Well That Was A Disaster
Boy, when the Rockies get on a roll they just run over everything in their path. Except for the Red Sox on the grandest possible stage.
I don't care how run-prevention-oriented your roster might be - you can't go into Coors and slug .340 over a weekend and expect to come out smelling like roses. The only decent thing to come out of the whole series is that we only lost one game of ground to the Rangers, but then at the same time we lost three games of ground to the Angels, and as a result our playoff odds are down by more than a third from where they were Friday morning. I keep repeating myself, but this team needs to figure out what it wants to do. Hanging around in the periphery is great if you're gearing up to make a run, but all they've been doing so far is paddling in circles, and it's driving me crazy. Perhaps Michael Saunders could row the other oar.
On another note, it's funny; it takes a lot for me to start liking another team, but it takes precious little for me to hate them. I think I hate the Rockies and all they've done is beat us 12 times in 13 years. They're a harmless, inoffensive ballclub that doesn't get a lot of media attention and hasn't had a whole bunch of success. But because of those two miserable losses in 2006 and this weekend's sweep, they've managed to vault themselves onto my list. I guess my brain just isn't wired for neutrality. I have to have an opinion of every team, and I find it more difficult to root for than to root against. Hell, half the time I don't even like us. At this rate it shouldn't be long before I start seeing every opponent as the Angels. And then I'll need to establish a new level of hate for the Angels. Being a baseball fan is complicated.
- Yuniesky Betancourt is 2-21 since his benching, and while he looked to be giving a little extra effort in the field in his first game back, it would appear that he's slipped back into his comfort zone. Annoyed? Don't you worry. The team is working on it.
- Based on a sample size of Jason Vargas, the Rockies were on the right track when they tried out that whole changeup experiment a few years back. Vargas threw 20 changeups today - 13 of them for strikes - and Rockies hitters swung through seven of them while hitting another two for groundballs. The problem is that Vargas also throws other pitches too, and this afternoon his fastball and slider got rocked to the tune of eight line drives and six doubles on 20 balls in play. I like Vargas' change a lot, and his slider is perfectly fine against lefties, but it's hard to be consistently effective when you can't trust your primary pitch. I wonder if this is what Cesar Jimenez would look like as a starter.
Our next nine games come against the 28-34 Padres and the 27-37 Diamondbacks. This is the easiest stretch we'll face for the rest of the season. It's not absolutely imperative that the Mariners take advantage of this, but if they don't, then they'll be left facing some extraordinary odds.
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I can't bring myself to hate the Rockies.
They repeatedly win against us, but it always seems to be more due to our own incompetence than timely hitting & pitching from Colorado.
Like you wrote, we slugged .340 for the weekend. And we threw Morrow, Lowe, and Vargas out there. It’s just like the 2006 series, when we let Josh Fogg shut us out, we refused to use newly acquired Eduardo Perez, and we sent Guardado out when we absolutely should not have. We deserved to lose.
I don’t hate the Rockies. I even somehow respect them for bringing out the worst in us.
The team is working on it?
I knew friendly ties with Cuba could come in handy. Let Castro make an example of Yuni to all who aspire for freedom.
by jimmylauderdale on Jun 14, 2009 6:59 PM PDT reply actions
Rockies more lucky than good
I don’t remember the 2006 series w/ the Rox specifically. Let’s say that the Rockies have hot streaks and the only reason why they made the WS ahead of us is because their hot streak two years ago came at the right time. Hurdle is an okay manager, not great, not terrible. Tracy may be a little better but new managers often produce winning streaks.
We need a SS. We also need to get Jeff Clement to a new organization b/c it’s obvious that Zdurencik and Wak dislike him.
Josh Normand
There's nowhere to put Clement anyway what with the pathetic legend we have
by Jeff Sullivan on Jun 14, 2009 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I respectfully disagree. I don't think Junior is hell-bent on being our DH.
I think he was fine when they told him they didn’t need him to play defense. I think he knows he wasn’t really up to it anyway. If they could bring in a power batter to start at DH, I think Junior would go for it. He would still get to pinch hit occassionally (rarely based on Wak’s history) and I think he wants a ring more than he wants to bat everyday. He knows this is his last chance. He also knows that the fans love him and would be more happy with better results than just seeing him in the lineup everyday.
by Sinking Away on Jun 14, 2009 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions
If they made up some coaching positions for Griffey and Sweeney for the rest of the season.
Then I would be happy.
What like
Bench coach?
Bullpen coach?
1st base coach?
3rd base coach?
Hitting coach?
Come on now, they cannot just have useless coaching positions.
Life coach
"Even the stupidest of men, by some instinct of nature, is convinced on his own that with more observations his risk of failure is diminished."
-Jacques Bernoulli Ars conjectandi 1713
by Bearskin Rugburn on Jun 14, 2009 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions
But maybe having Sweeney at 1st base coach.
Griffey as bench coach, and Edgar as hitting coach would be awesome. Might as well make something out of these useless positions.
Those positions are already useless.
...and now I'm here
They don't have to make up some coaching position. Cut Sweeney now. Griffrey is on
the DL until the rosters expand in September. This has been done before.
by Sinking Away on Jun 14, 2009 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed.
I’ll never get too worked up about it either way, but pitchers hitting is a tradition I wouldn’t miss in the slightest.
I want Felix never to swing a bat ever again
by Graham MacAree on Jun 14, 2009 8:15 PM PDT up reply actions
I want the opposite.
I want Felix to DH when he doesn’t pitch so I can see him play every game I go to!
I don't agree with the reincarnation thing below, but watching that eyes-closed
grand slam hit was a very sweet moment. Once in a lifetime, but still, very sweet.
by Sinking Away on Jun 14, 2009 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Why not?
I mean, Babe Ruth wasn’t only a great hitter, but also a great pitcher in the beginning of his career. Maybe he has come back in the form of Felix Hernandez to fulfill his desire to pitch.
If my memory is right, Ruth pitched very few total innings.
My memory is often not right, so I’ll go look it up.
by Sinking Away on Jun 14, 2009 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions
To be fair, if you have a memory of Ruth pitching, you are very very old
And therefore it is unsurprising your memory is failing you.
Don't hold your breath
it ain’t going anywhere.
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
I honestly don't understand the hate for interleague play
What the hell’s the difference between playing the Royals or Tigers more times, or playing the Rockies or Padres or Mets or whatever? I mean people like to bitch about it but fuck their whiny asses.
I don't hate interleague but if we're going to separate leagues we should keep them separate until the WS.
by Aaron Campeau on Jun 15, 2009 3:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Every other sport has interconference play.
Other sports don’t have separate leagues in a single unified body. Which is really just rephrasing Matthew’s point, in a way.
It's not the existence of separate leagues that's the differentiator though
it’s the differing rules in each league.
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
Yes, exactly.
I was just trying to say that the difference between two leagues is significant, while the difference between two conferences is not. To put it another way, interleague play is more like the CFL playing the NFL than it is like NFL, NHL and NBA interconference play.
interleague
Couldn’t agree with you more about Interleague. Novelty is over, unless you live in Chicago, New York or Maryland. Even the LA teams don’t hate each other.
Josh Normand
I agree.
I think that birds-fighting-over-a-baseball logo is ironic and hilarious, but I like interleague play. I wouldn’t have been able to see so many M’s games here in San Diego without it. It’s not like the separate leagues are separate entities anymore in anything but a historical context. Not to mention seeing the M’s play Dodger Stadium, Wrigley, Shea last year, etc.
With that said, watching AL pitchers swing the bat (with notable exceptions) shows how silly having different rules in each league is. If anything should go, it’s the DH.
by lemonverbena on Jun 15, 2009 7:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Watching NL pitchers swing the bat is pretty silly too
by Graham MacAree on Jun 15, 2009 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions
If by silly you mean ridiculously entertaining then yes
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
by pdb on Jun 15, 2009 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I can't wait for Saturday
I’m going to the Reds/White Sox game and I haven’t seen a pitcher bat in a while. Should be entertaining.
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
Obviously I am being facetious
But I do tire of listening to everyone replay the same argument year after year. I wish there were a way to declare arguing about interleague a dead meme.
There are valid arguments against interleague play.
Such as the unbalanced scheduling.
They are seriously different.
The DH is a major factor.
by Sinking Away on Jun 14, 2009 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions
They NL doesn't have a designated hitter?
...and now I'm here
Spelling mistakes do a pretty good job.
...and now I'm here
I don't think they are that much the same.
I think the DH is huge. Santana is Santana no matter which league he’s pitching for, but pitching against a DH is different than pitching against any NL pitcher.
by Sinking Away on Jun 14, 2009 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Except if the DH is a legend like Junior.
by Sinking Away on Jun 14, 2009 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Touche.
I actually bought a Betancourt t-shirt.
by Hopefulmsfan on Jun 15, 2009 1:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Depends on where in the order the DH bats.
If he’s batting 2nd, he gets 4.72 PAs/Game, if he’s a pitcher in NL batting 8th he gets 3.98 PAs/Game. Not a big difference, but still significant.
by Sinking Away on Jun 14, 2009 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Pitchers only hit 2 or 3 times.
Afterwards they are replaced by pinch hitters, usually for the rest of the game.
...and now I'm here
Still, it seems to me if your DH is one of the 3 best batters on your
team, and you are batting him in the 1, 2, or 3 hole, you are in a much better position than batting for a pitcher twice in the 7, 8 or 9 hole. That just seems to me to be common sense.
by Sinking Away on Jun 14, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I feel like your last two comments are unrelated.
...and now I'm here
I can't believe this is even a topic of conversation.
There are a lot of other factors like fatigue and injury that would make the DH infinately better than batting the pitcher. Not to mention why would you ever want 2 or 3 different batters to bat in the pitchers spot over having a solid DH hitter that hits for power/consistency.
Mostly because the DH makes the game static and boring
(unless your DH is a superstar like Ortiz or Edgar, but those guys are the excretions), and the strategy around working the pitchers’ spot gets the entire roster involved and is like putting a pepper in the gumbo.
by Poochie on Jun 14, 2009 11:20 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Ortiz would be a record breaking excretion.
...and now I'm here
It's not worth seeing a bad hitter hit 2-3 times a game.
And forced strategy isn’t strategy. If you’re down 3 runs in the 8th, you HAVE to pull the starter if he comes up to the plate in that inning, unless he’s a decent hitter. If it’s a 1-1 game in the 7th and the pitcher comes to the plate, runner on, you HAVE to sac bunt.
Pitchers can’t hit. Nobody CARES if they hit, because ther massively important part of their job is throwing the ball. Why do I have to watch them hit if I can see a hitter hit instead? Just so I can marvel at the double switch?
by eponymous_coward on Jun 15, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
You watch the Mariners and have a problem with watching one bad hitter twice a game?
Nice Guys Finish Third - My semantics are a waste of time.
For a while we had a pitcher hitting at third base.
...and now I'm here
Forced strategy isn't the issue
You could attack any aspect of the game by that line of reasoning. My feeling is the watching people make hard choices is more interesting then not. I also feel that everyone should have to hit and defend their position, pitcher just has to be a position where run prevention is more important than hitting. If we’re going to hit for pitchers why not just hit for guys like Mike Matheny or Adam Everett? I have no interest in watching those guys hit either.
This is not an argument about whether or not the DH is better.
This is a discussion about the difference between the two leagues.
...and now I'm here
It wasn't even supposed to be about anything
It was a throw away silly comment satirizing among, other things, that if you watch as much AL baseball as you do NL you begin to notice that play is nearly identical and there’s not much of a difference.
Right, this too.
Either way, d0nkey’s comment seemed unusual considering the thread it was attached to.
...and now I'm here
I was more referring to interleague play specifically
I don’t really mind the pitchers hitting in the NL, it’s not like it ruins the game or anything. But when the leagues play each other I cringe when I see the AL pitchers batting just because they probably have a higher risk of injury while batting or baserunning because they never, ever do those things while the NL pitchers at least do them somewhat regularly.
You forget the pinch hitting penalty too
by Graham MacAree on Jun 14, 2009 11:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Of course, there's also a DH penalty.
Not nearly as significant, but worth mentioning.
I like both but the AL is way way better.
by Aaron Campeau on Jun 15, 2009 2:22 AM PDT up reply actions
And yes I saw your comment above and yes I watch plenty of NL baseball
but to me at least the automatic out is always in the back of my mind and it drives me nuts.
by Aaron Campeau on Jun 15, 2009 2:25 AM PDT up reply actions
There's a lot of learning between then and the majors, though.
Otherwise you’d see more polished hitters going straight to the bigs. So on a professional level, most of these pitchers never fully learn.
It certainly does. I'm not questioning the philosophy.
I’m questioning d0nkey’s rhetorical statement about pitchers’ hitting ability.
Is it wrong for me to wish we get smoked over the next nine games?
That would be a real indicator of what should happen this season.
It’s not that I don’t want to make the playoffs. I’d be pretty pumped if we did. At the same time, I think we’re cutting it close with Bedard and Washburn as movable pieces. I really just want the rollercoaster to end, and to see Jack make some moves one way or the other.
Awaiting the day I catch a Russell Branyan foul ball. I will make love to it.
Preserved In All His Greatness - R.I.P. The Reignman 1989 to 1997
Yeah, well, basically the best thing that could happen to the future of this team is to lose a lot right now.
But at the same time, don’t forget that some of these moves will not be punting the season. For example, if somehow Bedard could be traded for an MLB caliber shortstop, the upgrade over Yuni would negate much of the loss of Bedard. We need luck right now in order to get to the playoffs anyway, so needing a tiny bit more luck is not an awful thing to ask. Trading these players may be the result of a losing season, but the trades themselves don’t need to necessarily mean that the season is over, even if he made them right now at 5.5 games back.
...and now I'm here
Right. Losing Bedard with an upgrade at SS might be half dozen of one.
A lot of it is luck. But we need some talent to win the West. Once that has been accomplished, there are butts in the seats for next year, and there is $. Which makes 2010 something we might be able to get through.
by Sinking Away on Jun 14, 2009 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Fixing the DH
I’ve been thinking about a compromise on the DH that might make both leagues happy.
I think the DH should have to leave the game (or move to a position) when the starting pitcher leaves the game. This would take a lot of meaningless at bats away from NL pitchers yet bring all of the interesting strategy decisions to the AL.
That would make neither league happy and things are fine as they are
by Graham MacAree on Jun 14, 2009 11:31 PM PDT up reply actions
People like to bitch but really who cares.
I like the DH mainly because I grew up watching it, NL fans tend to dislike it for the same reason, it comes up twice a year and no one ever really cares all that much.
by Aaron Campeau on Jun 15, 2009 2:27 AM PDT up reply actions
This might be a dumb question but...
Why not pull up Carp/Clement/someone else and put them at 1st and then move Branyan to DH? Is he that big an assett as at defence?
Thug Life
I respectively disagree. They could bench Jr. They could also put him on the DL until Sept.
I think that he knows his worth to M’s this year. I think he realizes that he is an icon, but that means little if he can’t make things happen. He is not making things happen. Yeah, he can get on base, but if we had a DH who could hit for power, Jr. wouldn’t be offended. He knows this is about winning. He wants to win. He would be fine if he could get a WS ring out of this and not have to play. He’s the man now. He was a boy who built Safeco, but he is a man who could bring that WS flag to the stadium. He is well aware of that.
by Sinking Away on Jun 15, 2009 12:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Is there any rule against using an extra hitter in MLB?
I remember in high school ball we would use an extra hitter.
They didn't exactly complain about Player A and Cirillo going on the DL for suckitis.
Granted, Griffey is more high-profile, but I tend to think the MLBPA is fairly lackadasical about it as long as the player doesn’t bitch about it. It gets them another union member!
by eponymous_coward on Jun 15, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Cirillo was on the DL for 25 days, Spiezio for about the same.
A couple weeks is one thing. Three months is entirely another. Be realistic people or you are going to get challenged.
Branyan is fine at 1b. Branyan is fine period.
Carp, Clement, Saunders, etc can be the DH.
by Sinking Away on Jun 15, 2009 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions
I'd rather Saunders be the LF.
With Chavez as our 4th OF and Balentien somewhere else.
I actually bought a Betancourt t-shirt.
by Hopefulmsfan on Jun 15, 2009 1:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Or trade Chavez as part of a package deal if possible.
I actually bought a Betancourt t-shirt.
by Hopefulmsfan on Jun 15, 2009 1:32 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm not for losing
I don’t get the “I hope we lose” mentality this year. Last year I was totally on board with it, because it would hasten the departure of Bavasi, McLaren & co.
But the point of watching your team is to hope they win and win NOW. I hope the M’s go on a ten game winning streak and start making deals to acquire better hitting. Sure, we could trade away Bedard and Washburn and get some nice prospects…or we could trade a couple of nice prospects and get some better hitters to help us go to the playoffs this season.
The problem with this season is that the M’s are neither clearly contenders, nor clearly out of it. I think you’re mistaking a desire for clarity on this point for a desire to detach from the season and begin looking to the future. We have an easy schedule over the next week or so. If we don’t kick some ass it should become clear if we’re sellers or buyers.
I don't know anyone who actively wants to lose
but I would prefer the Mariners blow goats for a few weeks and fade from the race to them being mediocre and staying within theoretical striking distance of a playoff spot without actually being in contention.
by Aaron Campeau on Jun 15, 2009 2:29 AM PDT up reply actions
The thing about mediocre for the rest of the season that bothers me?
It means we have a FO that can’t make a decision. Unless you consider staying the course and hoping for the best a decision. I don’t know, making the playoffs relies pretty heavily on the Rangers failing.
On July 8th, 2008
The As were 48-41 and had a 42.5% shot at the playoffs according to Cool Standings.
On that day, Billy Beane traded Rich Harden and a week later, traded Joe Blanton.
I don't see how being mediocre freezes the FO.
The longer the mediocrity the smaller the chances of getting to the playoffs become.
Well, odds are high that if that happens, we gain ground.
We have 14 games left with The Texas, after all.
by eponymous_coward on Jun 15, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions
My favorite part is that the Rockies have won 11 in a row and they still don't have a prayer of making the playoffs.
The Rise of a Superstar:Justin Upton-.422 wOBA, 21 years old.
Wow
They are pretty behind in the standings. I guess it is comforting to know that even though they swept the Mariners, they Mariners are still closer to the playoffs than the Rockies are.
Actually I take that back
The Rockies are closer in the wild card, the Mariners are closer in the division.
Just wait until they win 22 of 23 again.
That might not work this time however.
I actually bought a Betancourt t-shirt.
by Hopefulmsfan on Jun 15, 2009 1:34 AM PDT up reply actions

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