiency in run scoring. On-base percentage increases the number of runs you can possibly score. It therefore follows that the higher the OBP, the less vital it is to squeeze every last run out of the guys you do get on base, since you have an better chance of scoring runs by stringing together a rally.

The conclusion that falls out of the above is that power is probably less important as you start giving up fewer outs. The 2010 Mariners need home runs far less than the 2009 club did.

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You know...most all of this stuff isn't time dependent...

You guys could always just hold one of these for a later date. I know…I know…I’m crazy.

by SethGrandpa on Jan 15, 2010 10:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Really, this isn't fair to new posters.

I haven’t even read any of the previously posted today’s stories. You want us to step into the light and now we’ve got homework. This is absolutely right Graham and thanks for keeping it short. And now, on to the reading list.

by TrustBaseball on Jan 15, 2010 9:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Wow.

Are you guys sure you’re not all on speed? Just crankin these out left and right.

Did you fall in love with Miguel Batista? And he rejected you?

by melenious on Jan 15, 2010 9:33 PM PST reply actions  

Can't this all be simulated?

There are a finite number of options in 9 innings of baseball offense.

You could make a fairly simple and rough computer program that could simulate a few thousand games and spit out the average number of runs produced per game. I would think that someone has done this somewhere, anyone know of a basic attempt at this?

You would just need to enter the percentage chance of each outcome for each of the 9 players in the lineup (the outcomes being SO, BB, single, double etc.). Each outcome has a certain percentage of effecting a baserunner in a particular way. It could get tricky when dealing with the potential for sacrifices and steals, but not too bad.

So you would enter in the distribution of each players power in the lineup, run the simulation, and you’d get your average runs scored. It seems like this would be really interesting for playing with batting order and for looking at a power vs. obp debate.

by Snuffleupagus on Jan 15, 2010 10:10 PM PST reply actions  

Maybe you're thinking of something like this?

Lineup Analysis, kind of simple but fun. Posnanski mentioned it in his blog piece, Willie, Bloomquist, and the Dunn. Just so I’ll never forget where to find the link.

by Kermit. on Jan 15, 2010 10:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes, thank you.

that is exactly what I meant. Although I bet you could a more complex that involves breaking down slugging into its components, but I’d guess that the results wouldn’t change much.

Thanks,

by Snuffleupagus on Jan 15, 2010 11:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Running the numbers

Using Chone projections for the 2010 season I plugged in our lineup as it stand right now (without injuries).

The result was 4.488 runs per game.

(an interesting aside: In the 98-02 model every single ideal lineup had Bradley batting #1 and Figgins batting #9, and many had Ichiro at #5. I couldn’t find a description of how the models are different, but because the 59-04 model had Figgins first and Bradley second, that model seemed more ‘realistic’ and I used its numbers)

Now we can replace a couple players.

Switching LaRoche for Kotchman increases runs to 4.561, and breaks the uniformity of the ideal lineup order.

this could be played with for hours, in an attempt to estimate value of OBP for SLG. But the one quick thing I did note was that having a first baseman who has a .300/.300 OBP/SLG (walks or singles 30% of the time and nothing else) was better for our run production than having a first baseman with a .200/.500 ratio.

And more realistically a .350/.400 ratio is better than a .300/.500 ratio.

by Snuffleupagus on Jan 16, 2010 7:40 AM PST up reply actions  

Plus Safeco Field isn't really built for a power hitter

It’s a better option for the Mariners to have hitters that can hit guys in with line drives and sacrifice flies because of the Safe’s dimensions. Unlike the AL East where the parks tend to be hitters parks, the AL West has parks that are more pitchers parks.

by seattle_since_81 on Jan 15, 2010 11:28 PM PST reply actions  

GREAT Post

Seriously, this is the kind of post that even the most anti-sabermetric fan has to agree with. Well done to explain it in such simple terms.

by tait644 on Jan 15, 2010 11:35 PM PST reply actions  

Actually I think we lose the anti-sabermetric fan...

… as soon as the article says “consider the relationship between”.
But I agree with the explanation. That was why we had Branyan batting in the #2 hole last year. Give him as many chances as possible to hit a dinger, because it was the only way we were going to score.

by margin1522 on Jan 16, 2010 12:14 AM PST up reply actions  

What I take from this...

…OBP makes power less necessary. However, it doesn’t make it less valuable, unless you’re really climbing up that .900 OBP side of the spectrum (even a .400 team OBP wouldn’t really be near there, of course)

You write that power maximizes a team’s efficiency in run scoring. This makes sense, and agrees with the original thought I had when I started reading this article. Given that we have A.) a relatively obvious lack of power, and B.) a large increase in team OBP this offseason… it seems that while adding MORE OBP would be far from detrimental (in fact, would be quite solid considering our starting point), adding power would allow us to realize the full utility of what we already have gained.

After all, 3 baserunners per inning who are depending heavily on BB and 1B won’t score all that often – and that requires a highly unrealisting .500 team OBP. Put a guy with a decent ISO in after every third OBP guy (or so), and perhaps you’ll have a few shorter innings… but several which are much bigger, even with fewer average baserunners.

My point? Love the article, and the point makes sense. I just doesn’t think it proves we don’t need power hitters, so much as it shows that it’s not a critical need. The power/patience juxtaposition actually highlights the fact that a true slugger would help us get the most out of all those added baserunners.

Visiting Mariners' fan

by KingCorran on Jan 15, 2010 11:55 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Absolutely correct here

Of course adding a slugger would help us score more runs with team as currently constructed. However, I feel that this is a fairly cheap analysis: you’d have to take a high OBP guy out to add a good power hitter.

by Graham MacAree on Jan 16, 2010 8:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Although
The 2010 Mariners fans want home runs far more than the 2009 fans did.

Chicks dig the long ball. Especially on a team in first place.

by MT Olson on Jan 15, 2010 11:57 PM PST reply actions  

More numbers later?

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!

Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...

by baetown415 on Jan 16, 2010 12:08 AM PST reply actions  

You need both power and OBP to maximize your returns

I did some playing around with Tango’s Markov simulator where you can put in a batting line and it spits out a bunch of cool results.

The stuff I looked at was trying to compare offenses that only do two things; walk and hit home runs. Should be simple enough to understand, right?

Anyway, I played around with it for a while and have a cool spreadsheet with results (I’m sure there was a better way).

If you have a team that has BB/PA = 25% and HR/PA = 0% => 0.75 R/G
If you have a team that has BB/PA = 0% and HR/PA = 1% => 0.27 R/G
If you have a team that has BB/PA = 25% and HR/PA = 1% => 1.34 R/G

Basically by hitting 1 HR per 100 PA you have doubled your run production. This is because the run value for a home run for a team with BB/PA = 25% and HR/PA = 0% is 1.55 runs/HR.

Anyway, I think I’m a little lost in numbers right now and nothing useful is popping out of my head although I feel like there is something pretty good up there right now.

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 16, 2010 12:54 AM PST reply actions  

I really want this team to hit like...12 HRs all year, yet still win the division.

Then I can sit at home and laugh manically, possibly while a stroking a cat on my lap.

by SethGrandpa on Jan 16, 2010 12:56 AM PST reply actions  

I figured out a very good way of explaining the importance of OBP and SLG I think

Before all these new fangled offensive metrics came out OPS was one of the best we had to easily describe the level of offensive production because it accounted for OBP and SLG and actually tracked well with offensive production. Interestingly, OBP*SLG was always a better predictor of offensive production than OBP+SLG but never caught on because OPS is just so darn easy to calculate and understand using conventional slash numbers.

The thing is, we should think of offense as OBP times SLG. Its just that simple. Maybe I’m just having a personal epiphany here but I think this makes total sense to me.

If you hit a single you increase your SLG because you got a base (SLG = total bases / at bats) and also increased your OBP because you didn’t make an out (OBP = (1 – outs) / plate appearance). Basically SLG and OBP represent the two facets of offense of getting onbase and moving around the bases and the interesting part is that we can predict production by multiplying them so run production is best thought of as depending on the product of OBP and SLG and not just the linear combination of them. Now there are two ways of thinking of this.

You can think of it as the batter (you) having some personal slugging percentage and everybody else (your team) having a collective OBP. In this scheme your slugging percentage is made more valuable based on how many players are on base. If there is 1 person on base your home run is worth 2 runs but if there are 2 people on base your home run is worth 3 runs. Your team’s OBP is basically a multiplier that makes your SLG more valuable to the team. I will call this the RBI approach because its based on how many RBI’s you will get (Think Lopez).

On the other hand you can think of the batter (you again) as having a personal on base percentage and your team having a collective SLG. Your OBP tells how often you get on base and your team’s SLG tells us how often you will get driven in for a run. I’ll call this the Runs approach because its based on how many R you get (Think Ichiro).

In this way we can see we are multiplying two numbers together. Just walks or homeruns by themselves will produce relatively poor offenses. Because SLG and OBP multiply (1×10 = 10 and 5×5 = 25) we’d like to be good at both OBP and SLG if possible. Having just high OBP or SLG is good but without the other you can never be great.

OBP*SLG isn’t rigorously the most accurate way to estimate runs but it really is I think one of the easiest ways to think about why both are valuable. I’m not sure if that helped anybody but I think it helped me a little bit. I feel like there is a better way of saying what I said but I think the concept is there and pretty simple.

Also a disclaimer: OBP + SLG does a pretty decent job of predicting run production so in effect over the relevant ranges of OBP and SLG in the MLB, OPS is a pretty good predictor. OBP*SLG is only slightly better however it is definitely slightly better and probably accounts for teams which have very lopsided OBP/SLG totals. The difference is small so usually it doesn’t matter much and linear weights works fine. Only in the most extreme cases do we really need to worry and even in those cases it probably isn’t much more than 10-20 runs over a season for an entire team.

by Edgar for Pres on Jan 16, 2010 1:28 AM PST reply actions  

Collective vs. Individual, right?

You’re intending this as a team-wide, rather than individual stat, correct? Because the way I’m reading it, as an individual, the key numbers would be your SLG multiplied by the rest of the team’s OBP and vice-versa.

As a collective stat, it is a little more insightful than OPS though.

Alex Semin likes to drink sake after engaging in hockey bukkake.

by D'ohboy on Jan 16, 2010 6:12 AM PST up reply actions  

This occured to me while reading Edgar for Pres's posts but I'm not sure how related it actually is and I don't want to hijack,

so new post. It’s generally agreed that lineup order doesn’t make a huge deal and that typically you just want to hit your best hitters up top and not worry too much about it. Now, Edgar’s thoughts on how the higher your team OBP is the more valuable additional slugging becomes prompted me to think if ordering your lineup with 2-3 OBP guys with a high slugging guy after them, followed by 2-3 more OBP guys, another slugging guy, etc. It’s a half-baked idea at the moment, but essentially if you broke them down (assuming the right personnel) into 3 squads of two good OBP guys followed by a slugger (paying mind to still try to keep the best guys towards the top of course) you might be able to maximize your run scoring potential fairly well. Just something to think about, don’t have time to play with the numbers right now to figure out how much it would actually bear out.

by Terminator X on Jan 16, 2010 2:51 AM PST reply actions  

Tango's Reseach on this Subject is Definitive

http://www.tangotiger.net/runscreated.html

This article discusses the linear weight values of various hit types as a function of team OBP (which he calls “on base average” in the article.)

by philosofool on Jan 16, 2010 11:05 AM PST reply actions  

x
which he calls "on base average"

Tomato, tomatoe. OBP was also commonly referred to OBA before it hit the mainstream.

by Poochie on Jan 16, 2010 11:53 AM PST up reply actions  

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