43-39, Game Notes
It would've been really easy to lose this game. No matter what the players might say about how they look at every game the same way, and how last week's trip was no different than any other, everybody knew it. Everybody in the clubhouse knew what they were up against in LA, New York, and Boston, and so, after putting so much energy into making a nightmarish trip a successful one, it would've been easy for the M's to come home and suffer a letdown. Hell, not only were they probably exhausted, but playing Baltimore doesn't really rev the engine quite like playing one of the beasts. I know I was having trouble getting amped. So to come out and put together a winning effort that at no point felt all that uneasy - that either says a lot about the M's or a lot about the O's, but winning like this was exactly what this team needed to do, and it puts my mind at ease. Forget about a letdown. If this team stumbles, it'll be independent of the most recent road trip, which means that we can now officially put what we thought would be a nine-game stretch of devastation in the books as an absolute, unquestionable success.
That's amazing.
- It's a funny thing about one-hitters - the longer they last, the worse you feel when they're over. Washburn only allowed the one single - Baltimore's only baserunner of the game - but because it happened in the fourth, superstition never had time to get involved, and come the final out, we were left to reflect not on a missed opportunity, but on a brilliantly-pitched game. I mean, yeah, everyone's going to wonder "what if?" about Markakis' liner, but because it was a clean hit that happened so early in the game, there was never any disappointment. For two hours and nine minutes, we just got to sit back and enjoy watching the Mariners make the Orioles look like the Mariners.
I didn't actually think Washburn looked that sharp in the early innings. He fell behind six of the first eight hitters he faced, and five of the Orioles' first 14 batters hit line drives. Even Dave Sims noted that Baltimore was hitting the ball on the nose, and they were just finding gloves. But as the second half of the game rolled around, Jarrod settled into one of those Mark Buehrle grooves where he knew where he was throwing the ball, and worked with a tempo that kept everyone comfortable but the guy at the plate. In the seventh and eighth innings, he got through Adam Jones, Nick Markakis, Aubrey Huff, and Ty Wigginton on six pitches. Washburn was dealing in true Ryan Franklin fashion, but the difference between Washburn and Franklin is that when Washburn is going well, he inspires confidence in the viewer. By the end of the game, I was fully on board. This was Jarrod Washburn's night, and no one was going to ruin it.
That was about as well-pitched a three-strikeout complete game as any you're going to see. It's important to note that Washburn still doesn't have a good tRA, and has been generating better results than we can expect to see in the future, but for right now, nine innings are nine innings. With Bedard going on a pitch count tomorrow, I don't know that Jarrod could've had better timing. - On two occasions tonight, Ryan Langerhans came within a few feet of leaving the yard to left-center field. In the sixth he lifted a deep fly ball that Nolan Reimold played into a double off the wall, and an inning later he hit another to around the same area with the bases loaded for a sac fly. Those are fly balls that leave a lot of other stadiums, and they serve as a reminder that he's not just another light-hitting fourth outfielder masquerading as a regular. Langerhans is a powerful man whose problem has always been making the right contact, and when he makes it, he can hit the ball a long way. Of course, power to the opposite field isn't exactly what we want out of our lefties in Safeco, but it's cool to see that Langerhans has that capability nonetheless. I know a lot of you are bummed about Wlad losing his playing time, but even the most devoted Balentien supporter has to admit that Langerhans is intriguing. And since he's still arbitration-eligible for a couple more years, a good showing here means he could offer some insurance next season should Saunders struggle, which is something not a lot of people have talked about.
- Russell Branyan hit his latest mammoth home run on a fastball outside off the plate. Branyan has actually hit a number of his home runs on fastballs outside off the plate. It's weird to say about a guy who strikes out so often, but Branyan has pretty good plate coverage, in that he's capable of going deep on a pitch anywhere in or around the zone. He definitely seems to have a preference for getting his arms extended on pitches away, though. I think Branyan might be one of those rare lefties I think about pitching in instead of away. Pitching him away must be terrifying.
- Actually, I wonder what it's like to face an all-or-nothing guy like Branyan. A pitcher knows he's an easy strikeout, which is good for the mindset, but he also knows that a 500 foot homer is a distinct possibility, which makes you nervous. Is a pitcher facing Branyan more excited or more uneasy than he is when facing a league-average hitter?
- Even during this little hot streak or whatever the hell it is that he's on, Ronny Cedeno is still perfectly capable of swinging like a damn retard. Today he swung seven times, missing with four of them, and for good measure whiffed on a squeeze opportunity on a fastball at the thigh. After careful consideration of his appearance through these first three months, I'm going to think of his current .491 OPS as the OPS an MLB team could expect if they called up a random little leaguer. If Cedeno can take a little league approach and little league swings against Major League pitching and still OPS .491, then by Jove, why couldn't anyone else? This makes Rob Johnson's .584 OPS a wee bit underwhelming.
- Since falling head-first into regular playing time a week ago, Chris Woodward has hit an almost completely empty .280, but that empty .280 includes things like his barehand stop and bases-loaded double tonight. The double essentially clinched the game, and the barehand on Adam Jones after ranging over a few nautical miles to his left was something out of the Beltre playbook. Woodward isn't a good player, and he's only playing now because the M's need someone to fill in while they scour the league for solutions, but the neat thing about small sample sizes is that anything can happen, and tonight, Woodward was a valuable player. While they look for someone else, the M's don't need Chris Woodward to be a better player than he is. They just need him to look like it. Tonight, he did a good job.
- I wonder how many times a batter has to foul a pitch a foot inside off his ankle before he stops chasing that pitch.
-
Erik Bedard on a pitch count tomorrow. It seems like there's something important going on with this team every day. I'm not 100% positive but I think that's good.
2 recs |
651 comments
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Comments
Oh, Dave.
My Mariners blog - SodoMojo Twitter Feed
by gregrabble on Jul 7, 2009 1:00 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I am so glad you included the picture of Sims and the hat.
The Rise of a Superstar:Justin Upton-.425 wOBA, 21 years old.
by Goose on Jul 7, 2009 1:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
With that hat
I kind of expected Dave to issue a warning about non payment to his how during the broadcast
by greg briley on Jul 7, 2009 7:22 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I think that hat need to appear on every players head.
I want to see Jr. in it.
or Corky.
by msb on Jul 7, 2009 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I expected him to go golfing with Bing Crosby at Pebble Beach
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Notes from the Safe
*Ronny’s at-bat music, at least tonight, was “That’s What You Get” by Paramore. Now, I’m a sucker for chick bands and I actually like Paramore (ducks), but as your at-bat music in the major leagues? Come on Ronny, get some real music. And if he didn’t actually choose it and the random dude in the booth picked it, come on random dude in the booth. Don’t do that to Ronny while he’s currently hitting below the Mendoza line. Give yourself/him some real music.
*Really no electricity in the stadium, since the hit came in the 4th, but by the end I was floating. I have to say this was the best game I’ve seen in person. Note that I’m a new Ms fan (3 years as of a few weeks ago), so I don’t have a lot of history, but witnessing the first 1-hitter by an Ms pitcher in Safeco was pretty cool. Jarrod may be pitching way over his head, but this was fun to watch. Now if I never see a Felix no-hitter in my life at Safeco, I’ll feel robbed.
*I felt like Washburn’s curveball didn’t get enough credit on the postgame show, so when I called in I mentioned it. He was throwing it for strikes all night long, in a lot of counts (at least 2 first pitches that I remember). It sure as hell doesn’t have a lot of break, and is a lollipop curve if I understand the term correctly, but he was locating it and they weren’t hitting it, and it was fun to watch drop in there.
*Woody’s barehand grab and throw to first was Betre-esque, no doubt about it. It was pretty to watch.
*In the top of the 9th while the players warmed up, they played “The Distance” by Cake, which was a nice touch. Can’t remember off hand if I’ve seen a CG at Safeco before, but I thought that was cool.
*They were replaying the game at Collins Pub when I dropped in after the game for a few beers, which was fun. I had to leave after the 8th because they were closing (only thing I dislike about Collins, they close early all the time), but the game was so short it was cool to see a lot of it again in TV mode. And the Watermelon Wheat was amazing, if you like fruity beers like me. Really, it was like a watermelon jolly rancher dropped in a nice wheat beer, except you know, actually made to taste good. Mmmmmmmmm.
by appleshampoo on Jul 7, 2009 1:11 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I remember seeing Washburn pitch a similar CG shutout in person against the Yankees a couple years ago.
It’s surprising how Washburn can pull starts like these out of his ass sometimes. It’s almost like he will pitch below average (probably more average/above average this year) most of the time, then pitch an ace-like game every once in a blue moon.
2009 Safeco Field Record: 4-0 ; Overall Safeco Field Record: 8-4
by Fin on Jul 7, 2009 2:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was my first ever baseball game in person
And it was awesome,although it was 8ip not a SHO,which is fine by me because it meant that JJ came in for the save.
I was at Shea for the Felix-Slam!
Personal M's record: 5-4.
by EnglishMariner on Jul 7, 2009 3:43 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Oooo!
Where is Collins Pub, por favor?
~I'm on the DA~
by section331 on Jul 7, 2009 6:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the bottom of Smith Tower
on Second Ave
by gustafm on Jul 7, 2009 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you say someones batting average is empty what exactly does that mean?
That he’s getting hits and not driving runners or is a sabermetrics statistic involved?
by russak on Jul 7, 2009 1:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it's just
Not a high OBP or SLG, which means they’re like Yuni or Vidro-roughly .300 average but a terrible hitter.
by Fuckmikereilly on Jul 7, 2009 1:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, nothing but batting average
no power or walks.
by The Ancient Mariner on Jul 7, 2009 7:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What a nice game.
And hey, SBN finally added mobile commenting.
by ThundaPC on Jul 7, 2009 1:29 AM PDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Ooh, so you can
The mobile interface is excellent here, too.
Nice one SBN. We approve.
by MarkE on Jul 7, 2009 1:34 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
It sucks that it says via mobile because otherwise it could be a real face saver when embarassing typos are made.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 9:24 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Though my Blackberry has an outstanding spell checker,
I think a game thread would kill my Blackberry.
Racer X.
by InSpokane on Jul 7, 2009 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It only usually displays around 20 messages per page.
I was at Shea for the Felix-Slam!
Personal M's record: 5-4.
by EnglishMariner on Jul 7, 2009 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Testing this out.
The pages are loading quicker, too. Very nice update last night.
by Wilder. on Jul 7, 2009 9:40 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Another test here.
I am sitting in front of my laptop and my last comment didn’t auto-update (I had to refresh to see it).
Could someone please respond to this comment. I want to see if it will update after you do so.
by Wilder. on Jul 7, 2009 9:45 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Here you go
anything exciting happen?
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It didn't update on my laptop.
I refreshed via mobile and there you are. Sec 108’s comment did update below, though, so comments are loading fine.
by Wilder. on Jul 7, 2009 9:50 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Or maybe not.
Strange. I guess it makes sense when you comment from your phone the account on the computer becomes unassociated and you might as well not be logged in. Not a big deal considering you won’t be commenting from your phone when you are sitting in front of a computer… unless of course you want to pretend you are on the road or something.
by Wilder. on Jul 7, 2009 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so, comments from oneself will never auto-update
If you’re logged in on two browsers, you’ll never see comments pop up from yourself. The system assumes you don’t need to see your own comments as updates. I believe this has always been the case.
proud to be creative director for SB Nation
by sixfoot6 on Jul 7, 2009 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BUT I WANT TO TALK TO MYSELF DAMMIT
TALKING TO MYSELF ON THE BUS IS GETTING OLD AND I WANT TO TALK TO MYSELF ONLINE TOO.
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never tried two browsers at the same time.
I just figured maybe somebody commenting below would make it appear.
by Wilder. on Jul 7, 2009 10:56 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't able to get the reply button to work on my phone,
but that may be because my phone sucks.
by Sec 108 on Jul 7, 2009 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
bash it against the desk a few times, that oughta loosen it up
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
“Did you know you can comment on Lookout Landing from your phone or PDA? SB Nation has launched mobile commenting. Check it out next time you’re at the game or bar and have something to say.”
SBN appears to be promoting this.
by Taylor H on Jul 7, 2009 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're surprised they're promoting their own product?
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they don't let anyone know about the existence of something they spent time and money on,
how will people know to use it?
by abender20 on Jul 7, 2009 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Science!
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Awesome
Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.
by BrettJMiller on Jul 7, 2009 9:58 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
So
who goes away for Bedard? Seems like it isn’t so easy to send Corcoran or Olson away anymore…seems most likely that Sweeney will go to the DL.
by Fuckmikereilly on Jul 7, 2009 1:32 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hopefully the Angels
Don't believe the lies Bill!!!! look at the sparkly ERA!!! Sparkly, Sparkly!!! - McCovey Chronicles
by Trenchtown on Jul 7, 2009 1:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So a 13 man staff and a bench consisting of Wlad, Rob Johnson/Kenji, and Josh Wilson?
Seems like that would only exacerbate our problems. Just send down one of the bullpen arms, Corco, Lowe, and Sean White all need to learn to throw strikes, so why not do it in Tacoma?
by I Lick Squirrels on Jul 7, 2009 1:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, forgot about Shawn Kelley.
Hmm. I don’t think they’ll send down Lowe or White. Maybe Jakubauskas.
by Fuckmikereilly on Jul 7, 2009 2:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jakubaskas is my Elvis-ubaskas.
by greg briley on Jul 7, 2009 7:15 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Jakubauskas is not going anywhere.
Corco or White would go before Jak.
by Wilder. on Jul 7, 2009 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
my money would be on RCorc
He has been all kinds of inconsistent.
by greg briley on Jul 7, 2009 7:18 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Carp is still on the roster I believe
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jul 7, 2009 7:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If not Carp then Josh Wilson.
Who? Yeah, exactly.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jul 7, 2009 7:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, Carp went down for Kelley
Personally, I’d do Sweeney to the DL anyway, then send down Corcoran and bring up Shelton.
by The Ancient Mariner on Jul 7, 2009 7:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to Dave Cameron's analysis
probably Garrett Olson; he laid out the rotation and due to the All-Star break and the way our games are scheduled afterward, the M’s will be able to go with a four-man rotation for a few turns. He’s figuring Olson goes down to keep starting in Tacoma (so that he’s available and stretched out if we need a starter) while Vargas moves into the ’pen for a couple weeks.
Makes sense to me.
by The Ancient Mariner on Jul 7, 2009 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jeff, I just want to say thanks for these game summaries. Due to work and life I don't get to watch as many games as I would like, and these help.
Racer X.
by InSpokane on Jul 7, 2009 8:02 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
seriously
these are great. It never feels right when a game goes by without one.
by Snuffleupagus on Jul 7, 2009 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It feels a whole lot of not right when the M's take 2 of 3 in Boston without one
Less Jeff writing = wither LL
by lemonverbena on Jul 7, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Jarrod will never wash his hand again.
= Gold
Racer X.
by InSpokane on Jul 7, 2009 9:35 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually a sort of dullish brown eventually turning to black
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Woodward = WFBG?
That gamer’s effort, man … the effort …
David Ortiz > God
by brick Royl on Jul 7, 2009 10:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
BTW...
It was mentioned on the broadcast last night that the M’s have the best record in baseball since June 19th.
This signature space for rent.
by PositivePaul on Jul 7, 2009 10:27 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow. Why does it still feel like it's not that good?
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because of the Mariner history of having the other shoe drop right about now
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because we're still trailing two teams in the standings.
by Teej on Jul 7, 2009 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
SSS FTW
We’re tied for the best record in baseball since July 6th!
by PDXTai on Jul 7, 2009 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not only that, we're undefeated in that stretch
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's funny.
Were 11-5 since the 19th. But 13-6 since the 16th. Someone must have us beat going back three more days?
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This was only my Second game attended
Have always been a Royals fan until moved out to Seattle recently. Had been a Mariners fan a long time ago.
Last night was very cool to see, and since it was in person that was the best (?) pitching from a SP that I have ever witnessed.
(?)= only 3Ks, but with all the great D, the groundouts and flyouts were just sweet.
Washburn mowed down the 7th before i could finish using the restroom. That is efficiency!!!
soon to change name to, "The Not So Curious Case of Benjamin Bratt"
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Jul 7, 2009 10:48 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
After last nights game and this current stretch
We have to at least consider the possibility that in a 5 and 7 game series, when the 4 and 5 starters go to the bullpen, we’d match up as well as any team in terms of starting pitching. And if that’s true, we need to start thinking about trading some of our beloved prospects for a Jermaine Dye, or a Jack Wilson, or both, to finally make a run at this GD World Series.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 10:52 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Where the heck would we play Jermaine Dye?
by Rollo Tomasi on Jul 7, 2009 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I heard Kenny Lofton was looking for a gig, let's go after him too!
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have 5 pitchers that could start game 1!
by Robert on Jul 7, 2009 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, we have more than 50
there’s no reason we can’t call up Michael Pineda to start game 1
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you count Jamie Burke?
He’s still around.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What?
Is that you, Bavasi?
by Wilder. on Jul 7, 2009 11:00 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
So... is baseball one of the sports that Kenny knows?
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jul 7, 2009 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know that Jarrod Washburn is a below-average starting pitcher, right?
by Jeff on Jul 7, 2009 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tell me which teams #3 pitcher is better than Washburn?
Joe Saunders? Armando Galarraga? Wakefield/Penny/Smoltz? Andy Pettitte?
He’s got better numbers and is really pitching better than any of them.
I’m sorry but Dye’s got a .935 OPS, he’s helped other teams make it to the postseason and world series. I don’t know if he can play or is willing to play left, but if he is/can, those 10-15 homers he’s going to hit in the final two months of the season and playoffs would be very helpful.
How many stupid prospects have we tightly held onto that never panned out? Travis Blackley? Nageotte? Ramon Vazquez? Yeah, we’ve traded away some good ones, but given the depth we appear to have at catcher, I’m ready to move a Jeff Clement or an Adam Moore for a proven bat or a steady SS glove.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You need some help in understanding how to properly value baseball players.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Kenny Knows Sports.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if you are willing to listen, we are willing to help.
If you are, instead, going to refuse to listen to new information, then you will be constantly mocked.
In a nutshell, the above two sentences are what LL is about.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That and tickle parties.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I'm willing to listen to you tell me that I need help in understanding player values?
Fine, you think I’m an idiot because I made a comment about us needing to make a trade. I didn’t make any trade proposals, I just threw some names out there and said these are guys who could potentially help us out and let’s not subtract from out major league roster in doing that. BFD.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We already have many DHs already
There’s no place for Dye, and moving from Comiskey to Safeco would likely eat into his power
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I think you are an idiot because of the thought process that you said went into the players you listed
as potentially helping us out.
Seriously, I am not being vain here. We know baseball. This is not just a hobby, we are paid to know it.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kenny, if you take nothing else from this whole thing know that Matthew is correct here.
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is exactly the kind of attitude that will make people hate you.
The authors here know way more about baseball than you do (or I do, or pretty much everyone else here) and they have the credentials to prove it. To dismiss their criticism of your thought process out of hand is appallingly arrogant.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Listen, I'm pretty much BRAND NEW here.
I don’t know Matthew from any of you. You can take it as me thinking I’m smarter than everyone else here, but you’re just wrong. I don’t think I’m smarter than anyone here, I’m trying to be as cautious as possible when making comments.
All I am asking Matthew is “What do you mean?” You just said “we’re willing to help if you’re willing to listen”
I’m all ears, just explain to me why, just for arguments sake, why adding Jermaine Dye (and let’s say we claimed him off waivers for nothing) would hurt the Mariners.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your comment here
http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2009/7/6/940297/43-39-game-notes#17889983
in no ways convenes an attitude of sincerely asking for help.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But you suggested a player that has little to no value to us. If you had suggested a player that filled a need, say like a short stop, then maybe we would have given you more respect.
Racer X.
by InSpokane on Jul 7, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I said Jack Wilson. As many other writers around Seattle have.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And nobody is picking issue with that.
What got picked issue with was Dye playing LF, and your reasoning including the phrases “helped teams get into the playoffs before” and “10-15 home runs”
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
See, just saying that, you're telling me what you think I did wrong but not why it's wrong?
Look, I’m not Bob Costas or someone who’s just going to believe that sports is all magic. But I do put some weight into a player who has been to the playoffs a few times before.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I think you're going to have trouble finding very many people here who agree with you on that
and until you can give anyone a valid reason to agree with you, prepare to have that line of thinking criticized.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody here is happy to have Griffey and Sweeney?
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I sure as hell know that I am not.
Griffey, whatever. Sweeney sucks and should never have been on the roster.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish Sweeny's parents had practiced abstinence
by Robert on Jul 7, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone who practices abstinence fails now and then.
That’s why it’s practice.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or thinks that 2008 was a total disaster because of clubhouse attitude?
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2008 was a total disaster because of lack of talent and some bad luck.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was a total disaster because we kept fielding a bunch of no talent assclowns
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jose Vidro batting cleanup!
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the bunt-vacuum Miguel Cairo at first base!
by Teej on Jul 7, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But he can call the pitches from the bench!
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2008 was a disaster because we lost a lot.
by Robert on Jul 7, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, God would it be awesome to have someone like Strasburg in the bullpen in October
(this is not a draft a closer joke)
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fucking Oakland
We’d be sitting so pretty if we had Strasburg lined up for 2010
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Billy Beane is a crafty devil and played the scrubs in order to tank the series.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to clear up, I didn't mean disaster just because of bad attitudes. But I think in baseball when you come to the park bitching everyday, you're going to lose more often.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's football you're thinking of
you know, the one where teamwork actually is really important
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, I've never seen anyone give actual evidence of this.
The 2002 SF Giants hated each other and went to the WS.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And actually came fairly close to winning it.
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BUT THEY WERE DEFEATED BY THE ANGELS' HEART AND GRIT
What now, statlovers?!
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
(also the Angels hit like 5000% more homeruns than in the regular season)
But smallball!
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's still a mind game. So if Manny Ramirez wants to go out there and make his team worse everyday he can do it much easier than he can make them better.
Just like a Richie Sexson can or a Scott Spezio or any pitcher who decides “screw this team, we ain’t making the playoffs, I’m going to let the other team have a field day.”
You can’t do that in football or basketball where the other guys control the game just as much.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball players are way too competitive for that.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? All of them? Every single one? The "Black Sox" weren't to competitive for it.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a really bad argument.
Firstly, that was 1919. Secondly, the Black Sox happened because baseball was essentially a slave trade back then and Charlie Comiskey was one of the most miserly owners in baseball. The players were paid very little and had no incentive to win.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They were competitive
but they played a million years ago, made no money, and wanted to stick it to their owner
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stop believing the bullshit the media crams down your throat
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't claim any of what I said to be true, I'm just saying names that some people have mentioned before.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But you claim to believe it.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We sucked because we're terrible on leap years
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe that it has and does happen, but I am not saying that those three guys ever did.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We've had what 3 or 4 guys at least go on the DL because of psychological problems. Some of the players in baseball are crammed with steroids. There are 25 players playing for 30 teams and we're supposed to believe that none of them has ever decided to
have a bad day?
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, because a guy wakes up and thinks
“hey, you know what, I just don’t give a fuck today, and when people find out, I’ll lose my multi-million dollar job forever.”
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously there's no way to find out.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then stop putting forth the proposition that it's true.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those 'psychological problems' are 'teams getting rid of shitty players'
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe some, but what about Greinke?
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but a situation where a guy has a diagnosable medical disorder
is completely different than “hey this team’s psyche is messed up because player x won’t go out for drinks after the game with his teammates”
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno, I think Dontrelle might have lost it.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can you point to a single documented piece of evidence that
supports that any player in recent history decided to perform worse than he could because he hated his teammates or some shit?
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can you give any evidence that it's impossible for a player to not try hard on a given day?
Or we’re supposed to believe that BASEBALL PLAYERS play the game completely pure?
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The burden of proof is not on me. It's on you.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't need burden of proof for an opinion, as I've been saying that's what this is the whole time.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But if you argue that opinion with others, you need to back it up.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless you're just saying
“I think this, even though I have no good reason to do so.” In which case we’ll hopefully just ignore something so insubstantial, unless it’s really stupid.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Otherwise your opinion will be dissected
contrary to popular belief, there are wrong opinions – all the ones that fly directly in the face of established evidence.
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
I figured out of all the people commenting here, one person would say “Yes, it’s possible, though we have no way of knowing for sure.”
Not just a “gang up on the new guy and don’t agree with one thing he says and hopefully he’ll leave for good” type thing.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that's a good way to characterize this place.
Really endearing.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is ganging up on your opinions, not ganging up on you
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you think that's what we're doing you've never seen us actually do that.
This is an environment where we’re you are expected to defend your opinions and if you can’t do that, sorry.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We are not going to be tolerant of opinions that we disagree with.
We will force you to back them up. If you cannot handle that, there are other places on the internet to hang out.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if you can provide evidence to support your assertions, we will concede that you're probably right
it’s not a “gang up on opinions,” it’s “who can prove the strongest point?”
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
My only point is that its f’ing retarded to think that every player in baseball is a good old boy who will do whatever it takes and give 100 percent everyday to help his team win. And that out of those guys who don’t give 100 percent, some of them will decide that the guy pitching that day is an asshole so he’s going to miss a few catches, ground into some double plays, WHATEVER.
I never thought that any one little statement I ever said would turn into a long discussion about how “Kenny Doesn’t Know Sports” Jesus, I made that name like 15 years ago, I didn’t know I’d regret it someday.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So your opinion is this
Not every player tried hard all the time.
Therefore:
Players are deliberately tanking.
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My opinion
is that baseball is a team sport and it isn’t. It’s a game where players are affected by the guys around them, but at the same time, any one individual can tank it if he wants to and lose the game if he wants to. And that out of all these millionaires with major egos, I believe some don’t give a crap about winning. So if you management doesn’t “give me a new contract” or “trade me to New York” I’m going to screw us up for awhile.
These guys don’t work for the Peace Corps. They’re not heroes. They’re just baseball players.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I said above, I find this almost impossible to believe.
It is almost impossible to make it to the major leagues and being that much of a lazy ass or a crazy person couldn’t help your chances.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would be impossible to believe that Chris Woodward would do it
Because he only gets so many chances.
Yet if you’ve got talent, you’ll get as many chances as you want. Why does Sidney Ponson keep getting a job?
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"These guys don’t work for the Peace Corps. They’re not heroes."
This is a fairly ridiculous strawman.
If a player is deliberately tanking, it’s pretty easy to isolate his performance and remove him from the team. Ergo, it makes no sense for a player to tank unless he’s absolutely crazy and has no intention of continuing his baseball career.
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you believe that the Reds hitters were trying as hard to get in a hit in the ninth inning yesterday as they would be if the score was 1-0?
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Their average OPS when down by 21 runs in the 9th is higher than when down by 1 so I'll go with yes
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Facing shittier pitchers at that point!
But you knew that. Still had to say it.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or if we assume that they no longer gave a shit we can use this as an example of talent trumping effort
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And going back to my original comment about the 2008 Mariners..
is that July was like them being down 21 runs. they didn’t give a shit, they tanked it. They didn’t play up to their talent level, even if they weren’t all that talented to begin with, player play up to the level of talent around them and also play down to the level of talent around them.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Russell Branyan is surrounded by offensive retards and he's dominating.
Rob Johnson is surrounded by people who know how to play baseball and he still isn’t good.
by abender20 on Jul 7, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Russell Branyan is playing on a winning team in a pennant race.
Rob Johnson’s overall numbers aren’t good, but he’s gotten some key hits.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you've gone from baseball players don't all care about winning
To baseball players on the 2008 team realised they couldn’t win and tanked.
The worst players from that team no longer have a baseball career. Assuming they’re sane and like having an income, there is no good reason for them to not play hard each day.
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right. They all tried completely.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not the argument
the argument is “you must be able to prove that the Mariners dogged it in 2008.”
Graham neither said they dogged it or that they tried hard, only that it was much more unlikely that they were dogging it.
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So the players decided to play at less than 100% of their ability
for an entire three months of the season because the team sucked?
Is that what you are alleging? Yes or no?
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, how do you know this?
They underperfomed but there were plenty of players playing for contracts, a place in next year’s lineup, pride, etc. Adrian Beltre’s numbers last year were way better after the M’s were out of it than they were early in the season. And the team also played a lot of marginal minor league players after they were no longer in contention to see if there was anything of value there.
To claim that the team tanked late in the year simply because they didn’t perform as well as expected is just absurd.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Youre right its absurd
I take every word I’ve said today back.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Give me some reason that I should believe you.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone is right except me. I concede.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously, be less of a fucking baby or go away.
All anyone is asking for is something tangible and instead of offering that you’re acting like a fourth grader.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good. I am glad you finally see the massive errors in your ways.
Feel free to respond to me here if I am misrepresenting you as being 100% sincere in your above statement.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay then.
Whew, now we can all move on with our day.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So let me get this right
A person makes an opinion that everyone else disagrees with. That person then tries to think of ways to backup that opinion and after a few hours of not getting anywhere decides, “Okay, I’m wrong and I want to go on with my day” and before he gets a chance to explain that, you BLOCK him from lookoutlanding?
Call ME a baby? How mature is it to block a person for saying “Okay, youre right. Im wrong.”?
by Howisthatmature? on Jul 7, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Hello again, friend!
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was the passive-agressiveness of it all
if you just accept that we’re going to rip up baseless arguments, it’s not so bad
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you didn't say that you were wrong.
You were being sarcastic and passive agressive and really just a giant fucking baby about it.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because your response was patronizing and insincere.
by abender20 on Jul 7, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because you weren't eating crow at all
You were instead taking a bunch of passive aggressive snipes at the people who were asking you to back up your arguments with sound reasoning.
by OlSalty on Jul 7, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can I have the time back, please?
by NOLAmarinergirl on Jul 7, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Were you not entertained?
Although with that time back maybe I could actually get some work done.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I find it impossible to believe that players tank on purpose with any regularity.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I don't like one of my colleagues I'll just not show up to work
That’ll show them
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Graham, to be fair
all the baseball players show up. What he’s arguing is that you might do badly on something that he needs your participation to complete.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except in baseball we can measure individual performance
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, but those measurements can't really judge intention.
I side with you – I think that to make it to that level, anyone who is less than a total professional has been weeded out.
I was just pointing out that it might not have been the best analogy.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still think it's a fairly good one
It’s the equivalent of biting off your nose to spite your face
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Especially since baseball players
that get a whiff of a reputation for dogging it suffer from it for a long time.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What the hell ever happened to D'Angelo Jimenez?
by Jeff on Jul 7, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But they still had to dog it at one time or another to get that reputation, so it does happen.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a difference between trying to lose ball games
and not sprinting hard to first on an obvious out.
by abender20 on Jul 7, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you not get that "dogging it"
does not mean the same thing as malicious tanking? This boggles my mind that you equate the two.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't equate the two. You made a comment about dogging it. I replied.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
By connecting it to your previous statements about
players intentionally missing catches.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unlike a sport like basketball or soccer, maximum physical/cardiovascular effort does very little to help teams win in baseball.
You should run hard on ground balls, but it makes very little difference in the end.
by Decatur on Jul 7, 2009 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
But in both cases of baseball vs. work, not showing up is much more obvious to the outsider than screwing something up “on accident.”
Anyway, we’re just arguing semantics and agree on the main point of the argument.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
July 2, 2009 was not 15 years ago.
I’m worried about your perception of time. Perhaps it could imply some other issues you might want to get checked out.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Umm, I didn't just choose the name when I signed up for LL. Its from yahoo.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well that explains everything.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In my opinion, the sky is green.
I don’t need to prove it, it’s an opinion.
by Tube on Jul 7, 2009 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can we just skip ahead to the part where we conclude that we can't measure chemistry?
by Jeff on Jul 7, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's time to replace 'chemistry' with a different word
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Their Tickle+ is 126!
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that it's impossible to measure chemistry in any meaningful way
and we should stop counting it until something useful is discovered.
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude you totally can.

angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're arguing a positive
You’re the one who has to prove it
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have to evaluate players as a total package.
What they provide on offense, defense, on the payroll and in opportunity cost.
Phrases like “10-15 home runs” tell a misleading part of the story.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
From Matthew's post below:
Based on UZR samples, We’d expect Langerhans to be ~31 runs better per 150 games. Or about 15 runs better for the remaining half-season.
Dye’s offense would be about 10 runs better in a neutral park. But Safeco is not even close to neutral and would shrink that 10 runs to five at the most.
Assuming that playoff experience has any value at all do you think it will make up the ~10 run gap between Langerhans and Dye, not to mention the salary and trade costs?
by Nate Dogg on Jul 7, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with Dye is that he is an awful, awful defensive player
he plays in a bandbox in Chicago, and is right-handed, a poor fit for Safeco Field. Also, he has a huge monetary and prospect price tag, and the upgrade he would provide over even Griffey (seriously) would be so marginal as to not be worth it.
The team would be much better off upgrading at catcher or shortstop with a longer-term or cheaper solution than Jermaine Dye.
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All of them
Though Galaragga is having a crappy season
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You gotta be kidding me with Joe Saunders. He has one good season and now we're to believe he's that good?
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point isn't that Saunders is good, it's that Washburn isn't terribly good either
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it remotely possible that Wash has actually "figured something out"?
Or do his age and career stats make a regression inevitable. This would seem to preclude the Jamie Moyers and Tim Wakefields of the world, rare as they are.
by lemonverbena on Jul 7, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Washburn's improvement this year appears to be courtesy of Gutierrez and Chavez
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But like I was pointing out with Millwood, as long as he's a Mariner, the defense comes with him
and thus he can be an effective pitcher for us.
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a really circumspect way to talk about players.
Best to only deal with the areas they control.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I know, in terms of evaluating Washburn, he hasn't been great
I guess I’m just saying that as long as he’s a Mariner, we can expect him to outperform his peripherals due to the defense.
It’s not that he’s better or anything, but as long as we’re evaluating the Mariners as a whole, Washburn + defense can be an effective combination for us.
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ERA is not a measure of pitcher performance
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know, I'm saying that I'm not evaluating him individually since all the metric(s) that matter say he's been average to bad
but that he’s useful as long as he has a defense with him, which he does now.
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that's the defense being useful, not Washburn.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I guess what I should have said is that with a useful defense, Jarrod Washburn isn’t that big of a liability to the team’s chances to win as a whole.
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
An important distinction
I still will be happy if we move Wash for something short- and long-term useful, but as we stay in race, it seems less and less likely that Z would pull the trigger.
by lemonverbena on Jul 7, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are moves we could make with Wash that would help the team win this year
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, but:
I think Z and any other GM tends to shy away from trading a central role player (mid-rotation starter) in the thick of a pennant chase, and gravitates towards trading prospects for somebody that improves the team without disrupting its current success.
by lemonverbena on Jul 7, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We don't really have any idea what Z's going to do
I don’t think anything’s off the table at this point.
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But anyone + our defense would be a good combo.
by Teej on Jul 7, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not pitchers who give up a lot of HR.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm. Not really sure...
Our infield defense is way worse than our OF defense. A flyball-tending pitcher would probably fare equally well with another flyballer, but comparing a groundballer to a flyballer you might lose a little bit there.
Except Yuni’s on the DL and that helps the IF defense, so…
This signature space for rent.
by PositivePaul on Jul 7, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Beltre's out and that hurts it
Left-handed flyballers are perfect for our current roster and park
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is what I was trying to say in the first place =(
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey I was just talking about this last night.
I need to dump the decimal point and go with Kermit Knows Baseball, and Shit.
by Kermit. on Jul 7, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
But the defence has nothing to do with his pitching so how does that make him an effective pitcher?
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well he's been effective due to the defense, since he's a flyball guy
not that he’s been good, but in circumstance, he’s useful to this particular team.
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He does appear to have figured something out
but he is still not very useful. He has just managed to be as valuable as 2006 Jarrod Washburn
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
105 innings is still 105 innings. Yes, defense is a big part to it but even then you can't guarantee that another starter in his place will be as good just because of defense.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You seem to be evaluating pitchers based on ERA.
Otherwise, I do not know why you mention the defense.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because EVERYBODY here is mentioning defense? did I say ERA? I feel like people are trying to push me to numbers that they think I would use because they have no value to people around here and therefore - I'm an idiot.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we're having an entirely different discussion in this subthread
and that’s whether or not we should say Washburn is useful or that he’s a good fit for our roster.
Also, we seem to have found a consensus.
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Best not to wear your heart on your sleeve in these parts
Your point will be torn limb-from-limb, but that’s just the process. Don’t take it personally.
by lemonverbena on Jul 7, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A consistent frontline starter seems pretty useful to me
Just seems like all we talk about is his performance relative to trade value, meanwhile the M’s are in the thick of the pennant race despite Bedard, Morrow, etc.
by lemonverbena on Jul 7, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2006 Jarrod Washburn was not a front line starter.
He was slightly below average.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, he's not a frontline starter
He’s a #4 in a park suited for him with an all-world outfield behind him
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I heard you on KJR or ESPN radio the other day.
by katal on Jul 7, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've decieded that I will now start calling Softy to reap praise on Bavasi for building the majority of this team and being forced out a year too early.
by Robert on Jul 7, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's the underappreciated hero in all this.
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't wait for TBS to interview him during the WS
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would TBS be interviewing him during the World Series if it is going to be played on Fox?
by Robert on Jul 7, 2009 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fox could interview the dingle berries hanging from Buzzie Bavasi's long forgotten black asshole
And as long as the Mariners were playing the in the WS, I would deep throat the rabbit ears on the back of the TV during it.
by Robert on Jul 7, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I had a customer the other week that told me to complain until I got them to turn back on the analog signal
by Robert on Jul 7, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is this the first time you have written your [zomg forbidden]?
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How fucking retarded do you have to be to blame the global digital switchover on a lowly Radio Shack employee.
by Robert on Jul 7, 2009 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, most people are shocked my new tv can pick up over the air signals
and assume the switchover means the end of non-cable television so I do not know.
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Random poll of LL
we win the World Series this year and Erik Bedard is the key, as well as the rest of the playoffs, pitching three great games for us. He then leaves for Type-B compensation. Adam Jones ends up in the Hall of Fame.
Worth it?
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Worth it if Erik Bedard never throws another pitch because you can
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No because the thought process was still retarded and it's impossible to know what happens if we don't get Bedard.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
While I agree that I'll be forever angry at the thought process, the goal afterall is to compete and win.
I wouldn’t forgive the move, but I’d be OK with the outcome that came as a result of the firing of Bavasi and the Putz trade and everything else that cascaded.
by abender20 on Jul 7, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It wasn't it worth it because it caused me a tremendous amount if misery
and if we win the WS this year I am not willing to say it’s because we have Erik Bedard.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You absolutely can't give the credit to the Bedard move.
It’s also hard to say if that move was the final nail in the coffin for Bavasi.
by abender20 on Jul 7, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not defending the thought process, but the question is more "is it worth it to you to give up an eventual HOF-er plus more for a single World Championship?"
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we are living in a universe where you can irrefutably say that Bedard is the only reason we were able to win the WS, then yes, it was probably worth it.
But I don’t think he would be and such a world does not exist.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a freaking heartbeat.
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh man oh man.
Washburn has gotten good results largely because of defense and luck. His defense independent numbers aren’t good.
OPS isn’t really all that great of a stat in terms of overall offensive evaluation, but he has hit fairly well you’re correct. The problem is that he gives a ton of that value back on defense. Endy Chavez has been worth nearly as many wins as Dye and he’s played far, far less.
And you obviously don’t understand how important it is to have young, cheap players on club control.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His FIP is under 4. Better than most major leaguers.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
While it's good that you're using FIP instead of ERA,
FIP has a big problem in that it completely ignores batted ball profiles. Now that we have reasonable play-by-play data, we should use that information to help us evaluate pitchers better, and this is what tRA does.
This year, Washburn’s batted ball profile hasn’t been good, and he’s been lucky on HR/FB ratio. These are things that make him look good by FIP, but not by tRA, which is the superior metric at this point.
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I might
Statements like
He’s got better numbers and is really pitching better than any of them.
Don’t really carry a lot of weight around here unless you actually cite the numbers. And by “numbers”, also understand that some nymbers are more valuable than others. And when you ask questions like
Tell me which teams #3 pitcher is better than Washburn?
You’ll get a lot of answers, because there are a lot of answers. And they’re all correct. In short, this is not a place where you can pull up a stool, outshout your neighbor, and expect to last – this place is serious about its stats, and about interpreting them correctly.
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And also, RE: prospects that never panned out:
Adam Jones, Asbrubal Cabrera, Shin Soo Choo, Kameron Mickolio, and a bunch of other dudes we traded away for garbage.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Choo trade was defensible but God damn it honks he off
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had no problem with the Choo trade because it didn't look like he would become the player he has and we got something we needed
but the point remains that he was a prospect that panned out.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just curious, but why did Choo look like a likely bust in 2006?
His minor league track record was one of consistent .850ish OPS, lots of stolen bases, had a reasonable K-rate, and he was only 23. Was his defense scouted as being terrible?
by Decatur on Jul 7, 2009 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't field in center, didn't hit enough for a corner
really bad splits.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Rafael Soriano trade pissed me off the most
Racer X.
by InSpokane on Jul 7, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Cabrera trade was the worst in retrospect in terms of value.
But yes, the Soriano trade pisses me off more.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was not talking about player value, just outrage
Soriano for Ho-ram. Grrrr
Racer X.
by InSpokane on Jul 7, 2009 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still moan every time I see Varitek in a Boston uniform
Lowe and Varitek for Heathcliff Slocumb. Arrrrrrrrgh
by lemonverbena on Jul 7, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
GOOD GRAVY WHAT THE HELL REY QUINONES!!!!
This signature space for rent.
by PositivePaul on Jul 7, 2009 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like to think of that trade as "Lowe, Varitek, and Bragg for Slocumb and Moyer"
Obviously it didn’t actually happen that way, but it does make me feel better.
by katal on Jul 7, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, or Slocumb for Bragg
And Lowe/Tek for Moyer…
But still, even if you consider a HUGE blockbuster:
Putz, Green, Reed, Valbuena, Tillman, Butler, Sherrill, Jones and Morse,
for
Gutz, Cleto, Carp, Vargas, Cabrera, Olson, Chavez, Cedeno, Bedard, and Langerhans
I’m not sure the balance has swayed back yet. Need to trade Washburn for someone shiny to yin that yang.
This signature space for rent.
by PositivePaul on Jul 7, 2009 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im not talking about the ones we traded away, I'm talking about all the ones we didn't. and then they wind up like Lastings Milledge or Pokey Reese - being let go for practically nothing when their original teams could've gotten a lot in return for them.
Not realizing that sometimes a players peak value is when they’re in the minors.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Top prospects pan out much more often then they do not
And when you trade them away, you open your team up to the possibility a 2004-2008 style spell where the well goes dry.
Seriously, good young players are the most valuable asset in baseball.
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your point is that we should trade our prospects for veterans because they never pan out, correct?
My point is that we’ve had plenty of prospects turn into useful players, but we don’t have them any more because we traded them for veterans.
Seriously, look at the rest of the league and the teams that have had lon, sustained periods of success. Throw out the Yankees and Red Sox for payroll reasons (although the Red Sox have plenty of their former prospects in their everyday lineup) and the common thread is that they have very rarely traded their most valuable prospects for veterans and have done an excellent job of building around cost controlled players. That is how you stay good.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I bet the wish they had a do over on the Hanley trade
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
On the other hand, Beckett was key in 2007.
by katal on Jul 7, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, on the other hand
Hanley would be the best player in the league
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
World Series Win>>Unknown.
Obviously in terms of cost and WAR and talent and things like that it was a poor trade. But I would trade our entire farm system for a WS if it were possible.
That is the reason everyone plays the game. That, and millions of dollars.
Go Nova
by dbroncos31 on Jul 7, 2009 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather be the Braves than the Marlins
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
But the Braves won in 1995. If you offered me 12 straight AL West titles but no WS wins or 14 years in which we made the playoffs 1 time and won the WS, I would probably take the WS title. If you think about it, we’ve already had 7 straight years without a playoff game. And the fact that we have never even made a WS while I’ve seen the Yankees win 4 right in front of me makes me yearn for that special and glorious day when Ichior and Felix get to hold up the World Series trophy.
Go Nova
by dbroncos31 on Jul 7, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we've had this thread before
but I would rather be good for a long time and never win the WS than win one WS and suck balls the rest of the time.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it's a tough question.
Honestly I’m just pumped that we might get meaningful September baseball again. Hopefully it’s not like 2007.
And maybe this is the beginning of a period in which we’re good every year AND win the WS a couple times. Yeah, that sounds good
Go Nova
by dbroncos31 on Jul 7, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather have 116 than a World Series
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel this way now but I didn't in November of 2001
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jeff nailed it earlier during ST
You win a championship and you’re happy for one month? two? And then the process starts over again. A championship should be the goal, but it’s not worth selling your soul for because then what? There’s still baseball to be played.
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remain unconvinced of this
I think it becomes a diminishing returns situation.
The first one you win is worth whatever it takes to get it – NCAA scandals, trading HOF players, selling your would, etc.
After that, you want to be successful for a long period of time because you’ve already been to the top and now you want to stay there as long as possible.
That’s how I look at it, at least. I’m still waiting for one of the four teams I care about to win it all.
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I felt this way until the Seahawks lost the Super Bowl.
Yeah, it still hurts to think about it, but life goes on. 2008 was the worst experience of my life as a sports fan, and I’m not sure anything is worth that.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I'm just weird because I wanted a piece of the Mets more than anything
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same goes for the Yankees
The better win the division and not the WC, because I want to clinch on their field
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely not
I want our first pennant to be clinched at home.
by Robert on Jul 7, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Says the person who lives in Seattle
You can’t see the other fans cry if you are at home
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taking the castle is more fun
Plus you can still win the WS at home
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe it's because I've never had a team win on the road
But I’ve been part of two championship celebrations and the emotion that I got from being there is more addicting than any drug. It’s the single thing that I work for as a sports fan.
by Robert on Jul 7, 2009 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That and some sweet Felix-lovin'.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Puppies can't be expected to understand grammar.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point is just because Poochie lives in Spokane doesn't mean the greatest day of our lives needs to be dampened
by Robert on Jul 7, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, this totally should have read "selling your *soul*"
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
I feel weird because technically I have seen my teams win 6 titles in my lifetime (Broncos 97-98, Lakers 00-02, 09), but I don’t count any of them except for ‘09. I was 8 years old when the Broncos first won; I had no idea what it really meant. And I liked the Lakers but didn’t really follow basketball until I went to Villanova and started really watching it. Even with the 1 title I know I’m luckier than most people. But what I want to see more than anything (other than a Nova NCAA title while I’m still there) is a Mariners or Flyers championship because both teams have suffered such long droughts and have come ohsoclose so many times.
Watching the Phillies win the WS last year was really weird. I was rooting for them (I love the Rays but a family friend in a minority owner of the Phils so wooo! free tix) and I was happy they won, but watching all the Phillie fans go wild made me extremely jealous. I cannot wait for the day when we’re in the WS and I spend all the money to my name to come to Seattle for Game 7 (Felix vs. Pineiro) and party in the streets for 4 days.
Go Nova
by dbroncos31 on Jul 7, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we face Pineiro in game 7 we will probably lose as he is a ridiculously good right handed ground ball pitcher
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was at the game against the Mets with the 22 GB outs.
I have never seen anything like that before and likely never will again.
First 20 batters: 1 K, 1 pop out, 18 groundballs
Go Nova
by dbroncos31 on Jul 7, 2009 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's like
would you rather be a fan of Miami or Ohio State this decade?
OSU has been consistently awesome in the regular season, lucked their way to 1 championship and lucked their way to 2 other championship games in which they got pasted.
Miami had two decent years, won a championship against a team that didn’t deserve to be there and got jobbed out of another, and then fell off the map.
[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]
by bluemax on Jul 7, 2009 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also NCAA death penalties
were not worth a couple of trips to the Sweet 16 :(
[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]
by bluemax on Jul 7, 2009 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that's a good example had they won it all the year they had Mayo
is it worth it to win a national title if you know you’re getting sanctioned afterwards? (let’s pretend in this world they got to keep the title).
So since usc has already won in football, would it worth it to you now to get sanctioned in football in exchange for another one?
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although that's somewhat of a rocky example, as both teams in question got 1 championship.
by abender20 on Jul 7, 2009 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about Tennessee then?
They won the first BCS title 11 years ago and haven’t done shit nationally since.
[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]
by bluemax on Jul 7, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Being Tennessee is fate worse than death.
Nothing sucks like the Big Orange.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miami because fuck OSU
Also the players were much better pros and in most cases way more talented.
Andy Randy Shannon has the program on a rebound
Go Nova
by dbroncos31 on Jul 7, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Miami had better than 2 decent years. They were really good in ‘00, one of the better teams of all-time in ’01, great in ’02, and then were good in ’03 before dropping to decent in ’04/’05.
From ’00 to ’03, they were 46-4, with their worst record being 11-2. That was an amazing run.
Go Nova
by dbroncos31 on Jul 7, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
11-2 is a bad season in college football
[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]
by bluemax on Jul 7, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And?
Where I went to school 11-2 is most likely a failed season.
[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]
by bluemax on Jul 7, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but you pay your players and don't care if they can't read or write.
by abender20 on Jul 7, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our all american offensive lineman
is getting an MBA!
[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]
by bluemax on Jul 7, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't make me dig up NCAA academic progress records
[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]
by bluemax on Jul 7, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Reggie Bush is the only player with evidence of taking money and he didn’t take it from anyone connected to the university.
As for basketball, I don’t see how we are any less shady or ambivalent about learning than any other school in the country.
[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]
by bluemax on Jul 7, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Football and basketball are different things!
Everyone is cheating in hoops. It’s the only way to keep the kids from going pro!
[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]
by bluemax on Jul 7, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying everyone isn't cheating in hoops
just that Davon Jefferson is a particularly egregious example of a guy who should have never been in college in the first place.
Renardo Sidney also comes to mind
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know my alma mater wasn't cheating at bball recruiting
because most of our team was Croatian and terrible.
by abender20 on Jul 7, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree
I wasn’t broken up about losing Sidney the guy had trouble written all over him.
[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]
by bluemax on Jul 7, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, two Davon Jeffersons at the same school?
What a coincidence.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
by Faux on Jul 7, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Somebody in LA go and give SB a shove to make him stop skipping.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or wait, is he still up here?
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh, it was a disappointment compared to the previous seasons,
but 11-2 with an Orange Bowl win is pretty good.
I wouldn’t call it a great season, but it was a very good one
Go Nova
by dbroncos31 on Jul 7, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not being serious.
[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]
by bluemax on Jul 7, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I figured, however
that season was a huge disappointment for the U. It’s ridiculous looking back after 3 bad years, but people were very upset that that team lost any games.
Go Nova
by dbroncos31 on Jul 7, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's how it is at a football factory
I started at USC in 01 when people were glad to be rid of He Who Can’t be Named and have a winning season.
It didn’t take long for the old sense of entitlement to creep up as soon as they had one undefeated season.
The reality is that it’s hard to actually go undefeated every year.
[DELETED ZOMG NO POLITICS]
by bluemax on Jul 7, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's like Yankees fans in 2003.
Making the World Series and losing was a failure as a season.
For comparison, if we are within 3 games of a playoff spot in mid-September, I will consider this season an unquestionable success. However, if the Lakers do not make the Western Finals next year I will be disappointed.
Go Nova
by dbroncos31 on Jul 7, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One title isn't worth a Pirates' style tenure of misery
My whole point is that they would have been better with Hanley then they would with Beckett not only that season, but several years after. The fact that they won with worse players is irrelevant
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually love prospects and minor leaguers as much as I love anything in baseball.
I obsess over our farm and I pray that in a couple of years Jack builds us one like Texas or Tampa Bay has now.
But I also look over at our neighbors in the division, the Angels, and thank god that they held onto Brandon Wood as long as they have and didn’t move him and some of their other guys when they had the chance.
I just don’t want any of our guys to turn out to be the next Felix Pie or in our case Balantien. i trust that Jack knows talent, I’m not worried about it.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're selectively taking prospects who didn't pan out though
That’s a weird way to make an argument that trading for veterans is a good idea, just like it’d be dumb of me to say that prospects always pan out and you should never consider trading them away
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And then we can trade Jones and Tillman for Erik Bedard
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 11:06 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Jah.
Tillman had a high ERA in High Desert, and Jones struggled when we occasionally gave him ABs during his 2007 call-up. Trading them for Bedard is a steal, because we all know that if you want to be a good playoff team, you need at least two aces in the rotation – that’s why we failed earlier this decade.
by katal on Jul 7, 2009 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No if you want a good team you need to draft a lot of closers
because it shortens the game!
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know this isn't how it works but I am able to handle the Bedard trade if I look at it as
Adam Jones and Chris Tillman for a shot at the 09 playoffs and Z’s new regime
by Robert on Jul 7, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually that's the best way to look at things.
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably better than imagining a Jones/Gutz/Ichiro outfield.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever. We have Langerhans now.
I already like him better than Adam Jones.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The moment Safeco starts selling Langerhans jersey-style t-shirts
is the moment I’m out $25. Thank you, Washington Nationals.
by katal on Jul 7, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know you meant it as a joke.
But that comment immediately took me back to one of my favorite threads of the year.
by katal on Jul 7, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Dye plays the outfield in Safeco, we can say farewell to our pitchers' confidence.
He’s still hitting, but he’s a mess with the glove. I’m inclined to think Langerhans would be more valuable for the rest of the season.
by Teej on Jul 7, 2009 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone preaches about sample sizes.
Yet we’re supposed to believe that Langerhans won’t regress to his career .233 ba?
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He probably will
But he’s +30 better on defense
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty close estimate there.
Based on UZR samples, We’d expect Langerhans to be ~31 runs better per 150 games. Or about 15 runs better for the remaining half-season.
Dye’s offense would be about 10 runs better in a neutral park. But Safeco is not even close to neutral and would shrink that 10 runs to five at the most.
Langerhans is the better player and that is not even getting into the fact of salary and that we already have Langerhans on our team now.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look. I regret throwing any name out there to begin with. Jermaine Dye especially.
My point was now is the time to go for it. All that anyone in Seattle has talked about is “if we’re making a trade, it’s going to involve our starting pitching” and nobody has addressed that if we are buyers we do actually have to move some of our prospects down on the farm. At least not from what I’ve read. And I’m saying that we need to find a SS or someone who’s going to at least come close to what Branyan is doing. Branyan is going to start approaching his career high in at-bats and games by August/September and nobody has really acknowledged that he COULD get tired. And if we lose Branyan, it’s over.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again. You are simply looking at it from an offensive point of view.
That’s wrong. And there’s no telling what we would have to move to get people.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Branyan has played full seasons in the minors, so that's not a concern
We’re not saying we shouldn’t try and “go for it”, we’re just saying that Dye would be a piss poor trade target
by Poochie on Jul 7, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that selling any key part of the future for success this year is a terrible idea.
I’m fine with trading role players or guys that don’t have a real place in the organization or whatever, but the idea that you have to go for it and dump your young players to compete is what got us into this mess in the first place.
by acblue on Jul 7, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably will
But hitting for average is not as important as OBP or slugging, both of which he is fairly good at. And he is pretty good at defense.
by OlSalty on Jul 7, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jermaine Dye isn't good
He isn’t. That’s all there is to it. Jermaine Dye would not be of realistic help to this baseball team.
by Jeff on Jul 7, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to jump on the pile
but the whole “a Jermaine Dye, a Jack Wilson” thing is the most annoying trend sports talk radio has ever created.
Just say “Jermaine Dye” or “Jack Wilson”. There is only one. Plus, hey, less typing!
by waldo rojas on Jul 7, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dave Sims looks like that guy in high school that didn't go to parties or talk to girls but knew how to juggle really well.
by waldo rojas on Jul 7, 2009 11:00 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Why does my C and my Z keep taking me back to that twitter button?
by NOLAmarinergirl on Jul 7, 2009 11:05 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
On desktop or mobile?
My desktop works fine. This is gonna sound stupid, but maybe click in the whitespace somewhere and then try C or Z – it could be that the focus is on the twitter button or something if you used it before. But that’s just a guess.
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A game summary has 400+ comments?
Well either somebody said something stupid, or a major roster move just went down.
The Rise of a Superstar:Justin Upton-.425 wOBA, 21 years old.
by Goose on Jul 7, 2009 12:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Whatever.
My comment was that the M’s have a good rotation for the playoffs and should make some moves by moving some minor league talent for some major league talent. SO SORRY.
by Kenny Knows Sports on Jul 7, 2009 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"SO SORRY."
Act more like a child throwing a passive-aggressive tantrum. Really, do it.
by Matthew on Jul 7, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love love love these summaries, they are full of awesome stats and make me laugh,
but after reading the entire thing, the only thing I can think of is how fucking funny that picture of Dave is. I laughed out loud for a good 2 minutes.
by Zwakamatsu on Jul 7, 2009 12:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
And also that big subthread has about 5 comments that should be up for best comment ever, ever.
Oh, and Langerhans is awesome. That is all.
by Zwakamatsu on Jul 7, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really want to read
but so afraid!
by Fuckmikereilly on Jul 7, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Something Graham said above made me think
Of this article by Jeff at the beginning of the season. So Jeff, do you think you undervalued how good our outfield defense would be, or is it largely luck?
by Sec 108 on Jul 7, 2009 12:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Jeff projecting a +40 outfield of Endy/Gutz/Ichiro was a touch conservative but pretty much spot on (they've been about Endy +20, Gutz +20, and Ichiro + 10 = +50) (and +40 with Langerhans, who's probably a +10 LF) instead of Endy)
Or do you mean he underestimated how much the D would help Washburn?
by Decatur on Jul 7, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He assumed an even distribution of how the outfield would help/had hurt Washburn in 09/08
That obviously hasn’t really been the case
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm thinking luck
Washburn has clearly benefited more than the rest of the staff. Plus, the defense isn’t the only reason his ERA is so good.
by Jeff on Jul 7, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ALW not as good at hitting as they used to be?
by waldo rojas on Jul 7, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Washburn will be on 710 shortly
Maybe he’ll talk about The Dolphin.
by msb on Jul 7, 2009 1:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That's got to be the gayest name for a pitch ever.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is the worst name for a pitch ever
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Should I assume SBN is screwing up or that SB is screwing up
Oh the dilemma
by Graham on Jul 7, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Hate recs are the best.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My humpty dumpty gif got disappeared.
Sadface.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But it wasn't a clown, so that puts us at level 0.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate the Dolphin on principle. I will hate it until he calls it something tough or wizardy.
by royalcurve on Jul 7, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's so freaking phallic, give me a break already.
How about we just call it the Lexington Steele
by Kermit. on Jul 7, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
If you're going to call a pitch The Dolphin it better at least do flips and shit
by OlSalty on Jul 7, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
And taste good over rice
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Dolphin registered zero swinging strikes
by Jeff on Jul 7, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You'd have to be retarded to miss hitting a dolphin with a baseball bat
They’re huge and will come right up to you.
by OlSalty on Jul 7, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Any way to tell if it helped his high fastball?
by Kermit. on Jul 7, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And like 6 line drives and 3 deep Fliners!
by OlSalty on Jul 7, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just amazed the O's fouled off all the pitches in the middle of the plate.
I’ve never scanned a game using gameday before, so it’s an odd perspective to me. He really was hitting the bottom of the zone pretty well, and going to both sides of the plate. Also, I couldn’t believe that 5 pitch 7th inning.
by Kermit. on Jul 7, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Safeco field IS a good place to pitch.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was wondering about that.
I knew he threw it for a ton of called strikes but couldn’t remember any swinging. Thanks for confirming that.
It will be interesting to see if he keeps trying to use it, and if people start to hit it.
by appleshampoo on Jul 7, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is fine as long as said person is at least open-minded and not stubborn to the point of ignorance
by OlSalty on Jul 7, 2009 1:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Im open-minded. I just don't have numbers to back it up like everyone else and I admit that. It was an opinion that's not measurable in numbers. I should've known before I started it was a stupid argument to start.
But blocking a person for that is ridiculous.
by Howisthatmature? on Jul 7, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem was the passive-agressiveness.
Seriously.
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bring it up privately with J/M/G please
You were banned. If you don’t understand why, email the mods using the contact links below. Please don’t do this.
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How did I miss a great Twilight reference from joof in yesterday's gamethread?
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 1:12 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
You just need to get SBN to pay you by the comment.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently, Rick Adair made a suggestion that successfully tweaked Washburn's pre-pitch mechanics
by msb on Jul 7, 2009 1:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
But the offtops are the gross 1-star motels of LL.
angels fan in seattle
by Eyebrows on Jul 7, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because this has clearly been the Ritz-Carlton Resort
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bet you never thought you'd use that phrase
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
be less needy
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
oh wait
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jul 7, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"I just purchased a customized Jose Lopez jersey. FML"
by abender20 on Jul 7, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Only if they trade him!
or if his parents have another child =(
by seattlebruin on Jul 7, 2009 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

by 
