Well That's A Right Doodling
by Jeff Sullivan on Jun 30, 2009 1:37 PM PDT
in Seattle Mariners News, Bad
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PrintOur lineup today, via Baker:
RF Ichiro
1B Russell Branyan
2B Jose Lopez
LF Ken Griffey Jr.
DH Mike Sweeney
CF Franklin Gutierrez
3B Chris Woodward
C Kenji Johjima
SS Ronny Cedeno
Griffey's in left to make room for Sweeney at DH, who's playing because Wakamatsu wants to get his bat in the lineup more often. The only problem is that Mike Sweeney isn't a better hitter than Ryan Langerhans. At all. And by playing Griffey in the outfield instead of the new guy, we're shooting ourselves in the foot. Over a full season, Langerhans is probably 35-40 runs better than Griffey in the field. 35-40. You would literally have a hard time exceeding that difference. And yet here we are, as we kick off a series against one of the most prolific lineups in baseball. Unless there's a legitimately good reason for this (and as far as I know, there very well may be), Wak is making a decision that is mathematically more egregious than batting the pitcher cleanup.
This sucks. I don't like to overreact or sound impatient when it comes to these kinds of things, but now is not the time to dick around. Langerhans was acquired for a reason.
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Also from Baker is a great Griffey quote
"I’m filing a grievance,‘’ Griffey deadpanned. "I’m definitely filing a grievance. Two days in a row in the outfield, that’s the best I can do for a week.’’
So at least he’s self-aware enough to know his days are numbered in the field. His quotes are more straightforward than Ichiro’s but just as awesome.
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
Last week on the post-game show they were talking about how after he'd played in the outfield a couple games in a row
They had to drain like 8 oz. of fluid from his knee.
I can't help but feel
that if 1998 Griffey were on the verge of retirement, his quotes wouldn’t be as self-deprecating and he’d be angry and bitter. I like 2009 Griffey a lot better.
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
The good news is that I fully expect Branyan to go 5-5 with 5 HRs in New Yankee Stadium.
Ichiro will also hit a homerun.
50!
It should also be noted that, if Langerhans is unavailable for some reason
Wlad/Griffey is still better than Griffey/Sweeney.
I wondered about that as well.
Langerhan might have jet lag or they wanted him to get use to the team.
I don’t know. I have never been traded.
Langerhans is probably the only person in an M's uniform who didn't fly to NY.
He just played for Syracuse (NY) in AAA, and his last game was in Pawtucket. If jet lag’s a concern, they really should start him.
He can take two seats on the Fung Wah bus so that should help a bit
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
Wak
subscribes to the old-school (A.K.A Lou Pinella) way of thinking: Play the veterans as long as possible. I like how he’s mostly handled the team this year but if I were a young batter, I would seriously hope that Wak was forced to play me (Carp during Branyan’s one day hiatus or Wlad’s OF adventures after Chavez got hurt).
Then why does he
seem to want to play Sweeney over Carp, even @ a DH role or play Griffey in LF to get Sweeney’s bat in the lineup? It makes no sense.
This is a silly lineup and he's put out silly lineups in the past
but to say he’s anywhere close to the Piniella/Hargrove/McClaren school of veteran favoritism is silly.
by Aaron Campeau on Jun 30, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Perhaps my comment comapring him to Lou was a bit 'quick'
But I still think Wak is loyal to the veterans or the ‘leaders’ in that clubhouse.
Well sure
but you’re drastically overstating your case.
by Aaron Campeau on Jun 30, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Wak has tried to mix up his lineups all year trying to find something that works
some of them suck. This is one of them.
by seattlebruin on Jun 30, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions
While he's not nearly as bad as them, there's a fair point to be made that he is showing some favoritism with Sweeney
From a talent perspective he shouldn’t even be on the team, and Wak is making room for him by taking at bats away from more productive but less veteran-ey players.
I have no problem with this statement
but hyperbole needs to be obviously in jest for one to expect to not be called out.
by Aaron Campeau on Jun 30, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I said "young batter" not young pitcher
which means I wasn’t referring to any of the pitchers, he obviously doesn’t have a veteran bias there. He’s ‘forced’ to play Wlad, not because he wants to.
So in other words you don't know and are just guessing.
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
It's just an observation on my part and perhaps It was silly.
But it at least would explain why the younger guys we want to see play then don’t get called up.
err..should say...
But at least it would explain why the younger players dont’ get much time after getting called up. It’s likely deeply flawed logic.
Wlad got quite a bit of playing time earlier in the year and he was hitting well for a couple weeks.
Carp will play more as the season goes on. Wak may not always have the best lineup construction but it’s not due to veteran loyalties. It’s who he truly thinks will win that day.
I actually bought a Betancourt t-shirt.
by Hopefulmsfan on Jun 30, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Perhaps you're right there
I actually do like Wak and the direction the team is going in, it’s just frustrating to see players like Sweeney play at the expense of younger players, particularly ones we will have on this team next year instead of the ones we won’t.
Well, let's see what younger position players we've had on the roster this season.
Wlad: Discussed and we generally agree, although I like him better than you seem to.
Carp: 13 PA, got a start (maybe two? I can’t remember) and some PH opportunities. Blocked by Branyan at 1B and Griffey at DH vs. RHP. Griffey is a better hitter at this point (probably) and Carp isn’t going to take ABs away from him for any number of other reasons.
Johnson: Deserves to be in Tacoma (at best) but has spent a large part of the season as the starting catcher.
And…that’s about it, really. He can’t play Saunders if he hasn’t been called up, and if Carp isn’t better than Branyan or Griffey why would you play him?
Wak certainly favors veterans to some extent, but what manager doesn’t? And seeing as how this team is in a playoff race and the young players the team has at the MLB level aren’t necessarily an upgrade, how can you blame Wakamatsu?
by Aaron Campeau on Jun 30, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You're right...
And if I had thought to think it out properly, I would’ve stated my opinion more. I don’t think Carp should start over Branyan but if Griffey is in LF to get more ‘bats’ in the lineup, Carp should be getting the call, at least in terms of matchups.
We agree on Johnson and while he calls a good game, he isn’t a starting catcher ever.
Again, I don’t hate Wak and certainly think he’s the best MGR the M’s have had since Lou, I just think his line-ups are flawed at times…
No disagreement re: today's lineup.
Carp should be starting vs. a righty, especially considering the venue.
by Aaron Campeau on Jun 30, 2009 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions
this was the main basis of my arguement
And should’ve been the beginning and ending of my thought. I am generally not some lunatic thoughtless ‘commenter.’ If I were, I would’ve left that at the Seattle Times pages…
We could've had five lefties in the lineup today: Carp (1B), Griffey (DH), Branyan (3B), Ichiro (RF) and Langerhans (LF)
I don’t like Branyan at third for a month, but a game or two will most likely be fine. Cedeno’s playing mad SS too.
five lefties in the lineup would have been awesome
damn the infield defense. I wanna see five M’s go yard.
The younger player who might be able to help the team (and there's really only one)
hasn’t been called up mainly because he sucks.
by seattlebruin on Jun 30, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't really want Saunders called up, actually
I trust in GMZ, and if the FO thinks he needs a bit more development time in AAA, I’m completely OK with that.
by seattlebruin on Jun 30, 2009 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Here's how I see it.
Wak figures that there’s no way Morrow beats the Yankees anyway, so he throws token playing time to Sweeney in a game that won’t matter.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Imagine if I need to match up five guys to fight five guys you have.
Further imagine that each group can be neatly ranked 1-5.
Now, if I get some sort of prize for winning the majority of the matches, I suggest that the best matchups for me involve my two weakest guys fighting your two strongest guys. Sure, I’ll lose those fights, but that grants me an advantage in the other three fights.
Sorry about the fighting analogy. I just came from BloodyElbow.com.
Ideally, Wak would never choose this lineup, but if he’s going to then doing it in a game where we were already likely to fail is arguably a good idea.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Kind of like the 1-hit performance last year against the Yanks
With a weaker defense behind him no less.
If that's the case then why play Ichiro, Gutierrez, or Branyan at all?
Rest em so they don’t get hurt Wak, we’ve already lost this game.
I actually bought a Betancourt t-shirt.
by Hopefulmsfan on Jun 30, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
In his blog, Baker posted:
RF Ichiro
1B Russell Branyan
2B Jose Lopez
LF Ken Griffey Jr.
DH Mike Sweeney
CF Franklin Gutierrez
3B Chris Woodward
C Kenji Johjima
SS Ronny Cedeno
RHP Brandon Morrow
Should read: RIP Brandon Morrow
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jun 30, 2009 1:55 PM PDT reply actions
Even in spite of this disappointing news..
I’m still excited for this game
"Part, fools!
Put up your swords. You know not what you do."
I think Zduriencik
has instructed Wak to play Griffey in the field until his knee explodes and he goes on the DL so they don’t have to pay him as much.
by I Lick Squirrels on Jun 30, 2009 1:58 PM PDT reply actions
Licking squirrels has been scientifically proven to increase mental capacity.
And I don’t think the team management just forgot that last time Griffey played LF 3 games in a row, he had to have an abortion’s worth of blood drained from his knee.
by I Lick Squirrels on Jun 30, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions
They shouldna done that he's just a boy
by OlSalty on Jun 30, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ah, I see [COATHANGER] is back.
We missed you, old meme.
by eponymous_coward on Jun 30, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe you didn't.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
How can you miss it if it doesn't go away?
by eponymous_coward on Jun 30, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions
It never went away? 4 times this year is a lot I suppose.
http://www.lookoutlanding.com/search?btn=Go&order=date&q=coathanger&type=Comment
I guess I just don’t see any harm in taking the overused ones and recycling them every once in a while.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
That being said, I don't really have an attachment to it.
I just don’t find the whining productive. If you ignore it, it’ll only show up every once in a while.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
I think you're taking me a wee bit too seriously
And I’m a Serial Dead Meme Offender.
by eponymous_coward on Jun 30, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Not so much for that reason.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
I'd like to see the new guy play too but...
I have to say that going into this brutal 9-game road trip, it was smelling like each of the last 5+ seasons “hey, we’re in this!” 11-game (or more) rally-killing skid that we always seem to hit. So after the series win in LA, I have faith in Wak that I did not have in past regimes.
How so?
Nyjer Morgan is loads better than Lastings Milledge. Joel Hanrahan is useless, and the other pitcher the Pirates threw in is pretty insignificant.
by Fuckmikereilly on Jun 30, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Morgan is 29 and has limited upside beyond what he currently is, and Sean Burnett may or may not suck.
Hanrahan isn’t totally useless and Milledge is 24 and was a top prospect not so long ago. Ignoring whether or not Milledge pans out, they gain upside with risk in exchange for a lower ceiling sure thing.
Joel Hanrahan is an above league average reliever and plus the Nats already had Nyjer Morgan in Ryan Langerhans
by Graham MacAree on Jun 30, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Just noticed Hanrahan's BABIP and LOB%
Holy crap has he been unlucky this year. So I will concede that. And maybe I’m just not a fan of Lastings Milledge, given his terrible defense, and offense that hasn’t shown much sign of coming around.
Ryan Langerhans was a completely different trade. We’re agreed that the Nationals were stupid in that regard.
by Fuckmikereilly on Jun 30, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Evaluating a trade that happened yesterday completely seperately from one that happened today doesn't seem right
by Graham MacAree on Jun 30, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I didn't say in my first post
“The Nationals are smart” or “the Nationals make good decisions.” I said “Wow, the Nationals actually made a good trade, today”
That implied that I even recognize that the Nationals make bad trades, including the one yesterday.
If we’re analyzing the Nationals’ decision making in general, then yes, it was stupid to give up Hanrahan and Milledge for a guy that essentially gives the same production as the guy they just gave up for nothing. Of course.
by Fuckmikereilly on Jun 30, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions
But we need to evaluate this from Pittsburgh's standpoint too.
I get trading from depth and all that, but they seem to have traded Nate McLouth and Nyjer Morgan (collectively worth around 3 wins+ so far at the time of trade) for the black Jeremy Reed, an Ezequiel Carrera clone and some pitching prospects. Oh, and a reliever who’s worth a half run above average or so.
Yes, the Nats motive here is tough to see (I totally get the Morgan trade in isolation), but I really, really don’t know what’s going on with Huntington.
Jeremy Reed WAR through his age 24 season: 2.6
Lastings Milledge career WAR: -0.3.
Jeremy Reed could defend for a while there.
If it's a change of scenery trade, I'm pretty sure they're hoping for MIlledge to break out as a hittter
which he has shown flashed of
If he were to do so that would compensate for his bad defense. A good glove can only make you so valuable if you are a flat out impotent hitter like Reed was. They’re definitely trading for his ceiling and giving up Morgan doesn’t seem like a huge price to play.
Don’t get me wrong, I think they could have found a better target, but I don’t see how Milledge is in any way comparable to Reed.
Both were hyped prospects but not useful MLB players.
For Milledge to accumulate enough playing time to add some value offensively (which would be a significant improvement), he’d have to play in the field. It seems likely, given his track record, that his defensive play would counter his offensive contributions.
Again, as impotent as Reed was, he actually gave the M’s 2.6 WAR before his head melted. Milledge has yet to show anything close to that. A terrible glove means your hitting can make you only so valuable.
And the whole point of these trades was to make their outfield defense better
Instead they’ve made a ~lateral move defensively which cost them a 24 year old CFer who at one time was a projected all star (and could still be, who knows?) and an above average reliever.
Oh, and they got Mike Morse.
They got one of the best defensive OFs in the game
in exchange for a putrid defender, who also gave you below average offense and major attitude problems.
Yes, yes, former top prospect, toolsy. But there’s no way to see Milledge and Morgan as equivalents. Sure, Morgan may never improve, and will likely decline. He can fall a looooong way to get close to Milledge’s value.
Hanrahan is better than Burnett, though.
And relievers just aren't that useful
If Lastings Milledge pans out, I’ll gladly eat crow. But he’s going to have to be damn good on offense to replace Morgan.
by Fuckmikereilly on Jun 30, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions
You know, seeing you tag I just remembered about that game
and you know what? it looks like rain here in NYC.
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jun 30, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Mike Sweeney is 7 for his last 11.
While I think Wak and company are very open to the different offensive and defensive metrics.. I still think there is a bit of old school in the guy that tells him that Sweeney is swinging a good bat lately and is on a hot streak.
I just don't think he's at the point yet where he's just going to go by numbers.
I still think he has a part of him that believes in the veteran leadership, hot streaks, etc.
So he's like Terminator staring at John Conner? His vision flashes "wOBA!" then cancels and selects "Leader" repeatedly?
by abender20 on Jun 30, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fun fact!
Princess Willie is a better player than Mike Sweeney at this point in their respective careers, and arguably a comparable hitter.
It sort of blows my mind that as a team we could actually use WFB everyday and improve the team (basically, put him at 2B and Loafie at 3B), but there you go.
by eponymous_coward on Jun 30, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Didn't say that is his #1 priority. Just that on occasion we'll see moves like this one
or Junior in LF with a flyball pitcher, or Junior starting vs a lefty. Wak gets it right most of the time, but I think on occasions he’ll throw a bone to some of the leaders/vets on this team
I imagine this is what it is
Sweeney’s hitting .385 for the month, and Wak hasn’t read enough of The Book to know that that doesn’t matter.
by Jeff Sullivan on Jun 30, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
The commercials say he likes to read..
Can we gift-wrap him a copy of The Book?
Sweeney doesn't play very much.
The obvious motive is to get him more playing time. My only concern is why today as opposed to the next two games with lefties on the mound?
Good news!
We might not have to deal with this lineup today!
According to Baker it’s pouring in New York and the game is in doubt.
It'll probably pass.
I just cleared it about an hour ago, took about an hour to go over.
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
Don't count on it
My guess iis it’ll clear by eight so Griffey will just be playing on wet grass
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jun 30, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Brock and Salk just raised the thought ....
if they won 7 out of 10 championships, would Mariner fans become as obnoxious as Yankee fans?
I'd give anything to find out
and speaking for myself, I can say I’d love to think not but probably.
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
In a Seattle Passive-Agressive sort of way, I'd think...
This signature space for rent.
by PositivePaul on Jun 30, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
There would be nothing passive about it for me
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
I think the correct comparison
Is after about 85 years of FAIL, winning a couple of championships, a la Red Sox Nation.
by eponymous_coward on Jun 30, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I'll say that I'm pretty sure we wouldn't match them.
That being said, fuck the Yankees.
by eponymous_coward on Jun 30, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions
In happier news from Baker
“Adrian Beltre underwent successful surgery today in California, where bone spurs were removed from his left shoulder. There was no additional damage to the rotator cuff, though the bursa sack was inflamed. That inflammation should subside now that the spurs are gone. Wakamatsu said this could lead to an accelerated return to action for Beltre.
“We’re hoping,‘’ he said. "We’re still looking six to eight weeks, but maybe, if everything goes well, we can bring him up here a little bit quicker than that.’’"
Just the fact that he's disappeared completely
by Jeff Sullivan on Jun 30, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Carlos Silva being forgotten about is quite inspirational for me.
I see they’re going for the full Cirillo, complete with an advanced case of suckitis.
by eponymous_coward on Jun 30, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions
We had a Carlos Silva?
You got slurved!
Free Tommy Hanson! [FREED]! Free Jeff Clement! Free Michael Saunders!
Who?
That name sounds familiar- wasn’t he on the team last year or something?
by eponymous_coward on Jun 30, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Buffet-linked selective amnesia
It’s spreading from Minneapolis…
by kentcheesehead on Jun 30, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Anyone watching Yankees BP on the YES network? Wonder if they'll show
Branyan taking some shots at RF
Back and forth
Forever
I want to poop at your house - Thingray
by tootthekazoo on Jun 30, 2009 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions
If you plan to one up him, at least do it properly.
())||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||D
He's been crap so far out of the rotation,
so…. whatever.
Morrow existentially annoys me more than Olson does.
But OK, yeah, it’s probably pick ’em at this point.
by eponymous_coward on Jun 30, 2009 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Trying to learn Danish.
So maybe not 100%, but should be able to grasp that gist.
That's putting it mildly.
I thought I’d be able to get by in Denmark with no trouble. It sounded like everyone’s voice had been put through some weird flange effect.
The old adage that it’s norwegian spoken through a mouthful of potato is true, but somehow still not strong enough.
Yeah, have fun with that.
Written, you should have no trouble. Spoken, that language is fucked up.
I've heard it's akin to English. Just compare
NW English to Bayou English to Wales English
Worse, imo.
Welsh english (even much of northern England) contains different words, and that can sometimes throw you. A welsh accent, as opposed to just plain Welsh, isn’t THAT bad.
But hey, see what you think. I’d imagine it’s easier to go from learning Danish —> Norsk than the other way around, but it may still cause some confusion.
Aw crap, you went all out with the special characters and everything.
Takk skal du ha, by the way.
I'm not norwegian at all.
I just learned the world’s most useless language.
I seriously think Esperanto might have more speakers than good ol’ Norsk.
Finnish is far more useless.
At least w/Norwegian you basically get Danish and Swedish for free.
Good point. Though Finland has more people than Norway,
you get Estonia for free, and there’s Nokia.
Looking at the forecasts for New York...
this entire series could be rained out. That would be nice.
Except for having to make up dates in September
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
By then we'll be out of the race and I won't care
by Fuckmikereilly on Jun 30, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions
But if we're still in the race it'll be mighty annoying
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
No kidding.
We can have our rotation and bullpen trashed AND get screwed-up road trips!
by eponymous_coward on Jun 30, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions
While I don't put a ton of stock in the idea of momentum
I think there’s something to be said for playing this series in the context of this road trip.
by Aaron Campeau on Jun 30, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe this means nothing and maybe it means everything
But on the team site, Langerhans is on the 40-man but not the active roster. Could there be a transaction hiccup that won’t let us use him till tomorrow?
They need to clear a spot for him on the 25 man but have not done so yet.
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
If I were only more detail-oriented I would have remembered to wear pants to work.
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
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