Mark McGwire Admits Steroid Use in 1998
Coincidentally just days after that being basically the last question asked of the blogging panel at Saturday's event, Mark McGwire has apparently admitted to steroid use during the 1998 season. On the surface, this seems a necessary move since he's stepping back into baseball with the Cardinals this season. The questions and stories were going to dog him and the team all year.
I don't have much or anything to say about this at the moment, but it's obviously big news, even if massively unsurprising, so here's a thread to discuss it in.
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Does this make an Adrian Gonzalez trade more likely?
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 11, 2010 12:15 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
Does this make him a first-ballot HOFer?
I hope not.
"Good evening Blazer fans, wherever you may be!"-Bill Schonely
Considering he's already not been voted in multiple times, I'm gonna go "no."
by SethGrandpa on Jan 11, 2010 12:26 PM PST up reply actions
He was not a HOFer without Roids
Unlike Bonds, who is.
"Good evening Blazer fans, wherever you may be!"-Bill Schonely
He was pretty good in his rookie year, assuming he didn't use steroids that year.
He wouldn’t be as good surely and may not have played as long but he wasn’t terrible.
by Mariner John on Jan 11, 2010 12:29 PM PST up reply actions
He was a good, even very good player
But not a HOFer without roids given that his only claim to fame is HRs unlike Bonds who was one heck of a defensive player and base stealer in his younger days.
"Good evening Blazer fans, wherever you may be!"-Bill Schonely
We don't really know though.
He obviously wouldn’t have hit as many home runs but we can’t know how many less he wouldn’t have hit (that’s a doozy of a sentence) so it’s sort of a dumb argument to have.
by Mariner John on Jan 11, 2010 12:35 PM PST up reply actions
Who cares whether he was a HoFer without roids?
He used roids, so we should evaluate his play with roids.
And he belongs in the hall.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Please let me know what Mark McGwire's entire career would have looked like without steroids
to make a statement like this is utterly unprovable. How do we know that steroids even significantly helped him? You could even argue that they actually hurt him, as he spent a lot of time in Oakland on the DL with various injuries, and anabolic steroids have been proved to be bad for athlete’s joints due to the quick building of muscle. How do we know that given his natural ability, that he doesn’t just hit 700 home runs by not using steroids and staying healthy his whole career?
by seattlebruin on Jan 11, 2010 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
He used steroids primarily to recover form injuries,
The injuries had already happened. One of the main benefits of the steroids is to help you recover from injuries faster. I wouldnt expect it to cause them.
If he hadnt used them, he probably wouldve lost even more time to injuries.
The injury effect is debatable
Correct use of steroids can help you heal injuries short term, but abuse can lead to injuries. In fact, during the steroid era, DL visits spiked. This is probably largely due to the fact that many players did not regulate their use correctly.
FUCK THE ANGELS!
by Fuckmikereilly on Jan 11, 2010 3:35 PM PST up reply actions
I wish Bedard had taken steroids the past couple years.
I fucking hate you Mariners
by kentroyals5 on Jan 11, 2010 12:57 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Someone help me understand
I’ve been trying to grasp this for a while, and a great opportunity to ask has never come up, so this feels like as good a place as any to do so. When pitchers and hitters are on PEDs, doesn’t that (at least partially) balance things out?
I know I’m probably vastly outnumbered on this stance, but when the argument is always “player X from era Y never had benefit Z, so this guy is a baby eating cheater” shouldn’t we also consider that player X from era Y also never had to play against anyone who had benefit Z?
Like I said, just trying to better understand why players who took PEDs get such a lashing when they hit well, vs. the guys who were on them to improve other aspects of the game.
Rooting for lovable losers since 1984.
doesn't seem to be the case
in theory I agree with you. I’m not sure why it wouldn’t balance. But if you look at the results, it clearly didn’t. While we saw home run distance increase, I don’t think we saw an increase in fastball velocity (I’m sure this could be confirmed).
We didn’t just see more home run players, but we saw individual players increase their ability to hit home runs regularly. So while it might seem like it should have balanced out, we have data showing us that it did not.
Also, such a theory would require every player to use PEDs and not just a handful.
by Snuffleupagus on Jan 11, 2010 1:13 PM PST up reply actions
I'm convinced 90% of the players were roiding
by Graham MacAree on Jan 11, 2010 1:16 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
90% might be high
But a quick glimpse at the pitchers McGwire hit HR off of reveals some familiar names (Clemens, Kevin Brown, Villone, etc).
I guess what I’m leaning toward is that it’s not just strength these guys were taking them for. They were taking amphetamines to serve as uppers, improving their overall alertness. They were taking various PEDs to increase their speed of recovery from injuries.
Rooting for lovable losers since 1984.
by seattlecougar on Jan 11, 2010 1:25 PM PST up reply actions
I'd guess 80-90% tried it at least once over the course of their career
Whereas the number of players who used it on occasion was lower, and the number of players who used it regularly was even lower than that.
And the 10% who weren't using steroid hormones
were using peptide hormones or synthetic analogs.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 11, 2010 1:48 PM PST up reply actions
Edgar seems like a prime candidate for using
as does Cal Ripken. But honestly I care not about those three but would love for Cal Ripken to be implicated.
I don't know about Edgar
Ripken is almost certainly a user. You just can’t play that many innings at SS with his frame and not need help to recover. Either he was on steroids or he’s Wolverine.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 12, 2010 8:15 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Ken Caminiti was a cokehead and is dead from said cocaine.
by I Lick Squirrels on Jan 11, 2010 11:47 PM PST up reply actions
His thoughts might not have been all that reliable.
Due to cocaine.
by I Lick Squirrels on Jan 12, 2010 12:47 AM PST up reply actions
Blow makes people more reliable
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 12, 2010 8:15 AM PST up reply actions
Until you stop.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
I kinda think that the physical motions of the game make the benefits unequal.
I think for pitchers the effects of steroid use are manifested in the form of better endurance and quicker recovery, and not so much additional MPH or break or control. Hitters get those same benefits, but the nature of batting also means that they benefit from more muscle mass, e.g. you weren’t seeing pitchers throwing 102 MPH, you were seeing offensive numbers explode.
by Manzanillos Cup on Jan 11, 2010 1:17 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, it's the offensive number explosion that does it for most people, I think.
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I'm not confident we didn't see MLB fiddling with the ball during that period.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
This has been my argument.
Seems to me it’s been a level playing field. And it’s not just a juiced hitter vs. a maybe maybe-not pitcher, it’s a juiced hitter vs. an infield/outfield who can maybe run down balls faster or throw out runners more effectively than they otherwise could have without asterisk inducing supplements. Baseball’s come to terms with eras of racism and exclusion. Uppers, amphetamines, and cocaine. Boozers and general douchebaggieness. They/we’re all going to have to get a grip and move on past the whole stupid steroid thing.
by Hit By Pitch Brewing Company on Jan 11, 2010 7:22 PM PST up reply actions
Is he actually going to play again?
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But if he did play again, would that restart his HoF eligibility?
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
From what I understand, no.
He would be taken off the ballot and would again wait until five years after his last game, then he’d be back on. But the number of years counted against him would be the same as it was the last time he was on the ballot. So he’d have 11 more chances to get in. Or something like that.
Where did you see this?
I’ve been looking for information on this since it came up and never came across this angle.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
I think I read it on Keith Law's Twitter feed.
I’d try to hunt it down for you, but I gotta run out the door.
Thanks for the hint at least.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
Here's a reader comment at BBTF
Take it for what it’s worth:
The precedent set by Minoso and by the 5% victims reinstated in 1985, is that you get 15 years of eligibility. The precedent set by Rijo is that if you retire a second time, your five year wait restarts. For McGwire it means if he appears in a game in 2010 he will be off the BBWAA ballot until the 2016 election. He will still have 11 years of BBWAA eligibility remaining.
The more I look around, the more confused I get. I found a KLAW chat in which he said he didn’t know how the 15-year part would work. I could definitely be wrong, but I do remember seeing it from someone trustworthy enough for me to remember.
That would still be smart for him
By that time, there are bound to be more sabermetrically inclined writers in the BBWAA.
by vivaelpujols on Jan 11, 2010 7:41 PM PST up reply actions
I think you missed this story:
I will smash your face into a jelly.
by Phil Hatzenbuehler on Jan 11, 2010 1:44 PM PST up reply actions
This is a good thing, though not really shocking
Before today (in the eyes of the BBWAA, at least, and probably a good portion of the public) Mark McGwire was a steroid user and a liar. Today he’s just a steroid user. The sooner everyone admits to what they did the sooner we can make an honest assessment of what the steroid era really meant for baseball in general and stop blaming the few individuals that happened to be the best at the sport while juicing.
by OlSalty on Jan 11, 2010 1:07 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I think more Segui-caliber players should be on the ballot, if only as a test.
Where anyone who votes for a player on that level immediately gets their vote taken away forever. Some of those voters needed to be weeded the fuck out.
Jay Buhner got a vote a few years ago.
I feel like there’s no harm and no foul on that one.
Now the five who didn’t vote for anyone are ridiculous.
Batted .393/.614/.464 for 2009 Diablos, #5 in OBP for PSSBL Rocky Division.
by Two Rs and Two Ls on Jan 11, 2010 3:34 PM PST up reply actions
shock!
the outrage/shock over player steroid use always seemed like a blatant cover from the rest of the baseball community. It was obvious to anyone with a brain in their heads that certain players were using steroids. Yet baseball refused to implement strong rules to prevent it. Everyone was complicit as a result. owners, managers, fans and especially writers.
Rather than own up to our collective participation in the steroid era we can all act shocked about these revelations and effectively blame the individual players. Baseball loved McGuire and his obvious steroid abuse at the time. To make him (and others) into a villain now is just a hypocritical attempt to pretend that we weren’t parties to the action from the beginning.
McGwire hit .299/.470/.752 in '98 and received two first-place MVP votes.
Sosa hit .307/.377/.647 and got the other thirty first-place votes.
Wow.
"Ever tried? Ever failed? No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett http://mvn.com/marinersminors/
Cubs won 90 games and went to the playoffs...
Cards barely were .500.
That could be one reason for the discrepancy.
And holy shit the division winners in the NL that year were insane!
ATL with 106, Houston with 102 and Padres with 98 wins
by seattlesundevil on Jan 11, 2010 1:17 PM PST up reply actions
That's about nine wins with the bat for McGwire.
Barry Bond’s bat in 2001 was worth 12 wins.
by Manzanillos Cup on Jan 11, 2010 1:57 PM PST up reply actions
I have never seen a player who loved the game more
nor do I know of a player who was a better teammate. McGwire left a $15m per contract on the table when he retired because he felt he could no longer perform like a star quality player. Criticize the steriod use if you must, but I feel baseball would be far better off if it had more people like him.
by Poochie on Jan 11, 2010 2:22 PM PST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
.
nor do I know of a player who was a better teammate
How so, exactly? What’s he got on Griffey/Sweeney?
Not only was he held in the highest regard by his manager
But he retired in order so his salary could be used to bring in a star player.
by Poochie on Jan 11, 2010 3:48 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Great teammates don't put their team in jeopardy by using steroids. Great teammates are role models.
by sirbrianwilson on Jan 11, 2010 2:53 PM PST up reply actions
I kinda see the logic in this but...
He never really put his team in jeopardy by using steroids unless he was somehow addicted to it and was bashing other people in the face for a quick fix or in a fit of roid rage. He was a hell of a player whose career will be tainted with steroid use. Also you don’t have to be a role model to be a good teammate.
You got slurved!
Had he been caught, he would have been suspended. That would have hurt the team.
by sirbrianwilson on Jan 11, 2010 3:05 PM PST up reply actions
You get caught bad enough they probably toss you in the pokey.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
No, that's great role models you're thinking of
great teammates help their team win on the field and help keep order in the clubhouse. They’re easy guys to get along with and respected leaders.
by seattlebruin on Jan 11, 2010 4:23 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Do you think there is a chance McGwire retired because he knew steroid testing was beginning in 2002?
Not trying to patronize, but it is an interesting possibility. McGwire’s personality would fit into this thinking.
Well now I have to question the integrity of what was up to this day a completely honest and above-reproach game.
by pdb on Jan 11, 2010 2:00 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
He said he's sorry
what more do you want, you vindictive, heartless puritan?
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 11, 2010 2:06 PM PST up reply actions
'98 was still awesome; I don't care what happened
I’ll never forget watching this game.
by stupidquestions on Jan 11, 2010 3:06 PM PST reply actions
.

My Mariners blog - SodoMojo, Twitter Feed, Fuck the fucking Angels!
by gregrabble on Jan 11, 2010 3:16 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
I'm amazed it took this long for this to show up.
Hard work never killed nobody, but I won't take my chances.
Who cares
Racer X. You have to love those amarillo hops.
p.s. fuck you angels
Black is East, Up is White
yadda yadda.
...and now I'm here
It is what it is
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 11, 2010 5:05 PM PST up reply actions
It's a good move for him, I imagine.
I’m not sure how many voters are willing to change their minds at this point, but it can’t hurt. And it might help him sleep better at night.
I knew he'd have to do it
when he took the job as Cardinals hitting coach. I’m sure the Cardinals discussed it with him in the hiring process.
FUCK THE ANGELS!
by Fuckmikereilly on Jan 11, 2010 3:55 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, at some point
he was either going to have to make a non-apology apology or come clean, just so the first week of Spring Training wouldn’t be all steroids all the time.
While he should have come clean long ago
there are few could who will come clean without being proven to have used
I wish more players would use steroids
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
They get paid a lot of money- if they have to kill themselves to maximize their performance, then that's an inherent risk to the job and I'm fine with that
Determined, Jonesing Commentor | Proud proprietor of Wyomingroutes.org & Washingtonhighways.org
Why not
Seems like a pretty arbitrary line to draw. Its not like everyone is back to drinking raw eggs and boxing frozen carcasses now that anabolics are being tested for.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 11, 2010 5:05 PM PST up reply actions
There would be more dingers
My Mariners blog - SodoMojo, Twitter Feed, Fuck the fucking Angels!
by gregrabble on Jan 11, 2010 4:28 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
We could finally get to see
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 12, 2010 8:18 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I still don't get why his admitting use of Andro back when he played is any different.
The demarcation between legal and illegal is ridiculous.
Could you explain this thought using monosyllabic words?
...and now I'm here
One of the big anabolic steroids is dihydrotestosterone, which is the active final product that triggers production of protein (for muscle mass).
Looking at the pretty pathway map, you’ll notice androstenedione is an intermediate that, with processing by two enzymes, becomes dihydrotestosterone (the very molecule which is illegal to ingest). What MLB did was decide that it was illegal to burn wood because it causes fire but Duralogs were still cool. Use a different product, get the same result.
by abender20 on Jan 11, 2010 5:04 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Wish more people would see it this way
In any case, going all apeshit over steroid hormones and turning a blind eye to all the other shit (look up myostatin inhibitors, that shit is amazing) makes it clear how much of this is a PR whitewash.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 11, 2010 5:09 PM PST up reply actions
I feel as though you may not know the definition of monosyllabic.
Here, I’ll do it for you:
“Two Roids. Both Lead to Same Bufff. One Good. One Bad. Why? Same Thing. No Point. Stupid Game. Make Sense! ARGH!”
...and now I'm here
I is a sesquipedalian.
Fo’ Sho’.
...and now I'm here
So, quick question. I've read someplace that the rapid muscle growth from a serious program can lead to tendon or ligament damage.
The muscles gain mass and strength so quickly, they overpower the connective tissues which gain develop at a slower rate. It sounds pretty good, any truth to that?
I've read the same and it makes sense developmentally.
Also, taking testosterone or intermediates that cause in increase in testosterone feed back negatively on the system that stimulates your body’s own production, leading to atrophy of those cells (see shrunken testicles etc.).
Apparently this came as a shock to Brian Williams
He opened tonight’s evening news with a nice dose of roid rage directed at Mcgwire.
Wow. At the beginning I thought it was some fake comedy intro to something they'd show on the Daily Show.
He’s a little ticked.
I fucking hate you Mariners
It was like someone told him Santa wasn't real
Unfortunately, he learned 5 years later than the other kids
Well that's too bad.
I usually like Brian Williams, but that was over the top. If you’re going to take a stand and rake one guy over the coals for lying to the nation, Mark McGwire is the one you pick? Silly, just silly. Maybe he lost a bet on it or something.
De Gutibus non disputandum est
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 11, 2010 7:23 PM PST up reply actions

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