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Peter King: "Derek Jeter is the best player of my adult lifetime"

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Peter King's Mailbag

I haven't read anything quite this silly in a long while.  Peter King is a football writer in name, but for any national writer of significant fame to make a statement like that . . . . well . . . . it's just plain silly.

If I had the time, I would write up a detailed treatise about the statistical methodologies one could employ to show that Derek Jeter isn't the best player on his team, or even the best shortstop on his team.  I'm just not sure that his statement warrants that effort.

So, instead, I came here to gripe about it to people that can sympathize with me.  Stuff like this drives me crazy - given the advancements of baseball statistics, and their more frequent usage by mainstream folks, there is just no excuse for being this ignorant.

There, I've said my piece.  Thanks for listening.

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Read More: Derek Jeter (SS - NYY), Seattle Mariners

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This is Peter King's shtick.

Write wholesome boilerplate. Have wholesome boilerplate derided for its navel-gazing and naivete. Play the agreeable fall guy. Rake in cash while those that scorn you keep you relevant and employed.

by John Morgan on Aug 25, 2009 8:55 PM PDT reply actions  

Indeed

This is a man who gets paid big bucks to write about articles that are essentially half football and half various complaints about his travel adventures. He may seem dumb, but it may all be an act. Even if it’s not, I am quite envious.

by Gihyou on Aug 26, 2009 1:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well, Jeter's been worth 62.2 career WAR per Rally

And he’s been better (in comparison to other players) in the postseason as well. His career OBP/SLG in the postseason is .377/.469 and he’s 16 out of 20 in steals. That works out to about a .380 wOBA. Postseason wOBA in the AL is about .310, so in his 562 career postseason at bats, assuming similar defense to the regular season he’s been worth about 5.5 WAR.

Then it’s just a matter of how much you weight the postseason. 2, 3, 4 times the regular season? It’s possible that you can make a case that Jeter has been one of the most “best” players in the last 20 years, although there are still guys who are clearly better.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 25, 2009 9:28 PM PDT reply actions  

Jeter's about a third of the way to Bond's career WAR (per Rally).

But I don’t think that takes into account how hard it is to play for the Yankees, so I’m going with Jeter.

by Manzanillos Cup on Aug 25, 2009 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

God bless you

Career Safeco Record: 7-2

by .Taylor on Aug 26, 2009 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ummmm

Barry Bobby Bonds is clearly the best baseball player who has ever lived

I like this better.

by gorilla_baller on Aug 26, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Why not?

They aren’t anywhere near as accurate as what we have now. You can get a good idea of defensive prowess, but good enough to be confident in assigning concrete value? I am skeptical.

by Aaron Campeau on Aug 26, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Total Zone

It’s basically supped up range factor, with adjustments for quality of the play and opportunities. That isn’t that bad because range factors is pretty good over a 15 year sample.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 26, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Range factor is "plays made"

However, we know that some plays are more difficult that others, and some players get more plays. However, over 15 years, I suspect the difficulty aspect evens out. The opportunity thing is a different problem because it can have persisting bias’, such as a ballpark that inflates fly balls or playing in front of a ground ball heavy team. Total Zone does a pretty good job of adjusting for oppertunities.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 26, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

I heard Tim McCarver say something like that...

Watching Yankees vs. Red Sox on Fox I heard him say something stupid like “Jeter is a great shortshop because of his ‘savvy’” or something like that..

by mvjournal on Aug 25, 2009 11:16 PM PDT reply actions  

Eh, he's a football writer. And not a great one.

I don’t really expect him to know much about baseball.

And I’d rather have some idiot blowing Jeter than blowing Eckstein or someone truly unremarkable. At least Jeter’s a true Hall of Famer and we can just chalk it up to someone not paying much attention to baseball.

That said . . . Bonds? Pujols? Alex? Come on, Peter.

by Teej on Aug 25, 2009 11:51 PM PDT reply actions  

Big Daddy Drew of KSK ripped him a new one for this:

“Career stats for Jeter (14 full major league seasons):
.387 OBP
.459 SLG
.846 OPS
222 HR
1059 RBI

Career stats for Albert Pujols (9 full major league seasons)
.426 OBP
.627 SLG
1.054 OPS
359 HR
1,083 RBI

Keep in mind that Peter King is 52 years old. That means his lifetime includes Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey Jr,, Rickey Henderson, Nolan Ryan, Tony Gwynn, Cal Ripken, Alex Rodriguez, and JESUS CHRIST AREN’T YOU SUPPOSED TO BE A RED SOX FAN?"

KSK link

Is that the light at the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of an oncoming train?

by Benne on Aug 25, 2009 11:57 PM PDT reply actions  

Ha

I like how he just conveniently left out the number of appearances in a prime-time, nationally broadcast game.

by lyleleander on Aug 26, 2009 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

A few demonstrably better players from my adult lifetime:

Griff
ARod
Bonds
Pujols
Rickey

I guess no one from the 70’s or 80’s (King’s adult lifetime) can compare either.

Even McCarver doesn’t ejaculate the Jeter spunk that hard.

Mike Scioscia is fat.

by Big Jared on Aug 26, 2009 1:42 AM PDT reply actions  

Than fucking Jeter, really?

Way better hitter in most terms, way better defender in every single way. I don’t understand your comment.

I must be confused – are you commenting about Jeter vs. one of other above listed players? The only one who is close is Rickey, and I think he is clearly better than Jeter overall.

by AtomicGarden on Aug 26, 2009 2:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Griffey is a better defender but he also plays a less important position.

Jeter has been worth ~16 fewer WAR over six fewer seasons. If Griffey has the edge, it’s not by a ton. Jeter is overrated, but so is Griffey.

I don’t think either one of them is close to Bonds, Pujols or Rickey.

by Aaron Campeau on Aug 26, 2009 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ah, okay, I was going to add below that while Griffey has been more valuable career to date

it is hard to discount that Jeter very likely has several more very productive years ahead of him, unless somehow his hitting falls off a cliff in the next year.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Aug 26, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm beginning to think that Jeter's lack of defensive skill has been somewhat overstated.

I don’t think he’s good by any means, but if you look at his numbers he has two disastrously bad seasons, two below average seasons, three right-around-average seasons and he’s at +7 this year. The horrible season look like outliers, and I’m thinking he’s more like a -5 SS that a -15 SS.

He still shouldn’t be playing SS with Alex Rodriguez on the team, but I just don’t know if I believe he is as bad as his reputation would have me believe.

by Aaron Campeau on Aug 26, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was distracted when I wrote this. I should have said "The average short stop could be worse this year at then they were in previous years."

I wish UZR had a year to year measurement to show if a player is acctually better then previous years rather then how he compares to average each year.

50!

by joof on Aug 26, 2009 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree

But MGL said the year to year differences for average aren’t that much.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 26, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

That doesn't matter.

What we care about regarding value is how he is in relation to average.

Any sort of non-relative measure wouldn’t tell us anything about the value of that measure to his team.

---
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com
http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com \ twitter

by Jack Moore on Aug 27, 2009 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

A complete list of players who are, or likely were, better than Derek Jeter

that played after 1980:

Manny Ramirez
Mark McGwire
Reggie Smith
Roberto Alomar
Gary Sheffield
Ozzie Smith
Tim Rainer
Kenny Lofton
Willie McCovey
Jim Thome
Rafael Palmeiro
Craig Biggio
Gary Carter
Ivan Rodriguez
Jim Edmonds
Eddie Murray
Alan Trammel
Larry Walker
Edgar Martinez
Albert Pujols
Carlton Fisk
Bobby Grich
Tony Gywnn
Barry Larkin
Lou Whitaker
Johnny Bench
Chipper Jones
Reggie Jackson
Paul Molitor
Pete Rose
Frank Thomas
Robin Yount
Rod Carew
Ken Griffey
Jeff Bagwell
George Brett
Carl Yaz
Wade Boggs
Cal Ripken
Alex Rodriguez
Mike Schmidt
Rickey Henderson
Barry Bonds

Note that Peter King was born in 1957, and if you want to use 18 as the cut off for adult instead of 23 as I used simply to get a round number, you could include Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson and Brooks Robinson.

Oh and there’s about 10 or so pitchers as well.

by Matthew on Aug 26, 2009 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Lou Whitaker?

I didnt know Lou Whitaker was that good! Awesome. I always liked him as a wee lad.

by Slica on Aug 26, 2009 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

Oh and for the record.

Robin Yount was the man. Prolly my 3rd favorite all time.

by Slica on Aug 26, 2009 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Didn't even try to spell Yastrzemski, eh?

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Aug 26, 2009 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Tim Rainer?

Only kidding.

[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]

by bluemax on Aug 26, 2009 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think your not giving Jeter enough credit

He still has at least a few years to go, and you can’t discount his performance in the postseason when talking about his overall value.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 26, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Quantify his performance in the postseason.

Is it better than his performance in the regular season? By how much? Is it better than postseason performances by anybody on Matthew’s list above?

Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.

by pdb on Aug 26, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

His career postseason WAR is about 5

Based on maintaining a similar high wOBA in the postseason as in the regular season, when everyone else’s drops. That’s an allstar season right there, and I suspect that you should weight postseason performance higher than the regular season.

I haven’t checked the rest of the guys on the list, but I know that Jeter has been one of the best playoff performers of all time.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 26, 2009 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why should you weight postseason performance higher?

That’s a genuine question, not snark – I’m not sure why you would.

Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.

by pdb on Aug 26, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why?

I could see the case of adjusting his post season performance to a league average players’ opportunities, but performance in the post season is definitely more valuable than in the regular season.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 26, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

What acblue said

Also, postseason performance is more important to winning the world series, which is the ultimate goal.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 26, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Postseason Jeter has been pretty much the same as Regular Season Jeter.

Career: .317/.387/.460
Postseason: .309/.377/.469

That’s not a knock — those are good numbers — and it’s true that most players hit worse in the playoffs, but the idea that he had some superhuman power in the postseason appears to be based on one or two great series.

by Teej on Aug 26, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Honest question:

Is Jeter a Hall of Famer if he played his whole career in, say, Colorado — and only reached the playoffs three or four times? I think yes, but I suck at HOF evaluation, so who knows. He’s been a damn fine hitter for a very long time, and while he may have sucked defensively for a shortstop, he was still good enough to be a below-average shortstop.

by Teej on Aug 26, 2009 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

The league average wOBA in the regular season is about .335

In the postseason, it’s about .310. That means that maintaining a similar performance in the postseason as in the regular season is quite a feat.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 26, 2009 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

So?

It’s still value.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 26, 2009 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

If a player for his career bats better in high leverage situations

than normal, was he lucky? Maybe, but he still provided value.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 26, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

But he wasn't any better.

You don’t use WPA to figure out how good someone was.

by Graham MacAree on Aug 26, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

A player who "steps up in the clutch"

Whether it is a small sample size abberation or not, still provided more value to his team that someone who didn’t.

I believe that value should be considered when discussing a players career.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 26, 2009 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

No I don't
A player who “steps up in the clutch”, whether it is a small sample size abberation or not, still provided more value to his team that someone who didn’t.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 26, 2009 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, he's saying value should be considered for things like the HOF

and not leaving it up purely to true-talent measures. This can’t be the first time you’ve encountered that argument.
As it’s a HOF argument, my eyes are glazing over, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for that purpose. I don’t really know what the HOF is FOR, so maybe it’s there to reward players for talent+value or something. Seems fair enough.

by marc w on Aug 26, 2009 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right, right, sorry -

My point is that vep’s argument is essentially the same type of argument that gets thrown around in HOF discussions. The idea that value means more than true-talent, the importance of post-season performance and all of that.
That’s fine; we know the measuring stick he’s using, and we know the measuring stick you’re using. For his purpose, his methodology may be better. It is also not refuting at all what matthew said. Which is also fine.

I see we may be moving into clutch/SSS issues, so I maybe way off base here….

by marc w on Aug 26, 2009 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fine, but many, many people don't define 'best' in the same way

and that’s the heart of this disagreement.
What gets tricky is when people aren’t aware that they’re conflating value with true-talent, or actively deny that they’re doing so. In this case, it’s pretty out in the open, so whatever.

by marc w on Aug 26, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

No,

I thought just listing off every player with a career WAR higher than Jeter’s is 100% the right solution. It wasn’t hyperbole at all.

by Matthew on Aug 26, 2009 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Preaching to the choir

Anyone who would read something that statistically shows how Derek Jeter isn’t the best player of the past 20 years already agrees with you. If they don’t, they’ll argue with you by using words like “clutch,” “leader,” and “winner.” Don’t waste your time on those people.

by Schaefer on Aug 26, 2009 8:45 AM PDT reply actions  

Well

His clutch hitting is worth AT LEAST 50 wins. His looks, another 20 or 30, lets say 25. His hustle, another say 40 wins. The RINGZZZZZZ!!!!® are at least another 100 wins. That makes him AT LEAST a 277 win player. Barry Bonds used roids, so that’s -200 wins if he wasnt, or -28.6 below replacement!!!

by chrisisasavage on Aug 27, 2009 7:49 AM PDT reply actions  

To be fair

Peter King explicitly states that he values things Jeter does “besides hitting and fielding”. Now, those could be great reasons to value Jeter as a human being (perhaps he adopts helpless kittens, or is great in the sack), but they seem like a pretty poor argument for his being “good at baseball”. I’m just saying, Peter King may think he’s saying Jeter is the baseball player, but he’s really making an argument for “Jeter is the best guy at being awesome”

by el generico on Aug 27, 2009 11:53 AM PDT reply actions  

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