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King Felix and Mariner Catchers

1:  As we've discussed a bit here, the M's behavior seems to suggest that they believe catchers impact RA much more than the minimal amount analysts would ascribe to CS, PB, errors, etc.    Why would you utilize the immortal platoon of Rob Johnson and Jamie Burke unless you believed catchers had an inordinate impact on RA?  

2:  cERA and other attempts to measure this effect have always foundered on two issues: sample size and selection bias.   The first because, duh and the second because a catcher who only catches Felix is going to look a lot better than a catcher who catches a large number of Carlos Silva starts.  

3:  Felix is having one of his best seasons ever, and yet he's still had some downright awful games.    The crappy game at home vs. LAA comes to mind - a start so bad, Wakamatsu 'called him out' in the press.   Baker seems to credit that move with helping Felix to 'focus' better, and notes his results since being trashed by his manager:  3-0, 0.72 ERA in 5 starts.    Of course, most M's fans would remember that Johjima caught that Angels game, and hasn't caught him since.   Indeed, you can pretty much eyeball Felix's game log and pick out the Johjima starts just be looking to see when Felix gave up runs/XBH.    And yes, the sample size in 2009 is laughably small.

 

So, I took a look at Felix's career splits by catcher.   What we get is this:

*With Johjima:*

1958 PAs, 406 Ks, 154 BBs, 52 HRs, 486 H.    BABIP: .327

*With everyone else:*

1245 PAs, 277 Ks, 91 BBs, 19 HRs, 263 H.   BABIP: .291

If you normalize the BABIP to Felix's career average of .313, you get slash lines of:

*.274/.334/.419 with Johjima*

and *.250/.312/.329 with everyone else.* 


In rate terms, that works out to:

H: 23.85% (Johjima, normalized), 22.65% (Field, normalized)

BB: 7.87%, 7.31%

K: 20.74%, 22.25%

HR: 2.66%, 1.53% (whoa)

'The Field' produces a shinier K/BB ratio, but it's not huge.   The difference here is almost entirely down to HR rate.  It's enough to produce a FIP of ~4 for Johjima and ~3.2 for everyone else.   That's big.   We keep waiting for 'King Felix' to stop pitching stupid, or for his results to show up and.... they basically have, from 2005-2009, so long as Johjima isn't catching.  

 

But wait!   Pizza Cutter's good work on when sample sizes 'stabilize' suggests that HR/FB or HR/PA is really, really volatile.    It's true - at 750 PAs, Pizza found HR/PA's r value was only at 0.323.   Not nothing, but not near the 0.7 he used as his standard for reliability.    So is Johjima the victim of really, really terrible luck on HR/FB?  Note that the samples for Felix/Johjima/the field are much, much larger than the 750 PA sample Pizza used (he was trying to use around 1 season of data; we've got more than that).

I have no idea.   I'm posting this because I was supposed to go to a meeting and it got cancelled.    I just dumped Felix's career splits into excel and estimated IP (and an error in IP will affect FIP, and my est. IP is too low, so knock a bit off the FIP).  I suspect it's one of those things where everyone will see their preconceived hypothesis 'vindicated' - if you hate the idea that catchers impact a pitcher's FIP, you can point to the pathetic r value and chalk it up to a fluke.   If you love the idea of catcher 'leadership' or 'grit' or 'studying the opposing hitters' or whatever the causal model is actually supposed to be here, you've got a big difference in FIP with no selection bias and so-so samples.  

For fun, let's regress these rates and see where we get.   If you double the PAs, and use league-average HR/PA figures for the second 'sample', you'll come out with rates of: 2.45% for Johjima and 1.89% for the 'field.'   That greatly reduces the FIP gap, but it's still there (as is the HR/PA gap).   

So what the hell is this?   WHY would Johjima 'create' more HRs?   What could he possibly be doing that would create a large effect on HR/PA?   It can't really be pitch calling, as Felix was shaking him off repeatedly in the infamous Angels start, only to have the pitches HE wanted to throw get crushed.   I'd love to see if there's a difference in GB% by catcher, or in the frequency of off-speed pitches thrown.   Felix certainly threw a ton of FBs against the angels, but again, that's not necessarily what Johjima called.   

Theories?

4 recs  |  Comment 46 comments

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It's interesting but I just don't think there are any conclusions you can draw from this.

I’m not necessarily opposed to the idea that catchers can impact pitching performance, but either the impact is so small that it doesn’t matter or tons of really smart people have missed something rather obvious.

by acblue on Jun 17, 2009 3:32 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Too many variables... IMO

Felix’s own development and youth also factor in. Also the culture of throwing Joh under the bus probably didn’t help either.

You’d probably see more patterns and the like if you ran the entire pitching roster of the last 3 years and also separate rookies/developmental pitchers and pitchers with established career lines.

Favor the Bold

by IcebreakerX on Jun 17, 2009 4:30 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'd like to see the pitch distribution for the two groups

I’d love to see if there’s a difference in GB% by catcher, or in the frequency of off-speed pitches thrown. Felix certainly threw a ton of FBs against the angels, but again, that’s not necessarily what Johjima called.

I kind of wonder if Felix doesn’t trust Johjima (for whatever reason, it could be something really dumb) and because he doesn’t trust him, winds up calling more of his own pitches and gets in more trouble that way. Mainly, I would wonder if he throws more fastballs with Johjima than with other catchers.

But either way I think that the first thing to look at is whether or not Felix has a different style of pitching under Johjima than he does with other catchers, which would mean looking at his pitch distribution (FB%, SL%, CB%, etc.) under Johjima vs. other catchers. If he’s throwing everything at roughly the same rate, then I’d be inclined to chalk this up to luck, and if he’s doing something stupid (like throwing too many fastballs) with Johjima, then maybe there’s something to this.

And yeah, it wouldn’t necessarily tell us whether or not it was Joh’s fault or Felix’s fault for shaking off Joh too much, but it might give us an idea of what works best with Felix on the mound.

by ubelmann on Jun 17, 2009 4:52 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

My main compalint with Johjima has always been the way he sets up.

I don’t think he grasps that players over here are taught to focus on the mitt. He never has his glove in position when the pitcher winds up.

I have always wondered if this has an effect on control. I do know that it has to hurt the way the ump sees the pitch, but also hard to tell what tangible effect it has.

by Sec 108 on Jun 17, 2009 5:05 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Mybe command is what I should have said.

I just wonder if some of those meatballs are due to him not having a good target. I would think less this way for a more veteran arm than I do for Felix.

by Sec 108 on Jun 17, 2009 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps it has some effect where it gets Felix into worse counts?

Thereby making his pitches even more predictable and thus more prone to HR and such.

by patsfan on Jun 17, 2009 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Catcher is the captain of the defense.

Or quarterback or point gaurd etc. If the pitchers do not respect the abilities of the catcher there will be problems. Johjima is an offensive catcher who no longer can hit, there are bound to be issues.

"Where's my doctor?"

by mw3 on Jun 17, 2009 6:10 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The problem boils down to some Mariner starters...

…not respecting Johjima as an all around talent worth 8 mil a year.

"Where's my doctor?"

by mw3 on Jun 17, 2009 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Makes sense.

They are throwing RIGHT at him. It’s clear they’re trying to hit him.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Jun 17, 2009 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't make sense...

It only fucks your salary, not his.

Favor the Bold

by IcebreakerX on Jun 17, 2009 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

what

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Jun 18, 2009 2:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

This is fascinating if true.

by FWombat on Jun 18, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Link?

Or anything pointing toward this story. I’m curious to see it.

Awaiting the day I catch a Russell Branyan foul ball. I will make love to it.
Preserved In All His Greatness - R.I.P. The Reignman 1989 to 1997

by JLProck on Jun 25, 2009 11:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The only thing I heard were stories that Joh had trouble with Jamie's signs their first year together

Reportedly, most catchers are slow to catch onto Moyer’s signs; he has a different set than the other pitchers, and they are long and complicated.

Moyer is likely is not the easiest pitcher to catch, between calling his own game, the variety of pitches he throws, and the fact that he uses more signs than any living pitcher … to quote Norm Charleton : "He’s got first sign, second sign, third sign, a sign on odd days, even months, odd years, when it rains outside, when he drove his truck to the park. You’re basically not going to steal his signs."

by msb on Jun 26, 2009 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Got it.

I wonder what Joh did to Moyer that would cause him to want to leave. I hope it wasn’t just over signals.

Awaiting the day I catch a Russell Branyan foul ball. I will make love to it.
Preserved In All His Greatness - R.I.P. The Reignman 1989 to 1997

by JLProck on Jun 27, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

God, fucking Johjima has been so awful at calling games this year

and he got that stupid skin pigmentation surgery and now he looks all white and shit

by seattlebruin on Jun 18, 2009 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Some questions that are still rattling around....

At what point DOES HR/PA stabilize/become a reliable indicator of some sort of ‘talent’? 1000 PAs? 5000 PAs? Seems like it would be ~ where a pitcher’s HR/FB might stabilize, which also has an r<0.300 for 750 PAs or so. But as with BABIP, HR/FB, whatever, the r, while low, is not 0. Does this mean anything, or is it noise? With samples that are acceptably large and with a dose of regression, I’m guessing there’s still something left over that equates to ‘talent’ or a real difference. It might be damn small, however.

HOW could this possibly be? Jeff’s data from Jan. 2009 don’t indicate any dramatic differences in pitch calling. Using Sec’s set-up hypothesis, is Johjima somehow tipping the location of all pitches by how he sets up (“ooookay, setting up on the outside here; c’mon, gotta catch this outside pitch over here on the outside of the plate”)?

Or does it have more to do with pitch-counts? Does Johjima’s pitch calling somehow result in more 2-0 counts or something? The problem there is that Felix hasn’t given up a ridiculous number of HRs in ‘hitters counts.’ Only 9 of his 71 HRs have come on 2-0, 3-0 or 3-1 counts. He’s given up 10 on the first pitch and another 11 on 1-0 – and he’s given up 12 on or after 1-2 counts! He’s getting hurt on neutral/pitcher’s counts. Why must you torment us, King Felix?

Maybe it has something to do with repeating the same pitch sequences, as Felix’ HR rate goes from 1.6% the first time through the line-up to 2.5% the second time and 2.6% the third.

I’d still just love to see GB rates by catcher…

by marc w on Jun 18, 2009 12:52 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm also really interested in seeing what effect a catcher can have on his pitcher

But to be honest, I expect it’s mostly just small sample size luck.

St. Louis relievers... defying win expectancy since 2008
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/

by vivaelpujols on Jun 20, 2009 3:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just to be clear, the samples here aren't really small.

We’re talking 2.5 years for Johjima and ~ 1.5 years for the field. Maybe that’s small in the context of HR/FB, maybe it’s not.

by marc w on Jun 23, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If it is true that Johjima has negative effects on our pitching staff (and I'm not saying it is), then he needs to go.

However, the triple threat of Johnson/Burke/Quiroz is not the answer, as a group or individually. Here’s hoping Zduriencik works some magic at C soon.

Awaiting the day I catch a Russell Branyan foul ball. I will make love to it.
Preserved In All His Greatness - R.I.P. The Reignman 1989 to 1997

by JLProck on Jun 23, 2009 11:23 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

It may be the answer, depending on the question.

Also, I’m gunning for Quiroz to do something incredibly amazing that turns his name into a noun so that I can have a wicked scrabble word.

...and now I'm here

by CapSea on Jun 23, 2009 11:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

Honestly I think the only reason they are pimping Rob like something he’s not is because they’re trying to trade him, not because they actually want him as our catcher of the future.

by OlSalty on Jun 24, 2009 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Zduriencik should say "he reminds me of a young Jason Kendall."

Since GMZ scouted and drafted Kendall when he was scouting director for the Pirates during the mid 1990s (and Kendall was amazing before his knee-destroying injury in his fifth or so season)

by Decatur on Jun 24, 2009 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Would it matter at all to look at what hitters Felix faced while having Joh as a battery mate vs. those faced with "the field"?

And would that even be possible over so many PA’s?

I’m just wondering if you could establish some sort of baseline concerning the quality of the hitters he faced during each set of plate appearances.

Awaiting the day I catch a Russell Branyan foul ball. I will make love to it.
Preserved In All His Greatness - R.I.P. The Reignman 1989 to 1997

by JLProck on Jun 25, 2009 11:50 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I think at some large number of PAs, you've got to assume a normal distribution

I mean, the samples are both greater than 1 or 2 full seasons, so I don’t think you’re liable to get oddities like Johjima always caught v. the Red Sox and everyone else always caught v. Oakland or what have you. But I don’t know for sure.

by marc w on Jun 26, 2009 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Washburn and Run Support

There’s more evidence that Jarrod Washburn causes the hitters to suck on the days that he pitches than there is that Johjima makes pitchers suck on the days that he catches. However, no one actually thinks that Washburn pitching makes hitters bad.

Maybe if he was Japanese, they would.

by davidcameron on Jun 26, 2009 11:57 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

If so, present it.

If there are obvious holes in the data above, let me know. If you think a pitcher has the same influence over hitters as a catcher does over pitching, well, I suppose you can try and convince people of that too.

This wasn’t about Johjima’s skills overall, this was intended to be about catchers handling one specific pitcher. Indeed, there’s one component that stands out – not K:BB, ERA, but HR rate. I’d just like to know how you get from that to the belief that this is all anti-Japanese nonsense.

by marc w on Jun 29, 2009 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Something that came up pregame...

was that there will be no ‘personal catchers’ on the team, even if they play Joh & Rob equally — Wak feels it is divisive

by msb on Jun 26, 2009 10:25 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

If this is true, and he actually institutes this, then good for him.

I think the only time a pitcher should have a personal catcher is if he throws a knuckleball and that catcher is the only one that can catch it.

Awaiting the day I catch a Russell Branyan foul ball. I will make love to it.
Preserved In All His Greatness - R.I.P. The Reignman 1989 to 1997

by JLProck on Jun 26, 2009 11:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting pitch-framking analysis that R.J. Anderson pointed to:

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2008/4/5/389840/framing-the-debate

Apparently Johjima was 2nd worst in the majors at framing pitches. This is a super preliminary study, but it seems like this might add to the discussion here significantly.

For the Draysbay discussion, go here:
http://www.draysbay.com/2009/7/1/931342/gregg-zaun#17647791

by Decatur on Jul 1, 2009 11:44 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Very interesting and this points more to what I meant to say above about Johnjima.

Maybe his way of setting up late does not change the command or control of the pitcher, but rather adversely affects the way the umpire sees the pitches.

by Sec 108 on Jul 1, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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